My Case 580K is unusual in the geometry of the EXTEND a HOE. Not much space for the hydraulic cylinder. Case offers a thumb for their newest hoes, but they aren't quite compatible with the old ones like mine. I haven't priced one as an aftermarket add on & I'd have to alter it extensively to use it. I chose home made. The first one I made was repurposed, using a clam from a worn out log truck. In several ways, the geometry wasn't right. I could move boulders well, but a log had to be at least 2' diameter to grip it. Biggest problem was hydraulic. The cylinder was 3.5" bore 24" stroke "welded T" cylinder. This provided the shortest retracted length.The rod was only 1.5" The wide (4.25" long) welded T at the but of the cylinder would bend, and bend the pin. this caused the rod to bend. I decided to start fresh. I'll move the pivot to the second pin on the dipper. This moves it closer to the bucket pin. I'll change from a 24" stroke 1-1/2" rod to a 20" stroke 1-3/4" rod. It is a clevis cylinder, the pin will be short, less likely to push sideways. New to lathe work, it has been a rough road, throwing aside for other projects a couple pieces of steel. Today it was welding cut pieces. Even that didn't prove simple.
I have a case 580c that im currently in the process of building a thumb for as well. I do not have the extenda hoe option wich makes mounting the thumb a little easier. Ive put probably way more though into this project then I should have but this is what ive come up with so far
My first on this tractor, I thought of as a prototype 14 years ago. I salvaged a clam from a derelict log truck. Half a clam functioned, but wasn't very durable. The shortcoming was the long stroke of the cylinder, the small rod, and the cross tube pin connection at the butt of the cylinder. Several times the pin bent on one side, causing lateral shift & almost immediate fail of the cylinder. Ronsii suggested swivel mounts on the hydraulic cylinder. I wanted to do that, but can't find cylinders compatible with geometry. I've ordered a welded clevis cylinder.
Yours looks seriously rugged. My son has a new to him 580B. He's already talking thumb. He'd be very interested in your plans.
The cylinder I have I believe is like the clevis one you are talking about my pin is 3.5 inches long. The mounts i made will allow the cylinder to swivel 180 if need be. There was many late nights in the garage with cardboard cutouts trying to get the mounts figured out. The mounts measure 1” thick and the pin is 1” as well
I saved 3 plywood templates there were a dozen more partials. I'll admit until now I considered myself good at geometry. I'm overwhelmed at how many obstacles I find to bump into. The extend a hoe has complicated so many things! I found, despite lots of templates that the gland portion of the cylinder bumped the bottom end of the dipper when fully retracted or extended. Easiest solution was to cut the 1" thick, 10" long piece of steel off the dipper where the butt of the cylinder pivots, move it 1/2" & weld it back. Believe it or not, the bucket teeth now bump the thumb when both are fully curled! It'll still get a few final touches, but at present it functions.
I'm curious as to how you are going to plumb your hydraulic system for the thumb operation. I have a fixed thumb on my backhoe and have often thought about converting it to a hydraulic. A solid thumb is nice, but it would be way easier and faster if it were hydraulic.
Ive looked into many different ways to plumb it from manual deverter vlaves to electric ones. I think what im going to try is i have a 8 ton electric over hydraulic dubble action pump and i will use that and put the thumb on its own circuit not sure if it will work but its worth a shot
For anyone that can use a 36" length this thumb sold by Titan is built super strong for the money. https://www.palletforks.com/skid-st...plate-assembly-weld-on-adjustable/122982.html Another member here bought their 32" and was unhappy with it so I can only say this 36" has held up fine on mine.
I hadn't thought of an independent pump like that. I was thinking about plumbing one of these valves into the existing backhoe circuit somehow. I had thought about plumbing one of these valves into the existing backhoe circuit somehow.
I thought about something like that as well the one thing that stopped me from that was all the metal hydraulic lines going into my valve body
Everybody except John Deere you can add another valve in line. In my case I had a third function valve on the front loader, but the grapple had been removed before I bought it. It was just plumbing.
Would it matter if you have an open center or closed center hydraulic system?
Closed center is easier still. Find a port, or add a T in a pressure line. Another T in the return line to the tank. Closed center works like your house water system. You have constant pressure to all valves, the pump maintains pressure by varying volume.
Case can sell you an extra section for your valve. I will explore availability of weldable fittings, or you can switch to flexible JIC if I'm not mistaken. That applies to My son's 580B & my 580K.
You shouldn't need to disturb the steel lines on the valve bank. They usually go a a short distance from it and are fitted to regular hydraulic hoses. I would think simply installing a tee there would work. I never tried it myself. I kinda was waiting to read about someone that has done it.
You didn't specify John Deere. In other machines you get flow through for other functions.You likely are dealing with 22 or more GPM. If your valve isn't big enough it will restrict flow causing problems.
I didn't mention John Deere because your thread is about your 580K and Mr580backhoe's 580C. I was thinking maybe teeing or putting a Y into one of the backhoe supply lines. Not installing it in-line with the supply. That shouldn't have any detrimental effects on the flow. Or would it ?
The only way to tee into one of the other functions is with a diverter valve. The ports would have to be equal to or greater in size on the pass through so as not to limit the normal function. The electric solenoid type is most practical. A manual version would require the hoses to come into the cab. Here is a port size chart that may help in determining valve size required.
Just makes the conversation work to know. I wish I had a John Deere. Plumbing will be different Case or JD.
I feel strongly that diverter valves are not the best way to go. When I was planning a thumb for a JD I explored a diverter. I bought one, but never used it. That tractor didn't stay, I considered that I could select extend a hoe or thumb. After using it a bit, I realized Extend a hoe & thumb were a very important combination. Pick up a big rock, I want it as far from my stabilizers as possible! Loading brush into a truck, or pile I want reach! In an open center system oil flows through a pump in a relatively constant volume. Adding a function involves another valve. This valve flows all of the oil returning to the tank. John Deere tractors use closed center, very different, oil only flows when a circuit is in use. No need to size a valve to the system capacity.
I just threw the diverter option out there because they are relatively inexpensive and simple. You do have to choose a function you can do without while using a diverter. I have one on my little John Deere for the grapple. I have it shared with the bucket curl and activate it with a momentary switch on the loader handle. After a short learning curve it becomes second nature.
So if im following everything correctly my case 580c has a closed center hydraulic system? If so amd i was to plumb another valve in for the thumb I would still need a feed line and a return line correct?
No, I believe the 580C has an open center system. Oil flows from the reservoir to the pump by way of pick up screen pushed by atmospheric pressure. The pump gives pressure, but if nothing hydraulic is in use it flows through the open center valves & filter back to the reservoir. Pressure is low until you operate a function in a valve. This blocks flow, building pressure for a function. Adding a valve is a matter of interrupting one of the lines between the existing valves for loader & hoe. I expect this tractor will have a steering priority valve, or perhaps a separate pump for steering. I believe the 580B has a separate steering pump.
On my 580c it does indeed have a separate system for the steering pump wich i find is a nice design. Makes trouble shooting the steering much easer when theres a problem
Here is an informative thread on a different site in regards to adding a second valve on a Case 580C. Hopefully it is relevant to this thread. The OP of the thread successfully added the valve. But, with a thumb there needs to be a way to relieve the cylinder pressure so that it (the rod) retracts when curling the bucket against it. Without that ,the cylinder rod will bend . https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=case&th=197274
I found from additional research that to prevent the rod from bending a relief valve is commonly installed in-line with the thumb cylinder hose. Quite a few vendors on the internet sell them. I also found that kits are available that can use an existing stabilizer valve to operate the thumb with an electric switch.
Using an existing stabilizer vlave to operate the thumb isn’t a bad idea id be curious to see what one of those kits consist of amd how much
This one looks expensive. Foot switch to operate it. http://www.hctkits.com/backhoe-kits/ This is the one that shows how a stabilizer circuit can be used. ---> https://equipmentland.com/categories/thumbs-grapples/hydraulic-diverter-kits/
The highest flow diverter (selector) valve I've seen has #10 ports. Bailey has one listed for $221. Add some adapters and hoses it should work for around $350 or less. https://www.baileyhydraulics.com/Ch...Series-4-way-3-pos-Tandem-Center-Max-GPM-21_7 Surplus Center has one for $189 but no photo. https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydra...t-DC-SAE-10-Double-Selector-Valve-9-12678.axd
As I said my tractor had a third valve for a clam, or grapple. I can see where brackets had been removed from the loader bucket. This was an extra valve sandwiched into the loader valve. This has relief function. I used on my first thumb a 24" stroke 1-1/2" rod "Welded T" cylinder. First time it bent, a technician in an upstart hydraulic shop convinced me I needed a valve connected to both cylinder ports, and both hydraulic lines to the thumb cylinder. It would divert oil from one side of the piston to the other. Subsequent rods bent. I blame cheap cylinders, the only ones I found that would fit. I believe all was well until a long 3/4" pin would bend. If I didn't notice immediately, stress would bend the rod. In my latest thumb I've uses a 20" stroke1-3/4" welded clevis cylinder. As it stands the bucket cylinder can overpower it, no bent rod.
What I spend for a valve, plumbing will exceed the valve cost.
When you use a diverter valve to control the thumb you could plumb a relief valve of some sort to avoid bending the ram right?
I believe a diverter valve will utilize the existing relief protecting the cylinder it usually protects. The risk being that thumb manufacturers might build a fragile product. the 2500 lb relief provided for a stabilizer might not be enough to protect a thumb cylinder. They sold me an expensive form of relief valve that moved oil from one end of the thumb cylinder to the other. It was heavy, with plumbing; expensive. I then proceeded to lose rods. My latest thumb used the relief built into the tractor, (I believe it is set at 2500 PSIG). No problem with the bucket forcing it to retract.
Bailey's valve is on backorder.
Relief valves for thumbs were pretty well covered by some members on Red Power Magazine. The photo shows what worked for one of the thread participants. https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/107544-hydralic-thumb-releif/
I missed that. The Surplus Center valve is less expensive and they show 36 in stock. I don't think a -10 port is large enough anyway and I can't seem to find a selector valve with larger ports so the idea is probably moot. I have got used to my fixed thumb so I don't think I will ever put a cylinder on it anyway. I have thought countless times about adding a grapple but I have one for my small tractor so I just use it for now.
Your picture is mine. The thing always let the thumb sag. I had to constantly retract the thumb every few minutes. It came back from the hydraulic rebuilder with that plumbing set up leaving little way to mount it. It flopped around all the time, breaking all the hose clamp mounts I ever tried. Rope was the best solution. I finally figured out the pin at the top of the cylinder would bend, causing the 1-1/2" Diameter, 24" stroke rod to bend. I ruined at least two cylinders after that valve was added.
I would have thought that valve would have been mounted to the boom in some way not just left to flop in the breeze. It almost looks like the lines were to short and to rigged.
What i was trying to say before autocorrect got the best of me was in the picture the lines look to short and to stiff wich would make sense as to why any clamp or strap that was placed on it would keep breaking
I'm glad I found your pictures on Red Power , Willie ! It seems strange that in that set-up there was sagging issue. Any chance the piston seals in the cylinder were leaking ? I had to cut up a white oak in my backyard yesterday that toppled over in a recent flood. Prolly a 150 year old tree. I wished all day long my fixed thumb was hydraulic. I spent a lot of time re-positioning the hoe to prevent gouging the lawn with the bucket teeth.
I can't swear. Never thoroughly tested it. The problem manifested itself the day that valve was installed & the cylinder came back from the hydraulic shop. When I asked them about it they gave me a long list of procedures I had to do to prove to them it wasn't the tractor hydraulics. It was really obvious they had no intention of backing their work. The new one doesn't sag, I presume the problem isn't in the tractor hydraulics.
Where or who did you get the vlave from?
A nationwide trash hauler you probably know began in Rutland 20 miles from me. They have an excavating company, & a hydraulic rebuilder. They felt the extra bypass valve was needed. They provided. At a preset pressure it sends oil from one side of the piston to the other. I believe it does so all the time.
This is what I came up with to add auxiliary hydraulics to my 74' Case 580B. This valve is only one direction but they do offer a 2 way valve. Bought this from my local case dealer (they thought me a bit odd) and was supplied by BIC.
May I presume the plate tamper works in line with all the other functions.
Not sure how to answer your question other than yes, it has built in flow control as well as pressure adjustment. Unlike a power beyond the functions down the line remain active as long as you have flow over the auxiliary implement although at a reduced speed. I looked at a lot of options out there and this seemed to be the best one for me. Valve operates from a lever mounted button. This is what I did to get by until I can afford a newer wheel barrow.
I like that. My question is what did you tap into to get the hydraulic flow for the valve?
Priceless ! I back filled the entire foundation of my first house with a wheelbarrow. Young, dumb and poor.
Flow comes into new auxiliary valve first then to outrigger and onto boom, originally fluid would flow directly into outriggers
I had a 1965 Jeep CJ5 with a snowplow. Dad helped some. I had to replace 1 stud & 1 piece of plywood sheathing.
New knowledge: I now own a Case 580K & a John Deere 410C. I gained a hard lesson in John Deere hydraulic plumbing early on after buying this machine. All hydraulic functions are protected by one or more pressure relief valves. In this John Deere, that is set at 3500 PSIG. If one lifts a load at or near capacity close to the tractor, then moves it away using the dipper extension or crowd leverage changes. The 3500 PSIG in the boom cylinder grows sharply. The John Deere has "port relief valves" for 8 hoses on the backhoe. If one fails, replacements are NLA from John Deere. I've searched at length, they are not available elsewhere. Thumbs have a similar issue. If moving the thumb toward the bucket, little risk of overpressure in the thumb circuit. Moving the bucket toward the thumb, the pressure relief valve does nothing. Thumb valve is closed to the port.