hello, im new to the forum and recently came into heavy equipment tech trade as a 1st year apprentice. I was wondering how can you identify say a tier 4 system compared to something without any emission control. for example do tier 4's all feature EGR's, etc...also what are the differences between the different tiers - not emissions wise (carbon content etc,) but mechanically (DPF/EGR/exhaust fluid). Thanks!
The type of equipment installed on an engine to make it emissions compliant can vary with the maker, model, HP, target market, etc. So no, it is not possible to go off of whether it has an EGR or not, etc. The only exception would be exhaust fluid, I don't believe it was ever used on a Tier II and probably only a couple of Tier III. I seem to remember that legally there has to be marking on the engine, but I can't find any examples and I haven't had to deal with it for 2 years. Maybe someone can chime in. ISZ
Most if not all Tier 4 and Interim Tier 4 engines will have some type of diesel particulate filter (DPF) installed. There will be a big muffler looking thing with all kinds of piping and a spark plug at one end. There will also be a nitrous oxide reduction system which will have an exhaust connection somewhere running to the inlet side of the turbo charger. Some manufacturers are using diesel engine fluid which in all the cases I've seen is a urea system. Many engines are using positive crankcase ventilation systems also. You can tell these engines because there is no crankcase breather tube. Many of these systems have some sort of computer control which shows up as extra switches in the cab and usually computer displays telling the operator when the engine has to go into regen mode.
Is anyone coming up with ways to bypass these systems? Surely nobody wants to stop and wait for their engine to burn off all of the soot or whatever it is that it has collected. Surely nobody wants to have to have an extra fuel tank and special pumps on their fuel trailer to carry their ad-blue. Nobody even wants to have to buy ad-blue for that matter. Surely someone knows some tricks?
One way to tell if it is Tier 4i and is a fairly new machine....someone will be working on the engine PlantFitter sez: "Is anyone coming up with ways to bypass these systems?" Since I have learned WAY more about Tier 4i emissions in the last 90 days than I EVER, EVER wanted to know...at this point, you alter anything on a Tier 4i engine in the US and it goes into derate due to EPA regulations. The electronics are pretty tightly integrated into the system. You touch anything and the electronics throw a tampering code and the engine begins the derate or "inducement" phase. Tampering tends to be non recoverable. some of the other codes you can recover from, as long as you don't do it agian within 40 hours of the initial code. Its not a good situation right now......
What I've seen so far is that there haven't been a lot of problems in the off highway stuff like there was in the on highway trucks a few years ago. Operator training has been the biggest bug so far. Some machines you have to wait while the regen goes through the cycle. For others you have to keep working the engine hard and you don't even notice a change. It is when you don't regen when you are supposed to that things get complicated and expensive. The stuff I've heard of and seen is pretty new. I'm betting it will become a real headache when machines get up in the 5,000 to 10,000 hour ranges when engines burn a little more oil and parts start wearing out. I'm also betting that there will be some entrepreneurs that will figure out ways to beat the manufacturers at this game and find ways to get parts cheaper, clean out the traps or maybe find a different way to clean up the emissions.
thanks for all the replies!
Hi , I can say that in DEERE graders you can make difference in engine identification for ex...for epa II serial number is 6068H ,where in epa III & IV are 6090H;with black exhaust in first and chrome in second .but in dozers ,it's different ,they use alphabetic letters like C for II ,D for III & E for IV HOPE THIS DETAILS HELP YOU!!!!!
This is off topic, but is anybody converting their engines from diesel to natural gas? Per BTU, natural gas is about 1/3 the cost of diesel (depending where you are). If the tier 4 emissions equipment that expensive, I'm wondering if anybody is going this route to be emissions compliant? There are some significant downsides when it comes to dealing with cng, but there must be a point where it becomes profitable. Sorry to sidetrack your post stimpe. BTW- welcome to HEF.
joispoi - Many bus fleets around the world are converting to CNG. I haven't seen much construction equipment conversions. Public Transport fleets are the ideal target for those pushing CNG systems. CNG supply infrastructure is the restricting factor, the engine/injection/electronics technology involved in NG conversion seems to be nailed down. We have a local bus fleet of 1170 buses, and the State Govt states it is going to go all-CNG. However, the talk and the walk are different, as always. Of the 1170 buses, only 552 are currently on CNG, and the CNG additions are slow. With a widespread number of suburbs as we have here, the limitations of CNG soon show up, with the need to keep close to the CNG supply infrastructure. As a result, diesel buses will always be needed to service the outer areas of the city, where CNG supply is not available. The first CNG bus was introduced into the bus fleet here in 1996, and there do not seem to be any major long term problems. However, the integration of CNG into the varying emission standards must be a nightmare. We have buses that are on Euro 3, Euro 4, and Euro 5 emission standards - and Euro 6 is not far off. All of these systems require varying amounts of modification to fit the CNG modifications. The total changeover to CNG won't happen until we have CNG supply infrastructure that is the equivalent of fossil fuel supply infrastructure.
There is a post in trucks talking about going to CNG. Also re the tier 4 motor. Their is a plate that list the serial number.HP date of manufactor also a family name. This will tell you what tier it is and what year it complies with. You can also call the dealer with that number and they will tell you. We are dealing with this CARB bulls*** here in Ca big time.
I know a lot of trucks and buses are running cng. I guess it's still too much of a PIA to setup on a machine, though. I thought maybe with the natural gas boom going on, there might be some outfits that were taking advantage of a cheap, although cumbersome fuel source.
With the Tier 4 final, if there is an active code for the engine you will only have 4 hour of run time before it shuts down, so you better be good at troubleshooting. If that same code comes back within 7 days, it will also shut down. We have found a few ways to circumnavigate some things for troubleshooting.
Hi PlantFitter Interesting to hear about these anti-tamper mechanisms. Where did you hear of this and how do you know? Just out of interest, I know certain engine OEMs who de-rate there engines to sell them on to non emission compliant countries.
I agree OzDozer Getting a CNG/LNG supply to off highway sites, such as construction or extraction operations poses a problem. In countries like your Australia, even more so. Best future option in Australis would be solar energy for hydrogen plant - but way too expensive and fuel cell technology immature as yet. Major range issues of course. On-road is different. Countries with piped natural gas infrastructure can tap off gas at strategic points in road network for CNG filling stations. (Can also compress CNG to LNG - but expensive). In UK where I live this is becoming more prevalent. Investment for infrastructure and research is here and UK truck OEMs starting to supply gas trucks. Also renewable fuel (in the form of bio-gas) can be injected and blended into national gas grid. Germany leading the way, but also look at Italy for supply (Pakistan largest user - by number of gas vehicles) along with countries in Latin America.
Hi Briev7 Can you tell us a little more about the difference between the black and chrome exhaust, if you get the chance please?
Generally there is an Emissions Plate/Label on the engine stating to which EPA TIER the particular engine is certified regarding emissions.