Hello all. Havent been on here much since I brought my first skid last year ( a 753 with over 3000 hrs). Am currently working up to 12 hours a day and still not keeping up, am having a forced weekend off due to the wife, farthers day tomorrow and all that. We we started it was our plan to look at upgrading around this time if things where going well and have to say that they are. I have put my rates up 3 times, and am having to turn work away. Upgrade options. About a month ago I had a quick play in a new cat 323 B series 2, very nice, and have since got the quote $60,000 plus tax. This incudes cab and air. Then had a bobcat 185 out on site for a play also with cab etc and joystick controls. I didnt feel as home in the 185 as i did in the cat and while not having driven with a joystick before the cat, it seemed almost normal in the cat but a bit strage in the bobcat. Am getting the cat out on site this week to have a good look and will make up my mind then. Was leaning towards the 185 on price as it was $54,000 plus tax however the finiance that cat do means it all works out about the same per week. Other things. like the open floor of the cat, felt like I had no where to put my feet in the 185. ( I guess they expect most to still have the pedals) Grease points on the cat are much easier to get too, a big thing when you have to grease your machine 2x a day 6 days a week, 50 weeks a year. But either way should have a new skid in about a month, just dont know if its going to be yellow or white. cheers
G'day xrlentau6, You were just starting out when I found the forum and it looks like things are working out well for you. There is obviously plenty of work around town and I know when you are busy and especially if you are working around the weather, weekends are a PITA. It was like that with me, but after thirty years of contracting, I actually look forward to the weekends these days, mind you I didn't get too many the first half of this year. I can't comment on skid steers because I have no experience with them, but I hope the work keeps coming, you must be doing something right. Rn'R.
I've been running Cat skidloaders for about five years now, have pretty much accepted that they're decent machines. A week or so ago I had to run a borrowed Bobcat. It was a new machine, an S-series something, and I was fairly impressed with it. It had a switch to change from foot pedal control to Case style control, I thought that was pretty slick. But I've come to the conclusion that all newer machines have been "idiotized", meaning any idiot can run them. Every machine will have it's strengths and weaknesses, but when it all boils down, they're pretty much all the same any more. The 1845C Case will never be matched, but who wants to run them rattley old beasts when you can sit in clean, air conditioned comfort?
I'm partial to Bobcat, but here's my two cents: I would not buy a new SJC (Joystick) or ACS (Selectable Hand/Foot Control) machine unless I also bought extended warranty and planned to trade in for new again when the warranty expired, repeatedly. Those systems lock you in to the dealer's service department and his rates and fees FOREVER......I challenge someone from Bobcat to come on here and tell me that it is not their intent to make it so. It may not bother you, but it seems that most folks on this forum like to keep a machine well past its warranty period and are interested in figuring out how to do their own repairs. If you are the type of owner who likes to tinker with his own stuff, or have a less expensive independent shop do your repairs, Bobcat will disappoint you, because their required diagnostic equipment and software is not available, for any price. It's ridiculous how they make a service manual available but won't make available the data or tools to successfully complete a good deal of the tasks therein. Used straight drive stick and mechanical foot pedal machines are the most sought after by knowlegeable used-Bobcat seekers because they know that such a machine probably won't bankrupt them in the event of a failure like a pump or drive motor, and they don't HAVE to call the dealer if their hydraulics quit. Your average tech could figure out and work on CAT's pilot controls. If all you're ever planning on doing is changing the oil or swapping tires, though, Bobcat is a good machine.
xrlentau6: At the end of the day its you that has to live with it. But I'd be leaning towards the dealer with the best service record and consider parts. I know Bobcat owners down here who have been charged air freight from the US for parts that are warranty work!. Work that one out. You can't beat Cat for parts availability in this country. Also, have you considered any attachment options with the deal. When I bought my 2nd Cat I basically got the 4 in 1 bucket thrown into the deal for nix.......had I known how good that tool was I would have gladly paid.
Bobcat chose to go down the path of lots of electronic wizardary in their machines, probably much to the dissapointment of a good share of their customer base. BC's reliability has been inversely proportional to the rise in the use of electronics in their machines. They have a lot electronic Bling but that doesn't get work done. It is mostly just eye candy. Sometimes less is more.
KSSS, You are so right, and it really irks me! Since I started on Bobcats in 1990, they always seemed to hold a top place for the guy who owned one or two machines, and was ready and willing to keep his own stuff in order. I always talked how Bobcat was the best skid steer, how they had the most R&D time and dinero into it, and how since skid steers and mini-excavators were what Bobcat did, the dealers were willing to jump on customer issues fast, opposed to big-iron dealers whose skid steers were more of a sideline and therefore low-priority. All that is changing with Bobcat. There are less mom-and-pop dealers because you've got to have bigger infrastructure for service, and the dealers just about have a total lock on service. They have sold out their traditional customer base for the big fast bucks. When tier 4 requirements finally hit, they will integrate engine electronics into their proprietary system and anyone who owns one of those better buy new, and by new, and buy new, and used will go to the crusher. The market is ripening for a reliable, simple machine without the bells and whistles, like a toughed-up 743 or scat-trak. It may have to have tier 4 electronics, but I guess this common rail deal is supposed to be available to all. Maybe it already exists, but I've had my head so far up Bobcat's buttocks for so long, I need to pull out and wipe my eyes. It's sad, though. I really like Bobcat's center chaincase and cooling system. A design using those systems, in different sizes, with Cummins common rail engines.........oh well, I'm ranting and hijacking the thread!......=)
I understand what you say about bobcats joysticks, but all in all they work great. If they were so bad why do CAT now offer it on there machines??? It is the future and as always bobcat is pushing the boundries of what should be done with a skidsteer. Everybody is going to go this way because it allows for better adjustment of the machine drive system with there speed controll. Which no std joystick system can do other then an elec over hyd system. And unlike CAT who have an anti work system to protect there under size chain case. bobcat will let you dig your self into the ground if you feel it necessary. Your machine tells you enough already, most ppl don't need to be told how to work also. Just my 2 cents worth.
Welcome to the Heavy Equipment Forums. Sounds a little like you may have a vested interest in the product???:beatsme I don't know about an "Anti-Work" system...thats a new one on me and I'm on my 4th Cat skid. I seem to have absolutley no problem burying the little beggar down to the belly plate when the mood requires Certainly a couple of S185 owners whom I compete with freely admit our 226's will go many places they wouldn't even attempt to go in a Bobcat for lack of grunt. Whatever turns your crank I suppose.
tacbob-I fully understand your point of view, and I agree to a point. Joystick control is indeed the future, but there are different ways to get there. CAT uses pilot controls, and it works well. It is possible to repair it with common mechanic's tools, typical familiarity with electrical, hydraulic and hydrostatic systems and basic information like a schematic. A pilot-controlled hydrostatic pump is basically your standard pump with a pilot servo stoking the swashplate instead of a manual lever. So you've basically got a pressure-reducing setup, going to the pilot valves on your joysticks, going to the swash servos on your pumps, for a standard pilot-control system. In previous conversations, I was told that CAT is a little more complex than that, because one pump drives both motors through some kind of splitter, which sounds odd, but it came from an odd source. Either way, a look at a schematic would clarify that issue for me. The above listed components, although they add expense, are not mysterious. Bobcat, on the other hand, takes your standard pump, adds pilot servos like above, then adds electrically-controlled valves to run the servos. The incoming signal is generated by a computer or controller. The input to that controller comes from complex electronics in the handle. Additionally the controller needs input from motor-speed and swash-angle sensors on later units, all connected by many feet of harness. All of these components are expensive and NON-SERVICEABLE. I can call my local CAT product support rep and he'll fax me a schematic or service manual pages real quick. Even though he knows who I am and what I do, he knows his assistance is generating parts sales and promoting good faith. My experience leads me to believe that this is a CAT as well as local dealership philosophy. Bobcat's system requires software and hardware not available to the general public. A failure in any of the components listed above necessitates not only component replacement, but updating and calibrating with a computer, software and interface. There are many SJC machines in the field for which the components are no longer available, that is, the initial customer was basically a Beta-tester of a system with components that were later deemed incompetent. Handles are a good example. A particuarly astute owner may be able, referencing his service codes, to determine that he has a bad handle, which is easily removed, ordered, and installed. Back in business? No. He then calls in and finds out he has to get a complete kit with two new handles and a special adapter harness, then the software needs to be installed, udated and calibrated. If it's in the woods, it's dealer-only field service. It's all good if you're still under warranty and you can handle the down-time. If not, it's all bad. I don't think a lot of folks on here are the types who own 10 or 12 newer Bobcats, with his own maintenance facilities and mechanics, but even that type of customer would get laughed at were he to want to purchase the tools and software needed to unshackle himself from dealer service. I'm telling you guys--I worked as a Bobcat tech for a long time, and I was there at the beginning with G-series, AHC, ACS, AWS, and SJC. I have seen Bobcat do extraordinary things when it came to making folks happy with their machine failures, but in retrospect, it seems like it was a set-up for getting it all back later, and more. Bobcat is cutting-edge, but the underlying motivation has shifted from providing a solid, reliable, easily-maintained machine to one of basic corporate greed, IMO. Where they before profited from selling 100 good machines on reputation, they now sell 10 and make 10 times more from a customer's maintenance of initial investment. The higher initial investment is a motivator to keep spending big-bucks to keep it going. I'm sorry for this long-winded rant, but I again challenge someone from Bobcat to convince me that this is not their philosophy. Until then, my philosophy is BUY A NEW OR LATE-MODEL BOBCAT AT YOUR OWN FINANCIAL PERIL.
Shane Very interesting and informative post.I think the value of my 763C just went up a couple of thousand dollars at least to me. Something to be said for the K.S.S.S way of thinking. Proprietary electrics are just scary.The manufacturers want to sell machines so making repairs expensive helps to keep the ball rolling. Simple and cheap to repair means no new sales.
The Bobcat E/H system is not the same system that CAT used on their C series machines. The BII series of CAT machines is still pilot and not E/H. I will commend BC for not using a anti-stall/anti-work mode like CAT and Komatsu. The issues with the C series machines are not the same issues as BC's in their E/H system. I agree this is where everything will go. The question is are these systems ready for prime time, BC has reliablity issues and user issues that have not been resolved for years now, which surprises me actually. The CAT E/H has operating issues to be certain, I don't know that any reliability issues have surfaced yet. I am sure they will continue to improve. Deere has released their E/H machines it will be interesting to start hearing from owners on what they think of this system. E/H does give much more options as far as tweaking of the operating system than does any other control system, but this "operate by wire" in a skid steer will test the system to be sure. There is probably no more abused piece of equipment on a jobsite than a skid steer.
Squizzy246B The anti work feature that I was talking about I had happen to me when i tried to put one up on our beavertail truck, and it wouldn't go up with out being on full revs. Yes my ramps are very steep but a bobcat will just idle up. shane I understand what you say about bobcat, they did have some issues at the start but now with the new K series I have heard of great success with them and very few problems. nobull1 Don't think that bobcat just makes joystick machines, the std controls are great, and unlike your 763 They have less wiring in them and little worries. KSSS Sorry I should have stated it as there option for EH for CAT. Bobcat on the other hand people talk about older machines having problems, that is true but I have heard of very few problems with the new K series. There latest range has been almost trouble free, and will only get better. I also agree about the abuse that a skid steer gets they all to an incredible job.
quick update, ( and thanks for the repleys. Have got the cat coming out on site in the morning and then of to the bobcat dearler on saturday to play in a S205 that works out cheaper than the cat 232. Local bobcat dealer here has been very good so far. Plan is to be only keeping the machine for no more than 2 years and then trade it again so am hoping wont have to many problems in that time. As fo doing any work on it, sorry thats the golf days. Happy to clean the thing and grease it, but any service work some one else can do. Spend to much time in the seat to then spend time under the machine. No offence to those who know there way around the machine, I dont and dont want to learn so leave it to those who do. Either way will be having a sleep on things on the weekend and then siging up on monday if all goes well, even the wife agrees. Squizzy, 4in1 is a must, not sure which way to go though am thinking about getting one with a smooth edge and then an second hand bucket with teeth for digging during the summer in the clay out here. Just find it hard to level with the teeth ( I mean I do it just not as quickly as I would like). Am looking at other options as well eg box blades etc. cheers all.
I assume you refer to the Anti-Stall system:beatsme which really only comes into effect when engine RPM drops below idle under very heavy load. There are hundreds of Cat skids out there,going up and down ramps everyday. Mine are very steep onto trucks with 22.5" rubber and they don't need full power and they just don't stall. It would seem to me you are whitewashing a brand on the basis of your experience with one machine, which sounds like it had problems. If I went up my ramps at full power I'd be needing a new cab on the truck everyday! So I'm still in the dark on this anti-work system For the record I like my Cat skids but I also own a Yanmar machine and we are looking at Kobelco, Yanmar ,Takeuchi and Kubota for a new machine in this financial year. I have said a number of times on this forum that I don't think that Cat makes the "best" skid steer. But I like my service and parts. If one of my two machines or my truck are down then I'm in serious trouble. I also like serviceability and simplicity. In skids this is what Cat provides me way out in the Wild West. I trade my skids every 2 years, or 2000 hrs, whichever comes first and have had excellent re-sale value. Cat financial does help with better than the bank for shortfall and its very cheap operating by the time the books are done.
We need teeth less than you do so I only have them on my rake. I also use my GP bucket (no teeth) for concrete quite a bit. A contractor whom we work with does earthworks and ashphalt. His Case 75 & 95XT machines and uses rippers like this for working up carparks: http://www.earthmoving.com.au/skidsaver.htm I actually find my rake better than both my buckets for levelling, despite the teeth. But this is probably because it is a foot wider than my buckets. Deas Plant posted some pics hereabouts of his "Grab in the 4in1" screed, levelling box. Mostly, when it comes to finish levels I get out of the machine and tell my nephew to do it....he needs the practice ...but I usually grab a pice of 4x2, steel or whatever in the 4in1 and that helps out....a lot. I can't remember if I told you before but I posted pics of my stuff here: Also, one more note while you are thinking/talking dealers. Don't forget to look at what tyres are in the deal. I am running the newer Dunlop 16.5 x 12. They are a very tall profile and give a little extra clearance...as well as being tough as old boots. Most of the time I'm only running 22psi and much less in the really soft stuff.
one of the bobcat reps here in sydney commented to me that in nsw they almost always sell new with a 4 in 1 with teeth, 4 in 1 no teeth in qld and a gp bucket in wa. he didn't comment on sa or mexico. i'm rather curious how you managed without a 4 in 1 squizzy, i've got a gp bucket as part of my rental fleet so i play with it from time to time but reckon its of very limited use except maybe for pushing dirt on a concrete floor like in a soil yard. the only downside i can see of the 4 in 1 is usually less volume cause the bucket needs to be smaller due to weight. as for levelling, open your 4 in 1 right out and drag backwards afaik. i've got a great dane zero turn mower, the chariot 61", but i reckon the bobcat brushcat cuts far better than it in every way - its just not as manoeuvrable as the zero turn.
Squizzy246B You are correct that I have only have a quick play with a CAT. I'm a service tec from mexico and not many of my opperators will trade there machines before 2000hrs. We unlike you do not run in sand and mostly in rock and most of the opperators that i deal with do 1000hrs a yr and keep them for at least for 4000 hrs. So i see what they can and can't do. Most of my machines are STD controlls (foot and hand) But still with that there is very little down time them. mouse I also hear the same thing gp all the way in wa (its because all they have is sand) I see that most of the machines here have teeth and if somebody wants a flat also they put a flat blade under there teeth and weld them to about 3 to 4 of them. Makes the best of both worlds, and for a s150 up they can handel the extra volume. xrlentau6 Are you going std bobcat controlls??? If you are already use to a 753 why are you considering a change to different ones?
I'd be curious to know how I would manage too....did you steal mine Mouse???...do you know something I don't. I'm sure my 4in1 was on the machine yesterday
tacbob, yes i am going from the hand and foot to joystick because of ease of operation. I do some big areas at times where I think i would be better off with a wheel loader rather than a skid but have found it hard to go past the skid for it's jack of all trade's ablitly. I am 6'3 tall and have a bad knee from to much football so looking forward to putting the feet up and just using the joystick. Demo update. Cat on site was as good as I expected, they are coming back to me next wek with the dollars. Had a play in a new S205 this morning and its as good as the cat for feel with the joystick (better than the S185). This could be as it was the lastest with the new dash etc. A big plus to the S205 ( or bobcats) is I can get the electrics fitted for a laser grader which I can then hire and finish of pads etc in half the time. Also going for the bolt on teeth option that way most of the year I dont need the teeth, just when its middle of summer and the clays set hard bolt them on and away we dig much easier than carrying 2 buckets around. So at this stage the S205 looks the winner.
just a thought - the sparky should be able to fit the electrics to either machine. or is it a 7 pin connection? i'm a bit taller than you and cannot for the life of me work std controls anymore. ha ha squizzy, my tense must've escaped your notice... besides twas not me observing that i'd just discovered how good a 4in1 is :Banghead
Correct...somewhat...what I think he is saying is the Bobcat is a goer as is for the attachment that is available. My 248B was pre-wired with all the bells and whistles to the seven pin plug but ....as we discussed sometime back on HEF...not all attachments are wired the same. When I went from a 226 (A) to a 246B I got the 4in1 thrown into the deal. Ever since I've wondered what I would do without it.
ok then squizzy, what do you run that requires so many connectors??
The coffee machine for one
lattes on the job eh? what else? not sure i've seen a machine so configured before.
I had a pick up broom on there a couple of times and the cat ones need some of those connections depending on what the broom is equipped for/with. Box level/grader with laser but I never had one on my machine. BTW, the two hoses (connected to the 4in1) are standard flow. The two large connectors above are for "Hi-Flow".
nice pic squizzy, shame about the legs. signed up for the 205 on monday, not much difference in machine, or cost in the end. Cat offer a great finance rate which makes there weekly payments the same for a dearer machine. In the end I know the guys at the bobcat dealer, and have had nothing but good service from them and while the Cat (Cavpower) I think would be the same I guess at this stage I will stick to what/who I know. After spending 9 hours in the 753 yesterday, knees and shoulders killing me can not wait for 2 weeks time, put the feet up and let the hands do the work. Even went for the deluxe dash so I have the coded pannel instead of the key, just another pin number to remeber.
xrlentau6 Good choice on the machine, Those 205's have been awesome. Are you going with the superfloat tyres? or just 10/16.5's?
tick the hiflo box? congrats btw. anyone herein used a mill on their skidsteer? i'm sorta tossing up tween a mill and a dedicated machine like the wirtgen. i have a sneaking suspicion the wirtgen will eat the skid steer mills for breakfast...
going with the wide tyres for sure, anything to make the ride a bit smoother. No didnt tick the hi-flow box, not sure its needed for the work that I will be doing, mainly digging out around houses, putting down shed pads, and doing gravel drives oh and moving **** loads of dirt from house footings and septics. counting down the days.
Congratulations. The 205 is a waaayyyy better machine than the 185. Don't forget the photos.
[Hello, I am new to this site but am curious if anyone can answer a computer error question for me. I have a '07 bobcat T300 that keeps locking me out of the handle controls (tilt and lift). I can only use the foot pedal operation. The easy answer is to have it serviced but my service company is backed up and I need to keep the machine in operation. Any quick solutions?
does it give you an error code that you can search for? there are a couple of fairly knowledgable bobcat mechanic types resident herein tho your question might get lost in this thread.
It gives an error code about a ground or sensor? I can get the exact code if needed.
i'd get the code and google it as an exact search term - ie search for it enclosed in inverted commas like this "56-05"
I will check it out. Thanks.
I owned a brand new T190 bought from the Adelaide Bobcat store and although it did the job it near beat me to death and was heavy on juice(100L a day) plus once they had my money they were rubbish for after sales service I blew both drive motors at 100hrs they had the machine for 3 weeks and i had to fight to get a flogged out S130 as a loaner which i couldn't wait to give back cos it was so poorly balanced i spent more time trying to keep it on its wheels than working. When i was buying my b/c the dealer Stuart told me he didnt have a machine for me to demo and that i should go and find someone who does so i could try one out, great dealer attitude!!!Later I looked to up grade to a pilot control machine but the b/c was so vague. Looking at other alternatives i demo'd a New Holland machine all be it hesitantly due to the ford 555 history. I was really surprised at how comfortable and well balanced the machine was they dropped it to my job in the Adelaide hills and let me demo it for a week and i was sold best move i have made. No more physio, way less fuel (55l a day) and an excellent service team and company back up. So before you sign up go round to GEO Machinery on Francis st and speak to the owner Steve Heywood he is great to deal with and always bends over backwards to help out. Bobcat has had the Lions share of the market for a long time as they used to make a great product however now there is great competion and their product is becoming average who knows what will happen now that they have sold out to korea( doosan i think it is) Hope this helps John Rogers
Can i ask why? we have an S185 and sometimes it seems under powered but its been nothing but a great machine for us.
You said it Two good associates of mine have S185's. One is a builder and one of his sons does all their site works. They have had a lot of small electrical issues but power is the main problem. We often have our Cat machine and the S185 on the same site. Awhile back I was digging and stockpiling on an inner city job and run out of space to stockpile.....so I did what all maniacs do in the inner city and ramped up the stockpile, climbed up on top and started doubling the height. The son that operates the S185 just watched and shook his head. I asked him what the problem was and he said he wouldn't even bother attempting to get the machine where we were going....he'd save himself the embarrassment.
Squizzy246B There is a big difference between a 246 to a s185, If you machine is the same as the c model it weighs 3.3 ton and it have 71hp, this would be a s220 (not brought into aus) So for us we would spec a s250. These machines are incredible and very different to a s185 which has 56hp and weighs around the 2.7t. They may seem underpowered to your machine but for there size they do a very good job.
I have a 226BII and the machine in the situation above was a 226B. I traded the 246 on a 248B quite awhile back. I have spent more than 100 hours in 185's and I know what they are capable of.
Sorry, I should get my facts rite first. I agree that a 185 is typical bobcat and a little rear heavy at times, 205's are way better for this. I guess they are trying to get to much lift out of a small machine.
Probably....I think the S250 is the best machine Bobcat have on the market at the moment. I not sure of the height of the centre of gravity or the actual weight distribution on the Bobcats but on the Perth Coastal Plain (the big sandpit) the Cats are noted for dragging their a....rear end in the sand. The way to level with the Cat is to work with 1/2 a bucket full, or, like mine, the weight of the 4in1. The Cats are, IMHO the best for loading trucks but the Mustangs and Bobcats seem to get around better in the real soft stuff. I once had a "Load off" against a Case (two six wheelers back to back) and was enjoying my first beer by the time the Case finished. Then the Case operator said lets have a levelling competition....I declined....to save myself the embarrassment If I was doing house pads everyday I wouldn't buy a Cat....they can do it well enough but I think there is better balanced machines out there that will do it easier.
Thats another fact that I forgot. Most of you guys over west don't run 4.1's. One day they will all wake up like u did Squizzy246B and get one. Now I see we try and get people to get std buckets to save wear on their 4.1's but over here they don't accept that.
Wait Awhile is just catching on.....more and more 4in1's out there everyday.....they'll catch up...next century. I have both to save some wear on clamshell but....it stays on the machine .....lots.
we have a 4 in 1 and bolt on track UC on the machine and i wouldn't hasetate (SP?) to do exactly what you did, in fact i have done that. I will say its under powered breakout force at times but you get used to it. the tracks were def. the best money ever spent on the machine. would LOVE to have enough work right now to upgrade to the new CAT 299 or the Bobcat 320! got anytime on a 320?
Therealjohnboy, Sorry to hear about your bad luck, I have found SA Lift and Loader to be very good so far, and that has played a large part in choosing the S205 over the cat. Started to look at New Hollands before but bloke around the corner traded an S130 in on one and hates it. Things like the 4in1 doesnt have enough power to close when in a pile of rubble etc. So it was always a choice of Cat or Bobcat and yes the bobcat seemed a bit vauge with the joysticks in the S185, but for some reason driving the S205 the day after the cat I couldnt pick a difference. ( mabye a better operator could) Also not sure how the track machines compare as havent looked down that path. ( oh also both Cavpower and Sa lift on Loader brought the machines out to me on site all the way out here at Angle Vale. Squzziy Felt for you yesterday, not to far from here is a sand belt and had to clean off and then level an area 60 mts by 4mts along a fence line all soft sand that had been blown across. You wouldnt think the soft stuff would be as hard to dig as clay, when the wheels just dig in. Got covered in dust and was just thinking about the new machine. The Bobcat has about 50mm more ground clearance than the cat which will come in handy in the sand, and then in the wet clay. About a week to go now, am thinking of calling customers up and saying sorry will have to put your jobs off for a week as hmmm the old 753 just dosent seem much like fun any more.