have you ever worked with some one who drops the dozer blade as fast and hard as they can everytime they drop it? drives me crazy
Yes. Never worked out why.
This isn't the same thing but close. There's a church behind my house and in the winter the snow gets plowed at about 3 or 4 a.m. Well whoever the guy is in the front end loader, after he backs up for another run he drops his bucket to the pavement and just about shakes the ground. If he would just lower it to the ground he would make a whole lot of friends instead of )**^(ing off the neighbors.
We have a couple dozers at work that drop the blade no matter how gently you try to set I down. One of them was my clean up machine one day, and I was giving the operator a hard time about being a rookie (he's in his early 50s, and has been running dozer pretty much all his life). He got a bit cheesed at me and said it was the dozer........so I brought him an ice cream when I came back from my break and he was happy....lol. But seriously, it may not Bethesda operator, it may be the dozer in some cases.
Yair . . . alco. Is that so? Surely there must be an issue with the valving? Cheers.
Yeah, there are issues with the valves, but they opt not to fix them. The company that's running this place, is running everything into the ground. Hopefully they get the boot soon.
If the blade lever cals on the T series machines aren't done right it can also cause this. I had to set a few up at albian.
These are all Rs Ben. They also recently came back from Red Deer after being rebuilt.......not much good to say about Finning quality right now, to be honest.
Yair . . . ben46a or alco. Fellers I am old and thick skinned enough not to be embarrassed by my ignorance. Could you please explain this from ben46a's #7 post. LOL Cheers.
Scrub Puller I am thinking Cals would mean calibration probably the hydraulic flow rate or something like that. Sure in the newer T s that can all be changed by the computer system. I am just guessing here cause I know our new deere dozers can be done that way.
Scrub, the blade control on the T series dozers is electric control, so the calibration for the joystick positioning can be set wrong, and trick he machine into thinking it's doing something other than it is......like lowering the blade slowly....lol.
I must admit to being a right fussy brained peace of work, with a pet hate of blade droppers, instant engine shut downs, the lights left on for nowt, plus near empty fuel tanks, I would sack any driver instantly for any of these annoying to me moments, as nothing they ever do is going to make me smile other than seeing them get out of the seat,there is fair reason behind my line of thought, blade droppers= damage, instant engine shut downs = cracked heads, lights left on = needing jump starts, low fuel = cracked heads or un-needed time wasted, these sort of pilots need to be driving for someone else that needs people from the neck down.
tctractors, It's scary how two people can think alike. I read your post and thought I typed it myself.
buckfever, I have been reading this thread with my innards churning, on sites sometimes it would seem I am "Billy No Mates" as any of the above get me right Waspy, I hope you are not as sad as me???? but its all down to the way you are taught the trade from way back.
Yair . . . 390eric and alco. Thanks fellers. Takes awhile to get my old head around this electronic stuff . . . I suppose in some ways it is simpler than rods and linkage? Cheers
tctractors you hit the nail on the head, those are the people im talking about, too lazy or dumb i dont know, how a signal in your brain would tell you that free falling a dozer blade, loader bucket or anything for that matter is a good practice is beyond me. last night night i drove my scraper into a dozer pit to tell the guy some information i couldnt say over the radio, the boss was letting us off early, pulled up the guy saw me tracked down to where i was, let the dozer down and shut the engine off, earlier that day it was 97 degrees out, the sun had just went down, but standing on the tracks talking to him i could feel the engine was just hotter than hell, making all those snapping and crackling sounds, he sat and talked with me with the lights on to boot ointhead, if i was the boss or owned that 10r i would have fired him on the spot
Scrub Puller - Nothing is simpler than rods and linkages. If the blade wont lift on an old dozer, its probably because a pin fell out of the linkage. You can feel that the lever is moving too easily so you get someone to have a look at the linkages while you move the lever, and its easy to find where the problem is. Then you find a pin, a bolt, a piece of wire or anything to get you going, put it in place and you are back working again. If the blade wont lift on a new dozer, it could be loose wires, broken wires, mis-calibrated joysticks, short circuits, open circuits, you have no idea where to start, so you call the factory trained technician, and a couple of days and a few thousand dollars later you are back working again. Thats what they call progress.
I hear you big time. I always think of the wiring diagrams for the Cat loaders we had when I started working on them. One small sheet in the back of parts book. May be 4X8 inches. Now the new ones would cover a 4X8 sheet of plywood and you still need a magnifying glass to read them. And it's still the same stone coming out of the same hole in the ground that was there 40+ years ago!
Its good to see that possibly a few others are sparked up about the thinks that make my eyes spin??
Yair . . . LOL. I wondered if I'd get any reaction to that question mark on the end of my #15 post! I just don't understand why the industry has gone down this track of added complexity. I have a friend with John Deere Ag. tractor that has had a fault in the bucket lift since new. . . if you put the bucket on the ground it sometimes won't lift in the mornings . . . until it feels like it. A bit inconvenient when your loading an air seeder for planting. Ring dealer, "technician" finally arrives and by that time it's working and everything checks out fine . . . untill next time. He finally got so frustrated that he demanded the whole system be changed and was even prepared to wear the cost. Deere met him half way but it still cost close to two grand and this is just the bucket lift on a little hundred horse Ag machine. This has to be wooly headed thinking, no body asked for this B/S. Cheers.
Electronic fuel injection was looked at with the same cynicism when it became widespread... Who wants to go back to carbs? Electronics offer a great deal of opportunity.
Yair . . . lumberjack . I know what you mean but I think electronic engine management is a whole different concept to whole of machine management. I might add who wants to go back to petrol (gasoline) .LOL.
Good call, petrol/gasoline engines are trouble.
To heck with gas/diesel, lets go back to steam!
There are some of us who believe we can sense the stress on seemingly inanimate objects like machines and structures. We feel the vibrations of operating machinery through our body and can feel subtle changes in these tiny movements. We feel the stiffness of cold metal and oil, the looseness of hot metal and oil and the tension induced by load forces. We also hear the sounds that signify something may be wrong and can smell a leak of cooling fluid or the increase in temperature of an overheating machine. We also notice the tiny spots of oil or coolant on the ground and don't ignore them. We abhor operating equipment harshly and constantly banging bucket linkages against stops and fast dropping dozer blades. We drive machinery quickly but smoothly, not hammering equipment to bits over rough ground. Then there are those who when hearing the crunching sound from a final drive and the motor load up, give it more throttle and try and power through until broken gears punch their way through castings. These people also see low oil pressure or high coolant temperature and think let the computer stop the machine and keep operating. Also these operators suddenly see a missing bucket tooth and think let the next shift worry about it and keep operating, meaning the shank is damaged and has to be replaced. And don't get me going on cutting edges How hard is it to see when you are down to the cutting edge support material on a dozer or grader? tctractors, not only do you have a fine sensitivity to machinery in general but you have a great respect for mature machines like the old D7E four bangers etc. (I still remember the sound and feel operating of one of these grand old dozers from 30 years ago.) I salute you and others in this thread who demonstrate such a fine sensitivity to the equipment they operate or repair. AusDave
Blow me AusDave you can't half spell good, for a second I thought I was reading a lump out of a book?? the daftest thing is when I was a young fella I was mounted up on a D7 47A pulling an Empire Box on a fresh field site all by myself, this tractor was done up like a new pin and after working on Bulk muck with 631's plus an army of tractors and box's of all shapes going like Hell for 14 to 16 hour shifts, this was without doubt the best bit of a job I ever did, no one to dog me or leaving the hard muck for me, it was just me and a great chunk of yellow iron and I was the King pin on the site, they always say when you are at your most Happy point in your life you wont know it, but I realized fast that this was as good as things could get, but boy did I look after the tractor.
Yair . . . Well said AusDave and I endorse tctractors comments. I have always thought the enclosed cabs, A/C and tunes . . . and in particular the electric/pilot controls could isolate the operator from the real world of sounds and feels and smells. Once you have been on a machine for awhile you become aware of it's little foibles and characteristics and if it deviates or develops an extra "feel" or sound or vibration it's time to have a look . . . this is one of the big advantages of having a smallish outfit with the operators having "their" machine. And yes AusDave as I have posted here before don't get me started on cutting edges. Overlength cutting edge bolts are one of my pet hates . . . you don't need a gas axe to change/flip edges. Cheers
Ya, 637 slayer, maybe this story will help. I haven't run a dozer for 40 years, but when I did, it was when I was young and only run smaller machines , the operator had a puking hangover and asked me to run the machine, a D-8 cat. One steering clutch wouldn't release, so to steer, I had to go backwards and twist the machine the other way till lined up... Then, as I dropped the blade.... Bang!!! Whap-Whap-Whap!!! then nothing.... So, as I found out, Never, Never, Never drop a cable operated blade half way. Drop it all the way down, then pull up. You see, I broke the cable in an instant, not knowing.... So that's what your guy is doing.... He was probably trained on an old D-8 Cat with winch-cable up and down. With Winch cable up and down, always!!! drop the blade to the ground with a thump and then pull it up where you want it...... Your're welcome!!!
Yair . . . No!..No!..No! With all due respect Errol that is not right! It may have been the case on that particular tractor but a decently adjusted PCU can give excellent control pretty much as good as hydraulics. Cheers.
the dozer he is running is a d11r, the hyd work fine, ive run the machine quite a bit, even opposite shifts from the person im talking about, when i was runnning it the cutting edge bolts were always loose, we tightened with an inch impact, i even would take a large hammer and beat on the heads while the mechanic would try to rattle the nut on, when he drops that blade you can hear it from a long way away, he drops it that way everytime he backs up and pushes out, so sometimes over a hundred times a day
I can't imagine why he would be doing that.... maybe he figures he's knocking "stuck muck" off of his blade??? I've also seen hoe operators whacking their buckets down for no reason, makes me cringe at the damage to pins and bushings, let alone the cutting plates and hold down bolts.
The proper way to lower a cable blade is to let it down slow and easy and keep all slack out of the cable. If you do not, you WILL snap the cable.
Try dropping the blade on his foot one time. That'll cure him. If that fails cut his hands off with a machete ..............
I don't think it is a good idea to drop a dozer blade. But why do they have a quick drop valve built in that lets it happen?
Yair . . . Plant Fitter Dunno mate. My guess is that it's part of the "Float" function. Cheers.
My understanding is the quick drop valves allow a controlled drop (not freefall) and make ready to supply down pressure. The make up valves take care of those situations when float or dozer movement exceeds the pump rate.
I always thought the valving on the hoist cylinders was for oil re-generation (re-cycle valving) this enables faster action on filling the downward stroke, as for dropping any blade cable or hydraulic' its not the way to perform, I was on a biggish muck shift site about 15years ago that had about 10 D8's and box outfits digging out fill from a burrow pit, 1 of the drivers at the end of the shift pulled up with the box (463) still stuffed full of muck and dropped the box down from the travel position to the ground with hell of a thump, this resulted in slack lines in the sheaves, next morning the lazy driver fired up the tractor pulled on the hoist lever resulting in the slack cable getting caught up under another fall of cable, so now the box would not lower or hoist, the outfit was fit for now't, the slasher sent me to sort it, the cable had been damaged in the jamb up so all I could do was block the raised box then cut the cable and re-rope the box, the pilot was sacked on the spot in some order by the slasher (muck shift forman) but this dropping blade thing is not a common thing to happen, it would seem its the same few pilots that always keep doing it.
Yair . . . LOL. tctractors that's why I asked on another thread if the operators fixed their cable stuff-ups. It tends to clarify the thinking if they know it's up to them fit a new blade rope of re-reeve a scoop . . . either cop it sweet or hit the toe. That said a moments inattention and not the little bit of slack needed on rough ground (especialy with an LP or a Wooldrige) can make you feel a propper goose. Cheers.
It's all down to flow rates. When the blade cylinders move downwards if they move too fast they can actually demand more oil than the pump can supply. The purpose of the quick drop valve is to send the return oil coming back to tank from the rod (bottom) side of the cylinder direct to the piston side of the cylinder so that the pump does not cavitate. It's there to protect the system, not to let the operator drop the blade faster .........
are they dropping it on purpose or is there a problem with the quick drop valve.... opps look at me...what type of dozer is it....komatsu uses a quick drop valve...my bad
Thanks for explaining.
I work at a coal power plant and we have 2 992 dozers they have been equiped with a dozer blade instead of a loader bucket. WE have a concrete pad outside our shop and 1 operator drops the blade ever time he sets it down. These blades are 25 feet long and 9 feet tall so when it hits the ground we no who is running this machine. It shakes the whole building.
I have noticed on some Cats, like a D7E 48A or D6C 10K that some don't have the quick drop valves on the lift cylinders. The Army version of the D7E didn't have them. My question is if it's for system protection, why would it be an option? Or, are the valves relocated from the cylinders for some reason? Here's a military D7 without the quick drop valves on the cylinders: http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8432601& Here's a 48A with them: http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6173166&
Yes, I'd like to see more info also as at least at one time on the older stuff the blade quick drop valving was an operation option. Had nothing to do with pump cavitation protection which was handled by seperate "make up" valving. Blade drop was also a controlled event with quick or slow drop depending on amount of lever movement to the control valve. I'd post the Cat quick drop info but it is two solid pages of reading. Can't say what the systems may have evolved to........
And costly fixes. Carbs only had 3 parts that could stop vit working properly and any monkey could fix them.