I have dug several basements in the past 10 years or so and while digging one out the other day I thought I wonder if my method is the same as others or do they do it different . The end result being the same , I know to some it don't really matter how you do it as long as its on grade. My method: I strip all topsoil in the area plus the 3' over dig. Basically I put the topsoil in one pile to be used for septic backfill or yard. Then I start cutting one side to the other , first cut along the side all the way to the other opposing wall , then cut a half bucket wide till you reach across to the opposing wall until you get to the wall being perpendicular with the one you started on. Take that medium type soil into another pile , start another cut , cutting about 12 to 15 inches per basically like digging it out in layers. When you get to the hard pan clay put it in yet another pile. If this makes any sense to anybody. Usually it takes me about 16 hours with a 953 to dig a 8'10" deep basement about 1800 square feet. I have had some complaints about it taking too long , but I think its necessary to separate the soil types to prepare for backfill and finish grade. I see a lot of them basically ram out a hole not saving topsoil , doing it in 10 to 12 hours. My thoughts are save what topsoil is there , its cheaper than buying it and hauling it in. I'm not gonna change my way or procedure unless someone replies with a better method , I am open to anything. I wonder if I'd be better off not giving a crap and just ram out a hole like some others. I do know when I backfill , I have pre-planned by putting dirt where I need it while digging the hole , its faster then. Pay me now or pay me later type thing.
Dickjr, it looks like you have a good method of digging basements. Always save the topsoil and separate it, as you said it's expensive to haul in. Don't know about your area but a 18CY load of topsoil here will run $300-400. 3-4 extra hours with a 953 is $360 to $480 at our rates, a wash if they have enough topsoil and if they need more than one load you're saving them money - if you didn't separate it the cost would come at the back end. Don't know your soil conditions so no comment on the 2nd strip and stock layer. We have some soil conditions that are not topsoil and not good for structural fill either, running underneath the topsoil layer anywhere from 6-18" deep. Other areas have little topsoil and what's underneath is structural material, just depends on where your digging.
You are doing it right, who is complaining homeowners or builder? Some times you just can't get people to understand a few hundred now can save thousands later.
Our soil varies as well. This particular job has about 14" of nice dark topsoil followed by a lighter color or dirt that is loamy followed by clay that conforms to the bucket when you dump it. I like to backfill with the lighter color and use the hard pan for building drive or backfill garage as long as we have plenty of time to settle. I also like to strip around the house and save that topsoil then when its framed and ready to backfill use the worst soil first then the better soil followed by the topsoil. This helps yards from heating during summer as you probably know. I'll get some pics tomorrow or this. Topsoil in my part of the country is scarce. It has to be trucked 20 miles or more at times.
Your procedure makes sense to me. I always try to save the topsoil whether I'm digging utility trenches with a mini ex or building ponds with a track loader, that stuff is expensive around here to haul in if you waste it. At $30/yd here its about $70 every-time you heap the bucket on a 953. So if you only strip two buckets an hour its paying for the machine time and then some. On the topic of digging basements I've got a few questions I'd love to throw in. I know we don't usually post prices so are you digging them on an hourly rate, contract price, or $/sq ft? I've pushed a lot of trees, cleaned out lots of ponds and built many more but haven't got the opportunity to dog a basement yet. Thanks John
The basement I finished today was a bid job at 2400$. I usually price them at 1$ per square foot and .50c for the walk out but that's going out the window. Probably go up a quarter or more per foot. It's funny how people fuss about spending 2000$ digging a basement , then spend 12,000$ on a counter top. I am getting away from working too cheap , some jobs I know I was to cheap on. At the same time I'm not going to rip anyone off , but I'm getting older and that being said my knowledge should be worth a little as well. Just like saving topsoil , they fuss about spending 4 to 6 hours stripping it , but don't realize it saves them money as it is already onsite.
Thanks for the info. I was using the hourly rate I use as an estimate base against the hours you posted and it wasn't looking real profitable by the time I deducted a trucking bill and fuel. I'd love to try one but haven't got my foot in that door yet and really didn't know how to even price it. Thanks John
I had 15.3 hours in the 2400$ basement , so it was somewhat profitable. But I had to put a written bid on it and had I done it by the hour it would have been little over1900$. At any rate they didn't get hurt , I made a little more on the hour and I have a cooler of beer and a 4 o'clock tee time today
Dickjr, what do your charge for mobilization? We're at the same rates for a 953C by the hour.
It was eight miles away so about 100$ to mobilize , no de-mobilization that's on the next guy.
Just curious is that included in your total cost or is that an addition. My trucker charges me $125 per move for anything within about 40 miles and I charge that in addition to whatever work I bill. John
I included the mobilization , but it was more work then just the basement , cut in drive way install water service , strip topsoil around house. My total bill was pushing 6Gs by the time all was done. Sometime I think I'm to soft on people , but at the same time someone else will do it at cut throat rates.
The 125 is cheap for a inside 40 mile move. I have my own hauling equipment so I can move the minute I decide too, we also always have several jobs going on at any time and are constantly moving something. I would think it costs me at least 125 per move by the time you add all the costs up with trucking equipment. The only thing for us is the convienence of being able to do it right away without waiting on a trucker....I
If it's hourly work, then the mob is an add on. Bid work the mob is included. I hire out all my mob'ing for now but as JB said, it's becoming a hassle depending on others to move your equipment.
I agree $125 is cheap. I can't own a truck and trailer for that, but it would be handy to move whenever I wanted to. I greatly appreciate you guys and your input, I got into this business knowing very little about the procedural or estimating side of things. Its nice to hear how other people do things and see that I'm on the same track. I started my business with my skid steer but my 953 has made my business. Thanks guys John
I bought a tandem dump and trailer to move my 53's. Getting my cdl and driving my rig for the first few times was the same feeling that I got when I first got my license at 16. I love the freedom of being able to move my stuff when I need it moved. The extra maintance and insurance cost is worth every penny.
Most of the builders in this part of the world want all jobs to be hourly rate so they can ride in and put the hurry up on you. Which is one reason I got away from house builder work. Hard to clear any $ at hourly rate.
I think you have a great method of digging your basements and you are extremely fair priced! Most people in This country seem to have lost there mentality when it comes to the proven fact that you get what you pay for!!!! l Most hauling guys want at least 200 to move my 953 no matter how far it is. On top of that other companies are running there 953's clearing and digging basements for $100 an hour on residential work around hear. Haha I'm in business to make money..... I leave my loader sitting before I run it that cheap! I've been waiting and waiting for these other guys to go belly up when they have there first big break down at that price!
Excavator near to me did my road while the Allis was laid up, he charged $150/hr for D6H, I considered that more than fair, asked about a basement dig and was quoted $4800, seemed a little high but with fuel costs I can see the need. I almost wish I had hired him, have hit broken flint with my Allis while digging the hole, will scratch it out but is quite a PITA!!
Couldn't agree more, my 953 won't leave the yard for less than $125 an hour.
Bump usually try to get $150 for either one of mine don't always get it but that's what I shoot for:usa
It should be $150 here but too many of them out running. I don't run mine by the hour very often, it's usually on a contract job.
I've been telling customers $600 on the half day $1200 on the whole most have been OK with it........ What's going rate for a triaxle load of fill dirt delivered in your neck of the woods?
It depends on the type of material and how much. I rarely need one load on the projects I do. If it's a fill site I'm normally looking at 500 CY or more, so we're loading it out of a pit, with trucks by the hour. Depending on haul time, I price it out around $9-10 per CY for 16 expanded CY of material. Of course that can vary greatly. Average cost of fill per load at the pit with us loading is $10-15 per load. If it were one load, it's $150-250 a load depending on where it's going. This would be fill loaded at the shop, not a pit.
Dead on target me likey:notworthy:drinkup
I am getting 1" clean rock for $250+/- truck load, been offered $200 truckload for dirt on the pile, no idea cost delivered. This is my foundation cut, sod/topsoil to its own pile, cleanest dirt from cut to cement truck ramps and final dregs pile from bottom of hole including rock(s) to another for first backfill loads.
DMiller , Perspective is hard to read sometimes by these pictures. But it looks like your going in the right direction. It also looks to be digging out pretty well. I would think soil conditions might be a little better where you are just looking. When are you planning to pour and how deep will you be in the high corner?
Pour has started, 1890sf. High corner will be to the upper right in the photo. 9 foot walls, 18" reveal.
I can make a lot more out of this one. Looks like you have some type of rocky material at 4' or so. Actually looks more familiar than I thought. We have the same type rocky material here. I always liked a nice long walkout .
Looks good Dmiller. Why are the front footings formed and the rear walkout footings trench cast? Usually all you see in my area is trench cast footings.
Formed footers are sitting on base rock 1" minus to cushion on the solid rock bench beneath, we got thru the flint shelf had just under 2 foot of red clay/stone mix and found the hill core, that demarcation line is actually close to 5 1/2 to six foot line. As you reach the walkout the soil line begins to form up again, they too are sitting on a cushion of inch minus on solid rock. Luckily we had plenty of depth even at that. Shoring at the cast footer is for using the section of green piping for penetration to allow sewage feeder to pass when they pour the knee wall, another two will be for the under floor drain tiles but will be at the corners.
New shop is directly south of the house site, around 150', well sits alongside the shop 30 foot out, they too found a flint shelf 1 foot thick at 7 feet, then dolomite for 40-50 foot then hard white limestone to the 240+/- foot line and finally white sand, well tube is 400' deep, pump is hanging at 300'.
Concrete contractor set the low side frost wall yesterday, is going to wait set on the three side walls until Thursday/Friday to await the drop in outside temperatures. Floor needs to await the install of the subfloor above to minimize crazing and quick cure cracking from too much sun and heat we are experiencing. Once seal coating tar, the subfloor is up and the contractor for carpentry is satisfied I will start the backfill, then the slab work for porches can occur in around a month to allow settlement and refill. Have a side porch at the SW corner, a front porch on the south side(high side) and a full width patio at the north(low side). Fun time will be trying to get any sort of ground cover, grass seeding to take before winter, be a lot of straw laying for awhile.
Not sure about Dmiller's situation but around here it seems most footing are formed on top of the "final grade" of the cut. I don't knows $#!+ about concrete but would think trench cast footings would be stronger and more stable.... Just my opinion. Anybody else got one? John
I was thinking that Dmiller's project and pictures would be better served in another thread on it's own but it does pertain directly to "track loaders digging basements" and the process that goes along with it - including the other trades, as an excavator needs to know the process of the other subs related to the foundations work in order to deliver a successful project. Very good description of the foundation work and the reasons why the project proceeds as it does. Which brings up another topic - backfill. A month is not sufficient time for backfill to settle before concrete is poured for porches abutting the foundation if it is just pushed with the loader. It can take up to 2 years or longer depending on material for it to settle - it's not an exact science by any means. There are two options to insure your porches don't settle and separate from the foundation causing all sorts of issues. Either fill it in 6-8" lifts and compact it with a jumping jack or plate tamp or backfill those areas with #57 stone, as it achieves 95% compaction just by dumping it in the hole. I have always chosen the stone method because in the end it is cheaper than the labor and time involved with compacting fill in such a small area. However if you are doing it yourself then the financial side of it changes. Depending on how much over cut there is between the foundation wall and the excavation, the size of the porches and what kind of loading the porch will carry if it has a roof, for example will also determine how much settlement one could have if just loosely backfilled. If it's loosely backfilled and then a porch slab poured on it a month later, there will be settlement.
On a walk out like this here , we form the walls and trench cast the walk out. This is due to frost line , they want 18" to the top of the footer on any exposed wall. As far as backfilling porches with dirt or rock , depends on the contractor. Porches aren't such an issue because the will pour 5 to 6" thick and basically if it settles its a suspended pour with plenty of rebar , garage floors , I've seen those filled with dirt , heavy clay , allowed 5 to 6 weeks settlement then capped with rock , then poured. Not a good idea. Some builders want the sod off under a garage floor others don't. Personally I want the sod and topsoil off. " You trying to run up my bill or what " heard that crap before.
Thanks for the info Dickjr, I learned something new today on the footing method. We have a 12" frost line, which is a joke it never gets that cold here but they count the frost line as the bottom of the footing. So a monolithic slab on grade needs to be 18" - 12" for frost line and 6" of exposed from FFE to finish grade. That becomes a "pay me know" or "pay a boat boat load later" type of thing. That's why the foundation repair business is so lucrative..:cool2
The footers to the porch are both up and down, there will be a support 'wall' from the foundation to connect to the frost wall on the porch as a continuous pour, that upper footer is sitting on undisturbed soil so should not move any more than the base footer/wall per the contractor, I already asked. Loess soil, tends to compact on its own during backfill, more forgiving than clays, set back for foundation wall line was 2' to 3', along the porch connection wall just less than 1' so settlement should be a minimal. I am placing roll drain tile and a 2'-3' cover of river rock then felt, dirt fill goes in above that. Side porch to the mudroom will await a few months then a breezeway and a smallish(expanded 2 car) garage will go up from that point again on 32" frost walls and a base footer, may set a temporary wooden porch just to keep it functional anchored to the foundation wall.
A little better view:
Can't help it, have to show it off, foundation is set:
Hello DMiller, you have a great vew from the site, and a good view from the walkout basement, that's a great spot you have. Sam.
Thanks Sam, that was the selling point moment when we bought the place. Great breezes on the top of the hill, suspect will be some spectacular light shows during thunderstorms and probably some evil snowfalls but all worth it. Pics are deceiving, wall height is 9' pour, will be 8'4" from finished floor to bottom of joists.
From what I can see the porch footing should be fine it looks like it's on good compacted ground. Although I do think your walls are not tall enough if you finish the basement your ductwork and pipes will be too low. try to figure out how to add 2 feet to the top of those walls. I have had to finish many basements later and the dropped chases really killed the rooms.
Basement should be fine, using I-joist engineered floor joist, run from front porch to walkout wall one piece, ducting is set to run between them for the most part. 10 feet of the front porch wall side is slated for mechanical stuff, full width of basement so any low hanging ducting will not be in the way. 8' 4" from finish floor to bottom of joists, I-beam w8/28 at rough center of basement across long distance, posts inside finished walls. Actual plan is on Familyhomeplans.com #86527 if anyone is interested, some slight mods but base plan stays pretty close. This shows height a little better, guy in the back is 5'7":
Looks good to me , congrats to any guy able to build a new home ( with legally made money ).