I got the first hose off, the nut spun, reluctantly, on the hose. The second one though, not so much. I don't want to break it, so I'd love to hear some suggestions if anyone has any. My spool valves are leaking badly and need rebuilt, so I have to get the hoses off to get it off. Any tricks to this?
Its hard to tell exactly what fittings you have. The first one and the center two (4&5) look like JIC fittings which has a swivel nut. Two wrenches should get it off. If the others are NPT (pipe threads) unless they have a swivel end (I don't think so) you'll have to spin the entire hose. At least one end of each hose has to have a swivel end to get the hose off. Cant see the ones underneath. But it looks like fun.
The hose you have the pipe wrench will not come loose with the wrench on it like it is. Because it appears there is no swivel there. You have to turn the hex fitting counter clockwise. Take the pipe wrench off and look at the other end of that hose for a swivel.
I got the first one off, the one with the wrench. It swiveled, but not easily. I assume it's because it's 60 years old. The second one I don't think has a swivel. It's not turning other than in the elbow fitting. Every hose has a different fitting, I'm wondering if I should just replace them all. Here's a link to the bigger picture for a better view. I appreciate the help. http://i.imgur.com/g6R2oh4.png
Be sure and mark those hoses before you remove them, so you can get them back onto the same fitting they came off of.
Yes, I got a paint pen and did hte 1-6, and that was a big reason for the pictures. Didn't want to mix that up.
None of those hoses have swivels, they're all stright pipe on the ends, and if they turn in the hose, you need a new hose. The two in the middle there and the big one on the far left have a "Pipe swivel" fitting to aid in disconnecting, the hose you have the wrench on needs to come loose on the other end and then you turn the whole hose to thread the end out of the elbow.
Yair . . . Fatjay As I see it there are only three hoses that will come off that valve bank, as mentioned by lantraxco , the two in the centre and the large one on the left . . . the swivel fitting stays on the valve bank. On all the others the far end needs to be disconnected and then you turn the hose out of the fitting, if a hose turns on a fitting it is ruined and you need a replacement. You need to meticulous about not getting dirt in the far end when you undo them as those hoses are going to be pretty set in their ways and will not want to bend as you unscrew them, it is truly a poorly executed installation . . . it would have been so easy with the correct fittings. Not to be picky but a plumbers wrench has no place around hydraulics. (big grin) Cheers.
Holy Cow, I feel for ya the way they set that thing up with those pipe thread fittings! As others stated, you're going to have to take em loose from the opposite end of the hoses to get them to turn and unscrew. If a wrench won't turn the hex of the hose end, a little heat on the elbow threads from a propane torch should help pop them loose, no need to get them red hot. Heck, I'd even be tempted to whack the hoses off with a zizz wheel and deal with the fittings after the valve is removed, of course one would have to replace all the hoses then. When you finally get it ready to re-install, do yourself a favor and install some swivel adapters like on those two hoses in the center.
All new hoses it is! I turned them. They were in rough shape anyway. I think I will buzz them on the other end. I'll install those easy adapters like the middle ones, boy were they easy to turn. The rest, not so much. Probably because they weren't supposed to. :beatsme Being built in 1952 I can't really complain though. I'm kicking myself though, if I would have dropped the hoe, I could have stilled used the tractor. To late for that as I'm head first in. Got the valve bank off and have questions. At the bottom of each is that cylinder, which has a hole in it. Some have a plastic plug, some have nothing, and one has what looks like a bolt/washer/nut. They leak a bit. Is there supposed to be fluid down there? Or is that a bad o-ring somewhere? Found the culprate, one of the bottom cups had blown out. When I used that valve it spewed fluid. I wouldn't have noticed had I not had my daughter up on it while I was watching. Any idea where I can get a replacement part for that? The way it sits Im not sure I can press it flat again. Also there seems to be an extra hose to the swing, not sure what for. How do I clean this thing? I don't want to put it back together iwth grit and paint flakes getting into the lines obviously. I imagine hitting it iwth the hose would not be to good either. Here I'm destroying a hose, unknowingly at the time. It crossed my mind but "nah, it has to be this way". Here's the issue. You can see it's not flat, so it wouldn't seat. It's the left stabilizer. I was working it pretty hard to lift the back, it didn't want to go and kept seeping down.
The holes in the bottom of those spring caps are normal, vent holes, and no, there shouldn't be oil down there, oil would be the spool seal leaking. You need to straighten the flange on that one cap, those caps play a role in centering the spool in neutral. Coat the springs real good with some form of assembly grease on re-assembly to prevent rust from moisture coming through the vent holes. You could pressure wash the valve before disassembly, otherwise some brake cleaner and compressed air would help a lot.
Should hte vent holes have plugs? Should I try to straiten the cap or replace it?
Well, you could plug the holes with plastic plugs as shown in the pics, but there needs to be at least a little hole in the plugs to provide an atmospheric vent. You likely will have to straighten the bent cap flange. Being a 1952 machine, you'd be lucky if you sourced a replacement cap.
Clean the linkage end of the spool up good and then the spool will slip right out the spring end so you can see what the seals are. Hopefully just O-rings, but you won't know until you see them. Might as well replace them all if you can, one spool at a time, including the ones at the other end where there's just a plate with two bolts holding the seal in. May be a dust seal on that end also. Getting the seals in and the spools slipped in without cutting the seals can be a challenge, send some pictures with the spool out and we'll see what you're up against. May be nothing more than having to roll a new o-ring the length of the spool so you don't have to try to undo all that spring mechanism on every spool. As Willie sez, that cap holds the back end of the centering spring setup, if it's stretched you will be able to move the spool appreciably in neutral. If it was me I would bolt it back on, place a piece of flat stock across the end of the cap nice and square and gentlty caress it with small ball peen hammer until there was just a barely perceptible amount of slack in neutral. Don't go too far. Oh, and be thankful those caps were not of the die-cast aluminum variety, they just popped the ears off instead of bending! The swing now... don't know what machine you're working on there, some of the swing mechanisms were made such that they needed a drain hose for internal leakage, probably just carries drain oil off to tank?
Thanks for your help. Machine is a 1952 oliver 77 with ware industrial loader/backhoe. The spools in question are ware products. I cleaned it up a bit and slid the tubes out. These are for the stabilizers. The o-rings must go on the inside, but I'm not sure where yet. there are none to speak of in these two.
They're right on the end, in the closest groove to the outside
Found them all and pulled them off. They all looked to be in good condition. They're flat, though, with one side having a dip in it I'm assuming for expansion. Finding these might be tough, do you think I could get away with standard o-rings?
The part that gets me is none are damaged, yet all leak. I checked closely to the one that was leaking the worst, and there was nothing out of the ordinary. I'm going to pressure wash the valve body, do I need to plug hte holes first? Also the top retainers have a built in rubber/metal gasket thing that does not want to come out. An extra on top of the one inside. I was going to clean it up and leave it there rather than risk damaging it.
I would think any good hydraulic seal outfit could match those up, I know I've seen seals like that before anyway. Kind of like a tiny lip seal, did you note which way they were facing, with the groove towards the inside probably? They may well be 60 years old, and just tired. Yeah, the linkage end will normally have something designed to keep dirt from intruding....
The groove was facing in for all of them. I have 6 ring type in my oring box, but they're a bit to fat. I gotta find a hydraulic shop around here, local hardware store doesn't have anything either. Edit: They're apparently called u cup's, good to know.
No, they wouldn't. I find today's hardware stores to be extremely disappointing. Small rod seal might work, or a quad ring. What are the ID, OD, and thickness dimensions? By the way if they were all weeping oil, you may have a restriction in your return line, plugged filter maybe, if it has one?
Just replaced the filter fairly recently. They were dripping at most, it was very gradual. Just the stabilizer started gushing which prompted me to take it apart. I'll look at the return line, the quick connects are actually working as intended, even though they look like they've never been removed. OD is 1&1/8, ID is 7/8, 1/8" thick, 1/8" tall. I have o-rings that are close, but they're either a hair large, or a hair small. I'd hate to take it apart again after putting it back together.
Take a look at these rod seals the UR12500875-125/HD should work, the other alternative is a quad ring, looks like a 4-212 size would work for you. Quad ring, not O-ring.
Bobcat loader control valves use u-cup seals similar to that, like lantraxco said, should be able to come up with something from a hydraulic seal supplier. Now that I see what you're working on, the trick will be re-assembly. Since the seals fit in a groove inside the valve bore, you're going to have to remove those centering springs from each spool. Install a new u-cup seal in the linkage end of the bore, slide the spool in from the centering spring end and push it through the new seal. Then, push the spool in more just enough to expose the seal groove in the centering spring end of the bore, install new u-cup in that end, then slide the spool back through the new seal, install the centering spring and cap.
This is the bottom end. I was going to just put the metal piece on the shaft, then the new u-cup and slide it down, then insert the rod. When it's through, then I can slide the other u-cup on the other end, then the metal piece. I test put it together with an o-ring and it seems to work.
Oh hey, I see those metal seal retainer plates now. The seal doesn't go in a groove inside the valve bore, instead they fit in that recess at the end of the bore and the plates push them into the recess. Heck, those are easy, just like Bobcat. Like you said, slide the metal plate onto the spool, gently slip the seal down the spool, slide spool into the bore, then push the seal into the recess with the plate. Nice!
Just gotta find the u-cup's! but nothing is going to be open until tuesday now Plus I need to get new hoses made. When i'm measuring, what do I want to measure for the size of the hose? I don't want to order online, but i have a feeling the only shop in the area is going to charge an arm and a leg. If it were one hose that'd be fine but needing 10 of them... Different story.
All the hoses that screw directly into the fittings must be loosened at the other end so the hose can turn, you will destroy the hoses if you turn the fitting in the crimp. If it were my machine I would buy the swivel adapters as the center two hoses have, it makes changing the hoses a lot easier.
Measure the nominal ID of the hose. Also, the pressure rating. Chances are on a machine that old you may not find the working pressure stamped on the hoses, then maybe you can. I'd say you can use 2 wire hose (2 wraps of wire braid). Higher pressure hose is 4 wire, but I doubt that's what's on that machine. There is a 3 wire out there, but kinda rare. And as all of us has stated, don't forget to order those female pipe swivel adapters for all those fittings on the valve body, well worth the money to purchase them.
Do as the others said and get the correct O rings. I just want to mention that Metric size O rings are readily available when inch sizes won't fit.
Still working on u-cup's, but for now I need hoses. Can someone tell me the technical name for this type of end? It's OD is 3/4" and inside is tapered. Also the name for this swivel that lets me connect a hose without twisting it:
Those threads are NPT (National Pipe Thread), the size would be 1/2", or -8 (dash 8) The swivel adapters are part #0616-8-8, available at any hydraulic hose/fitting supplier.
I can't upload on mobile apparently. So what is the difference between w and not w? http://i.imgur.com/9QumA17.png
Standard crimp fittings (non-W) are typically used on 1 wire and 2 wire (braided wire) hose. W fittings are typically used with 4 wire (spiral wire wrap) hoses but can be used with 1 and 2 wire hose that is designed for bite to wire fittings. In your application, 2 wire hose with standard crimp fittings should suffice.
One thing I couldn't help but notice in the first post is that the elbows in the photo (the connections between the hoses and the valve block in other words) are malleable iron ones which are not generally recommended for high pressure. Even though I suspect it's quite low - do you have any idea what pressure this system runs at..? If not it might be a good idea to replace those malleable iron elbows with proper hydraulic fittings.
It appears in the photo those malleable 90° elbows require dismantling the entire valve body to be able to turn the fittings. Old Magnet posted a lot of useful information for the 580C here ----- http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=case&th=131980
I agree. The thing is that if all the spools, etc, require removal in order to reseal then IMO it would be worthwhile to go one step further and separate the sections of the valves to replace the seals in between them, because they would be the only seals that are not being replaced while everything is apart. It would be a shame to have a leak between valve sections after reassembly in view of all the effort that is being put into fixing leaks.
Willie59, is that a JIC to NPT adapter?
Thanks much for the info. I was looking into changing the fittings but in the back of my head I keep hearing "they've been fine for 63 years, why poke a sleeping bear". In the dissassembly thus far, I have noticed quite a bit of teflon tape. I thought teflon tape wasn't recommended for something like this? Also since I force turned the hoses, as long as the rest of the hose is in good condition I was thinking I could just have new ends put on. There's plenty of slack underneath that a few inches shouldn't make a big deal. As far as those 90 degree elbows go, They do just clear when spinning, and could be removed without to much hassle. I assume that the block thread is also NPT if everything else is. Thus far I've had zero luck finding a shop that has anything in stock, so it looks like I'll be resorting to ordering online. A trip to granger yesterday was pretty useless, going to hit tractor supply today and see what they have. Even if I have to order online, I can still return it in store if there's a problem.
They don't seperate, it's a single piece.
Teflon tape is generally not recommended in hydraulic systems, a liquid pipe sealer would be far more preferable. If a small piece of tape starts floating around the system you never know where it could end up although it's usually in a valve spool somewhere to cause all sorts of mayhem. I hear what you say about the malleable iron fittings and to a certain extent I sympathize with your dilemma. If it was me I would replace them with proper hydraulic fittings but it's not my money I'd be spending.
Those are definitely JIC 37° Flare to NPT. I personally would not change out the pipe fittings on the valve body, IF in fact they have been there since 1952. If you can find a hydraulic shop to put new JIC ends on an old hose I would probably go that route. And get some JIC 37° Flare to NPT adapters the appropriate sizes, since you have more than one. I don't see the problem with teflon tape, just keep it from getting in the ID when wrapping. If you have an extra $2,500 to spend on hoses and fittings, disregard what I just said
I didn't see that the valve body is one piece. If you want to replace those malleable elbows they readily obtainable with with the integrated swivels. I am posting a photo of one I just happen to have for a spare. They do not cost much more than the straight swivels. If you have a Motion Industries dealer near you he will have / or can get everything you need for fittings. I have purchased from them many times.
I was thinking these would work: http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/hydraulic-hose-assembly-3-4-in-x-60-in Sadly I don't have $2500 to spend, that's more than I paid for the machine! My wife gives me dirty looks when I talk about spending $250.
I was in tsc and found npt 90's with swivel was only a dollar more than strait swivels. I just need to find some 3" male to female 3/4 npt and I can do it right. 8x 90's is 80$ plus 240 for hoses, it's not as tough of a pill to swallow, and I'll be good for another 60 years
Ok here is what I found in tractor supply. I removed one of the elbows and got a shot of it. My issue now is that 3" male to female to come past the bottom valves. I'm assuming replacing the elbows is pointless if I don't replace the 3" pipe it connects to. so I need a 3" male to female, then 8 of those 3/4" elbows with swivel.
Every factory in the US was at one time plumbed with black iron pipe, and as you say those fittings have been happy for longer than I have been alive. If they weren't leaking, just leave them be, why risk causing a leak or possibly breaking the cast valve from over tightening. Nige, in principle I agree with what you say about proper fittings and no teflon tape, but down here at the farm level things get a bit less precise. One thing to keep in mind is real world performance and every machine I have ever seen from Japan has had loads of teflon tape on every taper thread joint, they use like five turns on every fitting. The trick is just to make sure you keep the tape back at least one thread. The only thing I always warn people about is the teflon is SLICK, so you will have a tendency to over tighten joints, and cast or aluminum bodies will most likely crack wide open before you think it's tight enough. Those prices are about double what I'm used to, have things gone up? Wow....
You had to say that didn't you! Brings back bad memories of working on a D398 Genset. Hooking up fuel lines to the lift pump fitting was barely finger tight turned one more turn and OH! ****! I was over 400 miles away from the shop. Well luck was on my side in part, called back to the shop and there were some other guys getting ready to leave for the same site in few hours. Also we just happened to have a D379 sitting in the sop in pieces. Needless to say it was years before I used teflon tape for anything other than simple water pipe connections, still would not use it in something like this poster's hydraulic valve. One other place to avoid using it is when installing a sensor. The tape can under the right(or wrong) situation insulate the sensor and if the sensor need to make connection to the part it is installed in to function it could cause all kinds of trouble.
Well if you have a hydraulic supply shop near by or if you want to do some shopping online check out the link below and scroll down to about page 21 you might find something there that will work. http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pll_1201.pdf
Nice catch by Nige about those elbows, and yes, he's correct, that's not a hydraulic rated fitting, and I wonder if those pipes that the elbows are fitted to are schedule 40, again, not hyd standard. But I see your point F-jay, been working that way all these years, why make it more complicated by removing all those pipe fittings when all you need is the swivel adapters. BTW, I think I gave you the wrong part number earlier, those pipe swivel adapters would be 1404-8-8 for 1/2" NPT pipe threads. Sorry bout that. But if you're going to remove all those fittings and replace with proper elbows, check out a 1501-8-8 for the bottom ports and 1501L-8-8 on the top ports. Maybe that would be more simple.
Willie where am i plugging in these numbers? I searched the internet for them and got some strange results. Looking at hte elbows, I'm not sure they can turn without hitting each other, which is why I suspect they used the parts that they did. They narrowly clear as it is, less than 1/8" clearance.
Those are standard hydraulic fitting numbers. Yes, certain brands may issue "their own part number", but those numbers apply to Dixon and such. This is a link to the 1501-8-8, the 1501L has a longer stem. > http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Steel_Hydraulic_Pipe_Swivel_Fittings_NPSM_s/47.htm
F-jay, I would like for you to find something that works for you. As you said, the fittings you have now barely clear each other when you turn them, changing to something else may not clear. As lantraxco stated, it's worked all these years why mess with it (aside from adding the swivel adapters where the hoses connect). I just want you to get it repaired without a mess of hassle, I'm certain this whole deal is a headache enough and don't need to make it worse.
You'll note when I asked the question about the malleable iron fittings I did also ask what pressure the system runs at .......... maybe they are good enough for this system. Going back to F-jay's most recent photo at the top of this page and considering the amount of height required before the 90-deg, why not leave the straight nipples screwed into the valve body as they are now and try to locate some 90-deg NPT/swivel elbows with a female thread on them rather than a male so that they will screw straight into the existing nipple..? that way you can have your cake and eat it too.
How about this link? http://www.surpluscenter.com/shop.axd/Search?keywords=9-1501&catname=&page_no=1 Seemed to help to add the word Elbow in the search! Also try putting a "-" between the 1501 and the L Google can be fussy about things!
That's the million dollar question, I've been trying to figure out for quite some time now. I don't have a gauge to put in line, nor a place to put it. I'd imagine since it's older it's not very high. The hoses on it are 2250psi and they're running fine. While I have it apart I may put something on though, just for curiosity's sake. Just have to figure out how.
Sorry for intruding but, am I missing something My backhoe has JIC and NPT fittings. I never heard of NPT (National Pipe Tapered) with a swivel end. I found the link below, it has NPSM, which is more or less straight pipe threads, which would have a tapered seat. The idea of tapered threads and a tapered seat together confuses me. Is there such a thing? That's why I thought these fittings were JIC View attachment 135807 https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/thread_guide.pdf
I'm far from an expert on this, just going off what i've picked up thus far. As far as I can tell, the swivels there are NPT (national pipe thread) to what looks like inverted flare according to the guide you have there. The NPT are strait thread, not tapered. The 1/2" go to the stabilizers and are sized down from the outlet on the block, which is 3/4 all the way down.
With the u-cups not coming in until next week, and leaving town early morning monday, I don't want to leave the parts open to the atmosphere. I was going to reassmble them, but want to use some sort of lubricant to protect the metal until it has hydraulic fluid running through it. I have silicon lube I was going to use, but wondered if there's something better.
View attachment 135807 The two swivels in the above picture are the pipe swivels, NOT JIC. If you read the information in the link to the "How to Identify Fluid Ports and Connectors" you will see this statement: A properly chamfered NPTF male (page 2) will also seal with a NPSM female
They're called pipe swivels, there's a female cone machined in the hose ends and some fitting ends to accept the male cone. These predated the JIC swivel concept and came about obviously because something had to turn to get hoses etc installed into a pipe thread system. There are also NPT hose ends that are designed to swivel and have an O-ring seal that accomplish the same purpose but I think they tend to be more expensive and will probably leak over time.
Put it in a plastic bag.
Agreed. Hose it down with WD40 and put it in a plastic bag.
Hay Fatjay, send us a post card from Thailand. Be safe and have fun.
Thailand was fun. Shrimp the size of chicken legs. Even drove an elephant. But back to business. I got all the old hydraulic hoses off. These are the hoses to be replaced.
Went to TSC. They had the hoses, and for a great price! But upon closer inspection, even though the OD matched, the ID was much smaller, half of what the original was. This would kill flow, so I just bought 20 gallons of hydraulic fluid, on sale for $25 per 5 gallon bucket. Found a place close by that would make the hoses. To the tune of $535 for 10 hoses. 6x 1/2" by 60", 2x 1/2" by 30", 1x 3/4" x 32", 1x 3/8" by 36". This was on the end of the boom cylinder. I don't know what it is. Can someone shed some light on it for me and whether I need to transfer it over or not?
those wrenchs look the ones I have missing
I need to buy more, I only have one 1" open end, and the other end is my one 1&1/8". I was not prepared for this.
That's either a restrictor to control speed or more likely it's an "Excess flow check" which in case of a hose rupturing with a load in the air senses higher than normal flow and snaps shut. They usually have a small bleed orifice that allows the boom to slowly lower until the load comes off. In either case, I would put it back where it came from in the same orientation. Cheers
Thanks, I figured it was something like that, but wasn't sure. The new hoses are rated at 4500psi, the old were 2250psi, so these should be good for the life of the machine. Most of the old hoses that came off were 50+ years old. They were a real challenge to get off.
Hey Fatjay, welcome back to the commonwealth. I would love to take a trip somewhere like that. Big food and big transportation. What's the top speed of that there elephant? Gotta love new hoses! What fittings did you end up using by the valve controller? Since it was mostly pipe, did you make any changes?
Elephant had a top speed of about 1 on a good day. Was pretty neat though. Didn't change any fittings. All new hoses are on, got u cups to replace the old ones in the valve body. Started up and moved around, everything is great except the last valve leaks still. But the stabilizer valves that were spewing fluid are good now. The one leaking also sticks. I don't know why it leaks and it only leaks out the bottom, not top. And I replaced all u cups. It's on the end so I can take it out without disassembling everything. It's not a big leak, but it's still annoying since I just rebuilt everything. While apart the spools all looked like they were in good condition. Not sure why it's sticking or leaking at this point.