Hello. I have received some great assistance on this forum, so I'm hopeful someone can direct me further. I'm a total novice! I learned (from this forum) that my Torque Converter is shot. I've been able to diagnose and confirm that it is indeed so. Yesterday, I split the tractor to begin removal of the torque converter, but it appears my issues are deeper than I'd hoped. I have attached two, annotated, images that show the issue(s) and I also have some questions noted on these images. If there is anyone that can look at these images and respond to my questions, I would be most grateful. Thanks, in advance, to those that can advise me. I hope I can return the favor someday!
No Ball bearings Mike. The flywheel bolts are sheared off. Hopefull there is no damage to the crankshaft. Here is a link to the parts list, maybe. I just randomly looked at 555A. Not sure what you have. https://partstore.agriculture.newho...-search.html#epc::mr58290ar361297bi1152429-14
Sorry. I omitted that it's a 1983 Ford555. I'm a bit confused. When I split the tractor, should the fly wheel and torque converter remained with the front of the tractor and the engine? In other words the flywheel bolts to the front of the engine from the backside? My shop manual shows none of the details to help me.
Yep, the thing you are talking about disconnecting from the driveshaft is the end of the crankshaft. The "ball bearings" are broken bolts, worn round from rubbing on the flywheel. If you find a GOOD repair welder, he can probably build up those bolts and back them out. If so, a new flywheel and you are back in business.
I'm looking at it now. Makes sense now. Thanks so very much!
broken flywheel bolts has left you with out drive to TC/ Transmission like Mitch said replace bolts and flywheel, and maybe good to go
you may be able to pick that flywheel/torque converter up and slide it right off the end of the transmission input shaft, then remove the bolts holding them together, then you'll find the heads of your broken bolts somewhere. Special bolts obviously, get them from a dealer, etc. The broken bolts might be easy or NOT. The welding trick is almost the only way to go about this one, you absolutely do not want to drill off center and mess up the threads in the crankshaft. It is not hard to weld up a broken bolt and remove it, but you do NOT want to learn on this crankshaft, get somebody who knows exactly what they're doing. Even if you have to pay somebody a few hundred $$$ it will be worth it.
Thank you all for responding. My concern is the bolts are sheared off flush and a few even below the surface. I'm not sure if/how the welding technique will work, but I will definitely look into it.
This is not a job for an amateur. It is time to get someone that knows how to get the bolts out. One little screw up with a welder and it may create a bolt welded to the crankshaft. Then you are royally screwed. Those bolts may be able to be taken out with a cold chisel. A very narrow one. I have done many of them with good results. Although not in a crankshaft. One of the problems with the bolts that sheared below the surface is that the exposed threads may be damaged.
image the sheared off bolt sticking out the most,, putting a larger size nut over it and the welding inside the nut to the sheared off bolt,, as mentioned before please let a expert do it..... don't let someone try and mess it up for the expert,, it works if done right
I have had success with getting these type broken bolts out of crankshafts using picks as Delmer suggested. The idea is that the tension was released when the bolt head sheared off making removal possible with picks. I applied a generous amount of penetrating fluid and with sharp picks I made from chainsaw files, I was able to eventually work all bolts from the crank. Once you get one to move either way, you can usually get it out.
Torque convertor is probably ok, it it's not turning you're not moving. Small sharp punch to get those bolts out, with a tiny hammer to start. Not a big beater, easy does it. Joe H
You also have a dowel pin sheared off and stuck in the flywheel, and missing from the crankshaft hub(the small odd hole). The correct typical installation order is, to install the torque converter into the transmission. The flywheel is installed on the crankshaft. Then the two halves of the tractor get put together and then you install the 8 bolts that attach the flywheel to the torque converter though the starter hole. Then install the starter. At this point, your crankshaft hub and or flywheel may have surface damage that with cause runout on the flywheel(and attached converter) when assembled. After getting the broken bolts out of the crank hub, you need to mount the flywheel up and use a dial indicator to see if the runout is acceptable. I agree with the others that welding to the broken bolts to remove them may be the best option. Although with great care(using a homemade jig), drilling them with a small diameter bit centered, they may come out easily with an easy out. Not familiar with the model tractor you have but, if your torque converter drives an oil pump like most automatic transmissions, be sure to be very careful when inserting the converter into the transmission and be sure the pump drive is engage correctly. Do not force it in. It should go in and out easily by hand. Needing to rotate also to get the pump drive tangs engaged.
FWIW, you should have continued your original thread about this(not start a new one). At least, post a link to your original thread for the whole story. HeavyEquipmentForums And always state what model you have in the title! And your your torque converter is most likely fine.
Hey, 2 bits of good news on this story: Tinkerer and I were basically right in our original diagnosis, the older Fords had a habit of breaking the center out of the flywheel from people shifting from forward to reverse with it revved up. That caused this same effect. The other good thing is that a flywheel is cheaper than a torque converter. A good welder will be able to remove those bolts easily. You can try a pick or a punch, but be careful you don't scar up the threads in the hole and make it hard for him. Drilling them would be very difficult and dangerous, they are VERY hard bolts, or if they are not, that was your problem. I say dangerous because if your drill bit gets off a little, you are going to spend thousands on an engine rebuild. Also, I would replace the flywheel with new because with some wear in the holes, you will be doing this again soon. Good luck, Mitch
I agree with using picks or a small cold chisel first,but when that fails,I have welded a flat washer to the boken bolt first , a size smaller than the broken bolt,centered, and clamped or held firm . that gives you a good start to the weld and keeps you clear of the threads. Next ,weld the nut to the broken bolt,on bigger bolts you can weld a bit around the outside of the nut to washer as well as inside. Let it cool then work it back and forth gently and out they come.80% success on the first try, some take a couple of shots , but the washer saves your surface and the threads.
My experience with the given problem has been similar...I want to add one thing...when things do not work out right away, take a break, get your cool than set back to it. I have seen many guys destroy things because they lost their cool and did things that were questionable. Keep the thought that you will take your time and it will all come together, and it will! One other thing I have seen work is a punch mark (a good one) in the center of the bolt, then a left handed drill. You are not trying to drill the bolt out. You are trying to spin the bolt out. As previously mentioned, once a bolt snaps, the pressure is gone and all that remains is the resistance of the threads. So, unless it was cross threaded in the beginning, or the threads got buggered (technical term) they should come out.
Michael ; For me, welding on the crankshaft is a last resort situation on those recessed bolts. Try all the other ways suggested and I am sure an experienced mechanic or machinist will get them out. I would try turning them in a 1/4 turn just to try and get them freed up. Lots of PB Blaster too. If you look closely at those recessed bolts are the crankshaft threads damaged ??
Hard to tell about the condition of the threads, but I believe they are ok. Today I used a 1/4" left-handed bit and carefully drilled a hole in the center of one of these bolts. It took quite a while, but I got in about 1/2 inch. The hole is nicely centered, and I didn't hit the sides at all, so the threads should be undamaged. I'm not sure how far these bolts go into the crankshaft, so I don't know how deep I'd have to go to get all the way through the bolt (anyone know?). I then tried to use a bolt remover to back it out, but no success. The bolt remover actually started to twist, so I stopped before it snapped. The bolts must be in there pretty tight. I have a professional welder coming to visit me tomorrow to take a look at this and see what he can do. I'll update this post and let y'all know what happened. Now that I have a clean hole in the bolt, I was wondering if I could use a left-handed tap to thread the hole and then insert a left-hand bolt until it bottoms out and then try to back it out. Has anyone ever done this? I'm not sure if the bolts are too hard to use a die to thread it. You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for the information. Very helpful.
I felt that it was a new topic, so I created a new thread. If that was incorrect, I do apologize.
Just a suggestion. I read your thread and wondered what the backstory was. I looked for other threads by you and found what I was wondering about. I don’t think most people will take the time to do that. I think it’s always best to continue one thread on a repair. Just trying to be helpful
A follow up thought: Does anyone know what the best type of drill bits are best for this project- Carbide, Titanium, or Cobalt?
The easy way is to cut a slot in the center of each bolt with a die grinder/cutoff wheel. Stick a screwdriver in the slot and back them out. Works wonders in most cases.
Try a screwdriver like vetech says. Use a carbide bit as a last resort in case you break off a softer bit in the broken bolt. A true carbide bit is super expensive. Masonry bits are commonly referred to as carbide. But, they need to be reground at different cutting angle to drill steel.
The threads could be messed up, or they could be locktited. Don't sweat it if they don't come out easy. Welding a nut onto them works almost without fail. The heat causes the bolt to expand, but it's restrained by the crankshaft, since the bolt is hot it is weaker and will "upset"/deform to fit the hole, then it shrinks, and also has a nut welded to it. In most cases it will move a bit and you can wiggle back and forth enough to get it to work out. Or you break it off and weld another nut on to try again. Smack the head of the bolt with a small ball pein hammer as soon as done welding, let it cool COMPLETELY, don't get in a rush when working them loose. Don't drill them unless you have to, like the welding fails a few times. Welding up a hole drilled in the center will make the bolt shrink even better in my experience. Any good high speed steel drill bit should drill those bolts without too much trouble. You may need to resharpen, or use a few bits. IF they get dull without ever really cutting into the bolt, then you need a harder/sharper drill bit.
A reverse cobalt bit would be best if you resort to drilling often the bolt will start backing out before you get very deep. If you weld a nut on the end you could get a can of freeze and blast the bolt with it to hopefully shrink it a bit. Regardless what ever you do it will take a bit of time and patience , best of luck.
Unfortunately, 4 of the 6 bolts are broken off below the surface and are inaccessible to use a cut-off wheel. Also, the one bolt I drilled through yesterday is so tight that a bolt remover would not remove it without snapping.
I'm using a leftleft-handed (reverse) cobalt bi .
Who knew this would be so difficult? I had a welder come yesterday. No luck. I don't think he was the best technician, but the only one I could get to make a house call. Because the bolts are broken off slightly below the surface, he had a hard time welding a nut on. Any time he got one secured, it just twisted off breaking the weld. Despite the warnings, I drilled one of the bolts today. I went very slowly and am confident I haven't damaged any threads (yet). My current challenge is I can't tell if I'm all the way through the bolt and now drilling my way into the crankshaft. The parts list says the bolt is 2-1/8" in length and I've drilled in to a depth of 1-1/4" and the broken bolts I retrieved from behind the crankshaft (the top halves) are between 1-1/4 and 1-3/8". This would seem to indicate that I'm all the way through the bolts bottom half in the crankshaft, yet I've seen no indication that I'm all the way through. I can't imagine that these bolts go completely to the bottom of the hole in the crankshaft, so there should be a break at some point? Thus far I just don't know if I have to keep drilling, or not. I tried tapping a bolt remover into the hole and loosening the bolt, but it won't budge. In fact, I snapped the bolt remover in half. Luckily, I was able to get that out of the hole.
Now that you have it drilled get a can of Freeze (comes in an arosol can) to shrink it then use your bolt extractor.
I'm not familiar with freeze, but sure willing to try it. Is this product (link below) what you are referring to? https://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals...eywords=freeze+in+a+can&qid=1583891694&sr=8-3 Thank you for your input Michael
That very well could be one type of freeze,the one I used was delivered to a garage where I was helping a friend and the first time I'd heard of it. I think they sell it in places like Lordco , Napa but Amazon would work for me to .
What size hole have you drilled so far?
Along with the old style spiral twist easy-out style tool, I have also had great success with the square type as well as his type. https://www.amazon.com/Irwin-Industrial-53227-Multi-Spline-Extractor/dp/B0002SRG66
doghead has a good very suggestion,,,i have set of the hex extractors from my NASCAR days be sure to use right bit size for each extractor GOOD LUCK
As they aren't turning I suspect they have been put in with Loctite. You need a better welder on the job, and get them out while they are still hot (not glowing red, but hot) as this heat will break the Loctite. Left handed drill bits are no good on anything that is loctited or seized in position, and extractors rarely work in this scenario either. Those tools are only effective when the broken bolt isn't stuck in position. The rest of the time, welding is the answer. It's less easy when they're below the surface but a good welder can do it, which I suspect is what you are lacking.
I agree completely Bill. I've had two welders here and neither of them has ever used this welding method. These bolts are in there so tight they almost appear to be melted in! So far, I've only managed to get one of them out.
Did you the one you got out have evidence of locktite on it? If they are loctited in, then that loctite may very well have to be cooked out before the bolts can be removed. I just wonder if the crank bearings can take that heat.
Yes, I have the same thoughts about using extreme heat on the crankshaft. As for "loctite evidence" I'm not sure what I would be looking for. The bolt I'm currently working on just appears to be melted into the threads. It won't break loose no how. I've never seen anything like it. Of course, the machine is 37 years old!
Sounds like you are looking at removing the crankshaft. Next question is how much do you want to spend on it if it went to a machine shop, only to find out that those bolts are not coming out without damaging it into a non-usable piece of junk. You can get a new or reconditioned one for $500.00 or less. What do the flywheel bolt holes look like ? I'm guessing they are nasty.
The flywheel holes I don't think are too bad. I'm actually heading out in a few minutes to a machine shop with the flywheel to have it checked out. I'm definitely beginning to think I'm looking at pulling the crankshaft and replacing it. At this point I have so much of the front of the tractor in pieces, I may take it all the way. These bolts are fused into the crankshaft holes for some reason. I'm going to finish drilling as clean as I can and try to run a tap through them and see if the threads come back to life. If not, I'm looking at going the distance.
As for loctite evidence anyone familiar with it could spot it blindfolded. When heated it will hit you in the nose like a brick wall. Wish I could see that crank in person, I am having a hard time understanding how those bolts would appear to be melted into the crank. I have taken apart many things that were over 37 years old, just for example look at that truck over to the left, and sure some things do rust up but with care most will come out. Not saying I never had a bolt rust in but hard to imaging a flywheel bolt that bad. The worst ones are those that break off on a 45º angle making drilling for easy-out a pain.
I wish you were here too!
I have a couple of these drilled all of the way through and the walls of the bolt remaining so thin, less than a 32nd of an inch. Even at this, they won't come loose with a cold chisel tapping away. I'm not saying they're melted in, but they're hanging on for dear life.
Perhaps the wrong bolts were put in and you are dealing with thread pitch issues. That would partially explain of the failure of them. Any idea what size the bolts are ?
The bolts are 9/16 and 18-pitc . I have the bolt heads. All high quality #8 steel. They look original.
Have you probed the drilled bolt with a small pick to see if the bolts are bottomed out in the blind hole ? Bottomed out bolts would never allow the flywheel to be tight against the flange. Were there washers under the bolt heads ? Stranger things have happened when dummies work on equipment. The plus side of a replacement crankshaft is all new bearing inserts and new seals front and rear ! You may be surprised what your old ones are like.
I have indeed probed the holes. Bolts were not bottomed out. There were no washers under the bolt heads. I was wondering about whether there should have been lock washers. I have a machinist coming next week. He claims to be able to determine if they are removable or not; and if they are he says he'll get them out. We'll see!
Loctite shows up as a light/white powder/flakes on the bolt threads and it can be remarkably strong, which is why heat is likely to be necessary as it frees Loctite. Or it could be that they're badly rusted in place, but it's not something I'd really expect on flywheel bolts but that's not to say it couldn't happen.
I have the top half of all 6 bolts and there's certainly no evidence of any material. Perhaps it was added only to the bottom part of each bolt, but not really sure. Also, the bolts are really not rusty at all. Once the machinest comes next week, I'll report back on his findings. He is also a metal fabricator and he welds on location, so he can weld on a nut, or bolt, if he decides that is the best approach.
I think you found the right guy this time. This job is not difficult for any number of shade tree mechanics on this site who have done hundreds of bolts like this, but it's not the job you want to learn how to get out a broken bolt on. Do not try to drill them out all the way, and do not try to re tap the threads. How about a picture of the bolt you got out? And the hole it came out of. couldn't hurt, and might get some useful suggestions.
I'll be off site until tomorrow morning, but I'll upload a close up of the one successful bolt removed
I thought I would provide an update. The weather in the Northeast hasn't been so good, so I haven't been able to work consistently on this project. So far, I've been able to remove three bolts by drilling them until the walls are thin and then using a cold chisel to break up and remove the remaining metal. It has not been easy! The machinest that said he'd come by and help me with this never came by and now he tells me he's too busy. Can't rely on anyone here it seems. I had an idea today, so I drilled into one of the three remaining bolts and tapped it with a left-handed, reverse thread tap. I then screwed a bolt (also reverse thread) into the hole until it bottomed out. I thought I'd be able to back out the flywheel bolt this way, but it didn't budge; and as fate would have it, the bolt snapped, filling the hole. I then had to drill out the bolt inside the bolt (sigh). I don't know what happened, but these bolts are just fused into these holes and nothing seems to be able to loosen and back them out. Since I've been able to drill three of them out successfully (no damage to the threads) it looks like that's the only way to go, so I'll continue to go this way. It's painfully slow and extreme care needs to be taken to do it, but I'm out of options.
I certainly do not envy you , sounds like your getting the task done.
Seems like my drill bits are also not very good. I just ordered a set of really good ones. Hopefully that'll help!
Thanks for the update Michael. I wondered if the machinist took care of you. Sadly he probably didn't want to do a difficult and slow job like this one. Really good drill bits are hard to find these days. Have you considered a magnetic base drill ? Having enough room to use it may be a problem. They can be rented in some areas.
Rotate the pattern and Drill and tap a new set of holes in the crank end perhaps....
Or try drilling out with reverse cut drill bits. Get a size slightly smaller than threads. Sometimes the reverse drilling action will grab the threads and reverse them out.
In post #28, he said he was using a reverse cobalt. Micheal ; maybe consider removing the crankshaft and take to a machine shop for an evaluation. It would be a shame to put a lot of time and money in it only to have the last bolt hole ruined beyond repair. That would be my typical luck.
just one note about welding a nut on a broken stud- the ground should be attached to the nut to be welded onto the broken stud. in this application you do not want the ground current to go anywhere besides the nut you are welding. god forbid, the current goes through the crank bearings to the block or anywhere else. on machinery i've seen guys just clamp the ground to anything handy and thereby cause arcing through bearings and then after a few hours use, the bearing fails.
Hmmm, not familiar with a magnetic base dril . I'll look into it. Thanks so much
Yes. I noted in my post that I tried drilling a smaller hole into the bolt. I then reverse threaded it and screwed a #8 steel bolt all the way down. However, when I tried to tighten that bolt, rather than loosening the crankshaft bolt, the head of the reverse bolt just snapped off. These bolts are not ever going to be backed out. Drilling seems the only option no .
If all else fails, I'll be forced to pull the motor apart and remove the crankshaft. Then I could bring to a machine shop, or just replace it completely
If I was you, I'd keep looking for a competent repairman or welder who knows what he's doing. Or find a junk piece of scrap with frozen bolts, tighten the bolts till they snap off, then practice welding washers and nuts on them. And working them a bit at a time till they come out.
I'm sure welding would have got them out, but it seems that he just can't get someone out to it who is any good. Daft but that can sometimes happen. Drilling them out with a lot of care and picking the threads out is doing the job, slow and tedious but he's having success.
if you drill them out, sometimes I'll take a sawzall, or sabre saw, or hacksaw blade, cut the end down so it's just barely more than the teeth left, and cut through the shell of the bolt until you see the threads, just just taking the top off the outer threads. Do this twice about 90 degrees apart, pry out the small section, then collapse the big section and turn it out with a screwdriver.
double post
I can try this too. Be interested to see how challenging to cut through with only about 1-1/2" of depth to saw back and forth.
Once the holes are drilled - use a carbide burr to enlarge the holes till you can just see the threads. Then try to pick out the remaining bolt threads. Once you have exposed the first couple of threads - I use a combination of thread taps intermediate, bottoming & one that has been ground flat - zero taper. You could use mini burrs with a 1/8" shank to grind the slot instead of trying to use a saw in the hole - but, they break easy.....
All good suggestions. Thanks
They are great but not sure in your application.
Some interesting ideas from different people. Thanks to all of you. Never no when you need to pull a trick like that out of your sleeve. My first go to is still normally a stainless rod. This one on a Mack was extra challenging. Pulled this off without removing the turbo or anything else extra. Had to hold the stinger at the end and maybe somewhat with the lead. The square is key stock held by another person with vise grips. The socket is to protect the injector hole. Strike the ark on the stock or vise gripes and work down to the bolt. Then back up. Do not want to weld the bolt to the head. The heat helps on old rusty bolts and with locktite. Be warned that if it goes bad it can be really bad.
A magnetic base drill is big bucks, you could do just as well with a cheap little drill press, or the style that you clamp a regular drill to, then clamp it to some bars across the bellhousing so you're drilling straight in and centered.
Havin' a celebratory beer right now. Just got the 6th and final bolt out. What a project. These bolts were hard as heck! All of the threads seem to be intact. My method was to drill as close down the center as possible and then keep enlarging the bit size until the walls of the bolt were as thin as I could get them without hitting threads. Then hammering away with a cold chisel until they broke apart. I purchased a rebuilt torque converter for 300 bucks. I'd hate to put this all back together to find out it's damaged, so I'm changing it out. Worth the extra money. My biggest concern now is what caused this in the first place. How do the heads of six hardened steel bolts just sheer off and the flywheel break loose? Last thing I want to do is put it all back together to find it just happens again. Anyone know what could cause this?
Post some real close up photos of the broken bolts, and flywheel holes. Show the broken end of the bolts and any worn spot on the bolts or flywheel. This is a pretty unusual thing to happen. Flex plates crack and break all the time, that's what was suggested earlier. Broken flywheel to crankshaft bolts, I have no experience of, and won't even guess without seeing the bolts.
HOLES IN FLEX PLATE GOT ENLARGED BY LOTS WEAR, ONCE THE HOLES GOT SLOPPY THE FROWARD AND REVERSE MOTION SHEARED THEM OFF, ALSO THE BOLTS BECOME WORN IN THE FLEX PLATE CONNECTIONS
Congrats for being a patient man and for removing the bolts without damaging the crank, getting that last bolt out musta felt real good!
Pretty sure this is the flywheel to crankshaft bolts that broke.
Good call on replacing the torque convertor, Micheal. What did the hub look like when you found the broken bolts ? I would be suspicious of the old torque convertor causing the problem with the bolts. Unless someone before you had the the flywheel off for some reason and didn't torque the the bolts correctly. Like maybe over tightened them and stretched them beyond their limit. Yes, even a grade 8 bolts has its limits.
Cool! Glad you hung in there and got them all out!
Delmer, see images attached. I hope the flywheel can be salvaged, as a new one is not an option. I'd need to search for one from another machine that's out of service. Also, when I opened the box on the replacement Torque Converter, there's no flex-plate attached. The one I removed from the tractor had the flex-plate attached to it, so I assumed they came together. Now I need to try to get a new flex-plate to complete the set.
Personally not to worried about the crank if you can rethread the holes and knock the high spots off. Do not like the flywheel. Sometimes I find stuff like that from Alexander Tractor Parts in Texas.
I've driven a tap through all of the crankshaft holes to clean them out. They all seem to be in good shape. I have new bolts and have tested all of the threads and they're sound. Are you thinking the flywheel looks so damaged it's unusable? The side that faces the crankshaft has the damage. The Torque Converter side is clean.
I don't care for the way the flywheel looks either. I would defiantly take it somewhere that can check it for balance. If it can be balanced I would clean the flywheel until it was spotless. Then apply some Devcon epoxy in that groove and sand it down until it is nice smooth flange again. I would also use Loctite blue paste on the bolts. It is very good for filling imperfections in threads. It takes 24 hours to cure.
I would touch the end of that crankshaft with a piece of emery cloth. Just to make sure there isn't a burr around those bolt holes. Just a thought.
I'll follow both of your advice. Thanks so much for your guidance.
on the crankshaft i personally first would use a fine tooth flat file and use your thumb to put pressure in the middle of it to carefully and lightly file off the high burrs and then use emery cloth after. using the file will reveal and remove any burrs. if you can not find a good used flywheel and if the bolt holes in the flywheel are not worn, a good machine shop could take a light cut to true up the mounting face. just remember this will change the starter pinion engagement depth by the amount that is removed but it will likely be ok. also, the torque convertor engagement with the trans will be that much less but it should not be a problem. i'm talking only about .010"
What you are afraid of is something that locked up and caused the flywheel to shear off of the crankshaft. What you want to have happened, is the bolts were a bad batch from the factory, the gorilla who torqued them tripled the allowable torque, the stress was more than the bolts could handle and a couple let go, then the others cracked also, then the remaining ones failed suddenly. My guess is the two bolts on the right show the smooth arcing that would be typical of fatigue cracking. The rest are much harder to tell. If the transmission seems to turn fine by hand, maybe drain the oil and fish around in there for any major debris. I'm guessing a shift being off wouldn't do immediate damage to these bolts, repeated hard shifts sure could. I wouldn't worry too much about putting it back together the way it is. Get rid of the burs on the crank and flywheel, and go.
Michael have you checked the transmission oil pump, it is driven off the two lugs on the convertor. Because that convertor has been swinging around in there ,there is a far chance that the pump housing is damaged ,or the front bush is flogged out . At the very least change the seal in the oil pump
I thought about the transmission being locked, but not sure how to turn that by hand?
I was definitely wondering about this oil pump. Thought about maybe replacing it completely while I'm in ther . Not sure if there's any way to test it prior to reassembling.
you said you're going to replace the torque convertor? when you pull it off, you can look inside the pump for any obvious scoring on the back of the pump. but usually there is some clearance between the convertor and pump. and when the bolts broke, the convertor stopped spinning, so i doubt much damage could have occured. i wouldnt even have changed the convertor.
Regarding re-assembly. The (attached) document came with the rebuilt Torque Converter I purchased. I have no idea what "runout" is and/or how I should go about checking this. Thoughts are appreciated!
it means that the torque convertor when mounted to the engine runs true without a measurable wobble if you like at the end that goes in the transmission. you check it by placing the tip of a dial indicator on the smooth hub that goes into the transmission and rotate the engine observing the dial indicator gauge. The goal is to have no movement of the dial indicator needle but you are allowed a small tolerance But before you check the convertor run out you need to also check the flywheel and flex plate run out as well
Wowza. Nothing's easy, is it....
It's not that bad. There are probably some really good Youtube videos on checking runout. Nothing turns in an absolute perfect circle. The runout is simply a measurement of that imperfection.
Doesn't the converter have a center hub on it that self centers itself to the flexplate and crank?
Trust but verify.
I found a video, so I understand the process; thank you. Questions though: Let's assume the flywheel runout is too high. Is the solution then to machine the face of the flywheel until it is in spec? Also, when measuring the runout on the Torque Converter the dial indicator is to go on the "pump boss". Anyone know what this is?
Pump boss is the part that drives the transmission pump, ie the farthest part to the back usually. If it's off, you mark it, record it and move it 180 on the flywheel, then every position in between if needed.
Thanks Delmer. That would have been my guess, but wanted an expert to confirm. Pump "Boss"- such a funny name. Everyone on this forum has been so helpful. I don't know where I'd have found the answers to my questions if not for y'all! I owe everyone a beer, so if you're ever in the Lower Hudson Valley in New York State, I'm buying!
ROAD TRIP! As soon as this virus is over I say we all get together and take Michael up on this offer! On a more serious note, while checking the run-out of the crank face or flywheel be sure to hold pressure on the end of crankshaft so as to not let the normal end play screw with your readings!
Makes perfect sense Thanks.
Before you get too far along You might want to check the end play on your crankshaft to see if the thrust bearing is ok. Bob
Update: I finally got all the parts, including a replacement flywheel I found at a used equipment dealer in Pennsylvania. It appears that the holes in the existing flywheel were compromised (I had it evaluated by my local New Holland dealer). I began to bolt the flywheel onto the crankshaft torquing them down to the 160 ft. lb. specification when (as I was concerned about) the threads in one of the six holes in the crankshaft stripped before I was able to fully tighten them all. Five of the six held tight but, as luck would have it, one is bad. Rather than disassembling the engine, and replacing the crankshaft, I'm thinking of re-threading the one hole to the next larger bolt size and then bolt it on. I don't see any reason why this would be a problem, but does anyone have any thoughts on this? Perhaps it will throw the flywheel out of balance? The one concern I do have is finding a bolt of the same strength as the originals. I know they are Grade #8 bolts, but I'm not sure that all Grade 8 bolts are created equal (?). The flywheel bolts from the dealer cost $40 each, while I've found Grade 8 bolts online (yellow zinc) for about $7 each. Could the dealer markup be that high, or is there, perhaps, something special about the bolts from New Holland?
Here is what I did. Take it for what it's worth. Wife sheared the crankshaft to flexplate bolts on a Ford Explorer. I went to the industrial parts house and bought grade 8 bolts and installed. 10 years and 150K miles later all was still going well. On the question of balance. That one bolt being so close to the centerline of the shaft, I have to wonder if you would ever notice the imbalance if it were drilled and tapped to the next size up.
I'm thinking you're correct. Just looking for affirmation from those with more experience, so thanks for your thoughts. Do you have any insight into Grade 8 bolts? Do you think they are all the same? The ones from the dealer are stamped with "BB". I'm not sure if that means anything, but they are black versus the golden zinc #8 bolts that I find online.
Rather than go oversize, I would put a helicoil in it. I've probably installed a couple of hundred in my lifetime, with excellent results. I started to say they work good as long as you are careful, take your time, and follow the directions exactly, but heck, you just drilled all these bolts out. I have no worries on that score! That is impressive!
Really! I'd think the pressure load would be too great for this application?
I was editing while you were replying. I don't think so, I have had good results in similar situations.
Excellent! Thanks Mitch
i personally would try to stay away from plated bolts in this application. sometimes the plating makes the bolts brittle. i would try to find the black phosphate coated bolts ie from caterpillar. also, only buy genuine bolts as there are a lot of counterfeit capscrews out there. that's probably one of the reasons the oem specialty bolts are so expensive
Pay the dealer for an OEM bolt. You won't regret it. Anything else and you may regret it. IMHO ! Heli-coil is the only way to do it right. Especially when Mitch has had good luck with them.
Yes! flywheel bolts should be new OEM if available. In addition to special tempering, they frequently have a little different shoulder, or the head is different than standard capscrews.
I vote heli-coil and oem bolt!
I have 6 brand new bolts from the dealer at $40 each. Going with Mitch's helicoil suggestion will enable me to use these original (OEM) bolts. You guys are life-savers for a wet-behind-the-ears wannabe backhoe mechanic! Thanks all.
Bit late but heli-coil is certainly the way to go, you're doing it right this way. There won't be any balance issues and you are able to use the expensive OEM bolts for peace of mind at the same time.
I was concerned about using them; but thanks to the experienced people on this forum, I'm going in this direction. I just ordered a 5-pack online, along with a tap to thread the hole and a tool to insert them. I'm going to throw a party if/when I get this baby running!
160 ft/lbs sounds high. What size bolt are they?
9/16- 18 pitch and 2-1/8" in length
Getting the drill (and tap) dead square is probably the most important part - mess that up and you're in big trouble. You're probably an expert on drilling holes by now, but if in doubt a square chunk of steel with a hole drilled square by a pillar drill/mill/lathe etc can be used to sit in place and make sure your hand drilling works as it should. I don't enjoy installing helicoils, but they do work very well.
Good thought. Thanks
So, a question for you, were you torquing to spec dry or lubed, and if lubed with what. Here is a link to a torque chart and it makes a difference which kind of bolt and if dry or lubed. Looks like black oxide bolts should not be dry torqued. http://manuals.gogenielift.com/Parts And Service Manuals/data/Service/Stick Booms/SAE and Metric Fastener Torque Specifications.pdf Perhaps you tractor’s manual will have the correct torque specification.
Manual calls for 160 ft. lbs. I didn't see anything about wet vs. dry, so I didn't apply any lubricant. I also don't know what material the bolts are made from, I only know they are what New Holland provided for the installation of the Flywheel.
I have a question for the group here. I'm (finally) putting everything back together. Today I mounted the flywheel and checked the run-out on it and it was quite good (under .005"). Next is to mount the Torque Converter to the flywheel in order to check the run-out and on it and adjust as/if needed by rotating the drive plate. I have an instruction sheet that came with the Torque Converter that states "Check the run-out on the Pump Boss". I cannot find any reference to a Pump Boss in my shop manual and a Google Search results in nothing. Does anyone know *** a Pump Boss is so I know where to position the dial indicator? Any insight will be appreciated.
we went through this in an earlier post post #94
Ah, yes. Sorry. I did find it. Here's my confusion however (see attached image). This is the side that goes towards the transmission. The center piece has two tabs that lock into place, so that isn't an area where I can check the run-out. The only area I can place the dial indicator would be against the housing of the Torque Converter itself.
just beside the tabs on the snout
we're talking radial run-out
How stiff is the flexplate on this machine? I would imagine it's pointless to check runout since the converter hanging on the flexplate, wouldn't be stable and bounce around.
The flexplate is not terribly stiff in my opinion. Hard for me to know though, as I'm a novice with no other experience for comparison. The whole run-out thing on the Torque Converter doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One end of the TQ is securely mounted to the pump shaft on the transmission side and the other to the flex plate bolted to the flywheel. Thus, it's secured on both sides. How much wobble could there be, unless the flex plate is in really poor condition. The flex plate has spacers between it and the flywheel, and when it's tightened down to the flywheel it should remain pretty true, UNLESS the flex plate is really beat up. I'm putting on a brand new flex plate. I'm not sure I understand what role the flex plate is playing? It almost seems as if it's intended to be able to break away in the event something locks up to prevent major damage to other, more expensive components. Anyone know the answer to this?
the torque convertor 'floats' in the front of the transmission. remember, the engine crankshaft has endplay. unless there is absolutely perfect alignment between the engine and transmission housings and zero runout on the torque convertor snout, a flexplate is needed to compensate. also it will absorb a miniscule amount of vibration. that is why the manufacturer has specifications for maximum tolerances. also as crankshaft bearings wear, there could be minor movement there also. flexplates do flex if the runout is over spec although maybe only in a few thousandths of an inch. that's why they often crack and then fail. failure of the front transmission seal and convertor bushing (bearing) can be caused by excessive convertor misalignment. flexplates often crack around the bolt holes and require careful inspection any time the convertor is removed or the machine is split. such a simple piece, but such an important one. because your flywheel came loose, everything needs to be carefully checked and within spec. i don't remember if you have replaced the trans input seal and convertor bushing (bearing) but i would if it was me. when that flywheel came loose, i would be surprised if it didn't wallow out the bushing a bit. easier to change now than having to split it again later
Thanks for the thorough explanation- it really helps to understand better. I just finished mounting the TC to the flywheel and checked with Dial Indicator. It's well within spec at .005". Regarding the seal/bearing on trans side. They have not been replaced, but certainly willing to do so while I'm in here. Hopefully my manual will show me what part this is, as I have no idea. I attached a pic marked with what appears to be a seal? If this is the seal, is the bearing behind it? What tool is needed to remove this? Sorry for so many questions, but without you guys, I'm lost. I've had the machine for 3 years now and have never been successful finding someone local that is able and/ or willing to work on it, so I decided to jump in. I'm pretty clueless with this stuff, though I've successfully done quite a number of repairs to it. This is the most complicated I've taken on so far.
Michael you should have had that sorted by now that post was a while ago
Michael ; I removed this flex plate from my own backhoe. It was still turning the convertor. I had removed the engine for a major overhaul and had no idea the flex plate was on the verge of failure.
Michael ; I removed this flex plate from my own backhoe. It was still turning the convertor. I had removed the engine for a major overhaul and had no idea the flex plate was on the verge of failure. This should give you a good idea as to what they are designed to do.
Looks like there is a part number on that seal. Google it to see what you can find. You may just be able to look in behind the seal to see the condition of the bearing. More than likely its just Brass or copper sleeve bearing.
Mark, I apologize for the redundant inquiry. I haven't been able to work on this machine for many weeks and I'm just getting back to it. I had forgotten that I asked about it previously.
Per Mark250's suggestion, I purchased a seal and a bushing for the Transmission pump. It was a good call, because I believe the seal was indeed leaking, as there was quite a bit of oil inside the housing when I split the tractor. I replaced the seal, and that was an easy item to get out the old and insert a new seal. The bushing, however, I seem unable to remove. (see image attached) I want to make sure not to mar the inside of the shaft removing this seal, but it is in there pretty tight. Is there a method to this; or perhaps a specific tool for removing these? Once I replace this, I'm ready to begin putting the tractor back together.
How about this: https://www.amazon.com/OEMTOOLS-27128-Blind-Hole-Puller/dp/B0006307U4 That bushing looks beat!
That bushing doesn't look bad besides the few marks which won't hurt it. But that is not the main bushing you want to check . The other bushing is behind the seal in the pump housing.
That's from me trying to get it out!
But if you want to replace that bushing , you can try cutting it a little and maybe take a screwdriver and hammer and collapse it on itself. That tool above is nice, but a little pricey if you only use it once. Then take a socket the same size as bushing to drive the new one in.
Ah, the socket is a good idea to put the new one in. As for removing the old one, I've been hesitant to try cutting it, or hammering a screwdriver behind to collapse it for fear of damaging the inside of the shaft .
Then leave it alone. Just smooth out the marks you made. You need to check the other bushing behind the seal. That one holds the torque hub. Perhaps just shine a light behind seal to see if it looks OK. The bushing you're messing with just holds the turbine inside the converter.
Don't forget to put a little grease on the seal and hub before installing the converter.
The one behind the seal seems good.
Have you checked the end play on your crankshaft yet? Look in your service manual under crankshaft R&R for how to. Bob
Thanks Bob. I did indeed. It's .004"
You got it running yet?
No. Very slow going for me. I have so many other things going on that my time to work on this is quite limited. Right now I just need to pop the transmission pump back in and I'm ready to put the two halves of the tractor back together. That may be a challenge, but hopefully I'll be able to line everything up and get it together without too much difficulty. Then I still have to do quite a bit. All the hydraulic hoses and electrical wires have to be reconnected. Also have to reinstall the fuel tank and add the hydraulic fluid tank and fill up with all of the fluids. A lot of work still ahead, but I feel confident that it will run once again!
You insert the torque converter on the trans first. Then assemble trans to engine . Then bolt torque converter to flywheel through the bellhousing opening on bottom. You have to manually turn engine for each bolt.
Yes. I am aware of this. This is the part that seems as if it'll be a challenge!
I did this with my 555 last summer. It wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be, just takes a while.
Another question hopefully someone can answer. Pic attached for reference. The shaft that goes into the transmission has a gear on it AND the shaft on the pump also has a gear. Both of these have corresponding gears inside the Torque Converter. Do these two gears turn together, or are the independent with each able to turn separately? Also, should either of these be able to be turned by hand; perhaps the one on the pump turns freely?
If it's like other transmissions, the outer shaft is stationary. And the inner shaft turns and transmits power to rest of transmission.
the inner shaft(which turns) is the trans input which is splined into the impeller in the torque convertor. the outer splined hollow shaft is actually the stator support which is splined into the stator inside the torque convertor and does not move. the crescent pump in the front of the trans is driven by the tangs on the snout of the convertor.
Thank you for clarifying. The reason I ask this is there's a brass bushing inside the hollow shaft of the spline support, which I replaced with a new bushing. When I originally removed the pump, it slid out easily over the inner shaft (the one that turns the transmission). However, after replacing the bushing, it was a very tight fit and getting it to slide back over the inner shaft was quite difficult. Perhaps, once the inner shaft begins to turn, it'll scrape away a little of the bushing and it'll turn more easily. I don't know why it was so tight and that's giving me some concern.
Perhaps the edge got mushroomed a little bit when you pounded it in. Like you said, it will wear in.
i would make sure it is not tight before you go any further. on start-up it could seize to the shaft. there has to be room for lube. take a tiny hammer and tap all the way around the input shaft sideways thereby hopefully smoothing out the deformity (if there is one), otherwise you may have to remove the pump and burnish or 'size' the bushing
This is what I was afraid of. it's very tight. I had to pound it on with a hammer. Now removing the pump is going to be a problem. I should have stopped when I saw how tight it was.
This is what I was afraid of. it's very tight. I had to pound it on with a hammer. Now removing the pump is going to be a problem. I should have stopped when I saw how tight it was.
You pounded the pump on? That's not good.
You may as well get another new bushing and start over again. I would also suggest that you take the bushing to a machine shop and them make a proper driver for it. It would be similar to what is used to insert camshaft bushings in a block. Pounded on the pump ? Oh-oh !
I'd say I *** up! Helpful if I knew what I was doing
Were there seals on the stator shaft on the backside of pump? Maybe they got smashed.
No. Here's what happened. I should never have replaced this bushing. It's located inside the hollow shaft of the pump cover housing. It was suggested that I change the seal and the bushing while I had the tractor split apart. The seal was a breeze, but the bushing was very hard to remove and not much easier to put the new one in. It was tight, but I managed to get it in and it looked ok. Then, when I slid the whole assembly over the transmission shaft, it was extremely tight. I should have realized there was an issue and not proceeded further. A bad move, but I forced it all of the way on and bolted it down. Now I'm going to have to improvise to get this off. I'll probably have to replace the entire cover housing as I'm sure I'll ruin it getting it off. I'm thinking of threading two of the holes in the cover housing and then using bolts to tighten down and force it back out enough to get a gear puller behind it. Otherwise I'll be cutting it off with a dremel.
As it is, can you turn the input shaft?
Don't beat yourself up over it Michael. This is how we learn when we have no one next to us with experience helping. You are still saving yourself a lot of money rather then take to a shop and have it done. Keep in mind that when the new bushing is correctly installed it may need to be reamed for a proper fit. The lack of reaming may have been your problem.
Nope.
Not even with pliers and rag for protection?
I'm thinking not. I'll try tomorrow.
when i suggested changing the bushing, i was referring to the one behind the seal that is the one that the convertor snout runs in not the one inside the stator support
Been a while since I reported in, so I thought I'd provide an update; especially since this will be my last post to this thread. I'd like to thank everyone that responded to my questions and for all of the help you provided me. I could not have gotten through this project without the knowledge and advice from this group. The above said, I finally managed to get the transmission pump off the shaft, but not without destroying it. It was on so tight that I needed to cut it off with my dremel tool. Needless to say I had to get a new pump (another $250). After sliding the new pump in place, I was able to put everything together without too much trouble and the machine started right up and purs like a kitten! I'm now in the process of replacing all of the hydraulic hoses, as most are in pretty bad shape. Then I'll grease this baby up and put her to work!
Thanks for the update Michael ! It took a lot of time and work, but you stayed with it and did it right. I would have liked to see the smile on your face the first time you started it up.
That's a great feeling, isn't it? I have been doing this as all or part of my living for 35 years, and every time I do major work on a machine, I never expect it to run again. I have only had one that didn't, an old, old Onan on a welder.. It ran poorly when I took it apart, and didn't run at all when I put it back together. It didn't take the guy I gave it to 15 minutes to fix it.
It did indeed feel good Mitch. I was admittedly a little nervous turning the key for the first time. I can't say I have much mechanical experience, so this was a bit overwhelming when I began. Now that in done I'm like "that wasn't so bad"!.
even a lot of experienced guys like me sometimes get nervous when we hit the starter after a major repair. did i forget to tighten something? did i miss something?, etc. even if you use a checklist. likely more so if the machine has been apart for a long time. consistent work habits help to alleviate some of that, especially the older you get.
And I'm old!!!
To some, old is just a state of mind
I'll bet you I am older ! Age is just a number. It's all about how you feel and your attitude.
Hmmm. I keep telling myself that!
I am probably not as chronologically old as some of you, though I am not young. What worries me is the fact that some days I am very old.