I recently bought a mini excavator (Cat 305C CR) and a skid steer (Cat 267B). They weight approximately 10K each. Now I am looking for a way to tow them. I do NOT need to tow both at the same time. Also, if it matters, I do not do any sort of construction for a living. I have done a lot of reading and am very confused about what a truck can and cannot tow. There is a lot of talk about what it is rated for, what it is legal for, and what in whoever's opinion it "can" tow. I want to make sure I am safe above all, legal, and that I don't damage my axle, engine, etc. stretching the limits. I am looking at Ford trucks. I am planning to buy an F-350 Super Duty with single rear wheel. I would really like to stay with a SRW if possible and not have to go to a dually. I am getting the 6.7 PowerStroke Diesel. I wasn't going to get a gooseneck but have been told it may strain my truck less and increase the comfortable limit of what can be towed so I am now thinking I will probably do that. It increases the GVWR from 14K to 15900lbs by having the gooseneck. My question is, am I stretching the limits too much hauling a 10K pound machine with an F-350 SRW? Am I safe and is that truck plenty comfortable towing that load? I haven't decided on a trailer yet--maybe a flat bed equipment hauler or a dump trailer...I will seek advice on that in the trailer section. Thanks for your help!
One more question I am unclear on....I keep seeing several numbers kicked around regarding gross weights. When I am building the truck, it asks if I want the GVWR 9900 package or the 11400 GVWR package. I assume the 9900 gets you around the CDL requirement? Is that number the amount of payload/crew/etc. you can carry in the truck combined with the truck's weight? Does this number tell me anything about towing capacity at all? I think from what I understand that your tongue weight does calculate into this maximum as well, in addition to truck and payload/passenger weight. So, if my GVWR on the truck is 10K (for round numbers), the truck weighs 7K, I can put in 3K pounds of (added together) passenger weight, payload in the bed, and tongue weight on the tow hitch? Then I look at the towing capacities. The SRW truck can tow 14000 from the bumper or 15900 with 5th wheel towing. Am I correct in assuming these numbers are the total weight the truck can tow, including the weight of the trailer as well as the payload on the trailer? Lastly, each trailer I look at has a GVWR. Is this simply the amount of payload you can haul on the trailer combined with the weight of the trailer. For example, if you have a 10K GVWR on a trailer, and the trailer weights 3K by itself, you can put 7K of load on the trailer, correct? I guess if you are towing something you have to go with whichever is lower, the towing capacity of the truck or GVWR restrictions of the trailer?
For sure get a gooseneck trailer, whichever kind of trailer you decide on, you will fall in love with it and it's way better for carrying the weight and maneuvering. Personally I wouldn't want to carry that much weight without duals, but if the truck is rated for it, might be okay. The important rating is GCWR which is the manufacturers Gross Combined Weight Rating, which will include the truck, trailer, and any load carried on the truck and trailer, total gross. I used to run a Dodge dually with a gooseneck triple axle trailer, was always illegal but luckily never got scaled. Perfectly safe, except for the time an employee threw 20,000 on the trailer, it pulled and handled fine, but when I pulled across an unmanned scale to find out why she was working so hard I near had a heart attack. Check your state licensing laws pertaining to the truck and yourself, here in Oregon we have to put truck license on anything that might gross over 10,000 lbs combined, I always plated mine for just under 26,000.
Looks like the new Super Duty -350 with diesel engine has a GCWR of 23500 (saw one place that said 26000 but another said 23500) and a towing capacity of 14000 from the bumper and 15900 with a gooseneck/5th wheel. The truck itself I think weighs around 7K and change so if I get a trailer that weighs about 3K, a 10K machine, my total would be around 20K. Is that pushing the limit too much? Thanks!
I have a '13 F350, 6.7, 4x4, 11,200 GVWR, SRW. I have a 14K goose and a 14K pintle I move a T250, S250 and 334 mini on. The truck does great, strongest and best towing SRW truck I have owned and I have had many Ford 250's and 350's. Bought this truck off the lot as I needed a truck (there is a thread about it) and didn't have time to order one. Options- 3.31 Electronic axle - $390 Electronic shift on the fly - $185 Engine block heater - $75 Gooseneck hitch kit - $250 5th wheel prep package - $370 Trailer brake controller - $230 Dual alternators - $380 Fx4 package - $295, very cheap for skid plates however the "Rancho" shocks suck Upfitter switches - $125 Standard - trailer tow, trailer sway control The gooseneck hitch and 5th prep package are cheap. An aftermarket hitch with installation will run about the same but I really like how the Ford hitch is integrated into the truck and it gives you a trailer electrical plug in the bed. Depending on which trim package you decide on the truck, other options. I bought an XL with the Value Package, power equipment package and decor package to get chrome bumpers. These options gave me everything I wanted in a work truck. Power everything except seats, vinyl floor and seats for easy cleaning - not worried about getting dirt and grease on them compared to some supple leather. Truck also has the heavy duty receiver hitch. Special ordered a 2.5" pintle plate receiver tube to pull the pintle with. IMO the 2" is not stout enough to be pulling 14K. As far as trailers go I use both often, depends on what I am hauling and where I am going. The goose is very long, not good for tight spots. If I am just moving a skid or the mini I prefer the pintle. A lot of times I leave the trailer on the job and it's just easier to park and get around. You can't go wrong with a truck like this for what you want to pull. Like has been said check your state's rules on CDL requirements. Alabama goes by the basic Fed rules - over 26K GVW and 26K GCWR = CDL. The truck is 11,900 and trailer 14K, GCWR is 25,900 which here means no Class A CDL to pull it, although I have one. Tags are by weight and you have to get the appropriate one.
I think you're correct on all your math, but again, check with the state on licensing specifics. I think perhaps the 9900 GVWR package may be for states like Oregon here where the standard car plate is only good for 10,000, over that you have to pay mucho dinero for truck plates. You might be able to get a small bumper pull trailer that will carry your load that will weigh in around 3,000 pounds, the gooseneck adds weight, and if you want a dump trailer, they're heavy. Think 6,000 pounds or more for a gooseneck dump with the capacity and length you need. I wouldn't be nervous about operating at the weight rating, believe me it's conservative. Not unusal to see these 350's, albeit duallies, towing 4 car ramp trailers down the road or pulling a hotshot trailer at well over 30,000 gross even though it's not legal or recommended. One caveat, make absolutely sure you have the best trailer brakes you can get and keep everything in top condition, might save your life or someone else's. On average the truck can stop an unloaded trailer without too much panic, you throw 10,000 extra pounds on and if the trailer brakes malfunction it will turn into a rodeo very quickly.
It's going to vary widely state to state on the tag requirements. I think my X1 tag is $800 a year. Commercial plates go from X1 through X9 in Alabama, the larger the number the more weight permitted.
A bumper pull can get out of hand very quickly if you do not have experience with that kind of weight. A goose/5th wheel is more forgiving. I have a 97 srw f350 psd with a pintle pull 14k towmaster rolling on 17.5's 10k+ on the deck. It is about impossible keep it straight at speed unless I have 1000lbs in the box. Fingertips on pins and needles! You can push the numbers and specs but if you never want push your driving limits. Over rate your trailer and power unit.
That is worthwhile information as well. I am a cautious driver but admittedly have little experience towing anything over 4K pounds (and I do that with my supercharged Range Rover, which is probably a little different although it weighs the same thing as a Super Duty) Sounds like I can safely tow what I want to tow with the SRW truck but I probably need to do more research on trailers. I was liking the dump trailer idea but the fact they are very heavy may push limits even more. I do like the gooseneck option for a few reasons but sounds like there are also some cons, namely the fact that while you increase your towing capacity, you also increase the weight of what you are towing. I only have experience towing bumper pull trailers (and again with much less weight) so I need to do some research on which trailer I should get.
I will say that safety is priority for me so the gooseneck being a bit safer (at least according to some) does appeal to me. Again, I need to look at weights on trailers. I get an increase in towing from 14K to 15900 going to a gooseneck but I don't know what the equivalent trailer weight increase will be. I was hopeful I could get a dump trailer but it sounds like that may be out unless I want to go to a dual rear wheel, which I can do but would really rather avoid if at all possible to make the truck more useful for other applications. Thanks!
Personally if I had your pockets and experience it would be easier and safer for everyone if it was hired out to a professional...
I understand your rationale there. However, everyone starts without knowledge and experience and must gain it somehow. I am cautious and certainly do my research and consult people (just as I am doing here) to make sure I am on the right path. As far as being safer, I'd like to think I will be safe...and plan to be so. It certainly isn't easier--I love having equipment and the convenience of being able to do things myself. The whole reason I have a truck, skid steer, and excavator is so I can do what I want, when I want. Furthermore, where is the fun in life hiring everything out to be done? I am a surgeon in my day job so I am always asked why in the world I want to do stuff myself. In the words of one of the doctors that trained me, I'm "only a surgeon so I can afford to be a farmer." Last but not least, not to be arrogant, but I am particular enough that I find myself fixing everything that a "professional" does for me. I learned to lay tile when my contractor screwed it up, I build my own boat dock because no one else would be as particular, I painted my entire house, and one reason for the excavator and skid steer is that I lost 6 digits worth of money on failed landscaping that now needs to be redone. I know everyone is cringing thinking there is another pompous doctor who is haphazardly doing dangerous things with his money just because he can buy expensive toys--I don't blame you for that thought because there are a lot of them. But, I grew up on a farm, I plan to retire early and farm for a living, and I enjoy doing things myself so I would like to think I'm a little different. I realize danger, approach things with caution, do my research, get opinions and guidance when necessary, and with that said, feel very very confident that things I do are very often done "safer" than "professionals." After all, I spend a lot of time reattaching fingers of "professionals" as the result of using saws while mine are still attached! I do appreciate the advice and understand your thought process, but I don't want to miss out on getting to live life just because I'm blessed enough to have some money!
Get a gooseneck you won't regret it. I used to pull my skid and attachments on a backhoe trailer and when I finally upgraded to a GN I love it.
not trying to be mean now that I know your financial ability heres what I would recommend get an f550 with a flat dump about 11-12' with a removable gooseneck ball in the bed and a goose neck trailer make sure the neck is long enough and high enough to clear the side boards at a turn on the rear corner of the dump bed I like the deck over trailers because the fenders is not in the way when you need to load or unload some thing with a fork lift such as lumber,rebar,logs or palletized supplies or wide items like storage sheds and you can also slide or roll loads off the side make sure to get sealed beam lights and oil bathed axles,hubs some of the trailers you have a panel in the beaver tail that will raise up to make it level with the rest of the deck so you can haul longer items or hay ,straw on the tail. you may think that an f550 is over kill but you won't regret it it will last longer with fewer repairs and it will handle a whole lot better with the dump bed on the truck all you have to do is unhook your trailer and theres your dump truck it will get around a whole lot better in tight places than a dump trailer. I think you will be awhile lot happier with this set up than a single wheel truck and definitely a lot safer
go buy you a small toyota pickup if you need a pickup truck to run around town for small items
The new 6.7 SRW will not have a problem doing what you want to do. But with your budget and safety as your main concern, have you considered a dump truck? You cant beat the stopping power of a Jake brake and air brakes. 13-15k pounds is on the upper end of the ratings for a SRW light duty pickup, but its a light load for a truck.
Couldn't agree more. 15K lbs is really all you want to pull on a regular basis with a SRW 6.7, will it pull and haul more - certainly but it comes down to overloading and wearing your truck out prematurely and state/local regulations. A single axle with air brakes and a jake is no comparison to a pickup and you could haul both machines at the same time with class A CDL. However it comes with higher insurance, maintenance cost and tag/road taxes.
Sorry to hijack thread SML....but I am in similar situation but I do construction full time and have A/CDL lic and Cvor etc.... I have been running 3/4 p/u for 10 year, chew thru brake etc pretty fast even with good trailer brakes. So CM what would you suggest for spec of this single axel? How much HP? I keep finding trucks with 220hp in singles... If going to exp etc do we goto Tandem to carry real load? thxs
Pondo what are you hauling/pulling?
Equipment: 4 ton Mini with 3 buckets, hydraulic breaker and diesel plate compactor. Would love a set-up that could have 2nd machine small skidsteer or compact tractor. And have tons more attachments that could be making money if I could move them in one load. Material: broken concrete (sub out large quanity, small load move with 7 ton dump trailer) And load of gravel. thxs
Get a hooklift truck with a couple ten yard cans and a decent pull trailer for the other piece of equipment. I used to have a customer that did in ground pools, carried his mini ex and a 5 foot wide rubber tracked dumper in a ten yard can. Drop the can at the curb, go to work, excavator puts dirt in the dumper, dumper runs between the house and the fence, backs into the can and dumps a couple yards. Meanwhile the truck driver is coming with another empty. Pool in a day, two if they're small and close together.
Depending on what year model and price range you are looking at, 220-230 HP will fit the bill for what you currently have. It's not going to be a speed demon, however make sure it has at least a 6 sp trans. Single axles have their place but it doesn't cost much more to operate a tandem but you have twice the payload.
I agree, only downside to a tandem is maneuverability. The issue with most of the 220-230 trucks is not that the power is too low to get the job done. Its that most of these trucks have hydraulic brakes (or electric over hydro) and don't offer a jake brake. If I was going the single axle dump route I would be looking for something along the lines of this http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=5267205 built like a tandem, just shorter.
3406-B with a 13 speed, that's one hell of a single axle. I'll take payload over maneuverability but that's my particular situation and working conditions as we don't run into tight situations very often but always have some tonnage to move. One can find the single axle 200-230 horse trucks with air brakes, they're quite common.
I know you can easily get one with air brakes, its the jake brake I've never seen in a truck with a 3116, 3126, C9, DT466, 5.9, 8.3 or other smallish low horsepower motors. I just wanted to point out when it comes to single axle trucks they are far from created equal!
I thought the same thing when I stumbled across that add! Doesn't say what rear axle is in it tho.....
Up here in Oregon/Washington they pull triple sets with single screw cabovers... the ring gear in those axles is awesome and they rarely fail. A comment on the jake brake issue, most diesels can take an exhaust retarder so it's doable on most smaller engines, just gotta do your research before you buy. I drove an International with a 3406B and jake, another truck was a freightliner with a Detroit Series 60 and an exhaust retarder, I guess the DDEC heads wouldn't work with a jake brake. Anyway, we both regularly loaded over a hundred thousand, coming off the pass at 25mph he wasn't using his air brakes any more than I was...
I have three. Two IH 2375s w/ 300 cummins, 8L and 26,000 lb rears (same as the rear axle in a set of 52s); and a CH Mack with an E7, 10 speed, and a 25,000 lb rear. The hubs on those rear axles just barely fit through the hole in a Budd wheel. The IHs have been converted to floater spreaders, and the Mack was bought for that, but it was so handy I never took the fifth wheel off. I used to use the Mack to move several companies demolition equipment onto Ocean Boulevard in Myrtle Beach. It has several times pulled a 330 Cat the last couple of miles, and used to routinely pull 320 sized machines a hundred miles. Turning off a 2 lane street with tight sidewalks onto another, and then backing into a beach access alley was much easier with 144" wheelbase. I was going to add a couple of pics, but this stupid computer refuses to do so.
Are you sure the series 60/ DDEC engines are not available with Jake brakes? I have very limited experience with the detroit motors... I have not driven a heavy duty truck with an exhaust brake, only light duty and medium duty applications. But in my experience an exhaust brake doesn't even come close to the performance of a jake brake.
I have worked on many a truck w/a series 60 and a Jake; I have never had anything to do w/ an exhaust brake, I know nothing about them.
Yup, this was around 1990, I don't think Jacobs had come out with a brake yet for the Series 60, I dunno. Exhaust retarders work great, especially if they're air activated and adjustable. You do have to watch the heat gauge though.
Wow, thxs for info guys. Currently paying for my sins from younger and dummer years, knees and back are shot. Tired to drive a 6 speed manual topkick Chev for 1/2 hr...still limping and gimping ! Will an Alison Auto have 6 speed? Mechanic buddy is pushing me towards early 2000's truck ie pre-emissons, and not a 1980's...that was mean looking '85 Pete...if it was closer I would have to go look at it! Wife won't likely approve P.O. for road trip to south Cali Budget.....is always question: spend too little have headache and waste, spend to much; fight to make payments...so dreaming upto $50k complete good rolling unit with little setup time and money. Himming and hoing at 2007 Ken T300 w isb 260 Alison 3000 with brand new rolloff system one 16' bin $58k. They need to build rolloff system 7 week delivery Still sitting of fence...last 3 yrs were very $$ tough, but now cannot put keep up to phone/biz .....
Hey Guys. just viewed my post on cell phone and certain word show up bold and high lighted....it look normal on office computer...sorry I did not intend for that to happen and pls don't take offence.
How many miles on the KW? What brand of roll-off system? I love Allision auto's in vocation trucks. Had a tandem and tri axle dump both with 4000 6sp trans. Great for what we did. My cellphone and email preview does the same, nothing to worry about.
CM thxs for ur time. 275 000 km Pretty sure it was delivery/box truck in it's first life. frame looks like it had 18th box...that actually another reason I have not bought truck. Looks long. roll off system http://www.ontrux.com/ It's local manufacturer. Cable system, but has retackable rails/stinger system easier for towing trailers etc. Low/shallow load angle. Not set/ sold on any particular system. But On-trux has /owns the truck, it is waiting system install, they are slammed busy .
SML Winds - I recently faced a similar set of questions, so I will share this with you and hope you or someone else finds it useful: I needed to pull a trailer that grosses out at almost exactly 11,000 pounds when loaded. The trailer is a custom built steel trailer that is intended for carrying a Kubota 3130 and some gravel working equipment. It has two single wheel axles and electric brakes. To tow it, I ended up buying a 2002 Silverado 2500HD 4x4 with the 8.1L gas engine and Allison 5-speed automatic; which has a towing capacity of 12,000 pounds. I THOUGHT that I would most likely end up with a 350 or 3500 dually and found this single rear wheel 3/4 ton only by accident. I should also note that I THOUGHT that my trailer grossed out at 10,000 pounds before I weighed it, so my 17% capacity margin turns out to only be 9%, but things of this nature tend to be built with substantial unofficial/undocumented margins and so far I have had no issues. I should note that I took off the stock Class III and installed a Class V Curt and a pintle hook setup. On the plating issue... I don't want to speak for all 50 States, because my experience is with Ohio, but it should be pretty much the same everywhere. When you buy a weight sticker for a commercial truck, what you are really buying is a permit for how much you are allowed to weigh. Lets say you have a truck that is capable of a CGVWR of 40,000 pounds but you sticker it for 26,000. Well, you don't need a CDL for that. If you have a truck rate for 25,999 pounds and you exceed a 26,000 sticker by two pounds then you are in violation. Technically. I doubt anyone would write someone for two pounds. I want to put in a disclaimer here.... I am talking about what are basically chassis-cab pickup trucks or Vans with different bodies (Dump, Box, etc), not tractor trailers. And I'm not addressing air brakes or complicated multi-range transmissions at all. An excellent example would be an RV hauler, which is actually a real tractor that has been bobbed and had it's rear axle moved forward to where the front axle used to be before it was removed. No special license needed for that as long as you don't exceed the magic number of 26,000. I think I stickered my truck for 22,000... I'd have to look to be certain, but I figured 11,000 + 6,500 + 1,500 for a 3/4 ton payload for a total of 19,000 pounds. IIRC there was no 20,000 pound sticker available, just 18k, 22k & 26k, so 22 was the next size up. That's it... I hope I said something useful for somebody.
You need to look at that again. Here is a link to the Ohio Dept. of Public Safety manual. It lays this issue out clearly on page 3. Whether or not you need a CDL goes by the manfacturers weight ratings, and has nothing to do with what tags you choose to put on it, or what it actually weighs at any point in time. This is all set by federal law, the states can be stricter, but not looser. http://www.publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/HSY7605.pdf
You're correct, the book does say that. However, you're overlooking something important in the practical application of that law. When you go into the motor vehicle dept to register it as a commercial vehicle and they ask you what the GCVWR is, you TELL them and they sell you the appropriate sticker. If your vehicle is rated at say, 30,000 pounds... Say an F-550 with a 5 ton dump bed that can pull a 12,000 pound trailer, but you ASK for a 26,000 pound sticker on your license plate, that's what they will sell you. As long as you never carry a load in the dump bed AND pull a trailer at the same time you will never have a problem, because figuring out the true weight ratings for any given vehicle is a real challenge because there are so many factors that go into it when the vehicle is bought new. That's WHY they issue the weight sticker at the DMV. You declare the weight, they give you the sticker and then it's your business to not break that line. This is all legal. Does it violate the SPIRIT of the law? Sure. No argument there. But it doesn't violate the LETTER of the law. It's like the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. The first is legal and the second is not. Added to this is the fact that the government doesn't really worry about what's going on at the margins. They see it as a self correcting problem. They know that a few thousand pounds of weight capacity doesn't result is any meaningful differences between two vehicles and if someone chooses to use a slightly bigger vehicle at a lower legal capacity and is careful not to exceed the sticker, they are golden. NONE of what I said applies to genuinely larger vehicles of course. 20+ foot box trucks, tractor-trailers, 20-40 ton GCVWR's etc... I don't know if it works the same up there because I've never owned or registered anything like that. And they may have better labeling on the door jamb stickers than "pickup truck class" vehicles do, making it easy for enforcement officers to discover the true weight rating. Plus, it's one thing to sticker a 5-ton dump at 26,000. It's quite another to do the same to a refrigerated 26' box or a low-boy carrying a D9.
I'll buy that they don't enforce it, heck, a friend of mine had a driver kill a man last year, driving an f250 with a gooseneck trailer with eleven tons of feed on pallets. The SCDOT didn't make an issue of the fact he had no CDL, though they issued a warning to him for it, and told the truck owner to get CDLs for his drivers. However, the law is clear, the question of CDL or not goes by manufacturers rating, not yours.
The "Black Letter" law is clear. But that's not the actual PRACTICE and how a government or government agency chooses to implement the law in real life is ALSO the law, even when it seems silly. That's how it's been long before I arrived on this planet and that's how it will be long after I am gone and forgotten. And keep in mind... We're not actually disagreeing. We're talking about two different things. YOU'RE talking about how it's SUPPOSED to be based upon the written law. (Black Letter Law) I'M talking about how it actually IS, based on the implementation of the law. We are BOTH correct. Argument Declined. And have a good weekend.
Not correct by the Fed. rules. Recreational vehicles regardless of weight (greyhound bus motorhomes for example) are exempt from CDL requirements. As has been stated, individual state laws may be more restrictive.
Yes, individual State laws may differ. I can only speak to Ohio. But the RV thing is also iffy. Depending on how various sections are interpreted you could be required to have a Class A, B or C CDL. If I am not mistaken, various things affect the legality. Can it carry more than 15 passengers? Is it for business or personal use? Is the person driving it the owner? And I can't find anything in the Federal rule book that addresses the question. Of course, I may have missed it or it may be published elsewhere... I don't know. If a specific federal exemption for RV's over 26k pounds exists and you can point me to it I would be grateful.
Question #3 - http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/383.3?guidance States can require stricter licensing.
I wasn't offering you an argument. As far as I can tell, in SC you could put an aircraft carrier on a trailer behind an F350 and they wouldn't even look at you, but if you put a Bobcat on a tandem axle truck, you better be RIGHT. There are guys who routinely drive 28k gvwr single axle dump trucks grossing 45k, and never get checked.
You know what the scariest part of all of this is grandpa retires from his desk job pushing paper for 40 years, never drove a big vehicle, buys one of those greyhound bus chassis motor homes and hits the road. Same here Mitch.. The junk man can have 47 side by side refrigerators, twelve microwaves and 5 stoves stacked in the back of an '82 Chevy 1500 pulling a trailer with 2 scrap LTD's stacked on it, going 70 MPH down the Interstate and the DOT won't touch 'em.
I'll give you that one, and you ever wonder what's in that 25,999 U-haul that's squatting and weaving in front of you? There's a guy here who took one of those and added a trailer axle to it, now pulls logs with it. He was running with no CDL since the door sticker said 25,999, but he carries at least 26,000 lbs of payload into the paper mill with it. I don't know if he just goes into the mill at night, or what, since DOT sits at the mill gate at least one day a week. I still see it occasionally.