Hey All - I posted this as a reply to an existing thread in the dozer section, but no replies so I thought I'd try here. I'd like to ask for input regarding using a track loader to clear trees, versus a dozer or excavator. I'm in central Texas and my property, about 25 acres, is completely overrun with Huisache (Wee-Satch) trees. They have zero value and are a major nuisance, full of thorns and nasty to clear by hand. The majority of my trees are in the 2 to 6 inch diameter range, but there are a handful that are 10 inches or more. The tallest is about 20 feet. The average is probably 10 to 15 feet. They have to be ripped out by the roots or they re-grow. If you just cut them, you have to spray the cut stump with Remedy to kill the plant. The soil is black clay with a lot of flint rock anywhere from golf ball to softball size. I've cleared about 5 acres with a JD farm tractor and a 3-point Turbo Saw, but man is that slow going. I also have a 3 point tree puller and I can pull most anything that is about 5 inches or less, but again, very slow going. I've been doing a lot of research all over the net & forums. Until I got onto the Heavy Equipment forum, I did not know that some guys were using tracked loaders to clear trees, but it makes sense. I'm weighing having a contractor come do the work versus making an equipment purchase. I'm leaning towards purchase because I'm sure that I can always find other stuff to do with the equipment, like cleaning out an existing pond, making new pond, lift heavy stuff on the farm, etc... For you guys who have experience clearing property similar to mine, what's your experience and advice specifically as it relates to track loaders? Can you get under the roots of a 10 inch diameter, 20 foot tall tree and uproot it? Thanks - Christopher
In addition to the thread you posted to in the dozer forum, there is a good one to read in this forum about using track loaders in clearing land. HeavyEquipmentForums And welcome to the forum, there's a wealth of experience and knowledge on the forum pages. I joined with a similar reason as you.
My personal experience would suggest a mini digger/excavator. I've owned dozers, tractors, excavators large and small, wheeled and tracked SS'es. I find the excavator to be my "go to" machine. You mentioned you already have a tractor does it have a FEL? I have used my excavators for digging, stump/tree removal, logging, clearing snow, installing septic systems, well digging, mowing lawn around ponds, and even engine removal and replacement(I'm sure there is more that I can't think of). Don't get me wrong tracked SS'es are good machines and whatever you decide needs to work out to your lifestyle. Just remember sometimes there may be something that could work out even better. You mentioned root/tree removal plus possibly dredging out a pond, that's why I think you'd be better of with an ex. I use a 6000lb machine now, not big by any means (not really even midi size). I've been taking down 25"+ diameter oak and other trees by the roots. I built a ripper attachment and IMO it does a good job in a decent about of time. There are a bunch of questions you'll need to ask yourself : budget, what work is needed, budget on maintenance, hauling, size, and so on.
I'm not sure about those Huisache trees you have down there in Texas but up here in Virginia I've "rooted" about 20 acres so far of a patch of land that had been timbered several years ago and regrew with a ton of poplars, oaks and pines. I bought a CAT 941B and equipped it with a root rake. The gent I bought it from down there in Texas (Cleveland) said he'd only heard of one or two others putting a root rake on a loader (primarily they are used on bulldozers) but once I gave him the measurements he built it and shipped it up here. So far it works pretty good. Takes up 4-6 inch trees/roots with no problem. For the bigger stumps that were left over from the cut I "cut" around the stump to dig up/break the outlying roots then use one of the edge teeth to pop it. Takes a little while and some are harder than others. The poplars are a pain in the ***, since they seem to regrow from the stump and the roots stretch pretty far. I've come to calling them aliens because once they come out they look like something out of a science fiction movie. maddog is on target, you have a number of decisions to make. Mine was primarily made considering my budget. I could have hired someone but I'm pretty sure it would have cost me more even considering the nearly $6k I just put into it for undercarriage repair/replacement. Here's a picture of the rig
That's a nice looking machine dmcschultz! Several reasons we got a track loader. Even though we would've very much liked a dozer for some of the things we did. Had some land cleared by a contractor many years ago. The guy clearing had a D4 or D5 and a 951. He used the 951 for clearing and said he preferred it over the dozer for taking down trees. Figured he would've cleared and piled with the 951 and cut the ditches with the D4, but he never mobilized the dozer. Did it all with the 951. It was very impressive for its size. That's what planted the track loader seed in my mind. Also more recent before we got our loader, saw a neighbor with a TD-15 or TD-20 try to take down a big hardwood. He spent and hour or more building a ramp and digging a hole to get it down. Granted it may have taken a while with the loader, but most of the time could have been spent on digging around the tree since the loader comes with built in leverage. Pros Leverage on trees. This is huge. Many other uses we've experienced (hauling fill to specific areas, picking up rock, hauling demo'd material, man lift [i didn't say that], knock low limbs off, hoist for various things) With good teeth you can use it as a rake Digs very well and quickly Breakout on bucket makes popping root balls out easier Cons Narrower vs dozer makes it not so good on steep hills. Bucket is narrower vs dozer blade so rocks and limbs like to exit the push Less traction than a dozer. Track pads are typically narrow with less aggressive grousers vs dozer wider and aggressive. There are exceptions if you can find one that's been modified or DIY. Rigid frame - ride is rough and the bucket cut is on the angle of the machine. Little harder to grade. This can be learned, but I haven't quite mastered it yet. Use your tractor and blade to cleanup, you'll be fine. I'm sure others will think of more. Track loaders seem to be priced a little cheaper since most contractors don't use the old ones. But you can count on paying 40% premium for the unexpected repairs. Consider it stupid tax as Nitelite calls it. Also, one other thing, go as big as you can afford. I wouldn't argue that an excavator with thumb is hands down best. It just wasn't in our budget.
For what you're describing, fairly small trees and brush, a dozer would be the better bet. Keep the blade close to the ground and it will pluck most of it right out of the soil. A track loader tends to just push the small stuff over, and you end up pushing up a lot of dirt to try and get it all. A dozer would handle the 10 inch trees you're talking about, if it is just a handful, and if you're careful. But you still have to pile it all up and burn it, which is where the excavator or the track loader shine. A track loader with a 4 in 1 bucket is a great option as well, and gives you the option of a dozer blade or the bucket, and allows you to clamp on to the trees for stacking or to shake the dirt loose. I've cleaned up a lot of land, and the truth is, there is no one machine that is "best for the job". Dozers are great on the small stuff, track loaders and excavators on the bigger stuff. Excavators are extremely versatile, but again, not great on the small stuff. It all depends on the situation. I own a 955 and the track loader has always been my favorite. But I'm getting ready to start on a 50 to 60 acre job that is very similar to what you are describing, mostly 2 to 4" stuff, and I'm looking around for a D4 or maybe even a D3 to buy. You would probably be money ahead to pay someone to do it for you. They can probably make quick work of it. But I agree with everyone else.....that's definitely not as much fun! Good luck.
Thanks everybody for your replies. I dug up a pic of the trees. This is pretty representative of the size and growth density of the majority of the property. There are few areas where the trees are larger, but not by too much. For perspective, the top of the JD 6403 tractor is right at 11 feet. I thought maybe showing the actual property to be cleared by fine tune some of the recommendations.
They seem to be about the same as some of the holly's and poplars I have on my place. How are the roots, relatively straight down or spreading. Here's a picture of one of the poplar roots, the section protruding to the left in the picture is actually a root, the stump is in the center.
Welcome to the Forums christophercale!:drinkup First of all I'm a track loader guy and if I had only one piece of equipment to make a living with it would be my 953C. Jack of all trades and master of most, if one knows it's full ability. I'm not familiar with your tree species but if that property and those size trees were in my area I would use the loader to clear it and leave the dozer and excavator at the yard, the excavator would be useful but we're talking about only one piece of iron. The right loader could clear and grub it much faster than a similar sized dozer. A loader can push the trees over, grub the stumps and stack the brush with minimal dirt if you know what you are doing. The benefit the loader has over a dozer is the teeth and the lift height. A dozer can be fitted with a root rake but a dozer with a rake can't roll brush then back drag it, roll it again in order to sift the dirt out and stack it in a tight pile. An excavator can do all the above but it will be slower due to it's mobility compared to a loader. Now I'm basing my opinion on a 953C which is faster than older power shift loaders.
DMC - There's a tap root, but they also spread out quite a bit. Here's a few pics of one that I pulled out with my tree puller. The largest one in these is pics is maybe 5 to 6 inches in diameter. Christopher
Thanks for the welcome and the great info. I'm blown away by the wealth of info and insight on this forum. I'll be here quite a bit before I make any final decision. Christopher
Your welcome, that's what we're here for. I might have missed it but what is your budget?
I would consider a Caterpillar 977L, see attached link, http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=10793461 The machine was owned by J. H. Reid from South Plainfield, NJ, is in very good condition, comes with the clearing rake and a standard bucket. The price is a little high, the dealer paid $10,000 for it on Iron Planet. I have a 977L and it is great for clearing trees and brush up to 36" diameter, push them over and cut the stumps off.
CM1995 - I need to keep the budget at $35K or less..... I'm sure that will limit my options.
I am a crawler loader fan. I have a JD450C and with the bucket and it is good. I have an attachment Schutt Marvel Digger that replaces the bucket and is great for digging out trees by the roots. It is similar to a stump bucket for a skid steer but is a little wider, more round and open in back where dirt can pass through. I am not sure if the company is still in business or not but I have 3 different sizes and purchased them in the '70s. A lot of nurseries purchased the smaller size diggers to harvest trees and shrubs before the hydraulic tree spades were popular. If the ground is not too dry I can "scoop" under a tree, rip it out and dump it on the ground and most of the dirt will break off. I'll try to get a picture of it in a few days.
Here is a pic off the internet of the Schutt Marvel Digger I have one just like this for my skid steer and 2 larger that fit my JD450
Track loaders are the single most underrated piece of heavy equipment out there. If track loaders were designed for anything, its land clearing. The problem is that you need an operator to really see their effectiveness. Their ability to lift 8 ton and apply hp to the ground like a dozer makes them trees worst enemy. If it were my job to do I would use a 953 w/ a 4n1, or I'd use a d6 and up, preferable a hydraulic tilt, angle blade machine.
Yea, a machine like that seems like it may really fit the bill. I suspect I'll have to shop local however, due to trucking costs. I'm guessing $4K to $5K to ship that distance.
You can probably find a decent 953B in that price range. The B's are tough old machines with minimal electronics which is a plus. The single lever bucket control is easier to operate than a 2 lever. $35K will give you some room if you find a good machine that might need an undercarriage or other items. A friend of mine has a mid '90's 953B and it's stronger than my C model. Here's a few - http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...b&manu=caterpillar&mdlx=exact&bcatid=4&pref=0
If you have a Cat or a John Deere dealer, or an equipment rental company (United Rentals, Sunbelt, etc) in your area, you might take a little bit of that budget and rent a small track loader for a day or so, and try it out. If it's not what you like, swap it out for a small dozer. For $1000 to $1500 you can figure out what you want and get some work done in the process. That's a reasonable investment to be able make up your own mind rather than spending $20,000 to $30,000 based on everyone else's opinion.
Yep, that's an excellent idea. There are many rental places close by. I'm right between Austin and San Antonio. I've been pricing rentals already and will probably do a week rental on something before I decide to purchase.
Been poking around here for the past couple of days because I just grabbed a Deere track loader (first tractor) and wanted to gain a few pieces of knowledge outside of the manuals. Like the OP I am in Central Texas and needed something to help clear cedars. I looked at some tire/rubber backhoe units but after speaking with a few folks in the area that have cleared cedar around here before, I was instructed to go with a track loader. So a re-iteration... This is my first tractor/machine/unit and I have never driven anything of nature in any past lives so needless to say, I am ignorant on several of these conversations and I would pretty much explain my operating ability as "horrible" or possibly worse. Even with that, for the past few days I have been popping cedars (some quite vast and large) out of rocky and sloped terrain with what I would describe as terrific success. Fortunately my (new to me) track loader has the 4in1 bucket and after utilizing that for a couple of days, I dont see how track loaders would ever be without them. An additional fortunate piece for me is that the unit I acquired has a backhoe so it may offer some additional utility down the line if needed. My little piece of dirt is only a few acres and with how things have gone for the past days, it looks like this machine is going to do it's job in about 1/4 of the time I was originally planning so it's time with me as a buddy may be shorted. I think that with the trees and terrain here in the area, a track loader is the way to go hands down but this is a statement from someone that has never had anything else. The 4in1 bucket is absolutely amazing. Thanks so far to the members here with helpful posts and best of luck to the original poster in the search.
Revilo - What model unit did you purchase?
just be careful with the 4in1 that you bite evenly on both side and not twist the clam or you will break it
Where are you located? Get shipping quotes, it weighs 25 tons and is just under 8.0' wide and 10.0' high
See if you can rent the unit you are looking to purchase. Some dealers do and some don't, of course your individual sellers probably won't do it. The larger dealers offer RPO (rental purchase option) that allows you to convert a % of the rent to the purchase price of the machine if you choose that route. I've used RPO many times with my Cat dealer. It works out well as you "earn" the down payment. However your price range and age of machine will limit the option for an RPO as the dealers will have newer more expensive machines in the program. If you rent a newer machine and like how it operates, buying an older machine will not be the same comparison but it will give you a baseline to start with.
455G Very helpful, I will certainly be cognizant of this recommendation. Much appreciated.
I'm in Marion, Texas. However, I'll be looking for units within a day's drive that I can go physically inspect. Odds are really low that I'll ship one more than 200 to 300 miles.
For 2-4 inch trees the clamshell has been absolutlely killing the cedars. I am not sure about how the huisach trees are root wise but whatever you get, make sure it has the clamshell from my perspective. It will also work great on the smaller specimens because with the clamshell open you can use the back of the bucket like a dozer blade in a loose sense. Today I just dozed down a group of small cedars on the way to push out some 10"+ trees. I just havent got the feel for back filling and smoothing out yet. I dont have the ability to PM yet from forum regulations (good system BTW, may look at implementing this on the V-Bull board for which I help moderate) but if you can shoot me a message with phone number or email and I will give you a shout to discuss further if you would like. It may be worth you checking out the ability of something like the set up I grabbed and I am only about an hour and a half north of you.
I run several cat track loaders here in Lockhart Texas. We do everything with them 1. Clear trees/brush & stockpile/burn 2. Pad out commercial foundations 3. Fine grade parking/drive areas 4. Load dump trucks 5. Dig tanks/lakes 6. Cleanout silt in tanks/lakes 7.Demolition of all types 8. Build roads. With the right operators anything is possible with Cat rear engine track loaders.
Welcome to the Forums Revilo! :drinkup Thanks for the compliments, we try to do our best here at HEF. Same here.:thumbsup
I do a lot of clearing in Brenham Texas area with the 977L track loader and it has no equal in the brush. But after dealing with a lot of huisach in the black gumbo clay we have A 30,000 pound track hoe with a thumb is the best way to deal with them especially if there thick.you can walk around and just pluck them out. True they will need to be raked afterwords with dozer because piling with the track oh is slow. Huisach is the nastiest trees you can get into and I've tried it all. The biggest problem with a track loader is you pull a big chunk of ground up for small trees, don't get me wrong I love the track loader and excels at many jobs but huisach isn't its best. Just my humble opinion...
I am not familiar with huisarche trees but it sounds similar to the mimosa trees we have here.
When they are small they are very limber and just push over if anything smaller than 2-3 inch but have a hugh root system with runners than are often as long or longer than tree is tall. The bigger huisach are the easier they are to deal with. If size is less than 3inch, is consistent,and they are growing thick enough we tend to root plow and rake up with dozers. That's why my vote is for a track hoe. Pull them out and drop them right where they are simply driving over them since they lay pretty flat once down. Work in strips back and forth across area. I guess you could stack immediately in piles with hoe but in all my times I've had best luck raking with dozer. You will disterb the least amout of ground and have far less dirt in piles(this applies to Texas black gumbo clay) with track hoe method.
Would like to try and push some bush around with my 973c, tricks i have learned in the back alleys doing excavations would be fun to push them trees, use the teeth and blade segments, get the tree between the tooth and blade, then turn hard in either direction going forward, with tilting the bucket down to bind the tree in between, should pull it right out. That's what i do with the telephone pole anchor wires that get paved over in the lanes. Also did that with an old 6" steel conduit between two teeth. As well as all the re-bar in the concrete driveways we cut.
id vote track loader
Not to hi-jack the thread but I have a question for Precision Dirt. Have you tried a CTL with a large tree shear so snap the huisach off even at the ground and follow immediately with a heavy dose of Remedy and Diesel mix?
We have and it works with the scattered huisach where spot spraying can be done on a utility vehicle. It works well with a good kill rate. Where a the problem is that the large ones say 4-5" plus, the root system is so big that even if you kill the tree stump itself rarely can you kill all the roots and they will sprout from there for months to come. I battle these things often in central Texas and if they are thick and small, we root plow then rake. If thick and larger(4"plus) a track hoe walking in a strait line pulling trees and let them fall where they will, rake after. The ONLY WAY to get rid of huisache completely is a stout broadcast spraying of remedy or Cimmeron max within 1-3 months after grubbing dependent on season/ weather. I've had customers that I cleared for and recommended spraying and they refused. Huisache had taken back over completely in 18 months. It's some nasty stuff.......
Does it help at all to spray the tree's ahead of time, allow the tree to take the chemical into the roots and after the whole tree is dead, then grub them out and pile them up? I've seen those tree's before, but never grubbed them before or had to deal with them, sounds very similar to willow's and trying to kill them off. Sounds like you need some soil applied chemicals once the grubbing is done, that translocate into the soil and root zone and do this for a few years after the land is cleared, kind of how we deal with willows in my area, use bat wing mowers to keep the top growth off and continue with chemicals till nothing grows back, then continue on for a few more years and get grass growing to compete with the brush. I'd vote a track hoe with thumb, and a track loader to shove the stuff to the excavator, use the excavator to pile it up and burn it all, my first machine on any clearing job is a hoe with thumb, second is the track loader, and seldom do I ever take a dozer unless the stumps are so large, a track loader can't move them or the ground is so wet, a loader sinks like a rock and something with wider pads are needed to get around the site with.
We have Honey Locust around here, great oily hardwood if you can get close enough to cut them down. Spikes run from soil to tip of each limb and range from a crown of thorns look to serious daggers. If you drop one the sprouts from the root mass invade as fast or faster than the parent and even at that as the trees age they send up sprouts off the roots so we set Tordon RTU or Triclopyr to the fresh cut stumps, they suck it in and kills all.
What type of attachment do you use to pull with the excavator? Bucket? Grubber attachment?
Sorry guys haven't been on in awhile... I mainly use a narrow bucket with a 3 in tooth spacing. I have used a grubber and while it works well I seem to pull a lot more of the shallow long feeder roots out with bucket instead of cutting them off. We have only a few honey locust here and there and D Miller is right. They look like something out the gates of hell. Randy your right on point with your root engaging scenario. It takes a couple of years to spray huisache out. I personally have never sprayed before grubbing and reason why is my dad used to spot spray small huisache out on his property and leave them sit sometimes up to maybe 6-8 months then go grub them out with whatever was handy. Always seemed like as soon as he grubbed it out another would pop Up in a month within 15 ft. My thoughts were it was spouting out of the broke root. Now if he cut it off at ground level with clippers. Nothing..... Explain that???
I have been clearing my land with a track loader, a 977. It has been great. However, I ran into a problem. Like others have said-small trees are a problem. The trees 3-4'' just lay over and go between the teeth and you can't tear them out. But if you lay them all down in one direction and turn around and drag the teeth the other way, they'll usually pop out or sometimes break. However, we have a batwing mower that'll mow down trees up to 5", but obviously won't rip out stumps.
I shove trees over like that all day long with a our Bobcat T300 and Erskine Extreme Grapple. What the root ripper doesn't rip out I just clamp the grapple on them and yank them out roots and all. Of course we're talking dirt or clay that's moist to fairly dry. 10 inch trees just hit the tree about 5 to 7 feet with the bucket pushing on it and keep pressure on it all the way past center letting it fall to the ground. If it's stubborn give it a couple shots around and watch it at the bottom. Take the corner of your bucket and get a bite of the roots lifting it and work it loose. Then go back to step 1 and 99.9% it's going down. Anyhow that's how we do it here in Illinois with smaller trees up to a foot in diameter, now when you get into big Oaks and Sycamore it's excavator time. Good luck!
Is that what happened to the truck in the picture under your name? lol
You guys maybe have saved me a bunch of time and money! I was going to buy a D9H dozer(Big Ole Girl) and just plow through my cedar infestation and mow them over, roots and all. I have a link belt 240 xl and it is a great pics of cedar demolition, but real slow. As they say excavators are made to dig not travel fast as dozers, which I have found to be true! I like the 977 idea and so far have found some really below the cost of the D9H. I see now how the 977 can definately do the job in our sandy ground. Thanks again to the Knowledge on here that definately saves a beginner like me a bunch of heartache! Heck that D9H weighs over 100,000 these 977s weigh a lot less. I will have to learn how to build roads through my ranch with them which one guy on here said could be done. This makes my day!
X 5 or 6 on the track loader. I’ve done a bit with a 963 with 4 in 1 and rippers and on small to medium trees I can’t see a quicker way, as long as you can pile and burn.
I have been on this forum like to you a very short time. In this short time I have gained a lot of knowledge about what I need and what works best. All these guys are right on, they all have different way of going about each project based on their machinery or availability to the machine they need for each project. I have a 240 LX excavator (Link Belt) that I first bought a year ago. I have cleared over 700 acres of my 1500 acres with it. I would not change a thing except I need another machine to speed up this project. I have a D9H dozer in my sights that would go through the heavy forests and pluck them out in 15 foot swaths. Only problem is the mechanic I sent to inspect it found a cylinder down in it and the owner just wants to replace that cylinder and all that goes with it instead of doing the whole motor rebuild. I can’t trust a machine like that without the whole engine gone through. So now I have been advised to find a 377L track loader or a 353 or a 363 to speed up my long and gruesome project. If I were you with just 5 acres I would definately go with the midsized excavator. They are beasts when plucking trees out of the ground and stacking them. I did 5 acres of o overpopulated cedars in about 2-3 hours. You can too. I would rent one for 5 acres if it were mine knowing what I know now. You will be impressed with all the roots on top of the ground waiting to be burned! Buy or rent the biggest you can afford, makes a lot of difference. Good Luck! Honky Cat
Ran a 963B or two for close to two years, awesome machines, as to speed, power and strength, yet to with that is fuel consumption. Not any less than a good Excavator with a Thumb attachment and to speak up not any faster either.
Thanks DMiller: I need more speed than my excavator. It is faster than I am telling but I do not increase the throttle where it would really test the hydraulics, final drives, temperature, etc. Thanks Honky Cat