Hello, I was wondering if anyone has ever had problems tearing tracks on a track machine. We have a CAT 257B II and it doesn't seem to matter what type of tracks we have (CAT, after market, steel cores, kevlar), we keep tearing them. I know the undercarriage on the 257 has been known to be a bit light/underbuilt for the weight of the machine but is there something we are doing wrong? Are the tracks too tight? Is it operator abuse? How much "play" should there be in the track? We have replaced most of the idlers/rollers but that didnt help. The rips seem to mostly start on an outside edge and it doesnt take long before it's ripped to the middle. The last set of tracks did only a bit of snow removal and tore when working in sand. I would say they had under 1000 hours on them. Any ideas what might be going on? Thanks in advance.
sad to say its just a bad design
THe 257 is a bad design or the tracks I'm buying are a bad design?
no the 257 with the asv undercarrige is a bad design
1000 hours ......this is about the life of these tracks. i get a bit more, an asphalt guy here can't get 600
excessive spinning in place. turning in it own radius.. narrow bucket , get a bucket 6" wider than tracks. 1000 hours TOO many Operators. lifting front of machine off ground ( 2 wheel drive all the weight on the back wheel of the track) I ran a 247, I was the only operator for most part 1900... then it was farmed out to everyone 1100 on the tracks. first set was cat original, don't know the brand of the second.. And I used it on every surface there is
well i guess we know why they quit using them
What about having the tracks "too tight"? How much play should their be. I heard if I press down on the top of the track, it should move about 1/2" to 3/4". Any thoughts on this?
sounds about right sounds like your doing everything right
I'm thinking it's the "turning on a dime" part as we constantly check the tightness and have also replaced other components of the undercarriage. Disappointing none the less. May have to look at a different size/brand next time.
90 lb of force shouldnt cause more than 1 '' of sag halfway from the sprocket to the front idler . 1000 hrs from what ive seen is good for any type of rubber track design. The steel cable style found on others may not be as torn after 1000 hrs but they will most likely be completly bald like the T 300 i ran last week that had the sprocket teeth sticking through the track that how much rubber was gone, it had 1100 hrs.
if you like the cat machines the new ones have the good designed tracks
By luckyJ first post his machine is a 257b series 2 and than along with the series 3 has the different sprocket drive that is found on the 257 and 257b machines. So luckyJ’s machine is the current design so getting a newer machine may not solve the problem that the 257 seams to suffer from… One thing luckyj forgot to mention is it both or only one track that is ripping? As for the track design I think it would have been better if the 257 had the track system that the terex pt70 has as the weight of both machines is about the same and would suit the 257 better Looking at both the 257 and 247 I would say (only because I own one) the 247 is a far better machine than the 257 and more suited to the track system the 257 is just over half a ton heaver than the pt 60 witch uses the same track system. The only changes between asv/terex and cat in the series 2 n 3 is the sprocket drive set up as for the rest of it its all the same system.
concrete work is a killer on tracks in your guys don't care.. 247 is the best little ctl in my opinion. fast but fuel hungry, fuel tank too small. I like the suspension smoother ride we had a 247 and 257 and the weight plus same engine size really slows the 257 down, enough that it is lappable , I used to make the 257 operator mad because I kept telling him he was slow..
that undercarriage was designed for snow and dont last in dirt thats why cat uses a complete differant system now
Cat still uses the asv along with steel type
ok maybe i'm wrong thought they switched my bad
Sorry for off topic but am new to forum and have some questions and can't find answers. Does anyone know how long new members have to wait before I can start a new thread? I just bought a used ASV 4500 and have some questions for smart people out there, track and undercarriage related. Sure like to start a thread on several topics.
In my opinion you got to think about a rubber band when considering rubber tracks. "The more you stretch the rubber band the MORE stress is on it" therefore keep the least amount of pressure off the tracks that you can allow for the type of work application. When clearing you may need it tighter to prevent throwing a track than on a hard surface su h as loading trucks or operating on asphalt /concrete. Watch your operators and don't let him be a hotdog or showoff. It only will cost you excessive wear and TEAR.
Not Cat but VTS We have had a set of VTS tracks fitted to a Mustang 2109 ( 100 hp ) . One of the tracks broke after 500 hours , from what I could see it broke from the middle out , the wire was as rusty as #$%k . The rubber hardly worn at all , and they told us we had been too hard on them and using it on too harsh material , then they said that the machine had too much HP but they were the ones who spec'ed it . at the end of the day I think they were just BullS***ing us . One operator on this machine who I would consider a good , smooth operator and works in what I would think is good material . I would consider that the tracks had the correct tension on them any time I seen it and I work along side of it most of the time . Has any one else had simliar problem ? Haddy
How long does a mini-ex track last down in your neck of the woods? I wouldn't expect a VTS track or a CTL track with steel to last as long as your mini-ex tracks. Same fundamental construction and way more forces applied to the track. The cables are usually the first to go due to cuts and moisture getting into the track. My understanding is that New Zealand is a pretty wet country which probably accelerates your cable corrosion.
We don't run a mini-ex but from what I hear you normally get 1000+ hours from them . We had hoped for at least 1000 as they aren't cheap . I don't think NZ is any wetter than Mid West . We have free draining soils here , we are normally back to work 24 hours after rain .
Sorry , my mistake . We only got 250 hours from the track before it broke
for your next machine, you mite take a look at the 259 B3, im renting one now and have put 500 hrs on in the last 4 months, tracks are holding up great. its been on a grapple bucket, with appx. 400hrs in dirt and 100 hrs in very rock conditons. also have 8 289c and 1 297c and the 297 has been nothing but undercarge problems the entire job! my opinion- the only places the asv undercarge design is better in, is snow and mud.
how much have you paid in rent for 500 hours? are they charging you per month?
$2300/ month for the 259 with a max of 160 hrs/month. $2700 for a 289
What about a 277 ? How does the under carriage and tracks hold up on these ?
My 2¢: Put a straight edge across the bottom front and rear of the track frames, not rollers, (tight wire, etc.) and check to see that they are not cambered in or out, and also check to make sure they are perfectly parallel to each other, "X" the track frames to be sure. Cambered-out track frames can place a lot of excessive stress on the outside edge of a track. Conversly to the inside. Check idler trueness to the track frame.
in regard to the tracks, is there a trick to changing these suckers........ I am worn out fighting this thing. "Any shortcuts would be great. WS
You hear a lot that the 247 might be the best of the MTL's, likely because it most closely matches the weight and hp of its comparable ASV cousin to which the undercarriage was desgined for in the first place. The tearing I think may something to do with both the tension and the and taking too tight of turns in unfavorable ground conditions. I don't know what else it could be really.
**** poor design by CAT..................Everyone with one of these CAT's has the same problem. CAT never stood behind their product and just let everyone spend needlessly on new tracks. Don't take my word on this , do a little research and you will find out for yourself......CAT has a totally new design now but never admitted to the poor design .........I will never buy CAT again.....my .02
Its a lot more complicated than that Pafarmer. CAT bought into ASV, graffed the ASV undercarriage to a skid steer and the MTL was born, as were an untold number of pissed off customers. ASV engineered the undercarriage and the carrier to work together. The ASVs are lighter and better balanced and have less power in some of the models. CAT, I dont think did anything but wield the bottom to the top (of which they had problems with bending and broken wields) and called it good. The ASV was always sold as a special application type machine. Kept in its element, it does things no other tracked machine can do. CAT sold the MTL as a superior CTL which it certainly is not. However the machines were/are very impressive to demo, they ride great and are very quiet compared to a regular CTL. They sell themselves. However click some hours off and the issues quickly and very expensively surface which it sounds like you know first hand. They quickly grenade when used in abrasive enviroments. These machines were clearly sold as something that they were not which is what ASV avoided before CAT came into their lives. The CAT CTL has a torsion system like the Loegren VTS system, and it works great. Now it seems CAT is much quicker to steer guys away from the MTL. When I was looking at a 279C they would not sell me an MTL, which I would not buy anyway. CAT I am sure learned a lot in this MTL mess, but they certainly wrecked a lot of solid business relationships because of it. I think in the long run ASV would have been better had not the MTL been born, while they moved a large number of undercarriages in the short run. However, the undercarriage problems of the MTL were attributed to ASV and certainly their sales and reputation have suffered because of it. If you look deeper in the situation its obvious that CAT wanted to quickly enter the CTL market which Bobcat had solidly owned at the time, I believe they wanted a product that corrected the major complaints of the BC owners which is ride quality and noise. They spent way to little R&D on the ASV undercarriage and how it would react to the CAT skid steer and the type of environments that a CAT customer would insert the MTL in. That combined with over aggressive sales and marketing of the MTL's capabilities, you get what occured. Unfortunately for the customer, almost all issues with the MTL can be laid back on the owner of the machine. Sometimes for due cause and sometimes because its convienient for CAT to do so. IMHO
Your Right, its more compilcated than i made it to be, but in the end, my machine had "CAT" wriiten on the side of it and they own the issue regardless. And they did not stand behind therir machine nor their long term customer like myself............Never again will they get a penny of my cash again.
Well, it finally happened. Mine is a 257b. I don't think its a series 2, its a 2005 model. Anyway, i have followed these threads for years now, and have babied those tracks as best i can. I have lived in fear the day i have to start buying parts. Today both right rear idlers broke off. Its pretty clear dirt got into the bearings, they failed, the wheel started wobbling and eventually tore the center out of the hub. The hubs are plastic by the looks of it. Seems a tad cheap and weak to me. The unit has 508 hrs, almost used entirely around my farmyard. We wash it like crazy because of the fear of failure. No use bitching i guess. For sure if this unit was used in general contracting, by a normal crew of guys, those wheels would have failed long ago. Any word on upgraded components for this unit before i replace with original equipment? Thanks Ken
I think the name is Blair Industries or something like that. They make aftermarket parts for those machines. Sounds like they are better than OEM.
Got it, here it is. Ken http://www.bairproducts.net/index.html
257b so far. My dealer is working on it. They have sold a pile of asv units, so i guessed they would have some experience dealing with these undercarriages. The asv units they have done before use a sealed bearing instead of an open bearing, like my CAT. They got 3500 hours out of the last unit they serviced(note that is an RC50, which is much lighter than the 257b. That is a major factor.) The routine they use is pull all the wheels once a year, and inject grease into the bearings with a grease needle. It is very time consuming, but the bearings last. On mine, with open bearings, the consensus is to drill the wheels and countersink a grease nipple into the wheels so we can add grease easily. The only problem may be blowing out the seal with too much grease, but the seal design is extra heavy duty, so they figure that might not be an issue. Either way, with only 500 hrs to the first teardown, anything is worth a try. It can't do any worse. We are installing the bair wheels across the back, new bearings across the front wheels, as well as a few of the boggies. The dealer was surprised at how much dirt was inside the hubs. I guess even though i try to baby the unit, and really wash it a lot, its not enough. So the best approach is to loosen the track and physically check the wheels for play often. What i have learned is the undercarriage problems are very application specific.
Ripped tracks start as cut tracks. Keep operators away from jagged rocks, culvert ends and so on. In general keep off rough stuff if at all possible, big rocks at high speed break cords and when you do it will surely aid that cut on the side wall in tearing, all you have to do is give it a little twist at the wrong time and your done. They will last if you can get an operator to take care of them..
So I quess what you are saying , ctheddy , is that we are rough operators .
I would politely say that you must be experiencing some very rough terrain and tough circumstances... that's all. I have personally logged 20,000 hrs on skidsteers of all types. I know from experience that your tracks will last and I also know that a couple wrong moves can destroy a tire or track. Again , I'm not out to criticize, I guess pass on experiences that may help others. Remember that your talking to a guy thats spent 1500 this month on new boggies, idlers and bearings, not to mention a set of tracks that just barely holding on. You do what you do to make your world go round... and if running hard is part of it then you have to figure it in your bottom line. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
No worries . I think machine has too much horse power ( 100 ) for it,s own good , even it is one good operator machine and we aren't in hard material . What do you think , is 100 hp to much for the tracks ?
Its been my experience that things in general are made to hold up, but just that not much more. It used to be, not too long ago at that, things were over engineered , seems like this economy has companies cutting cost anyway they can... not good. Honestly though, 100 hp is a lot but I would'nt think it would be the main culprit, certainly a factor.
I nanna my 257B3 around and I hope it holds up over time
I have been following the Skid Steer threads lately as I have been looking to purchase a Tracked Skid Steer. I thought I had a deal on a SR80 ASV, but that seems to have turned a bit dodgy, so I have settled on a 289C from Cat. I had a meeting with the Cat Sales Rep and his Sales Manager last week. One thing the Sales Manager pointed out on the tearing of the tracks was this. He said if you noticed a tear starting, a good practice would be to drill the end of the tear, much like you would do if you had a crack in a piece of steel that you were going to weld. Makes sense to me. At least worth a try. They are delivering the machine out to a job I have that has a lot of slate to be moved. It is material that was moved in there recently for fill, so will be more like working out of a stock pile, 56 (loads) stock piles to be exact. I was concerned that the tracks would be destroyed in the material, so they met me there and seemed confident that their tracks would hold up. I don't intend to punish them(the tracks) as a test, but will certainly give them a work out for the next week or so. I'll try to remember to report back, especially if there are any catastrophic failures.
As with any machine, keeping the surface your working on smooth is key. Don't get sloppy and run over rocks or needlessly spin your tracks and ya should be fine.
Trying to keep this thread all in one place. Maybe i should have started a new one. Anyway, after its all back together the repairs to the 257 came to about $5500. That's about $10/ machine hr to date. Thats a lot no matter how you cut it.
Thinking we get about 800+- out of a track, sometimes they just get something under it and BAM bye bye track, accidents happen. But if your getting a 1000+- hours out of a track I WOULD BE HAPPY. Had to go and pick up 2 tracks yesterday, and install onsite in the mud JOY
Leading cause of track failure is over-tensioning. Make sure you leave some slack in case you get a stick or rock that wraps around the sprocket or cage on the inside of the track.
We have a 287C that is used in stream channel construction, in mud, in cobble, through water, in freezing temps, etc. I have replaced all of the composite idlers with steel from Cat, and will soon need to replace the tracks. They have a few small tears, but are hanging in there so far. We now have 1500 hrs on the origingal set. I suspect that when I replace the tracks I will replace all the bogeys, as well as the sprocket bolts and bushings. I would like to find all steel or aluminum bogeys but have yet to find a supplier as I don't think Cat has come out with steel bogeys yet. Does anyone know ** an aftermarket company that carries steel or aluminum bogeys? I would guess that the MTL cost per hour is more than the CTL, but the ride and productivity because of faster speeds due to smoother ride would be hard to part with.
from earlier in this thread... http://www.bairproducts.net/index.html
Thanks Watglen!
Vine and branch equipment just got a lot of parts decent pricing