So not sure if you guys been following me at all on this backhoe project that I have going on 580 C originally I bought this back not running brought it back to my house. Did a compression test and elite down test as were coming in at 150 to 165 psi When I added a little bit of oil to the cylinders when the heads were still attached and did a compression test, my compression went up to a roughly 300 pounds after leak test my exhaust valves were clearly leaking during the compression stroke so I pulled the head off New valves valve springs valve guides valve seals and I have the head at the machine shop now getting new stuff installed but my question is while I have it apart. Should I put sleeves piston rings in it or just put the head back on and run it I don’t see any noticeable wear And there’s no ridge at the top of the piston on the walls like you would normally see from a worn cylinder wall and rings. I’m just wondering if the added oil in cylinders during a compression test actually sealed the exhaust valves as well I used a pretty lightweight oil stuff it was mystery oil so I imagine it would’ve pushed up to the exhaust Valves as well
Meh, if there’s no noticeable ridge and your rebuilding this to just use it and run it, I wouldn’t bother. If you’re rebuilding this to make it a show queen then you have to ask yourself, is this going to bother you?
An ID mic would tell you a lot. If you have wavey liners, by the time your rings seat, the ring gap has opened up past specs.............and your still losing compression.
Yea it’s not a show queen
I do have a I’d mic I’ll check that out as well I’ll take measurements to see if consistency is there thanks for the tip
Your reconditioned head is going to raise the compression and that will increase the pressure on the piston rings. You may see a rise in oil consumption and some crankcase blow-by depending on the condition of the rings and liners. What was the oil pressure when you had it running ? Going by the condition of the head, the motor may be due for an overhaul. An overhaul kit isn't terribly expensive. If you were to do that you will be able to see what condition the crankshaft journals are in.
Never heard it run purchased in non running conditions but head was in good condition except for the two center exhaust seats reseeded but all cylinders were leaking down through exhaust valves didn’t notice any blow by thru breather tube when I did leak down as well but could have missed it because muffler was definitely filling up with air
If oil in the cylinders brought up compression points to worn piston rings. If the valves are out of adjustment, oil won't change the readings.
Oil in the cylinders will raise compression even on a brand new engine. You are reducing volume by adding the oil. A leak down test is by far a better way to see if rings or valves are leaking.
I think it would depend on how big of a difference the compression was and also the differences between each cylinder.
An improvement in psi on wet test confirms ring leakage .
This is what I was thinking as well keep in mind that this thing has not run in 10 plus years so I imagine everything is dry so adding a little oil could definitely seal some stuff up
Each One was within 5 to 10 psi it went from 165 to 300 when I added oil
I imagine most oil would sit in bowls reducing volume significantly
If it hasn’t run in 10 years, I expect the liners will be pitted, especially at the top but nothing that will prevent in from running another 20 years or so. Just give them a good look. I myself would just put the head on and run it. Don‘t worry, you will be spending enough coin, in getting all the other stuff it will need. The money you would spend on the short block kit, could easily be spent on hoses and resealing quite a few cylinders. lol
This is exactly what I would do as well. Since you don't know anything else about the machine you can find out what else may be wrong with it. Especially if you bought it to maintain a personal property, casual use. It will burn a little oil but it very well could run another twenty years. Just my opinion though.
I agree . Put on if it runs good Great. If it won't run, it just costs you a new head gasket and your time .
Agree with them guys, make it run first. Don't want to jinx you but what if you spend all that loot on lower end just to discover shuttle is pooched and hydraulic pump is shot. As earlier stated, just a head gasket and your time, that machine is pretty easy for do-over.
You have really ask a question ??? Good luck
Well, Im for rebuilding this entire engine. Many pics, much booze, differing opinions……mixed with a few scantly clad young women fanning us with palm leaves.
Old Milwaukee has been my grog of choice for many years so my vote goes to the Swedish Bikini Team for the fan service.
I imagine most oil would sit in bowls reducing volume significantly lol Good times! Well I probably will at some point in time if the rest of machine works out well and I don’t need to repair everything on here lol but I’ll leave a few pictures for some more information
These are my id of sleeves on engine from top to bottom
If that were mine, I’d pull the pan, pull the piston assemblies, cross hatch those glassy liners. Put in new rings, replaced rod bearings, install the head……and rock n roll!
I read in Manuel that these are chrome plated liners and don’t hone just replace them also read that if they are tapered.001 to replace them but idk if you look at cardboard art diagram you can see 1-2 are within spec and 3-4 are not also in my previous post about the head exhaust valves recessed are in same 3-4 cylinder
Should have pulled the old head gasket for the pics. Is that cracked liner on #2 going to be a problem?
I didn’t see any cracks in the liners but I’ll pull old gasket off and take another picture
Much better and everything looks great!
I could write a very thick book on this subject. There are so many ways to think. 1 when I get it running I want the engine to be in great shape so I can work on other problems and not have to go back and work on it. 2 if the rest is totally junk I can sell the engine. 3 should I just patch the engine and see how the rest is. Been there done it several ways cant really say what to do a lot depends on the owners financing .
Yea I’m having trouble making a decision I have a problem with everything I own I want it to be perfect but it is kinda easy to pull head back off if is the case
You risk a little time and the cost of a head gasket. I would weigh the costs and go from there.
you've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?"
How come the piston tops are so clean? Usually when a head is pulled there is carbon buildup in the cylinder above the top ring travel.
I can only assume it’s from the pb blaster that I was spraying down and filling up the cylinders with when I got it to get some lubricants moving since I presumed it sat for so long ! It does do a number on rust and grease so maybe it cleaned out the carbon
You could probably bolt the head down and set the rockers in and do another compression test before you do coolant and exhaust install. Those walls look to be lacking in crosshatch.
That’s a great idea ! Thanks that will at least save me time with radiator and trans cooler assembly installation
Just wanted to give everyone an update on progress. Got head back from Machine Shop and installed on block did compression test and it went up to 310-290 not sure if this is worth the squeeze or should I pull back off and do piston and liners ? Or will it run with these values?
Are those numbers from a dry compression test, or wet? Those numbers, if dry, you would be better off going after the rings and liners. Might as well do the lower half. If those are wet numbers, not even sure it will run.
If you used a new head gasket i’d try to run it the way it is and re-evaluate
How often do you plan to use. Fact is once the pistons are hot it could run for another few years. Have known of guys that need machine once every 3 months that just spray WD40 in her intake every time they need to use and fix hoses or cylinders instead. Depends how much time and energy you want to spend. Hate to make engine perfect and transmission grenades or rear diff grenades. Lots to think about. Simon C
WHAT HE SAID!
I had a 4 cylinder perkins in a tractor that had 290 psi on one cylinder and 375 on the other 3. It would start on three smoking pretty bad then if you revved it up number 4 would cut in . Once it ran for 10 minutes it would clear up pretty good. Kept the mosquitoes at bay when started cold.
Few drops of oil in cylinder and I was afraid you were going to say that lol
Brand new head gasket
lol
Problem is all are 310 except for one at 290
Well this is the thing I never heard it run so have no idea if transmission or transaxle is actually good just wanna get it running to see if worth the squeeze to make a lady out of her ! Bought to use around property not for business use if that means anything
You can always do more extensive repairs once running in case if it is a lawn ornament. Just saying. Its your money and no one else will pay for a transmission or differential for you. I would start with WD 40, check out how it runs and then decide how much money to throw at it. How many hoses or cylinders will you need, not 1 person knows forsure yet. Simon C
So you think it will start with wd40 for sure then run on pump diesel with the compression that I have currently
Definitely. The WD40 will bring it up a good 10%. Running isn’t the issue. If you have some rings broken, you could seriously hurt the engine more than it is. Its a crap shoot and honestly, if it were mine and I wanted to use it around the property, I want it to run and run well. At the point you’re at, you can do the inframe and not have to worry about it, probably for the rest of your life, if properly maintained. The liners, piston and rings are 2k, your call. That said, even with those numbers, them damn diesels keep running.
Once started and pistons increasing in size and heating up, the diesel fuel will ignite easily. If it wont fire with lubricated walls, it means there is a problem with the fuel system. Every time I rebuild an engine I heavily coat the cylinder walls. They fire up on only the first 2 cylinders before I even have the fuel lines closed on the other 4 cylinders. Cylinders love oil for starting, and with a hair of fuel spray they are running. Small lawn mower can run with no carburetor or fuel tank, just on WD 40 being sprayed continuously. Ran 1 for over 5 minutes to show a friend that his problem was in the carburetor. Simon C
You beat me Happy Harley.
Happy Harley is correct. But it all depends on your budget, cause you have no way of knowing what the rest of it will cost. Gamble is yours to take. Simon C
With just lower compression some engines can run for a long time. But who knows the condition of the crank. I have opened a few engines to find the crank was junked, non repairable. Not saying yours is , just saying. You will have to sleep one night on it. Simon C
Not really, this is east coast time, it’s called make another drink. lol
Well I think I will try to get it started on wd-40 to see the condition of the rest of machine before I spend anymore money ! I’ll keep you all posted thank you for everything
How’s it going HE fam hope you’re all having as much fun as I am lol wanna give everyone a update I put This case back together minus coolant , water pump and air filter housing to try to get started with the 290-300 compression with no luck I even tried wd-40 and hot air ! So I decided to purchase a in frame kit new liners piston and bearings, was wondering if anyone can give me some advice of any known problems before I dig into this and drop the pan I plan on using plastigauge to make sure bearing clearance is standard and don’t need to turn crank ! But my concern is I read in the manual to use plastigauge for checking liner protrusion when installing I’m wondering how necessary this is as it has a deck that it sits in and can’t get installed to low and as long as there’s no carbon dirt etc it would sit properly
Does this mean, you are going to run the original crank, the way it was?
If you lubed the cylinder walls before assembly of head and valves were set properly, unless there is no fuel coming from injectors, you probably have more than 1 cylinder with broken compression rings. I usually pressurize the fuel tank to help push the fuel through the system. Once it is apart lots more will be clear. Did you see the push rods go up and down, in case the cam is broken. Simon C
I was planning on leaving the crank in engine and using as is if it’s not destroyed or tapered
Head was sent to machine shop all new valves and seats on cylinders 3-4
I did lube walls it brought compression up a bit originally I thought valves were my only problem. That’s the reason why I sent the head out to the machine shop and had them put valve seals and new valves in. It was leaking out the exhaust when I was doing a leak down test so after I put the head on the engine, lubed up the original cylinder walls, which looked kind of shiny you can look in some of the posts compressions went up 165 to 290-310 but still won’t run on WD-40 it smokes but no run ! So my guess is to put new liners and pistons but not sure if I have injection pump issues too cause I have no fuel delivery from injectors which is another problem not sure which one to tackle first but I was figuring I could get it started on spraying down intake tube before pulling apart pump and rebuilding
If you have fuel running out of the tank line to a knew filter, if your transfer pump is spitting out good amount of fuel with unit cranking. Maybe your fuel pump is stuck off. Not sure if yours has the delivery valve that sometimes gets stuck. I have unstuck one that has not died since 3 years ago. The delivery valve is inside the pump under the top cover. You need to get the fuel pump outputting before throwing a pile of money into the engine without knowing the rest of the machines condition. Did you put air to the tank while cranking over to help bleed the fuel. But if it has a delivery valve stuck it will probably make no difference. Post a picture of your injection pump and maybe Pump Guy will chime in with some recommendations. Does that thing have a fuel solenoid, or manual lever shut off. Simon C
It’s a cable shut off and I have poured fuel into top cover and made sure metered valve is not stuck but it’s still not spraying out lines with injection lines disconnected maybe I have stuck plunger or something
Send a message to Pump Guy as he know more than anyone on your Roosa Master pump and things to check. He has rebuilt quite a few for different members. Be good to get it starting. Simon C
@HarleyHappy do you think I should change main bearings since I have oil pan off to do sleeves or just do connecting rods and sleeves with new piston and rings
I would like to see better pics of the connecting rod journals but I just rebuilt a Kubota V2203 that had a melted #1 piston and pretty much same thing as yours and just light emery cloth on crank to clean and did pistons connecting rod bearings and just 3 hone cylinder walls and got good cross hatch. Left mains in. Idles at 35 psi and runs at 60 psi oil pressure. Did use moly lube for reassembly. Cylinder walls had some light scratches but nothing really bad. If I was working it 12 hour days, 5 days a week, I would have went a different way. Pretty amazed, I have little to no blow by. Reason I didn’t do a step by step here, is I already knew half the comments I would get.
This is piston from number two cylinder skirt is gouging and chrome is worn on top of connecting rod my crank is within spec for round but has some taper going on .0005 should I be concerned with putting new bearings in without turning crank or just use old bearings in original location with new pistons and sleeves
Yea I know sometimes it’s not as critical as we all think
That upper rod bearing has made it to the copper layer. These are indications that there was not enough lube at some point such as a cold morning with wrong oil. It will always be the upper half of rod that will wear the most, bottom of mains will be worn the most also. If you can afford mains best at least look at some, once one is spun it is all over. Pistons are a bit rough, but have seen worse. Simon C
2-4-3-1
I bought new in frame kit , comes with piston,rings,sleeves, rod bearings, main bearings as well , little upset was hoping to finish this project today but turns out I needed to buy O rings separately wish Jensales would’ve told me that!
Once you are done that stuff, you will at least know where you stand. Simon C
Rear main bearing looks good to me but would like some feedback! If I don’t have to change them I don’t have to mess with the backlash on the oil pump
Those mains don't look too bad. Don't leave the crank suspended with no support or it will bend. Check the back side of the bearings to find out if standard or not. I use a supper thin and skinny drywall putty knife to push the upper halfs out and back in. I use 105 Lube on the bearings or STP to give more start up protection. Simon C
This was my number 1 cylinder. Looks terr but everything cleaned up pretty good, think you will be fine.
Wow yea I agree those rings are meshed ll together thanks for sharing appreciate the support
Those mains look fine.
Plasti-gauge should be used on all of the new or old bearings. Crankshaft end-play should be checked to be within allowed tolerance. From the service manual -->
Yes I agreed on engine on stand but almost impossible to get dial indicator on crankshaft end play for oil pump when in frame I’m just doing a quick inframe rebuild to get tractor running not even sure if anything else is wrong as I bought not running
I will plastigauge new connecting rod bearings before installing to make sure ok ! If crank out of round or tapered I will just leave these bearings in same place and run it like this
Use could use a feeler gauge between the main-bearing flange and the crankshaft. If a torque convertor is connected to the crankshaft with a flex plate, excessive end play will eventually cause the flex plate to fail. It could have cracks in it already. That is one reason to remove the engine from the tractor-- is to get access for flex plate inspection. If you have a clutch, different situation.
By the same token, if flex plate is good, no cracks, then run it. In a perfect world, you would yank the engine and do a complete overhaul. I would make sure you set the torque converter to the flex plate, with a centering tool, if they make it, or with a dial indicator.
This may be stupid question but is it the same style flex plate as a standard transmission as the power shuttle shift ?
No, it shouldn’t be. You really need a set of manuals. I am still looking for a Kubota V 2203 manual. Besides, you aren’t getting near the flex-plate.
I think you guys have way over complicated this engine rebuild. It's an old old machine stuff some new bearings, pistons and rings in it and run it. You're going to measure end play? Why if it's off are u buying a new crank? Someone suggested Cleaning up the crank with emery paper! That will scratch it worse than it was. You are worried about .0005 crankshaft taper. Some crank shops don't get it that good.
I’m putting this back together and hoping for the best I did some measuring and I’m confident it will be fine I looked and mains they aren’t bad and I will just put new connecting rod bearings and call it a day my in frame came with new liners and pistons complete! Also these liners I pulled out have already been replaced at one point it’s pretty straightforward stuff I have been a working on junk my entire life lol
Keep up the ****** work, someone will appreciate, long after your gone. No joke, I keep telling my wife, if I go first, just get my brother and my friends to sell everything off, except the guns. That, I have a broker for.
Isn’t that the truth! Someone is going to be happy!
What’s up HE Family , well it’s that time again to give everyone a friendly update about this case 207d I put all new parts in Rod Bearings ,sleeves , Rings, pistons, which were already on pistons when I got them ! Anyway all assembled and new head gasket installed but my problem is my compression only went up 25psi I’m a little concerned that maybe I have a faulty compression tester it came from Harbor Freight Brand New for this project as it was a deluxe diesel compression kit ! I would have to call this one a definite ****** experience lol
It’s Alive
Tad bit smoky here! Hopefully I can adjust timing to clean up excess fuel
Atta boy. Now the big question, does it move and did you cycle the hydros?
Looks good, I don’t believe that POS pressure tester, those new liners, pistons and rings, should be over 400.
I need to hook up hydro filtering tubes I removed to clean tank and put liner in tank it was leaking so that’s next lol
Yea I knew something was wrong when I was putting pencil test in and felt heat coming from cylinders I said this pos is off no way it’s only 325 psi
when I bought these liners and pistons it stated that I needed to change injectors too because the bowls are 2.60 from 2.23 but I changed injectors I bought a cheap set on eBay for 100 bucks put on pop tester and changed them from 3500 pst to 2800 like manual said calling for my question is does anyone have experience with figuring out what ones I’m supposed to use now because of bowl design?
Good luck with the cheap injectors holding your adjustment. I tried some of those a couple years ago and within a couple hours of runtime they lost adjustment. Finally bought new stanadyne's for ~ $90 ea. and no problem since. Maybe check with the liner manufacturer to see what they recommend for injectors
Ok I was afraid you would say that lol ok I have my old ones too I could always put them on pop tester and see if they spray ok and as far as injection angle I’ll check with company who sold me pistons
Some diesel shops can rebuild injectors but, for the $100 each I would go new unless they warranty them. It would be a shame after all your work to still not have it run right
Yea at this point buying injectors would be nothing lol
What’s up HE family! Just checking in to say that everything went well with rebuild topped off fluids and shuttle performed as needed goes in forward and reverse direction brakes working transaxle working properly But I do have some leaking! Extendahoe leaking , front steering cylinders leaking! Minor leak on transaxle and transmission! I can live with small drips but not extended hoe and steering so this will be my next project! I just wanted to say thank you for your support!
Awesome
Spoke too soon lol got stuck in high gear today so off comes the floor to pull top cover I imagine pins moved in shift linkage! Fingers crossed!
Mine will sometimes not want to come out of gear. Sometimes you have to use the switch to dis-engage the clutch or shift the shuttle in forward, reverse, then neutral. Try that first
Fixed it yesterday had to pull floor out and pull shifter out with set screw on side and slide low gear linkage back into place it appears set screw was worn to the point that it allowed the ball to lift out of location but all set now