I hope this is in the right place. I didn't know where to post this because it has to do with two different type machines. If not in the right place I do apologize mods. I have been looking for equipment to help me clear land. I have a small 16 acre plot in East Texas. Mainly sandy loam on the flats with a slight grade of about 12-16 degrees. There's a creek that runs through the middle of the property. The ground is semi-firm to soft depending on area. I will be removing saplings and trees no larger than 4-5 inches in diameter. There's lots of downed trees (mostly pines) that I need to clean up. Some of them very large and will have to be sectioned up with a chainsaw and taken away. Some brushy areas with mainly grasses need to be uprooted and cleaned up. Lots of small limbs and debris. I have many (huge) piles of cut logs and brush that will need to be moved to my burn pit as well. I have a lot of widow makers on my property that need to come down and have yet to figure out how to fell the trees. They are much bigger than are in my plans and may leave them for a professional company. But, I have to work around them and try and avoid backing in to one while clearing. Many have already broken off and the base and are leaning against other trees. Anyway, with a little background on what I'm up against, I have researched (extensively) the equipment to get the job done. We are on a limited budget and can only spend so much on a machine. I have narrowed my choices down to a couple of machines. I had looked into ag tractors and found that I could get more bang for the buck purchasing a used skip loader. Much more capable machine and I could used the box blade for maintaining and grading my driveway. I was thinking of continuing my drive and completing a circle drive one day and the skip would be a good choice for that as well. Whoever graded this place when they built it didn't know what they were doing so it needs to be graded properly for proper drainage. Of course I will have to learn how to do this myself! The skip will have a 4 in 1 bucket. This may or may not get me what I need and may have to purchase a root grapple in the end. My second choice is a Compact Track Loader (CTL). Ideally, it would be a safer machine for the job I need to do. But, the maintenance has me doubting this would be a good choice. I am not a company and these machines are for personal use. There's no way I can put money back in to the machine or write it off. So any machine will be a drain on my wallet. The less drain the better. On top of initial cost of machine, I will have to purchase a root grapple for it; Unless I'm lucky enough to get one that has one already on it. Highly unlikely. My questions are: Assuming that both machines will equally get the job done, which machine do you think will require the least amount of maintenance? Is one or the other easier to work on? I assume the skip would be easier to work on? As far as parts, are parts more expensive on the track loader vs the skip loader (not including the under carriage on the CTL)? I realize I could get the job done faster with a CTL. Less time on the job will mean less maintenance and less fuel spent. But the skip gets better GPH in fuel that the track loader?, but would work slower. I assume parts cost would be the deciding factor in machine selection? I plain on buying used and NOT new. Anywhere between 20-30K. I am not interested in any other type machine and have already researched all other types. I feel these two would work best in my case. Sorry for the long post, but I really need some advice here. I know a lot of you are business owners and have had first had experience with costs on these machines. I need to keep costs as low as possible, but still be able to have a productive machine. Thanks for any and all information!
I agree that the skip loader will be easier to work on and less maintenance. For a lot of work the track loader is more efficient, but the manuverability, compactness and versatility won't help as much on your bigger playing field. The biggest disadvantage I can see with the skip loader is that they don't use skid steer quick attach. On the other hand, for what you're doing the three point may be just as useful, and you get more for your money with used three point attachments (farm vs construction). I saw a ** sell for just over $3k this last spring that would do everything you want with the same maintenance as a similar age farm tractor, no 4in1, 4wd or cab, but it did have OROPS, three point, pto and good tires. With a ROPS and wearing your seatbelt, I don't see how the trackloader would be that much safer? are you thinking rollover or branches hitting you?
Thanks for your reply, Delmer. That is one of the things that are discouraging when it comes to the skip. I wished they had quick attach. If I had to purchase a grapple, I'm not sure how it would fit on there, if it even does? There is a company that makes quick attachments for skips, but I don't know how reliable, safe or fitted they are. I forget the name. **? I'm not good with some abbreviations. Or it could be it's still too early in the morning, lol. Not so much rolling over than branches coming down on me. That's why I mentioned backing in to a widow maker. You can just be standing outside and hear the crack of a huge limb right before it falls to the ground. Some are very large. We have pines over 80-90 ft tall. When the uppermost limbs come down, you best not be underneath it.
** is Massey Fergeuson an AG tractor brand. I like the ctl because of the versitility. Alot more attachments for it. You could get a dozer blade, grapple, 4in 1 on it. All kinds of stuff. as far as safety, if a branch is coming down from that far, id be willing tobet there is damage to either machine. Another thing to think of is if you do need to sell it, a ctl is probably easier to unload then a skiploader. Plus you can always just sell the attachments after you are down with them.
Massey Ferguson, in this case a 50H. I wouldn't hesitate to work with the loader canopies that I've seen, not that I'd like to have a big branch crash down on top of me, but I don't think they'd cause injury unless they managed to come in the side. For the most part a pin on anything has to be made or modified for the specific pin dimensions. Not sure what kind of quick attach systems are available.
Thanks for the definition. I compared ag tractors to the skips and it just seemed the skip had so much more to offer in terms of power and weight. I need both to get things done around here. Plus I'm looking at older machines and or more hrs when looking at ag tractors. Maybe even less lifting capacity. I think some of the ag tractors with more HP than the skips have less lifting capacity. I might be wrong about that, though. If I could get fairly close to the performance of the skip, without buying a 20 year old machine or one with a lot of hrs and at a similar price to the skip, I would more than consider an ag tractor. But from what I have seen, it's just not out there.
My wife said why not get a farm tractor. I said I would if I were farming. I ain't farming, I'm loggin'! I do realize implements for the skip are way higher than a regular tractor with PTO. I assume the Hydro 3 point makes the skip impl more expensive? Either way, I wouldn't need the implements anyway. That box blade would do for me as much as I need to do. I still have the issue with 4 in 1 bucket. I'm not sure it will get things done efficiently enough. If not, I still have to figure out how to get a grapple on the skip. I still think the CTL would be the ultimate, but I don't think I can justify the cost of upkeep/maintenance on it (unless someone could convince me otherwise). I'm in no hurry to get things done. I just need to get it done. Thanks again for all your help! Garrett
** used to make industrial/construction equipment like the 50 loaders. That was just an example of how cheap obsolete industrial equipment can go. I agree, there's no way you'd buy an equivalent farm tractor for the same money and if you did, it would have a much weaker front axle and flimsy loader, plus no shuttle shift/torque converter. You can find skip loaders with three point and PTO. PTO would be needed for a brush hog etc. Three point would be a necessity for what you're planning. You should be able to use any appropriately sized three point implement you want with an industrial tractor, they're just not designed for pulling like a farm tractor. You wouldn't want to use a torque converter to plow all day, but you can do an acre here and there.
I am curious as to why you keep talking about maintence costs on a ctl. The big item is the tracks. You just have be smart about how you run it, and keep the tracks in good shape. Are you talking like a tracked skid loader or a small tracked loader/high lift? Anything you buy is going to need maintence, grease, oil, filters. The big thing would be to blow one the main hydraulic lines on a ctl, always a pain. I can see tires on skip loader getting costly trying to "log" with it. One screw up and you down and need to have it fixed. Might get away with more with a ctl. I guess to me, a ctl just makes most sense, but thats my opionon
If you are in the sand , you'll be much happier with a CTL.
That's a good question, eric. I might not have been clear enough. Yes, I am talking about a tracked skid loader. For one I can't afford a new one. For the price I'm looking to pay, I will almost surely need to put some money into it after I get it. Those tracks and their sprockets, bogies, the tracks themselves and whatever else is part of the carriage can really add up fast. Not only are we talking one side, but two sides. True, there may not be the wear on one side like there is another, but the fact remains you have two sides to deal with. That, along with the higher initial cost of the machine vs a wheeled skid, (or if you want to compare the skip to the CTL as well), they both are far less in initial cost. If there's any parts that need replacing on the track loader, I would be out that before I even get it rolling. If I'm not mistaken, I think the skips get better GPH fuel than track loaders do. I remember asking the question here not long ago and a gentleman provided a link to the JD 210LE and its fuel usage. I think I remember it being 1.1-1.9GPH. Whereas track loaders were running around 2.5GPH or more. Maybe because they run wide open. So I need to factor that in as well. Back to the maintenance. Not only would the tracks be an extra cost, but I have to factor in other components that might need replacing. If I had a wheeled skid, I buy tires and I'm done. My only worries after that is usual maintenance and the occasional part that may break and need replacing. With track I have all those extra parts where any one part underneath there could need replacing at any time. You could apply the same thing with the skip vs track loader. I'm not pretending I know everything cause I don't. That's why I'm asking you guys questions. I actually don't know hardly anything. I only know what I have read and half of that I have already forgotten, lol. So a lot of things I say may not jive because I just don't really remember. I would LOVE for someone to convince me that a CTL would cost me the least amount of money to run. Maybe even work out some figures for me and lay them out. If I saw something in writing, I could better understand. I know these are two totally different machines and it can be hard to compare the two side by side because each one does something different or maybe a little better (or worse) than the other. Hopefully that explains things a little better. I've either made it better or I've made it worse! Garrett
You are correct. That is one big plus with the CTL. As a matter of fact, that could turn out to be one of the more important things to consider. Thanks! Garrett
Skid steer more versatile IMO. Track vs tires... I prefer tires. Cheaper to maintain and to buy. Also better traction. Not as good on mud or lawns though. Not sure on sand. 20k can buy a decent skid steer.
Not trying to be rude but a two minute search on craigslist found these in my area,both under 20,000. All with decent hours, decent shape looks like, and leaves enough for fixing it up in your budget and maybe attachments http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/4243842105.html http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/hvo/4243842105.html There were two ads for grapples with free shipping in the USA for around $2000 I personally haven't seen too many undercarriage parts wear out on a ctl. I maybe wrong but think something like above will last you along time if you try not to beat the crap out of it.
Not being rude at all. I'm not finding those type machines in my area. A lot of the ones I'm looking at are beat to crap and they are still asking good money for them. I have looked on Craigslist, equipment trader places and just about everywhere. The one you provided links for is in very good shape and very clean and at a very good price. That is not the norm in this area. You are more than welcome to check out dallas/ftworth area craigslist and see what you can find that is comparable. I would be happy to check them out. Remember, it's just not about initial costs, but long-term cost. I have no idea how long the tracks and its components last, but if you say they last a good long while if you are careful how you treat the machine than I will definitely consider going that route. Garrett
I think I heard at work we get around 900-1000hours out of a set of tracks on our ctl. Thats with either inexperienced guys operating it that don't think, or the owner of the company running it at his house, so basically one in the same are always in it. And yes just did a quick craigslist in dallas fort worth, didn't find much that I liked either Seems like everyone and their brother has a ctl in my area, probably why they are cheaper and in nicer shape
I think I had read where one can get up to 1500 hrs if really careful and depending on terrain and operator that could be stretched out to as much as 2k hrs. I like that idea, but that would be with all new components I'm sure. I really need the CTL. I have a slight problem I never mentioned. My pole barn only sits at a max height of 88 inches. All CTLs would fit in there, but the skips are too tall!! The JD 210 is 9 inches taller and the Case 570 is 20 inches taller!!! I would have to rework my barn just to get them in there. If I would have found a machine like the one in your link, I wouldn't even be typing in this thread right now. I didn't know CTL's could be found in that good of shape at that price! Gosh I'm sick.... I appreciate all of your help. Garrett
If I were in your shoes, I would pick a CTL. I have owned skiploaders and have had problems with the ** versions I was around. Ford skips are good, but both them and the ** only have float and no down pressure on the rear. Case and JD both make really good Skips, and they would be my only 2 choices. For a skip, a Case with a 4-in-1 bucket would be best. 4X4 a must. The downside is as you already know the lack of versatility. One way around that is to adapt the front to a skid steer style coupler so you could use attachments. You will give up some size, but gain usefulness. For CTL, I have a Cat 287 MTL. I have been very happy with the utility of it, but when I get a chance to upgrade, I will get a CTL like a 289. Cat is my number one choice, first for my dealer support, and for the strength and ease of control of the machine. I have been in a Deere and did not like it. It was personal preference for me. Bobcat is good, and Kubota seems to be a good machine, but my choice is Cat. Your choice may be different for a variety of reasons. One of mine is comfort in the machine. With a CTL, you can get forks to move things with, and you will be surprised how often you need them. Get a good tooth bucket, and a smooth lip bucket. A 4-in-1 with teeth would be a good choice as the toothed bucket. A good brush grapple/root rake would round out the beginners items. You can always add things like post hole augers, trenchers, and other specialized items as needed once you have the tractor to hang them on. I also build a lot of attachments by buying the blanks and constructing things like V buckets, land planes, large capacity buckets, material handling booms, and the list goes on. Good luck to you.
And I am surprised at myself for pushing a ctl on you because I personally hate them. We have a takeuchi tl150 at work and i hate it. It beats the crap out of you. It squeaks, rattles and drives you nuts all day in it. The company before had a cat 287, thats the cadilliac of ctls in my opinion. Smooth to operate, quiet, comfort most of the day. I probably only spend maybe 15 hours a year in one now, so im not the best judge on them. But I think the versatility of them is awesome and the attachments are endless. Dont forget you can always rent attachments too if you wont have a long term use for them. I don't know if you would consider shipping one to you, but I would bet if you got one nice enough and cheap enough, you would consider it. I am not working much right now if you have interest in either of those two, Id be willing to go take a look for you. They are actually pretty close to each other and within an hour drive of me.
Thanks, Jerry. Every vote for the CTL makes me grin even more. Like I told eric (i guess that's his name if not sorry eric!) if I were to find a machine like that I would more than likely pull the trigger. Problem is, I just can't find them like that in this area. In the shape they are in, I would immediately have to put money in it. Some of the tracks I have seen are just terrible. You can up your price from 20k to 30 k and hardly any other machines come up. It's ridiculous. I don't have a lot of choices for dealer support in my area. Deere and Cat are about the only ones I have. Deere being about 5 miles away and Cat around 30 miles. Garrett
That's another thing I really need to do is try some out and not be satisfied with the first decent one I run across. Even though if I stall for too long, it might be gone! But to get the feel of them and how they operate and whether they are comfortable or not will be important to me. I appreciate the offer on the machines, but I would prefer to buy locally if at all possible. It sure is tempting, though, from the junk I have run across. Why does everyone think their junk is gold? I don't get it. Garrett
eric, just out of curiosity, how much would it cost to ship something like that from PA to Tx? Would I get door to door service? Garrett
I really wouldn't have a clue on the shipping rate. Just an operator here. But as long you can get a tuck to your place it would be door to door. I bet some one might have an idea on here though. Have you thought of renting one for the a weekend to try it. There are different controls per machine. Some have pedals and joysticks. Some have just joysticks. Don't take what I said as bad. They are not my first choice to run. I am usually in a 480 kobelco hoe or a d6n. I like those machines ha ha. But the ctls sure are handy when you need them. They can do a fantastic job
I think there's a rental place in Tyler. Funny you mention Taks cause I think that's what they rent. LOL. Maybe that's not the best route to go. No seriously, that might be a start and at least I could get the feel for one. I think they even had them for sale, but of course they looked like they had been through world war III. ointhead Garrett
A lot of people love taks. Everyone at work loves it, but no one else has ever been in a cat one. I have run taks, cats, new Hollands and bobcat tracked ones. Ill take the cat. Heard alot of good on John Deere but I am really tall and they are mostly pedals and joysticks. I am stuffed in them to begin with and with bad knees and ankles rather run a full hydrostatic one. Taks are full hydro. Rent it and try it. It will be worth the money to find out if you like it and if you like that brand. I just do t see a skip loader doing what you want effectively. I'd rather have a backhoe to do it than a skip loader. It's the versatility of the ctl I like. We have a ambusher brush hog for ours it take down a 6" tree with no problem. I see that being valuable to you from the sounds of what you are clearing
Thanks I could only try one to get feeling of controls and what not. I have no dealer support around here for them. I agree the CTL is the best route. I never really wanted to go with a tractor, but the skip offered more in terms of weight and lifting cap, but that's just not going to be enough of reason. I need versatility and the CTL will give me that. I'm just going to have to suck it up and realize there might be a little more cost in a more productive, versatile and more capable machine. What do you mean by full hydro?
I guess another reasoning for me leaning towards a ctl is you don't see skip loaders too often in my area. Been doing commercial development for 7 years now and the job I am on now. Is the first time I ever saw one on a commercial development. The pavers brought it in for a few days then hauled it out and brought in 2 dozers with GPS to spread the stone sub base. We always use dozers and graders for that too. And GPS. So I am assuming the skip loader couldn't keep up or did t have a good enough operator for it. Their work is not to pretty trust me. Very half assed. And the have almost 15 acres of asphalt to put down. And it's all mud now. Ha ha
Same here. They are about as scarce as hens teeth. I think California has the most, but that does me no good. Ol well, that might be for the best!
I am probably stating that wrong. The ones with just joysticks, one controls the movement of the machine and the other controls the bucket and boom up and down. It's all run by your hands. With pedals one controls the bucket. One controls the boom. Your levers control the direction of the machine. I like full joysticks for comfort of me
The cats have full joysticks? what is the difference in electric vs manual? I had read that manual is more reliable, but more old school? Say if I got one 2005-2008 or whatever, do you think I could work on it without calling for dealer support? More than likely I would need to do all the work myself. I would have no way to haul it to the dealer and would have to see if I could set up a contract to get it serviced and or fixed in case I couldn't do it myself.
Clarification. I COULD haul it. I have a 3/4 ton Ford, but I have no trailer. Even if I had a trailer, I think a CTL would be over the weight limit and be in CDL territory.
Yeah I'm not real sure on what years were electric vs manual. Manual is always easier to work on. Service isnt too difficult most of that is just fluids and filters. If I owned one I would learn how to do that Its the electrical stuff that's hard to fix by yourself. Not sure on your mechanical ability. But hydraulic lines breaking seems to be my biggest fear. Some of those are a pain to change. I bet you could get o e of these machines they are easy to learn on. And manage to get a lot more done quicker than you think. If you got the common sense and the ability to plan ahead. Which it seems you do. Run the balls off it get your stuff done. Sell it for more than its worth down there. Then by an ag tractor to Maintain your land
Exactly my thoughts. I figured if I wound up with a track I could minimize fuel usage and wear and tear by planning. Great minds do think alike, ha ha. Hey I appreciate all of your help. You, and others, have convinced me that the CTL is the way to go. Sometimes I think more into things than I need to. I can actually talk myself out of something by doing that, lol. I guess I just needed to hear some opinions from others who know these machines and have worked around them. I used to work on heavy industrial radiators, but they were always pulled from the machines before we got a hold of them. Hey thanks again and I'll continue looking for a CTL. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a decent one at a good price. One can only hope!
Good think you be happy with one. And seriously consider getting one shipped. Might be worth it Run it till your do e and if prices are that high down there. I bet you can get your money back. A machine is a machine. Find what you like and decide. I am serious about looking at them for you. If you could be content with with buying one here ill bring it to my place and you can arrange shipping. I know guys that will move it for me. I can even grab the 550 and trailer from work and move it an easy place to put it on a truck for you. Pm. I know it's a tough decision to do but I have bought vehicles from the west and been satisfied. All it is is a skid loader. I like that John Deere I posted. Or the cat.
Thanks, eric, I'll sure keep that in mind.
Let me start this post by saying I have never run a skip loader. The closest I ever got to one is at a auction where they use them to load trucks. Now that being said, if they grade anything like a backhoe you are in for a lot of frustration. The damn things bounce and wobble in the cut and make for a tough time trying to make a nice clean swale around a house. As for track life in a CTL I have a JD332. You can get around 1000 hours out of a set of tracks as long you keep the garbage off the tracks and getting run over by the lower rollers. I have yet to wear the tread off a set of tracks. Usually the inside of the tracks get chunked out and you start breaking the cables inside the tracks. As for the rest of the undercarriage we have about 4000 hours on the sprockets and lower rollers and they are still going strong. We replaced the big rollers in the front and back at about 3000 hours. Somebody else mentioned renting before you buy. I would highly recommend this. That will be the best money you will spend to make this dissision. It's a lot easier to spend say $500 for a CTL for the weekend and find out that it's not what your looking for then spend $25,000 and find out you made a mistake.
Garrett As you compare the CTL's, one thing to ponder is that Cat has suspension where the track frames mount to the machine frame. They ride better than any other because of this. Bobcat has optional suspension consisting of springs under the rollers, but not the idlers. Better than nothing, but no where near the ride of a Cat. I have ran Kubota, Deere, Bobcat, and Tak, all for short times, but the poor ride of any of them stood out against my 287 MTL. The MTL ride is better than the CTL, but on the Cat they both have the same track frame suspension. The MTL tracks soak up some more, but at the expense of durability. I have posted before about track life, and have gotten as much as 1600 hrs on my 287, and a little as 500 hrs in tough conditions.
Another not so popular option for a skip loader is a JCB 212 like this http://www.farmcountrytrader.com/grand-junction-ia/2000-jcb-212su-10540317.htm I cant seem to find the height online but if I remember correctly they are a little shorter than the JD/Case, so it might fit under your barn. I've spent a decent amount of time on one and really liked it, 4wd and 4 wheel steer. I know you said you didn't want to hear about other machines but a backhoe would do everything you want to do, with more lifting capacity and the added ability to really dig. A quick craigslist search shows a few decent machines in your area and price range.
bf, thanks for your reply. Those are the kinds of things I was looking for. Numbers are always good to see and it gives me more of an idea of what to expect. I had just assumed (I seem to do a lot of assuming) that the rest of the undercarriage would wear right along with the tracks. It's good to hear that (at least in your case) that the other parts wear at a slower rate. That is good news. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences with your machine. I do plan on doing some renting and think it's a great idea. Jerry, thanks for the info. I have read where folks have talked about the better ride in the Cat. They also seem to like the controls and talk about how smooth and precise they are. I think they are all joystick and no foot controls? They sound like nice machines and I have my eyes on them for sure. I have already been to my Cat dealer inquiring about a service contract. Seems they might be able to hook me up with one depending on size of machine. Don't know why that matters. But they can hook me up with one even if I purchase from an independent dealer. What would kill me is the charge per mile just to get to my place. I would have to figure that in with all the rest of the stuff. There seems to be more Cats in my area than any other. LT, I think I pretty much have made up my mind to just go ahead and go forward with a CTL. I just needed a little convincing and the men seem to be pretty good at that here. I thought about that, though, but decided that it just wouldn't work for me. That hoe sits waaaay up there and that would finish off the rest of the barn as soon as I forgot it was on there!!! LOL. Appreciate you chiming in. I'll always welcome any and all opinions, regardless. Garrett
It did sound like you had made up you mind already! I just thought I would throw that out there, especially if your going to rent first to try a few machines out. You could rent hoe for a day, you might just find you like it better. I know the CTL's are very versatile and popular but personally I'm not a fan. One negative to using a CTL for the work you describe is for your driveway project. If it requires a lot of fill dirt in areas your going to want to compact it. A CTL isn't going to compact like a wheeled loader will. But it sounds like that project might be small compared to the rest of the work you have planned for this machine.
You are absolutely correct. The drive isn't that long, or at least the section I would need to re-do. And I would only need to grade one side of the house. Extending my drive and completing a circle drive might be more a challenge, but I think I can make it work with the CTL. I can just rent what ever implement I need for that. True, most of my work will consist of cleaning and clearing woods. Gonna be lots of fun!