The time has come for a new undercarriage on our 450H LGP. My question, is it worth the extra cost to go with Berco Italian or go cheaper with ITR Korean. The Berco's cost is almost twice. Do you get twice the wear out of it? Supplier is claiming same warranty of 4000 hrs. Just hoping to draw off of others experience.
Got 4200 hrs out of a set of ITM el cheapos on a d6r with 30 inch pads I thought it was pretty good?
Hello we have had real good luck with the TREK brand undercarraige we run on our cat d6h and had a set on our d8r. really liked the price as well. if you are interested let me know and i can give you there phone # and web site. our last rollers and idlers were shipped to us from texas with no freight charges.
Hey kbeen ! Welcome ! Nice to see another Okie on here. Where you from ?
I have very limited experince in undercarriage but one bit I have is this. Where i am undercarriage was orderd for 4 machines, 2 dozers and two excvators, it was purchased on cheapest price. there was a wide range of different brands that were supplied. I have already had some of the new track rollers fail on a PC200 in about 1400hrs. They do work in terrible conditon but previous rollers had lasted many thousands of hrs. Warranty does not usually cover repalcement costs or downtime. I would not buy on price alone.
my d5h lgp had itm rails on it. omg junk. i replaced the entire undercarriage with CAT stuff. it was not cheap but it gives me piece of mind. I heard the itm tracks have such bad tolerances from new they dont even hold the oil in the pins n bushings very long. jmho
hello dirtmonkey, i am from the okemah area. west of okc appprox. 90 miles.
sorry that is east of okc approx 90 miles. to early to be thinking straight.
Thanks for the feed back however I thought that the ITM rails were supposed to be of better quality over the ITR rails.
I've never thought one brand ran twice as long as another and if they are willing to warrenty the stuff the same, what are you out by trying the cheaper parts?? If you don't like them you can always go back to berco next time around. I've run most every brand of aftermarket stuff, along with oem parts, never saw much difference between any of them personally, as they say when they're worn out, its time to replace them, to me operating conditions determine more of life expectancy than brand ever will, but some may disagree.
AT&SW, FYI...The oem chains for Deere at one time were being made by Berco and recently I have heard that ITR is making the chains for the new smaller Deere machines. My thoughts are Deere wouldn't put "junk" on equipment labeling it as oem. I have seen the oem and different aftermarket chains on the 450h,j machines on my track presses and have not noticed any significant difference on the wear. OEM and aftermarket brands have the same warranty 3yr/ 4000 hr prorated warranty or 100% worn. ITR is a Korean chain and Berco and ITM are both Italian chains. The main difference is $$$$.. I hope this gives you some insite and helps you make a decision. Good Luck, QuickTrax
Any undercarriage warranty covers all dry pins and bushings on narrow track machines and 50% replacement of any dry pins and bushings on LGP machines. This is the standard warranty with all brands aftermarket or OEM.
QuickTrax, while on the subject of track chains, who makes other brands of chains and undercarriage parts for most of the leading manufactuers, I'm guessing its all sourced out, I can't imagine deere, case, cat, linkbelt, komatsu, kobelco or a dozen other brands have their own plants making chains, spockets, and rollers for every machine they sell, just a curiosity question. I'm thinking berco made most of the case stuff for years, maybe still does I don't know.
I know that DCF (Dae Chang Forging--maybe mis-spelled) makes a significant amount of chains for multiple equipment companies. I have heard that ITR is making chains for smaller Deere machines. If you spent enough $$$ with a manufacturer you could have Randy88 stamped in each link. I believe Berco still makes all of the bigger chains for Deere. I know salesman for aftermarket manufacturers that have been to forging plants in Korea and stacks of new Cat links were on pallets. When it comes to rollers, Jinsung was once a major manufacturer of aftermarket rollers and Cat eventually bought out Jinsung. Brands like ITR and V-Track have manufacturers make rollers, idlers, and segments for them and stamp their logo on the parts when forged. A company called KTSU, its abreviated because I can't pronounce it and surely can't spell it, makes rollers and they are in either Korea or China, another company called Sajun (spelling) makes Idlers. I am not sure who makes Case undercarriage. KUT (Korean Undercarriage Track??) is a big producer of chains in Korea. There are many other forging companies overseas. Undercarriage has become a big melting pot of manufacturers around Korea and China. Berco was strictly a Italian company and now they have plants in China. Cat has u/c parts made overseas as well. I am not sure where Cats u/c components are assembled but I do some parts are made overseas. Thanks, QuickTrax
Thanks quicktrax, thats what I wanted to know, basically to buy company undercarriages from say cat, your just paying for the honor to buy from your local cat dealer, most of the stuff is jobbed out from whatever plant overseas thats going to cater to them, cut them a deal and logo their name on the parts, is this the jest of the situation? Now for the loaded question, are cat and all the rest so much better quality than aftermarket? Since most is made overseas anyhow and just labeld with the manufacturers logo on it that you pay for? I don't mean to put you on the spot but I've run new parts and also aftermarket and personally can't tell much if any difference between them. I'm pretty sure berco made case parts, because the parts guys told me that was the way it was, that and berco was stamped on the sprockets when I changed out the worn out stuff on two of my dozers. I figured cat did the same thing, either bought from someone else or just plain bought out the plant overseas and that way instead of buying cheaper chinese or korean parts, they made them themselves in the same plant, just had the cat logo on the outside of the building in korea or china was all, but nobody would ever admit it to me at cat. I always thought and still do life expectancy had more to do with operating conditions than brand and still do until someone can prove otherwise and tell me where all the componets are made.
Randy88, I do know that some of the Cat u/c parts are made overseas but I do believe they are assembled in the U.S. I don't know if this is due to Cat using its own sealing technology and qualilty control. The "Cat Classic" u/c is just an aftermarket brand that Cat sells as their own. Most of the links have NX##### on them. The brand is actually called Nexus. I don't know which supplier overseas makes them for Cat. I have heard DCF makes most of it. Berco makes most of their u/c in Italy. They have opened up a facility in China for building components like roller shells and mounting collars. I do believe most of the Berco parts are still assembled in Italy. One reason I believe Cat and Berco parts are so high is because the cost of assembly is not as cheap as the labor in Korea or China. Keep in mind, I could be wrong on some of this but this is what I have been told by different aftermarket companies. My thoughts...We are not re-inventing the wheel. I know its really hard for Cat and Berco to compete in todays u/c market because of the cost of their products. Any Cat product support rep. will tell you Cat is the best thing that has ever been made and most will tell you the rest is junk because that is what they are trained to believe. We have put u/c on D3 to D9R machines and have not ran into any problems that cat has not seen with their own products. Keep in mind this is what I have heard through the years of being in the u/c business. Just about all dealers in the U.S. have some sort of aftermarket u/c brand they can sell you that they say they will stand behind even Cat dealers. If they claim aftermarket parts are so bad, why do they sell it (Cat Classic) and why do they say they will stand behind it. Any Cat rep will try hard to sell you genuine Cat products and if they have the opportunity to sell you "Cat Classic" parts they will do that as well. Keep in mind most reps are on commission and don't get paid unless they sell parts and service. Sorry so long, QuickTrax
Quicktrax what would it take (appox) to put a new undercarriage on a 953C with 18" pads? and what brand would you reccomend? Thanks
JBGASH, I know the rules of this forum are strict on soliciting which includes giving pricing so I do my best to abide by them. A fair price at an undercarriage shop in your area would be between 11k-12k. Keep in mind the 953C has multiple s/n breaks and pricing would depend on your s/n. Your machine could have either a 5/8 or a 3/4 bolt hole chain. It has the same chain as the Cat D5H dozer with the 7.5" pitch. If you have the 3/4 bolt hole chain it's the same chain as the higher s/n D5H or the cat D6M. Good Luck, QuickTrax
Thanks quicktrax for the explaination
Thank you for the input, local dealer matched aftermarket price so we went through them. All new parts were installed on monday and have 30 hrs on the new undercarriage. First undercarriage swap that I have done by myself a long exhausting day.
Hi ,glad to know and join you .I am a freshman in undercarriage field. Hope I can learn a lot from you .
KTSU is a Chinese company,but it adopts Komatsu technology and has a joint venture with Komatsu.The quality of rollers is on the same level with DCF,but I am not sure about the chains. QuikTrax,do you know how to compare the drawings of undercarriage parts? I just start my work in this field,but want to be professional.Is there any main specification need to be attentioned? Many thanks!
I'll throw my 2c in here. Now my experience is in open-pit mining running tracked machines like D10 & D11 or tractors of a similar size from the Dark Side. Now on machines like that running flat-out for 20 hours/day maybe 7000+ hours/yr on average you can't afford to make mistakes on undercarriage. This is the other end of the spectrum to someone running say his D5 for maybe 30-40 hrs/wk moving a bit of dirt. On that machine you can look on price for your undercarriage needs, in my type of application you have to look at quality because the last thing you want is your tractors in the shop all the time having undercarriage work done. If they're in the shop they're not earning money. We also pay close attention to how much tractors get walked from work site to work site within the mine. I've posted pics on here before of the 100T lowboy we use to move all our tractors, drills, & backhoes, and believe me it's kept busy all the time. Any distance over 1500 metres (about 1 mile) and it gets put on the lowboy. "If it's walking it ain't workin' ......." is our motto. Consequently we can have tractors go 10,000+ hours on rollers and idlers, and a similar number of hours on link groups (rails to some). We have tractors with 20,000+ hours that haven't even had major or minor bogies touched yet. Our big consumables are grousers (shoes get 4 lives - original & 3 re-grouserings) and sprocket segments. I had plenty of experience on previous job sites with Berco undercarraige and quite frankly now I wouldn't touch it with the proverbial 40-foot pole. For obvious reasons we wouldn't even think of going with some of the "bit part players" in the u/c market in our type of operation. It would cost us far more than it would potentially save.
Well said Nige...... experience has shown me if you want quality you pay for it.
I visited the Cat factory at Peoria a couple years ago, at that time they were making undercarriage at their facility for the machines built in the USA. Thats not to say they don't outsource for the Asian or European markets. We have a Deere 750c with Deere's coated bushings that has outlasted the standard undercarriage by far. We also have a D7H II with ITM that has been a big disappointment over previous Cat undercarriages in terms of hours of use. We look at several things when it's time for undercarriage, operating conditions, maintenance (track tensioning for conditions), brand, and cost of replacement. There are alot of factors when you are trying to determine what to buy and how much to spend. And at times it turns out to be a crap shoot.
kbeen. Do you think that brand may have undercarriage parts for an old Allis HD 21b?
Allis Nut that is very possible. here is there info. 1Trek Inc .1515 Osprey Dr, Desoto, TX 75115 » Map (972) 224-1589
Allis nut. HD21 is same pitch as D8H 9 inch. Length no-links will be different, but you can cut to suit. Just check the width. But do know in my younger days took the tracks off a HD21A and put them on a D8H. Had to lengthen them. But owner used the AC rollers on the D8H. modified the D8 end caps to fit ac rollers. Lots of things can be done if your short on cash and long on time !!. Something to check anyway.
I'm in the market for a undercarriage for a 953C track loader ( 2zn00742). This day in time I can't see spending the money for a CAT system, so I was wondering if anyone new anything about VTRACK, ITM or ITM? I don't want any of that CHINA JUNK. Any info is appreciated.
Go with the ITR. ITR is Korean/China and they have been the OEM for small Deere dozers for about 2 years. BERCO lost the contract.
undercarriage for a 953C track loader ( 2zn00742). JDFG1974. We'd be glad to quote you on any undercarriage parts you need and we have warehouses across the country including one in GA. Feel free to contact me anytime. Steve. www.pdmechanical.com
actually,JINSUNG produced rollers and seals in the past years but CAT bought the seal factory from JINSUNG finally. we supply bushings for jinsung,they are used for track rollers
Ok, i don't have any direct experience with heavy equipment U/C parts, but i'll give people a good worldwide manufacturing insight from my work in the aerospace industry. The very same factory, regardless of location can turn out both high-quality parts, and junk at the same time. It all depends on who the customer is, and what their quality requirements are. I'd like to think that the major players (whether OEMs, or high-quality aftermarket suppliers) have excellent quality standards that they require their suppliers to manufacture their parts to. As a generality, some cultures around the world just have less ethical standards about making quality parts, and making substitutions. the Chinese manufacturers (in general), seem to be more likely than others to cut corners in an attempt to sneak out a little more profit, or to be able to sell parts cheaper, or both. Now, if a major OEM is buying their parts, and watching them carefully, they can't substitute junk, because their customer will see it, and will stop buying their parts. The problem comes, where nobody is watching (I.E. the supplier is selling them under their own name, or selling to a customer that isn't watching carefully) quality substitutions can easily be made. The same supplier that makes OEM parts, can then make their own parts, using the same tools and processes, using cheaper raw materials, and/or eliminating some of the less-visable process steps. Or, they can keep the scrap parts that are unacceptable to their primary (OEM) customer, and sell those parts under a different name, instead of throwing them out. It really doesn't matter where, or what factory makes it, it depends on who's name is on it, and how well they stand behind it. I guess to summarize, major names are much more likely to sell consistent high quality parts, which will have consistent long life, because they hold their manufacturers to high quality standards. The lesser brands / unknown brands are much more likely to be inconsistent in their quality. You might get good parts, you might get junk parts, you really never know. As to which to buy? I guess you have to look at your budget, and your tolerance for inconsistent quality parts, and unknown lifespan.
Yes, and no. 13 front wheel bearings in 100k miles on a Chevy colorado all from MOOG aint my idea of any such controls on said large company.
Occasionally bad parts do slip through "the system", but as an engineer who deals with failure investigations somewhat regularly, it's possible, but highly unlikely you got 13 bad bearings in a row. I'd suspect some other component on your truck was manufactured improperly, and is causing them to go bad. When bad parts do slip thorough, somebody who stands behind their parts and replaces them without hesitation is valuable.
Sorry Mike, 2wd truck (so no drive axle torquing issues, just 4 bolts on a flange), truck was aligned, no pulling or tire wear. I've got it down to 1 hour 15 minutes, wrote down all the tools needed. Warranty yes, but it don't cover my time swapping them out. Some lasted under 2 weeks, no powerwashing either (to mess up seals) and no off road mud.
Yair . . . digger doug Wheel bearings don't fail for no reason, there has to be some other problem as mike944 points out . . . I'd swap out the hub right back to the suspension. Cheers.