Hi folks, I have questions about tier 4 final. I am seeing alot of used equipment show up in auctions here that came from California. All of them have older engines lower than tier 4. Some people are guessing that, because of the tier 4 regulations, older machines are getting phased out, and passed along to Colorado and points beyond. I know that the west coast is ahead of us by a few years with most things like this, but I don't understand why new emissions regulations for new engines would create a fat used machine market. Tier 4, as far as I know, has been in partial enforcement since 2013 and full enforcement since 2015, and it only applies to new engines. So, why would a skid steer, for instance, that was made in 2002 suddenly be worth less than "normal" and passed on to other states for sale? is there something else happening that makes non tier 4 final engines no longer "qualified" to perform work out in CA? What am I missing?
They are making us put big red stickers like license plates on the sides of machines and the spooks will go to job sites with binoculars and make sure no machine is running that does not fit into some complicated formula that most of them have to be tier 4 final. They are phasing out the ability to operate old machines fast.
Oh, so the state or whoever can jump in and say "your machines (or so many of them) have to be tier 4 compliant to be on this job site", even though it's legal to run older machines according to the Federal regulations? That would certainly explain it. I wonder what the motivation to do that is. Why would they care as long as it's legal, and who is actually mandating that? It has to be related to money somehow. I spoke to a concrete pump manufacturer yesterday, talking about setting up a dealership for them, and he said something wierd. He said "tier 4 is coming to Colorado". I didn't understand what he meant at that time because I thought it was like that already, and it was one of those things that occur to you later and you wonder wth he was talking about. Maybe that's what he meant. That is going to hose up alot of my customers. I need to get out in front of this.
Yup, eventually all tier 4 and low rolling resistance tires for trucks. Peruse this https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw3BqwLeGjfQf3OqjxzV-SBN As of today, you cannot even register a 1995 or older truck in CA with out an updated (2010 or newer compliant) engine.
It all depends on how the state set the rules federal everything made now is their 4 final in az we have seen a lot of tier 3 and older come to auction from California currently az doesnt have any rules on it so what the fed says goes That may change tho people are moving here by the bus load from California to get away from the high regulation and high taxes unfortunately they are starting to vote people in that are of the same mindset as what has made California what it is I would imagine Colorado is in a similar situation
Yes, get out in front of it. That is what is happening. The government here is out of control, they want to have their paws in everything. We had to replace all trucks early and equipment is not too far behind. It is not the politicians doing this directly. They would rather smoke cigars and dine in fancy restaurants with members of the club. They appoint bureaucrats to think this stuff up. Some they are really good at thinking it up too. You can vote the politicians out but the bureaucrats remain. Ever increasing their salaries and the junk they saddle us with. As you stated, it really hurt a lot of little companies. Especially since it hit around baby boomer retirement time. They just closed up shop rather than pass it on to the next generation. You are correct there is always money involved. The truck, equipment, and engine manufacturers got to sell a lot of new stuff to replace stuff that wasn't broken. They would otherwise have had to wait for attrition to sell it.
It goes further than that, insurance companies want to see a trucking company with newer equipment for OTR. And some large shippers want to see late model equipment. One big game. A tractor or trailer in our fleet that's 4 years old is old for us. 90% of our tractors are 2015 and newer. Truck Shop
its happing every where, they move out of California to get away from all of the stupid and then start recreating the stupid where they land and we all pay in the end
I'm going to need a big box of red decals .LOL ! All BS aside …. What happens if you don't install the red stickers on the machine ?
That photo will become more common as of Nov 18, 2018. Caught with non compliant vehicle, instant out of operation and start of $1,000 to $10,000 fine per day until the vehicle is replaced by 2010 or newer vehicle to stop fines. Info from the horses mouth @ CARB Compliance Class yesterday hosted @ Quinn Riverside, CA. CARB's rep was Doug Shepard (former Cat dealer LA owner's family) one of 4 advisors to CARB representing the industries> on-off road. Doug's advise, 'anyone busted, have Tow Truck take the vehicle directly to a scrap yard, open the hood...knock hole in cylinder block. Take photos to sent to CARB as proof the vehicle is no longer used and out-of-service. Buy Cat for spare parts machine: Still requires registration, accurate records keeping (photos helpful) and yearly reporting...ditto On-Road vehicles. Another 1-of-4 CARB advisers is the owner of the Fresno based company that sued CARB along with the Calif Trucking Association resulting in the reversing of the CARB amended regulations 2014 allowing 'flex in options' for smaller fleets/owner operators. Annual 'low mileage 5,000 of less' has been rescinded back to 1,000 of less miles per year. Court ruled CARB exceeded their authority (trying to help the little guys) Jan 2018. CARB is still working on revised written letter and website details. GOV can't do a ***** thing without a total C-Fu'K Okay you have on-road vehicle flexed in using 5,000 miles or less, next registration/reporting to re-tag. You'll exceed the reverted to 1,000 miles or less! CARB is working on and allowing a grandfathered, it is okay you can start over @ next DMV-re-tag date, great! PROBLEM (just happened a buddy 2 months ago). You pay DMV tag fees like yesteryear, then 2-3 weeks later receive a letter from CARB informing you that mileage has changed back to 1,000 miles per year of less. THAT CHANGE IS LIKE, you can't use the vehicle anymore, LOL DMV and CARB do not work together DMV collects fees (need $$$ for Cali social welfare programs to support %^&** welcome all) Ask DMV employee, 'give me the money back'...request met with a big smile and laughter by C-word! Her reply, 'you'll have to send a request to franchise tax board', some of the fees you paid have gone over the statue of limitation of 3yrs. Personally I have been fined over $20thou just to throw vehicles away, MY FAULT for not being pro-active, i.e. to busy. Tier1,2,3 and 4 can be kept in a fleet;fleets have-to meet annual fleet average emissions target 12 µg/m3. Selling Tier1,2, or 3 engine machines: Those engines create more regulated emissions particles per HP. So it is advantageous to sell those early engine vehicles to meet CARB req'd target. Life goes on, your a member of the 'rat's race' like it or not.
Well those rules sure keep the out of state competition away that's for sure
Californians - they like cancer! They already started messing up Texas! Not long ago talked to general manager of one of national hydraulic store chains. He was born, raised and until 2 years ago lived and worked in Austin TX. He said ever since Californians started moving in by the train loads - the zoning, water, and environmental laws changed unbelievable! And becoming unbearable! And that’s in freedom loving Texas! Where Houston have no zoning laws whatsoever! One question though! Do they in truth do not understand what kind of way of thinking ruined the state they just escaped?
Not just California... The Northeast refugees come South and recreate stupid. NC is turning purple. First in the cities, then the suburbs... as they flee the Sh!thole conditions, they just recreated. It's all Willis Haviland Carrier's fault. Without him, the South would still be hot, humid and miserable.
I think I will agree with you! I have friends living in Charlotte and Raleigh, and besides political changes there the housing market gets expensive too!
Certainly there is a need for something, but CA obviously has taken things a bit far. I don't work on road tractors, but some of the stuff I've read here is pretty *** up. My customers are just going to have to prepare, that's all. The best thing I can do is try to prepare them ahead of time. If CARB like BS is coming my way, and it probably is, they need to know. Most of my engines are under 100 HP, usually 4 cyl, Deutz, Hatz, Cummins, Perkins, even an occasional JD or Yanmar. Maybe some of those can be brought into tier 4 compliance, I have no idea. I got to figure out who to talk to about that.
I don’t know how it is up there in Carolinas but here on Alabama’s Gulf Coast, it is still pretty much miserable summer time! Even with ACs!
Start with Colorado >diesel emissions regulations search EPA General Guides https://www.epa.gov/emission-standards-reference-guide I would like to see another 25 million Californians leave, please go back to where you came from!
A true Californian won't put up with it .
I shouldn’t call all Californians that, I’m for instance understand the difference between southern and northern parts of the state. I know about “Jefferson state”, and even difference between city dwellers and rural people. But fact is: when critical mass of people who moved from California somewhere starting to vote for laws, and vote in the politicians - they tend to recreate the political climate they used to live in. The most important question is: do they understand that that political climate is the reason why they had to flee California in the first place? And another thing, the people who lived in the places they moved to for generations - sure as hell, death and taxes don’t like the changes new comers brought in!
Might as well get used to the fact that Diesels, and antique vehicles are no longer wanted In this country. The greenies have seen to that. When I drive my vintage trucks I used to get thumbs up and waves. Now I get dirty looks and one finger salutes for belching smoke and slowing These idiots down. Tom
I've now spoken to reps at Hatz, Deutz and Perkins, and they all say the same thing. That even if the engine was purchased as a Tier 4 interim, there is no way to make it T4 final compliant. I wonder if that's BS. I also wonder about certification. Even if I was able to convert any of those engines, how would I certify it? I'm just a joe blow with a shop. It sounds like they got us by the shorts and there's nothing anyone can do. It looks like it's a function of governmental overreach, political extremism, corporate greed, and just a touch about the environment. This is frustrating **. This is gonna shut down a lot of "little guys" and me, in the process. I doubt the way CA is enforcing the regs will end up coming our way, as it is out there, but I'm sure it's gonna get worse before it gets better.
T4i in the smaller engines is nothing but T3 which is pretty much the same as T2 which was basically nothing. Sometimes they used a little better injection system and changed DI engines to PC but not much really. It is a whole different cylinder head and management system, see below: T4 final is full electronics that punish you and slow/stop the engine if anything is starting to go wrong, HPCR injectors that you are not allowed to change without a dealer laptop for trim codes, EGR, and exhaust aftertreatment which if you are lucky is only DOC (catalyst) but often consists of DPF, SCR (urea) and I may be forgetting one or two items....
Have your customers do research before they buy anything with a Tier 4 diesel engine! One is not the same as another. In the sizes I am accustomed to, ~2-4 liter range, Kubota and Isuzu have some that only have DOC, not too scary, because they are able to make the engine burn clean enough in-cylinder. Last I looked, JD has all the aftertreatment options installed, $$$$$ and ongoing repairs and urea. Hatz seems to be committed to cleaning up too with DOC only, but no matter who you pick it is always going to be full electronics, injectors and EGR.
I looked at the question of modifying older engines to newer specs back in 1999 for a gray market dealer here in the northwest. The final disposition from that research was that only manufacturer's could submit engines for certification. Engines that had the same base build such as pistons, heads, fuel systems, air intake and exhaust systems could have the components added that would in essence have made a clone of the US intended engine. Even so the engine would not be allowed without it being tested and certified by a manufacturer. The identification tag required to allow the engine could only be supplied by the manufacturer. Needless to say, none of the manufacturers I contacted would say anything other than hell no!
Is there any reason you folk can't become certified in your state to make the mods required? Surely your local EPA have "inspectors" who must have had some training, certification, etc to have some legal credence so IMHO allowing others to become a certified repairer or installer should follow me thinks.
I went here, https://www.continentalengines.com/services Which has a link to here http://www.enginesolutions.com And they certainly do EPA certified Tier4 repowers. And, I'm certain that there are many more.
Having seen what happened when they tried to retrofit trucks with aftermarket DPF. There is no way I would want to be involved with that. Taking out an old engine and replacing it with a whole new engine is fine. But not attempting to treat old dirty exhaust, it just will never work. Besides that fact we have been on Tier 4 for years now. Any old < Tier 3 stuff is starting to get old and decrepit anyway.
Mr. TVA TROLL you're way off topic. You do not understand >Most people leaving Calif are not leaving because of Political Climate. High property valves>caused by people moving into Calif and cost of living is the #1 reason people leave. More people move into Calif than leave, those newbies create a strain on the 'socialist welfare programs', public education, medical service, transportation, housing demand etc. The same as any other State. EXACTLY, Visit but do not stay! TVA, you're in S.E. Texas?; don't worry Californians don't like living in areas with ****** climate. Rural areas destroyed by housing demand. Video is fly over of 'The Badlands' area. 35million yd 5.5 year dirt job.
First of all I’m not a troll! Second: I am off topic! But I think a lot of people wish the same what I wish - that all the infected by liberalism ( mental disorder according by popular talk show host ), general stupidity residents of your beloved and bankrupt California would stay exactly where they are, together with their “progressive” ideas and way of life! And if they move somewhere, please - accept the way of life and customs of people who lived there before they came! And last point: I lived in Seattle area for two decades, and have friends and relatives all over US - so don’t tell me who moves where! And high taxes is residents of California doing to them selves, as surprisingly last time I checked there was still free elections in that state! Don’t bother answering - I’m done being “off topic”!
Yep BV, Add on DPFs don't work to good. And the cost for on-road truck $10-18thou pays over 50% of the cost to replace the truck (class 6,7) with a 2010 or newer rig. DPFs installed on non-Tier or Tier1 engines, you're adding a devise that creates exhaust backpressure, stated in the manufactures' literature. Regens events are increased by an engines oil consumption rate and average exhaust gas temp. Repowering class6,7 rigs IMO is not practical time-wise, i.e time is money. Used market, most cab-chassis available are 250 inch WB> plus, flat-bed or reefer-dry van rigs. OEM distance; exhaust outlet (600 degrees) to centerline of rear axle is 36 inches. Finished W900 to 2013 337 mech bed swap 2.5 weeks age. Exhaust outlet is 28 inches for rear axle CL, used elbow to direct hot exhaust gases toward the ground. I'll find out if that causes problems with tire temps, maxi-can or diff. If there are problems, next cab-chassis upgrade will use dimensions like the cartoon below. 188WB typical for Cab-to-axle 120 inches. requires 224 inch wheel base. Mech bed 39 inch extended welder deck and additional add on side compartments. Calif Off-road Tier3 repowers are preferred, Tier3 can stay in fleets forever if fleet average target is meet annually. Tier3 repowers avoid more and more electronic problems to contend with and Tier4 problems, KISS
You see guys - in my view if these new devices would even work OK and wouldn’t give so much headaches, downtime and waste of money: I would say “so be it”! But all the problems with all the things I listed above give so much grief and aggravation! Tell you honestly I know whole lot of OTR truck owners who bought little device called “emulator”, cut the DPFs out, and now they cut the big chunk of problems they were having with their trucks before! There’s enough troubles with injectors/sleeves and even cylinder heads on D13-D16, and don’t even get me started on whole injection pump/crankshaft and premature wear of piston/ring group on earlier X15s. Few months ego I saw an owner operator, at Missoula Freightliner -literally crying because it was his fourth visit to a dealer with the emission problems, each costs him around $6000, and he just been told that he needs new shutdown manifold at $4200, and about the same in labor. And that’s not all, there’s might be some more problems! He was sole bread winner for his family and that constantly derating piece of junk was only way he was providing for his family! And on top of that the company that he was leased to refused to extend credit to him to fix that truck! I don’t think it would be much different with small excavation owner-operator Understand me correctly! I’m not for “smoking up the sky”, but IMHO- doing once a year “snap test” is good enough in my book! That’s what we used to have before all of this government imposed calamity that BTW started from California!!!
I have lived here all my life. Never moved more than 20 minutes from the same spot. I have seen the political climate change from something resembling sanity to this garbage which is mostly akin to Stalinism. Sorry but it has to be said. There is NO REASON little Jones Construction needs to paint a red decal and register with "the man" their 20 HP Kubota tractor that is used 10 minutes to dig out a piece of cracked concrete from a driveway. Yes, I saw that today. In a county that is full of empty space. The skies here have been clear for 30 years. The small cam Cummins and green leakers have been gone from old age long ago. The Tier 1 and Tier 2 equivalent trucks would have been mostly gone by now anyway from old age. But this awful accelerated replacement program was enforced and put a lot of little guys under. Think of this. If the 2007/2010+ trucks were not mandated to be phased in in California at the accelerated rate, the little guys would never have bought them, rebuilding for one more cycle, and the big guys would have slammed the manufacturers/government against the wall to get the engines better or get the standards relaxed to reasonability. But follow the money, the big guys won, the little guys got forced out, the public guaranteed a bunch of grants/loans and the manufacturers got to sell thousands of units ahead of schedule.
BV, ditto I don't disagree with your points. I have lived here most of my life, exception military service 66-68 and extended European stays. Moved 15 minutes from hometown. Stalinism = Socialism types move (historical trend and current) west in the 60s to join our native anti-war, anti-establishment leftist hippy types. 60s kids went on to become teachers and professors and indoctrinate more youngsters' minds (nation wide). Big difference between Stalin types of course our Socialism types like Capitalism, i.e. making money. But they want to give our earned money away (taxes) for all of the social welfare programs >HC, Obama. Of course you're aware. Local air quality has improved to 1990 levels. Chatting with four friends (equip mech's) last week who moved to Calif from Oklahoma 89. Nobody disagrees that the emissions reg's are not necessary. Calif 25Hp or over reg requirement is typical, give an inch-by the feds-take a mile. Definitely hurts the little guys. We're 2 people = 2 votes Off topic URLs / IMO, Socialism's driver worldwide....not difficult to connect dots Part 1 https://www.avoiceformen.com/gynoce...ties-and-the-feminist-zero-sum-game-part-one/ Part 2 https://www.avoiceformen.com/gynoce...ties-and-the-feminist-zero-sum-game-part-two/
Let me clarify what I meant by Stalinism: not all of Stalins proposals in their totality but things like registration of every tractor that works on a private site in the entire state. And forcing most not to use them any more. Cutting out small owner operators. Thus driving up the cost to the homeowner to get anything done on his property. It has reached completely unsustainable levels. I am only able to live here by generous help by the prior generation. I see how young people struggle to pull ahead despite being diligent. I know a lot of good people who have moved away within the past 2 years. More seem on the edge. Financial advisors tell people that it is no question a bad idea to stay here when they retire except for kids/grandkids. We'll see but I am not optimistic in the short or medium term at this point.
All you have to do Birken is to get a governor with the gonads to reverse some or all of this crap
I won't comment on the politics, but this cartoon is kinda how I feel about the sh!tuation... https://goo.gl/images/3hmH5C https://goo.gl/images/xdLY53
David Freiburger for Governor of California . He mentioned a " Car Crush " scam at 2:25 from where the Camaro got it's name . Finnegan for Lieutenant Governor … 4:40 …. " Driving an old hotrod … That's like pizza & sex , even when it's bad it's still good. " LOL !
Politics New gov Gavin Newsom's ex-wife Kimberly Guilfoyle, who until recently worked for Fox News is dating Trump Jr. Um, she's getting conservative with the Hoe
yet we never hear about democrats dating/married to the main stream media... Its an incestuous swamp...
Washington DC cluster f's vary, EPA surprise, 'Cleaner Trucks Initiative' Specifics about what the program, dubbed the Cleaner Trucks Initiative, were sparse, but EPA says it intends to pursue a rulemaking to update regulations surrounding emissions of the greenhouse gas nitrous oxide (NOx). The rule will call for further reduction of NOx emissions , EPA said. 1 Ref: https://www.ccjdigital.com/epas-new...ms-for-national-uniformity-of-emissions-regs/
I was at a conference last year where an economist spoke. One of the things he brought out was that the Trump administration would roll back the current regulations on on and off highway diesel engines. While there are no specifics in the article it kind of sounds like a snow job. I don't expect much of anything changing until after the next presidential election.
Most modern day fairy tales don't start with once upon a time, they begin with when I get elected ...
Agree, snow job to appease Dem House members, environmentalist etc; 'we're working on new regulations'. From the Horses' mouth
Great more stupidity