Just wondering what the percentage of union to non, and self employed construction people are on here.
Run Heavy Equipment for a Large aggregate and concrete company. Most days are spent on an excavator stripping quarries, digging out wash pits, and anything else that is required. Dozers, loaders, and all other types of equipment also get ran as well as moving equipment or working in the shop as needed. Pays well, good insurance and I'm happy. Trbo
Self employed
non...
Union/ Self Employed. I got in when I was 20 doing rental work with my backhoe, now I do mainline water and sewer, and site work.
I work in the family biz...
non
worked for about a half dozen companys all non-union
union
Family business: dozer, excavator, belly dump, end loader, water tender. Mostly for neighbors... ponds, brush, sight prep, etc. Logged our own timber till price went bad... Clark 967 log skidder. Fire fighting: Fed, State gov... BIA, USFS, DNRC. Union: AFSCMF, drive snow plow truck (seasonal) for the Montana Department of Transportation... mostly on I-90. OCR
Union for me:exactly
Work my dad's biz which is soon to be mine.
Well, for my day job I am a non-union supervisor/project coordinator. All evening and weekends I am self employed operator, mechanic, welder, secretary, janitor, and quite a few I'm sure I missed.
I take money in with one hand and give it out with the other. :Banghead
Thats what you call.......... CASH FLOW:drinkup:usa
You forgot an all of the above option. I work for whoever pays. The union has a problem with it, too damn bad. What are you supposed to do when there is no union work, sit at home and starve?
I agree. Put me down for all three, too. I voted for "self employed", but I go where the work is/was... I am in a union, too. srs_mn
why would i pay someone to get layed off the union is just a gloryfyed temp service :IMO
Very well stated...:iagree A guy I worked with on a job in Ct. recently was saying the exact same thing. He got laid off from his $40.00/hr. union operators job due to slow season, and hadn't been called back yet by end of this past May. He took a non-union job where I was for exactly 1/2 what he was getting with the previous employer, but it's full time, year-round work, so it's a wash in his opinion.
Organize to SURVIVE Live Better, Work Union Only the strong survive, I.U.O.E.
I work for my uncle as his main operator/ project manager. Run and treat all the equipment as if it were mine though. I will be oneday:drinkup
We have the same job! Collect $10k on Wed. and pay $9998 worth of bills on Friday, at least I got to keep the $2. Self-employed.
This is always a tough one for me to answer. Lets say that I'm a slut or whore. I go where the money is.... or who ever is willing to pay "MY" price. I've worked union jobs and scabbed at the same time. I'll always keep my dues paid up. Union jobs are "gravy" jobs. My job with ECCO was "gravy" and much easier compared to what I'm doing now. But (union) work has been slow and I refuse to sit back and wait for a handout from anyone. I'll be damned if I'll sit in a line or on a list waiting my turn to work. Not when I can go out and sell myself and set my price. My side gig turned full time is an example. Prevailing wage on job sites and more than my union wage any other time. I'm even working today since I took Friday off. Yeah, first day off since I started. This has turned into a 24/7 job with an average of 10-14 hrs M-F. This full time part time gig will last through December. That's what I've committed myself to. My union job was understanding and didnt have a problem with it. I talk with them on a weekly basis and they know that I intend to go back when my commitment here is completed. At that time depending on the work load and money, I'll weigh things out. Then I'll decide if I'll stay where I am now or go back to my other full time "gravy" union job. Ya know people... Nothing is sure or guaranteed. It's all about survival, watching your back and looking out for #1. I've been hungry before and had to do without. Lesson learned: I'll never, ever go there again.
Just joined up with IUOE Local 302 as an entry level apprentice. Looking forward to working on some bigger jobs running some bigger iron. I think I feel the need to make the statement that unions vary depending on location. Out here in WA, all state work is done by union contractors, the non-union boys can't even bid on it due to legislative measures regarding apprentice hiring. I think everyone here should think before speaking and bashing the unions, they might not be that great where you are, but it's a hell of a deal out here. We have one of the best training centers in the country and a fair amount of work for everyone. I just finished 8 weeks of FREE training that included a place to stay 4 nights a week and all my meals for the entire duration. I had the opportunity to run equipment I probably wouldn't get on otherwise; ran a D8, 6RXLII with a Topcon 3DXi GPS system, had the opportunity to run a Cat 140G blade (what a kick in the ass), bunch of new iron (Cat 924G, Kobelco SK210, Case 580M, Cat 416E, Deere 310J) and I have some experience on hydraulic cranes as well, even though I'm not going into hoisting. I haven't gone out to work yet, the weather here isn't helping and it's a slow year to boot, but once I get rolling I will be much better off. The healthcare and pension benefits blow away any non-union job by a long shot, the wages for apprentices isn't bad either. Just thought I'd share a little of union experience thus far.
Yea, but for those 2 days, don't you FEEL rich????
I am an owner operator, Been self employed for 26 years and also a member of local 302. That lets me to work as a union operator on a union job or work my equipment on a non union job. Dwan
Laborer here hopefully set off on my own soon...
I'm self employeed Non union. I could never understand why should I pay to work. Cascadescraper do you really think all of your training, hotel and meals are free. What are you Dues/ month? Your paying for your training. Do you really think your pension will be there when you retire? CAN WE SAY ENRON!! I have heard thru the grapevine that an operators union in MI had 50 million bucks a few years ago and now they have about 10 million. I have heard that the unions have been subsidizing companies that need work. The company bids cheap to get the job loses their but and the union bales them out. The union is dying. There are more people leaving then staying in the Union. why would I want to join a losing team.
Our dues are $25 a month, some of that goes to the international as well as our local hall. I've yet to see any non-union employer around here beat the $45/hr. total package that journeymen are recieving, let alone the $34/hr. package I will recieve my first day as an apprentice. I have 4 years of experience in this game and doubt I would see much over $20/hr in wages with zero benefits if I was to go get a job tomorrow working non-union. The dues we pay per month are so miniscule in the scheme of things it's not even funny. You would complain about $25 a month? You've got to be kidding me. That $25 I will spend a month in dues will more than pay for itself 10 times over in so many ways I can't even begin to start. My union is one of the fastest growing in the country, second only to New York and Alaska. Our apprenticeship program has tripled in size in 4 years. We're not dying here.
It's been awhile but aren't dues payed on a percentage of your gross income?
Not local 302 dues.
I'm sitting on the fence on this one but I've got a few questions. Exactly what union did Enrons employees belong to? If they didn't belong to a union wouldn't this be an argument to be in one? Which local in Michigan. I know several IUOE members in Michigan. Maybe I could get some information. Wouldn't surprise me though. I've got a 401K that is down about $50,000 from a couple years ago. Can you supply a link to a news paper article or a news broadcast about the unions bailing out companies. Where would all that money come from? Seems to me that this would be big news and hard to keep quiet. I need a little more info than just "The grapevine".
Lash, Im a member of 324. Those dollar figures, not sure if they are right. I know a lot has to do with investments too though. Right now 324 is in a legal battle over a building they invested a large some of money into. The ownership of the building went belly up, after falsely informing the investors about the building. As for Union dues. I can only speak for 324. Our dues are $25 a month. On top of that, you have a vacation check fund. This money is taken out of your weekly check. It is held until November every year. At this point in time, the union takes your Gross wages from the previous November until the current November. They take 2% of your gross wages out of your vacation fund. These are also considered dues. So it is not uncommon, depending on your year, for the union to take several thousands of dollars in dues. Im not sure about self employed dues other than the $25 a month. You can also pay for your health insurance if you are self employed or working in another industry. That is to the tune of $300 a month, plus or minus a few bucks. This cost covers your entire family minus your copays
I'm not sure, but I think the point PipeGuy was making was that Enron cheated investors out of millions, and unions frequently invest money from their pension funds in such vehicles. The moral of the story being, if you give your money to a union, they might lose it for you. (Just trying to clarify. I don't personally have a stake in this particular discussion.)
Hey Digger, I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything myself. I was just curious what the post was about. I guess since Enrons employees weren't union and lost their retirement, and unions may invest in such companies and lose money from the pension fund I'll just let social security take are of me.
I'm a member of 302 in Seattle, and dues are 25.50 plus 2% of gross.
Rollover has the most level veiw ,do whats best for your situation. However, after going through 6 operations for my daughter, the health benefits, no co-pay, cheap drugs and no late payouts, the Union dues were more than worth it.
I have a question for you Self Employed Union guys. What does it take to become self employed in the eyes of the Union? Im going to assume you have a LLC. I also am going to guess you have to pay your monthly dues, and if you want health insurance pay that portion of the dues also. Do you have to pay anything else? Im considering this option. Working for other contractors with equipment I rent, and I am wondering what it would take do do this on the union side of the trade.
Agreed 100% :drinkup
I too would like to know the self employed, owner operator deal with union members and what the steps for doing that are required. It would be nice to be finding my own work in the off season while still staying honorable in the eyes of my union. Self employment is a goal of mine, however I'd like to ween myself back into it slowly and this seems to be a good way of doing it.
I became a business first then joined the union. Business was 2 years old when I was offered a job for a co. that was union because of my equipment (bobcat & dump truck). I had to join to accept. Local 302 bylaws allow me to work any ware and anytime I want. I pay my dues a year in advance with no medical insurance. I gain benifits only when working union jobs. I am at the bottom of the lowest hire list because I don't actively look for union work. You need to check in to your local but I bet that if you owned a piece of equipment and was to become a legal business as a owner/operator you could work ether union jobs as an operator or non union jobs as a business owner. as far as a LLC I don't believe in hiding behind a name. I am responsible for my actions. (I know this is going to raise a few posts but should be covered in another thread.) Dwan
Digger you said my point well. Thank you. I don't have any proof of what I stated. I just see the bid tabs. I'm not union and when a union shop comes in and puts their number 20% below your cost there is something up. Either they are getting money from somewhere, or they will eventually go belly up. As for the investing of retirements and pensions, I have one question. Who is the one person that can spend your money the wisest? It should be you. I'm sorry I don't trust anyone with my money. If I was a union operator and my dues were going to pay some guys to go picket and blow up the inflatable rat. I would be mad as hell. How can you any union person be glad that they pay someone to go picket in front of a non union project. I think that there would be better uses for my dues if I were union.
I have seen more than one picketed contractor sign up with the union. I don't see how picketing would cost the union a lot of money. All building trades unions I know of have both a defined benefit pension, and an annuity(works like 401K) I know a lot of guys who have retired from the various trades and they get pension checks monthly in addition to their social security.
local 324 Detroit Mi. 24 years union. Haven't been laid off in 20 years since I figured it all out. Show up EVERY day, keep your mouth shut, help out your fellow workers, and do your job well!
NON SELFEMPLOYED ointhead:Banghead
Union Local 4 here
Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, Division 782 30 years
selfemployed for me
Self employed here, been thinking of joining the union but the only thing that burns my a** is some joker who cant stick his thumb up his but much less run more than one machine makes the same as someone who can run multiple machine very well!!!!
Union wages were like prevailing wages. The minimum rate of pay for a given piece of equipment. Doesn't say anything about the maximum pay.
Being a Brit, I am surprised that it is so split - I had thought in the US that a lot of folks were unionized.
The first mine I worked at was Union, and they wouldn't let me work in the shop in the winter time when some guys got laid off so I would be forced to clean the office. I have a sour taste about unions ever since.
Union Recently retired from Teamsters, 27 3/4 years of service. 51 years young. Thank You Local 282
Non union, Self employed owner of a trenching company that I started back in 1996. :usa
Self employed James
SELF:Banghead
Non union work for Granite northwest
Local 302, climbing up on 17,000 hrs. I worked non union for many years, then when the oportunity came, it was a win win situation for me. Benefits, retirement and steady work. The union has been good for me, however if I can't find union work, I will take work elsewhere, and not bat an eye. I will do what it takes to live.
You guys busy up there? A couple apprentices I know down here would love to make a run up there and work for a season or two. We can only work up there if all the apprentices in your area are out to work, only fair, but it would be an exeperience nonetheless. I'm happy where I'm at as long as the company I'm with keeps me busy, I like the crew I'm on and would like to stay where I'm at.
self employed all my union buddies are in the unenjoyment virtual reality line.the unions have lost all there pull in new york except for nyc and close nieghbors.
local 150. top of the food chain. we set the standard. united we stand, divided we fall.
The outfit I work for had 4 apprentices working and 3 just journeyed out a bit over a month ago. This job I am on now will shut down in winter and wrap up in spring. Southeast Union outfits are limited, there are many more in the interior of the state. We are all still working, however, layoffs for some are inevitable before the months end. I hope to work till snowfall on this job, but never count my chickens before they hatch:Banghead Time will tell.
I hear that. Hoping I make it until December or January. I know we have another big dig to do much like the one we're on right now next spring, hopefully it'll kick off in March. So, assuming I make it back out with the same crew I'm on, hopefully I'll only have 3-4 months of time off. You're right, it's inevitable, especially this year with the work being fairly scarce.
Great Thread! I've always skirted having to join a union and been paid union rates thanks to something called "prevailing wage rate". In that, union dues are deducted and i have no problem with that. The NYC operators union took a huge hit after 9/11 and are now run by the Feds from what I understand, up here in Buffalo they recently got taken over by the International operators union due to corruption issues simular to those in NYC. My opinion is obviously indifferent too a union, They have done nothing for me in over 20 years around asphalt milling machines except try to shut me out. On the other hand they have seen to it that prevailing wage rates up north are worthwhile.
Milling drum, you complain about unions, yet you admit that you enjoy getting paid prevailing wage (union wage + cost of benefit package) If you are getting paid prevailing rate then you're complaining with your mouth full.
Whats the complaint? More than half the time the union halls can't find mill operators, we are hard to come by. If I was being paid prevailing wages, why didn't the contractor just go to the hall and get a union operator? I'd tell ya the answer but since you thought that last comment was a complaint, you would flip out over the "full mouth" reply I'm sorry Buckethead feels I'm complaining. Its also entirely possible that some halls are good to their members while others don't do as much as they should or could. I wonder how These overall pro union people feel about the stats above showing the union membership on this server being the lowest of the three categories?
It does not matter because it's not really any of my concern whether anyone on this board has a union book or not. I am not here to organize or preach to anybody. I enjoy this forum because I can learn about equipment that I might not see around here. I just don't think we need to make personal attacks on each others character, that's all.
Not beating my head on any drum, but if it were not for unions, there would not be a "Prevailing wage". Unions fight for higher wages. Prevailing wage is Union wage in most circumstances, just without union benefits of which the non union employee is paid extra. I dont always agree with the unions, but if given a choice, I will work union first. Mill operators are more rare, however, it's not because it's super hard, its because there is alot less of it than other types of work, therefore, they are not needed all the time. We have a few mill hands on our crew and the reason the hall cant find any, is usually because those guys are already working.
Per capita, there are more union members on this site than union work exists in the field. It's not fiction that the unions are hurting these days compared to what they used to be. Only 13% of work performed now is union supplied labor, that's terrible. As you can see, we've beat the 13% here on this poll, so we're actually stronger here than we are in the field. Some of the union stuff is BS, but I'm still proud to be a member. There are some bad eggs in the union, too, but I think there are far less. Everybody on my crew works a lot harder than non union guys I've worked with in the past. I'm not bashing the non union guys, the union route isn't for everyone. But for me it's a pretty good deal, I get to do stuff I wouldn't be able to do if I was working non-union, get the benefits of one of the best training facilities in the country and some of the best operators to learn from while I'm out there.
That is the pot calling the kettle black. Bump
If people didn't like what they did or who they worked for they would do something about it. Can't we all just get along.
Doug you changed your story so many times you have no credibility with me.
Credibility w/ you is certainly not my concern or worry here. Once upon a time you asked a set of questions and I answered them.I do not expect or have a desire for you to understand what it is I said. I was presented w/ a situation to better my Family out of respect and I took it.Open mouthed,close minded people like you are what puts this Forum in danger of peoples' points of view being misconstrued.I work to live not live to work.I always have and always will do what is the best for my Family regardless of what fallout may come about. PS> Still no word from you on who you are with.
Doug, I will not name the company I am working for because I have been told they don't like employees blogging about them on the internet. They are a good contractor, I don't need them angry at me. You are free to work for whom you see fit it's none of my business, that's not the issue. It's just that you said you were working for a certain company, then when one of their people on here said he worked for them too, then you said, no it was the other company from down Jersey, then you said it was the original company.It seemed strange to me, that's all. Not many 385s in these parts either. I have only ever seen two around here. I don't think my response to Mr. Milling Drum was inappropriate, I was just objecting to what seemed like ad hominem attacks. I'm wondering if you two know each other? I am extra curious as to the timing of your return to these forums, as well. Maybe I will stay away from this forum for a while until things cool down, I'm not here to make enemies.
Well lets see, I found this server about two weeks ago doing a heavy equipment search at Yahoo. I have never messaged or talked to Diggin Doug fella in any way online or in person. It is entirely possible that my wording in the original post that Mr Buckethead objected too was harsh. But it remains a fact what I have stated here to be true. Sharky states the milling issue exactly right, mill operators are rare, its not because its real hard but usually because the "good" overall operators are taken already elsewhere. Credibilty online is something difficult to obtain in a personal sense, running a business online is one thing, posting comments as an individual is another. WE ALL need to try to keep this thread alive and spare the bickering, although I may have triggered it initially, I do not wish to loose my space here at the forum but I reserve the right to state an opinion. Since Mr Buckethead objects to my views, thats entirely his business, but now it reads like an accusation is being leveled about a conspiracy with the timing of the comments. So thats twice Mr Buckethead has had an issue involving my presence at this server. In a review of the issues, my opinion there is that Mr Buckethead my wish to consider easing up a little on ideology that may not be exactly what suits him. Once again I thank the operator and founders of this server, I enjoy the content here and hope we can all benefit from it.
1st year union apprentice here :usa
From the Forum Rules: Keep it civil, and discuss any disagreements like gentlemen, and there will be no problem. (Hint: If you wonder whether what you're posting is in violation of that rule, it probably is.)
used to work for family. quit in '98 got my own junk iron along with my own payments:drinkup:notworthy ointhead:Banghead now I work to make money not to 'help' the family.
This only applies to King county work which is public work which is cheap work.
I have a masonry business and a Local 138 book for my Lulls.
IBEW card-carrying member for ten years. Been working in management for Big Yellow for the past three years. Wouldn't stuff my ticket for any amount of money - it got me to where I am today. Best trained workforce one could ask for, in my opinion.
non-union self employed for 6 years
I've belonged to various unions and also worked as a self employed person for many years. Based on my experiences, life usually is easier and more profitable when working in a union situation. Self employed people live with lots of uncertainty and constantly take risks. But I like the freedom that comes with working for one's self. IMO, unions have their pros and cons. Without unions, some employers will always take advantage of their employees. To see how badly off workers were without group bargaining power, just look at the situation before unions became common more than one hundred years ago. Too many employers squeezed the workers as hard as they could. On the other hand, unions sometimes become too powerful and destroy companies and workers' jobs. An example today might be the union that represents the Big Three. And unions often protect unscrupulous workers from facing the consequences of their laziness or incompetence. Too many workers take advantage of union contracts and the protection they give.
Self-Employed :usa:usa:usaSelf-Employed fixing to lay myself off cause I can't stand my boss! He's been on the edge about the economy. LOL:Banghead ointhead grossed $180g 1-08 to 06-08 grossed $15g 07-08 to 12-08 Spent $35g on repairs undercarriage and normal maintenance $38g travel trailer other debts and notes $4500 month. General liability, vehichle, home etc etc tax ins and don't even want to know $$$$$$$$$$$$$$fuel which I paid 4.90 in july heading home from TX to OK. worked kinda steady up until sept when everything along with fuel went to **** NOW I can't get enough work to pay interest. won't be able to pay on 2 Pkup paymets come jan or feb.one GMAC and the other Dodge (chrystler) then all I've been hearing is bailing out the same SOB's that will ruin my credit. When people are out of work they stop spending so hows 50 billion going to help them if we can't work??? While Working in TX I met A couple of guys from W Virginia who were dozer operators on a pipeline project running New D6T's they were Union drawing $33.00 an hr. ($70TT ins med) I have a 2005 850CII JD(185hp) drawing $85.00 Should of sold and went to work there. Sorry all bout getting on my soapbox. Went to typing next thing yea know I'm complaining LOL Merry X-MAS All. :usa:usa
Started out non-union for a rather large company in Idaho. Quit them and bought a log skidder with a buddy.:Banghead Joined the operators 6 years ago with the company Im with now. I worked for two other companies one year in California, when they couldnt seem to land a bid. Went home, helped my best friend build a logging road for the summer (what great medicine!):drinkup Called my old supe from the first company, and have been back over two years now. Ive since transferd to Local 302 from 370, and have been made a foreman. If I want time off I would have to quit! Im gonna stick Union with the company Im with as long as I can. Im Union for the simple fact that I refuse to make someone else rich, while killing myself. I have worked my ass off to get where Im at. I know alot of people at home in Idaho who work non-union and dont have spit to show for it. They give me a hard time for paying dues to work. I always ask them to compare check stubs and benifits, then they change their minds! My best friend (who was an exemption to working for someone else to make them rich) is now out of buiseness and wants to come to come to work for us. I would hire him in a heart beat, but his wife is a little botherd about him hitting the road. So hes working for a logging outfit just barely getting by, but he loves it! The only way I would ever work non-union again would be for myself, most likely logging! Jason
I still can't believe the numbers on the poll. In the deep south (where I am) operators unions exist for limited equipments/contracting. Mostly cranes and dirtmovers. Even with all the non union operators, and because of difference in how public/private contracts specify UNION ONLY are divided in the northern states, the union numbers should be much higher. All The northern states pay prevailing wage to operators anyways so, being in or out of a union is moot.
many contractors blantantly cheat on wage laws on Long Island on many trades. Suffolk County DA is being tough so it may be decreasing a little. If you are going to have a law please enforce it so honest people don't have their hands tied.
PW only applies to government funded jobs, such as public works and roads. Most of the time site work on non union scale pays whatever deal you cut with the company, with the occasional exception. I worked on one home depot where I was paid prevailing wages. This was because the local township offered home depot a building pad as incentive for them to locate in their township. All the parking lot and underground site work was non pw.
You guys make a few good points. My wording was entirely to generalized to myself and the occupational version pertaining to me. Down south the deal with alot of these "right to work" outfits results in operators constantly out to backstab, lie, steal, they make each others existance at work difficult. Five guys stand around while one works. (not everywhere but in many places I've seen and worked, thats how it is). In order to stay away from racial issues its fair to say that all those companies in the south heavily rely on immigrant (legal or not) workers for operators. The biggest problem I see is that the states fail to make that "union only" specification in the contracts. Of course we won't mention the fact that the asphalt overlay contracts I'm reffering to really aren't that much different in dollars and cents less then they are up north. Therefore, the contractors in the south make a killing. There are offsetting operating cost's as far as materials but their profit margins are alot higher in part to not having to pay operators ANY type of prevailing wage. Prevailing wage in Florida to operate an asphalt mill is around $9 an hour. In New York state its over $30 an hour. As much as the comparison in living costs/standards is there, it does not equal out to fair at all. Not to mention the working environment. But please do not feel I'm trying to be harsh, PLENTY of the same unfair work practices I saw down south, happened up north as well. Pretty all the work an asphalt mill does is public contract work as a sub for a paving company. As stated a few times earlier, I have no complaint against unions, I appreciate they guarantee a decent wage up north. The poll should still favor the numbers of union workers across the USA in my opinion.
Milling drum, i have heard a lot of what you say about the south. I have an uncle working in La right now in a refinery. Hes a carpenter. He works 60+ hours a week, most of the locals work 38-40 hours a week. When he asks them why they dont work more, their response is we cant make it on less than 38-40, so as long as we get that, why would we work more? Ive kind of seen that in the pac NW when i worked out there this spring. I was always going to fast, getting too much done, working too hard. Might be a reason why things ended up going the way they did with that company. Seeing things like this lead me to believe if you could get a partner in the south or northwest that is a local, and is known to be so. You could bring a crew of us yankees in to kick some ass and make some fast cash
I thought FL dumped PW few years back? Not sure what you mean but why would any company have 5 guys standing around?
i have ZERO problems with a group of people banding together to negotiate better wages/benefits...BUT, i think it a crock when i am told how i have to run my business. if i want to be non union, i should be able to. don't like my wages, benefits?, by all means....go on to greener pastures. that's America, isn't it? you should be able to strike all you want, whatever...but you should not be able to stop the lawful operations of my business.
That prevailing wage list is availible in ALL states. It's moreless a rough occupational guide for insurance claims or something. The actual rates these contractors down here pay are more around $12 to $15 an hour. The way I was brought into asphalt milling in the 80's was that EVERYONE on the jobsite keeps working until EVERYTHING is done. End of the day theres about 2 hours work left to do on the equipment. On plenty of jobsites (both north and south) while I'm changing teeth and washing the machine down the rest of them stand around and talk ****. Its a disease. Then those same people standing around will go to the supervisors and blow me in for anything they can think of to make me look bad because they cannot stand the fact someone isn't like them which is moreless them scared I might be seen as an asset to the company. In the end they always win by endless complaints about me to the chiefs who get sick of hearing about it. I've lasted for a few years at the better companys with old school milling supt's around but, the newbies can't stand it. The union operators I've been around were generally a little bit more on the ball, they always had the same complaint though.
Dude man, come on down here to FL, in a matter of two weeks I could show you how to operate a mill so we could break it off in EVERY other milling company down here. (theres lots of mills in FL.) hahahahaha
milling drum, who do you work for in Fla. if you don't mind me asking? I know what you mean about the work force, makes it hard on ya to earn a livin in alot of instances.
I'll list names, if I go back with time its much to time consuming to type. Oldest to recent. Mill-it Corp/Delta Milling/East Coast Milling/Polings Milling/H&R Paving/AMS/Better Roads/Mid Atlantic Milling. Out of that list, over the years I met one person who completely got along with me and we did record breaking square yard numbers for Hubbard Construction in Jacksonville 2002. Mill-it are outright the finest milling company down here but felt a Class A CDL operator was only worth $8 an hour. You would laugh for days if I told you stories about the others. But getting back to the union issue, I am of the opinion that the south shoulf have a set prevailing wage like the north which is alot more than the hourly rates I stated above. I also spent a few years working in Atlanta for a reputable company called The Miller Group. Its possible if you are in asphalt in GA that we may have been on the same sites at some point.
non union here. and in my county PW is $44.XX/hr to be on any excavator 3 yards and under
Union here and I would prefer not to be. Cannot remember which union, Iam only reminded when they get a cut of my wage's. Union's protect lazy people. Non-Union is the best way to get rid of deadwood when it come's to lay off's etc. Instead the company layed off some of the best people we have because of seniority and left the good old boy's, They dont really work like the younger guy's because they think they dont have too! And they are right, They dont have to because the company have there hand's tied because of the Union. What a load of cobbler's If you turn up, On time, Do your Job you have no reason to be in a Union. Simple as that. Gun me down if you like but ive spent time with the union and without.
Milling drum, haven't been in the asphalt biz but i do know of Miller. From what I have seen they do a good job. A couple of parking lots they did down were i am and work on 75 and other highways around Atlanta. Have you heard of Turtle Milling, i think thats the name? They do a fair amount up this way. Sorry I'll quit the hi-jack.
This is Spoken like the Gospel. I agree 100% This is why I quit working Union.
i resent being called lazy. prove i am lazy.
Well I never called anybody lazy. Have my comment's struck a nerve with you? Maybe a Guilty gulp when your read my post? If not then Barking up the wrong tree TBH
I have worked in construction, and have had a union book for 21 years and I have not heard of "seniority", in construction.
As much as I have posted here concerning workforce issues, non union or union, the laborers I saw working the pipe jobs in NYC area are anything but lazy. Its fair to say that we cannot generalize about these issues but that there is a problem in America with people trying to get to much for nothing.... Dang Woodee, Turtle are from mid south FL, Tampa area. They really have no business being up there with all those other companies from around there. PP&S/Miller/Villager/CW Mathews/Douglas asphalt corp/APAC. Those halfwits I was working for outta Birmingham were trying to get into Atlanta and if Turtle from as far south as they are, and Villager from upper NY state are there already....they aint got a chance! I love it.
Yeah well I was stating my Union and not all Union's. I dont work Construction. Seniority Dictate's everything here. For example: 1' Layoff's. 2' OT entitlement's. 3' Holiday's (Vacation) 4' Positions and role's within the particular trade/skill. 5' Senior guy's can take the Job of a less senior guy's if so desire's. <~ what a Crock. And who called Union workers lazy? The Union protects the Lazy guy (No lazy Guys work in construction?) You cannot just sack a union worker! You have to do write-up's the more write-ups and then maybe a few suspension's. From what ive seen you basically have to kill somebody or be involved in a gross miss-conduct case before you are down the road.
:jerry opcorn
hey, i just got back after being suspended so i don't wanna start a war but i hate when people paint with a broad brush. i am on the out of work list at the hall but i am plowing snow and doing some welding to cover bases. i have also been upgrading my skills at our training site and keeping sheet running at the family farm. i hate being called lazy. although i doubt if i work as hard as r.o.p. he is an aminal.
I don't know bout being an animal I'm just one of the strange ones who really enjoys working. And when you are like me in that I have no life, what else is there? Work.:scool
This isn't a lazy issue anyways, its about those who do and those who don't. Unfortunately for us all unions get stuck out over the lazy issues because they are the ones taking the lead role in construction therefore they have an assigned role. When one bad apple shows up, people generally feel that its ALL unions who are like that and thats simply not the case. Our personal opinions will sometimes collide and we must remember it isn't the same everywhere when it comes to work environments, especially construction.
Well I know how hard time's can get .. Yes Sir. I was not calling anybody lazy (<~ for the last time) But in reality ... Lazy people do work in Unionized enviroment's. Guess you are a guy who has given money to the union for year's?
Agreed 100%
If you ARE working in any kind of environment, then are you truly lazy? I consider myself very lazy. But you know what? I never-ever miss a day. And your problem with people who choose to pay dues is what? I've paid dues for 23 years...guess that makes me REAL lazy.:waving Listen... You obviously have a huge problem being a union member? Yet you don't remember which union? Hmmm... Starting to sound like a load of BS to me. That wasnt very nice of me...sorry. Regardless, how much of your wages do they take from you? Is it a cut of the gross, net, before or after taxes? How much do they really take $? And why do you stay and let this union (the one you cant remember) take your money? Be a man, quit your sniveling and go find yourself a well paying non-union job that will accept your BS stories. Chances are that them good ol' boys back at the whine factory are just as tired of you and your BS as you are of them.
MM Took you two post's to think all that up. I do know the Union am just not gonna divulge. They take $68 every month. The first month was $380 if i remember righly because they took it twice. What a carry on I had with all that. I dont care what you think TBH. If you didnt like my comment's then why bother replying. I have no choice in the Union matter. Manadatory Iam affraid. Come on then .. How much do you pay? Or .. How much Have you paid? Alot of Union Guy's out of work eh. Took a few post's for you to figure that out? EDIT: I dont have a problem with guy's who pay there due's? Where did you get that from? Another guy who Nod's without knowing it?
Because...its fun.:falldownlaugh Sure you do. The reason you haven't done anything about it.... You said it. Dues...I've paid allot. How much? I don't know. I pay my dues once a year . And yes, there are allot of union guys out of work. 700+ in Redlands, 500+ in the Palm Desert IUOE Local #12 hall. When earlier you said: Embarrassed, ashamed, or do you have a problem with not telling the truth? I know....I'm kinda slow :beatsme But your spelling.....:throwup It's late. I gotta get up and be lazy in the morning. And I'm done with you. :ban Hope you find a good job....one where you can be happy at. Merry Christmas.
Pretty much sum's you up that post. Taking word's from a post and twisting them up and taking them out of context. Just my way of saying .... Doesnt matter the Union. Quiting the Union mean's quiting my job. All that aside I love my job. Iam under no threat from anything, It just get's my back up to see good, Honest hard working people fall through the crack's that's all. Well I havent resorted to name calling or anything yet. Just a friendly debate to me, I can tell you are Union 100% and Iam not. We are still Union Brother's ... Brother
I've just been sitting on the sideline reading this but don't understand. Why would you be union if you didn't want to be? By your posts I always thought you worked in a mine so maybe your a United Mineworker? I mean no disrespect but why all the secrecy. Also don't unions take money out of every check? So you would be reminded every payday no? Your posts just don't add up. You keep talking about how lazy people work for unions but what about someone to lazy to get off his ass and go find a nonunion job if he can't stand unions. Your being hypocritical. IMHO.
I do work in a mine. Very big one. The union due's come every month but i get paid bi - weekly. Union is Mandatory = No way to not be in one working here. I work in the mine because i simply like Mining equipment. The money is average for the area. Like I said, Seniority is my Beef. And that is through the collective aggrement. I accept the Union. You cannot have your cake and eat it. I dont worry, I have time in, Work hard, Turn up on-time, Bite my lip when the boss is having a bad day. Seem's like My opinion has been meet with alot of resistance but Iam not the only one who think's this. How am I being Hypocritical? I Never said Union worker are Lazy (<~ for the very very last time) But the union offer's protection for the 1 or 2 people who are.
From here, it takes exactly two clicks of the mouse to lock a thread. You boys play nice. :cool2
Hey Digger if these guy's dont like my opinion then thats there problem. Just a friendly debate between a few guy's .... Iam not the only one who has these opinion's and i think it would be fair for other member's to have a say. They want the truth then they have to eat it up mate.
If she's getting to out of hand for you then lock it up!
This thread has been under close observation from post #1, because we all know that the union/non-union question is one that has a high potential for conflict to arise. That's understandable, because it's an issue that people on each side can have strong feelings about, and there's nothing wrong with that. Forum rules say: "Personal attacks of any kind on other members will not be tolerated. While disagreements will arise, they must be handled in a mature manner ." I can just see the discussion tap dancing along the edge of that rule, so I thought I'd remind everyone of it. It's one of those "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" things they teach in forum moderator school...
I have had a union shop since 1978 when I started in at 26 years old. Being union has never protected a lazy person who did not work to the best of their ability. I have had up to 85 employees at one time and up to 425 during one year. I just treat them as I would expect to be treated and 99.9% of the time it has worked fine on both sides of the fence. Have I run into corruption in unions? Yes but I never played that game and when you cave you are part of the problem. When working on a PW job it would cost me about 8-10 per hour more if I had to pay the bennies in the envelop and subject it to all the labor burden cost. The only way around that is to cheat or get an federally approved plan like Benneco. Then I would only be stuck with the problem of finding a workforce on short notice and qualified people. There does need to be a reasonable balance on both sides for either to succeed long term. Please guys try not to get this locked.
i am a local 150 operator, have been for 15 years. i have seen lazy hands ran off countless times. the contractor is paying top dollar and they expect top hands. we are told that the b.s. stops when the bucket drops. our apprentices are much sought after and most of our 3rd year guys can operate circles around "operators" i have seen in my travels.
r.o.p and lash, come to chicago, there is always room for a good, proud hand. btw, 100$ a quarter and 3% working dues. it's worth every penny in my humble opinion, and i haven't worked in 6 weeks.
From reading this thread, I think it's safe to say that different unions operate in different ways when it comes to a member's performance. I doubt Haul-Pak is making up anything that he's posted, it's probably how his union operates just as I'm sure that those of you who disagree with him are being truthful as well. I probably posted my experiences here somewhere in the thread, but I'll restate them again. I was a Teamster for 20 years. Before I got on a regular seniority list I floated out of the Hall. I learned that the guys who hung out at the Hall on weekends washing the delegate's cars and cleaning their offices were the guys who got work, it wasn't "Seniority Rules" as I had been informed. I knew of one guy who had 2 union jobs while I sat home not working. I lived an hour and a half from the Hall and would work Saturdays so I didn't do any housework. I sat home most of the week waiting for the phone to ring. I floated around different construction companies, a week here, a week or two there getting laid off as jobs finished up. Almost every time I'd have someone talk to me about "leaving some work for tomorrow". I never ran my ass off, I worked at a steady pace. My Dad had always drilled into my head growing up "If a job isn't worth doing right, it's not worth doing at all" and I worked with this in mind. On one job we were moving shot rock and a rock had fallen off a truck in the roadway we were using. Rather than run it over and risk cutting a tire, I got out and moved it. It wasn't a huge rock, about 12" in diameter. Well the Shop Steward saw me and I got reprimanded for not calling a laborer to move the rock. Seemed just a little ridiculous to me. I caught a gig with a plumbing supply house making deliveries. The third day into this job I was sent out on Long Island in a Ford Econoline box truck with about ten stops. I had no clue of where I was going but I had one of those Hagstrom map magazines. I got lost to the tune of about 2 hours and did 8 of the 10 stops. When I got back to the warehouse I was met by the Shop Steward who looked in the truck and saw I only had 2 stops left. He wasn't happy, I didn't mention being lost to anyone. While I thought I had failed to empty the truck, the Shop Steward was unhappy I hadn't brought back half the load. "Always leave work for tomorrow". The warehouse manager came to me, gave me my check and told me how he'd love to keep me working, but he was being forced to lay me off. Apparently the Shop Steward saw to that. I earned a permanent spot at a grocery chain making deliveries to stores and backhauls from other warehouses. The work environment there was nothing like I had ever experienced before. It was labor vs. management everywhere you turned, like a rivalry. We never seemed to be working together, like we were working for competing companies rather than the same one. When I first started I worked anyplace there was a day's work, perishables dock, grocery dock, or I'd take any run that came my way. I wasn't kissing anyone's ass, I just needed work and wasn't too proud to do any job that came my way. In every instance, at least half the guys were not carrying their weight, taking breaks wherever and whenever they pleased. I think it's a safe estimate to say they were producing about half of what they were capable of simply by the amount of time they stood around doing nothing. Again, I don't kiss ass, but I do understand that a company needs to be profitable in order to remain in business, and I was counting on this company to provide me a job to continue buying groceries and pay my mortgage, so I worked to that end. There were guys who would do their best to "shake up the load" on the way to the store, either so it would take longer to unload or because they had a beef with the store manager. I realized that the only chance at revenue the company had was a customer ringing up a purchase at the cash register and made sure the products reached the store safely. I'd get chastised by my fellow Teamsters. "Screw the company" (well it was worded slightly differently) was the Teamster motto in my shop. I just didn't get that. The only time I ever saw anyone get fired from the job was if they stole from the company, and believe me there was a lot of that going on. It was common knowledge that one driver was stealing boxes of meat and had his own side business running supplying restaurants with meat. After about 15 years of this he got caught and fired. Other than that, no one had to account for their performance level or safety record. We had guys who would have at fault accidents monthly and they couldn't be touched. I trained a guy who had no business being behind the wheel of a car let alone a tractor trailer, yet he was hired. Nepotism was rampant at this job. I was passed in seniority by sons of the shop steward and other drivers. I complained about it, nothing was done. I complained to my delegate, nothing was done. Went to the union President, nothing was done. If anything, I worked even less after my complaints. All the while, I was paying monthly dues, "administration fees" and "political action" fees, which totaled about $125 a month. Our benefit package was of nearly no value to me, everything was negotiated by the Union, and arrangements were made with local doctors (1 1/2 hours away from me) to accept the union payment. This was back in the early 80s long before managed health care became common. I learned from the guys who took advantage of this policy that the doctors involved had two levels of care for patients, those who had regular insurance and those who had the teamster policy which was at a much lower standard. After working for this company for 20 years, they began having financial problems. They went to the union and told them they were going to cease the distribution end of the business which meant permanent lay off for about 1500 men. There were private negotiation between the company and the union, apparently some kind of arrangement was made. We tried picketing the stores urging the customers to support us with no support at all from the union. We never saw a delegate, all organization of pickets were made by us the workers, we even made our own signs. No support from the Hall. When we did get laid off, the union offered retraining. They had about 250 slots of re-education available for 1500 men. The best prospects went to the sons of the shop stewards and then sons of the other drivers and I was left with the opportunity to learn pest control. Not interested. They told us how bad things were at the hall, about 25% of the members were out of work and basically told us not to expect any jobs from the hall. Oh, but it's not OK to get a non-union job either. I walked away from that training session and never called the hall again, that was in 1997. I can identify with much of what Haul-Pak has said here. The son of the president of my local became a delegate having never driven a truck. I read that my local president has gone to prison on corruption of union funds of some sort about 5 years ago, his son moved up to fill his position. My coworkers were not held accountable for the work they did or didn't do, and after 20 years of dues and other fees, I was abandoned by the union when I was laid off. It has left a very sour taste in my mouth for unions in general. I couldn't walk away from the job I had, I had too many obligations to my family. I also worked in an environment I wasn't comfortable with, I think a lot of people do to feed and house their families. I've read where many of you are happy with your union jobs and that's great, just try to understand that apparently not all unions work in the same manner, and by the same token, those of us with bad experiences should not assume that all unions are bad. Feel free to discuss the differences, but avoid personal call outs and accusations. thanks!
steve, i am sorry that you had such a bad experience with the teamsters. truth be told it is kinda still like that for drivers. it's too bad i can't get you into chicago so i could show you how things are supposed to be
Thanks for the "reality check" Steve. It's easy for someone like myself who doesnt get out much to assume that everything everywhere is just like it is in my back yard. Obviously, thats not the case. Ive seen the bosses lop-eared son get my job om many occasions. I sat at home working only 1-2 days a week. After about 3 weeks of that, I went in to Granite Construction Companys office here in Indio and collected my final check. I also told the super at the time that If thats the way you treat qualified operators, ones like me who always give 110%, who always show up early, stay late and try to make their employer shine, you can kiss my ass. You'll never see me around here again. Sure, I was pissed and I realized that membership does indeed have its privileges. That was the one and only time I ever quit a job. I've never taken a dispatch for GCCO since then. I've worked rental for them but never directly for them. All of this went on back in 1990-91 after Granite had purchased Tarmac. One thing that I don't have going for me is that I have no relatives or family in the construction business. Which is just as well. I earn my way unlike many that I've worked with. In writing this, I'm thinking to myself that maybe thats one of the reasons that I work 10-15 hrs a day, 6-7 days a week now. It keeps me too busy to think about how hard and unfair life can be for both union and non-union workers who don't seem to fit into a company click. One lesson that I've learned is to always look out for #1. Regardless of what union rules are or have been, I've always got another job lined up... just in case. A day off = a day to go look for work. Every company I've worked for knows that. If that value a good hand, they'll find work for me. Ok folks... I've rambled on long enough. I need to get to the shop and take the RattleStar and the tanker to Seal Beach to suck up some mud. But before I get out of here, I'd like to apologize to Haul-Pak. I don't ever mean to come across like an ass. It sometimes slips out without me catching it. I do hope things look up for you at your job. And I'm sure they will. Sometimes, things have a way of just working out. Peace....
Wow, Our server leader has lived it like many have. Thanks Steve. Those are words of encouragement to those who get the treatment from the unions the same way you have like myself. After its gone on so long, as a worker, you start to wonder whats wrong. We need to focus on the future a little here. The incomming Government has promised plenty of Public Works contracts. That will mean all workers on such projects will have plenty of work all around. Operators will be in short supply when this comes to fruitation, the union halls should be empty. How a hall is managed should be watched by the members. The quality of new membership directly affects us all. If we are to look closely at the comments in this thread we can see the folks offended on both ends get the raw end of the stick and it makes them mad. This needs to be rectified to a point because nothing will ever be as perfect as we would like. I'd love to continue to debate issues but it seems like a few nerves get raw when certain aspects are brought out into the open. Thankfully Steve has shared his experiences, I have shared mine and been cut down over it. This by no means makes either side right. Its just how it is. But it can be improved upon.
Pete, you have no idea how stunned I was when I first learned you were a union man probably about 6 months after you joined here. I've followed your stories of the jobs you've been on and how you've solved problems yourself and essentially are a jack of all trades (I mean that with great respect) much as I am on my jobs. What you do would never be permitted at union jobs in this area. No one works outside their job description no matter how simple a job might be. A construction job will have Teamsters, Operating Engineers, Laborers, Oilers and Mechanics. Don't think about crossing the line into another trade's job description. milling drum, I agree with you. If blue collar workers in this country are to remain competitive with the rest of the world (like it or not we're in a global economy) the work ethic among all workers, union or otherwise is going to have to improve. One thing I've learned from these forums is things can be much different in another area than they are here where I am, it doesn't necessarily make one or the other right or wrong.
Steve, I'm just glad to read of your experiences being almost like mine have been. I do not disagree with unions at all. I do have a problem with the division of work on jobs thats enforced on union sites but theres usually reasons for that. Again, Thank you for sharing and....this is a GREAT website!!!! You and your admin do an excellent job.
Union Mechanic / Service-Shop Manager good pay & bennys. steady hours.
Well After Reading the post's and reviewing my own I have to Apologize to R.O.P and QBall for some of my comment's on this matter. They may Seem disrespectful but this isn't the way I originally wanted them to be. If I offended anybody then I Apologize. I was just a little upset at some recent event's and may have used to much Venom in my original post. Some of my Comment's may have given people the wrong Idea, I assure you guy's I wasnt calling anybody lazy, People pay there Due's like me and that's the way it is. Like people have said, Every place is different and every Union is different, The particular Uni Organization here can let people down but I never stated this to be common ground. Also thank's goes out to other member's for reviewing all side's and replying with Honest Post's. I assure you I Have Integrity in the field and on this matter. I thank my lucky star's for what I have, Let's hope people (Union or not) Can get back to work soon.
PEACE! union or non, it doesn't matter when nobodys working.
union im non union. i have all the benefits i need as does my family, i get paid very well and have been working steady for the past 10 years at the same company. oh and i live better too.
super, i am glad.
A union is only as good as its members. Whoever said the union was a glorified temp position is absolutely right and I wouldn't work any other way!!! Where else can you tell the boss to stick it, and go out to a different job next day with same pay same bennis?:usa
I would like to see you tell a boss to stick it today. Tell me how the job placement goes tomorrow. I know our out of work list is over 400 people as we speak.
Over 700 in Redlands and 500 in Indio
It would seem like the equipment operators unions are losing power in certain areas. In upper western NY state, Rochester, theres a huge Construction company called Villager. They hire operators based on Prevailing wage rates, not union membership. An hour and half away in Buffalo, NY. That entire town is locked up on union only operators. BUT, when Villager came to Buffalo to work, no union engineer shows up to check for books or membership, however you cannot get a job with a Buffalo company and be without a Book. Last summer the usual fan of corruption charges removed the powers that be from that branch and the international brotherhood took over, membership now is a simple test, 2 different classifications and 2 different tests. Easy to get a book now. It remains pretty stupid for one district to be one way about it and another to be completely different. They need to get their act together. As for telling the boss to shove it, that usually catches up with ya and they will sit your ass down till you get it right on THEIR terms....I know its not like that everywhere but I've seen it done plenty.
Local 803 Cement Masons
150 used to be good now we have to mannnny cr_ _ks that will be going on a long vacation soon
I am union, and self employed since 1989.
Cant speak for other operating engineer's .. Outta 793 I got dispatched through the hall ..how it all works is im employed by the operating engineer's .... the guy that owns the equipment is merely a ride im asigned to, a client ..at the end of the day im technicly laid off unless im requested by that client to attend the next day..and so on .. With that it is arguable in labour court that I am infact self employed..my employment is only attainable by my standard of service to both the hall the client... Its not as simple as being union ..your last job still dictate's wether you will get another ..
Future Local 18 Operator, if all goes to plan.
still a 150 lever puller
Tag say it all... I can't say enough good stuff about being an OE. Maybe I'm biased, being one of the bigger locals in the country, in the area that is pro-union. I can say it helps when your local works for you, and you and your brothers work for your local. I've been in 3 different maritime unions, and all have BIG stroke out on either coasts. But in the Great Lakes...pretty shabby. And frustrating as hell. Pensions are not even close to what I will be pulling as an operator. Insurance bennies are not even in the same league. Just glad I have a chance to be part of a Union that I can use my shipside skills and also learn the landside skills to make my self more employable in either a land or sea construction project. We have one of the nicest, most modern traing sites in North America, and every time I go there makes me proud to say "We built that." I know every tradesman love to point out his work ....there a dozen streets and parking lots my kids just love to hear me exclaim "Daddy built that..."
IUOE local 66. Been in sevarl unions over the years, USWA 1968-1974,CPWU 1975-1981, USWA Heavy & Hi-way1992-1997, Teamsters2006, IUOE 2006 till I cann't get in the seat! Lot of prevailin wage when I was not in a union, and some not so prevailin, a man gotta eat. IUOE, should've done it 40 year ago.:usa
I am self employed and have not been a union member in many years, I am not particularly pro or anti union but it has to be remembered why unions where formed in the first place. It was not because employers where treating their workers well.
I joined Local 3 in 1957 and have been paying dues ever since. Local 3 is north of RollOver Pete's Local 12. In all those years I was dispatched out of the hall 1 time. Then and maybe now a hand could rustle his own job as long as he had an A card. In 1957 union cat skinners were making $3.33 per hour. As a non union skinner I was making $15.00 a day for 10 or more hours and I went from a slide bar RD8 to a 14A. Years later a company sent me to Virginia on a project and that is when I found out what a super union Local 3 really is. Maybe some of the problem unions are out of control but remember all unions have elections.
I'm self employed. Never in a union. One shop I worked at was considering bringing in a union and the owner said we could but that he would sell the company after that and we wouldn't know who we would be working for. The owner was/is a really fair and stand up kind of gentleman. He has employees that have been with him for over 35 years and many that have been retired with benefits and pensions. I guess it all depends on the relationships built between owners and employees.
self employed , but started as a union employee so I have the rare option of seeing both sides
member local 793 toronto canada .I've been a member 30 years ,with unions you have rights, protection and securites, with wages overtime and pensions.
. Non Union And Self Employed. Don't need someone else telling me how to run my business much less some suit and tie lazy big head sitting in an office taking money out of my pocket every month so I can work. Let them go find a real job on there own, and work for a living instead of living off of the sweat of others who do all of the real work ! ! ! .
Bumpus,I hope you edit your post as it will only stir "Stuff" and from what I have read the union / non union battle is frowned on
. I see a lot of people share there opinion of why they are Union, and I am only stating why I am not Union. I have worked both sides of the fence. .
Yes sir ,You did state your opinion.So don't be surprised when a union man speaks up, LOUDLY. I'll never understand why some will say something on the internet that they wouldn't say standing in front of a real person.
This forum is neutral ground, kind of like Switzerland. Personal attacks like that on the other person's union or non-union status are considered bad form. As are personal attacks in general.
Well said Buckethead...learn it, live it, love it. :yup
it's all good. lol
I also was union local 701 in Chicago but have been non union for about 20 years now so I also saw both sides. The big plus for union was good pay and good benefits, health insurance, sick days, paid vacation, etc. non union = no insurance, no sick days, no paid vacation, pay not as good. The only plus was that I moved to gods country and live everyday where others go for vacation. There just are no union shops up here around me. But I am getting paid better than most mechanics around here @ $19.00 per hour.
Where you at in Wisconsin?
Hayward
I work with a few guys that live up in that neck of the woods.
I'm self employed I used toto wrk for a non union company we always got prevaling wage and insurance. And now I really love my job n bs politics and favortism nepatism and most of listing to someone is telling me to build something or do something I know is wrong and having to do it any way. And 99% of the time I only have to do things once
no problem Tiny...face to face any day i have an opinion of union's and sorry its not positive. i have delt with both and the non union employees i have i would love too see them get treated any better being union.. They put out and get rewarded for it. i have guys that have been working with and for me for over 10yrs (non union) and if u treat a guy with respect and fairly union is no ADVANTAGE
Well from my experience owners like you are not the norm.
I agree... I have a nonunion company, we pay prevailing wage and insurance and retirement. Wish I had been treated as well in the past working for non union. Truth is I have been in the Teamsters, Operating Engineers and Automotive Machinists. If I had to work for someone else I would want it to be a union company. But, I am 68 yrs old and am not looking for something else.
Family business/non-union
We are a member of Associated Builders and Contractors, Inc.
i take money in with one hand and give out twice as much with the other!
I tried the union thing out as an apprentice in the local here. I like bein on the big machinery but I just didn't get any work. I got sent to fill in for a call off once and sent on a week long pile driving job. The first company was total crap, had to fight with them for a month to get my money, got no help from the union; second company treated me fine, I got to run everything on the job, even the crane, but when it came to it, I wasn't getting enough work to pay the bills. It got to a point I couldn't keep making my hours at the training site and working a job to pay the bills so I had to leave. It didn't help that some moron operator had me cleaning grease off the bottom of his crane and then decided to go start running it. I almost got made to hamburger, told him to f off, told the union to f off and that's where I am with them. In hindsight, I shouldn't have done it that way, but I got angry. I would go back to a union job, but I wouldn't go out of my way to have one, I've had good non union jobs before and I don't really have a preference. I like the training opportunities you get as a not so experienced operator, and that's what they really have to offer. You can find the benefits and all from non union outfits too.
non-union working for dad.
I have never worked union, so I have nothing, either posotive, or negative to say about them. However, I started on a shovel (laborer) and worked my way up into the corporate office job!
Thats what you can do if you are not working for the union. :usa
Union till I die.
I work for my local county.We have to be a Teamster,It is not by choice.
CEO--Chief Excavating Officer of my small 1 horse residential,small commercial excavating biz---36 years now. My Dad was a loyal union man in Local 825 IUOE out of Jersey for years until 1 Sunday when he worked,he didn't get his double time as per contract,the boss tried giving him time and a half.He goes to his BA to complain,the corrupt BA tells my Dad to take the money and run--you should be glad you're working he tells him.Pissed,my Dad goes to the labor board,gets his money,but now is blacklisted and doesn't work steady for 5 years.The hall would give him a day or 2 a week just to screw up his unemployment benefits.35 years with them and no benefits,pension,nada. Fast forward to the early 80's,there's stupid money to be made at our 2 huge IBM plants so we partner up.He's a very forgiving person,he wants to go all union trades,I'm saying no to it but I gave in,he is my Dad after all.I get a book with Local 137 IUOE. So we had some real nice jobs,not too much union BS.Then in the late 80's,big work started drying up,IBM was hurting so we closed shop.So I go to my BA, ask him about any and all help as an owner-operator in the union.He completely blows me off-tells me his only obligation is to his men working out of the hall.I remind him I've been a dues paying member for about 9 years,wouldn't you want union representation in any form?Says I'm on my own.Left a real sour taste in my mouth.Now in my area there's hardly any union work at all,the big excavating companies by me have all folded,and the only union work is South,by and in NYC.
A lot of operators, both union and non, started that way.
I would think most of them did. Most of the ones I am around have.
Self employed and luvin it!
I cann't speak for other parts of the country but around here the iron workers and operators union do a lot of good. They alow companies to hire skilled workers in large forces very quickly. Now i'm not union and never have been but it seems that some on this thread have a bad tast for all unions because of a few bad ones. No company can aford to employ and train all the people to do large jobs like highway and major development work. Where else can you find a person well trained at a known price to do a job. In pa where not a right to work state so if you want to work somewhere that is union you don't have a choice. IMHO this is bs. If your union's got the goods you should have to compete in the market place. Being from the former steel making juggernat of the world I have seen the product of the bad union mentality. guys saying "screw the company they can afford it" or "I'm not working to make them rich and me dead". For those people that think that way just remember if you don't make "the man" money there's no reason to have you around. A paycheck is a compromise. you produce X amout and you get Y. don't make X you get no Y. I have respect for union tradesmen (and women) they provide a much needed sevice. As for the entrenched unions that cause nothing but greef and strain between labor and management are counterproductive. that crap i'v heard like "get someone else thats not my job" makes my blood boil. your here to work. Don't like it go somewhere else.
I have been non my whole life and have been self employed at times. I don't feel I'm above the union. Just never needed to join one. I will say if it wasn't for the unions I wouldn't be making the money or have the Benny's. They do drive the cost up and it effects the whole industry.
boy, that's a mouthful
I had to edit the picture, to comply with the forum rules on censored words.
This will be closed before long.:Banghead
Not if everybody sticks to forum policy and makes comments that are NEUTRAL in nature. A simple yes or no will suffice. A little further detail won't hurt, but if a post goes into any sort of editorializing one way or the other on the subject, then, yeah, that will be considered out of line. :cool2 It looks to me like the two posts above EGS' comment constitute what the NFL would call "offsetting penalties." Let's just move forward from here.
Sorry about the word in the picture!
Don't worry about it. But we do need to enforce the rules consistently, so I couldn't pretend I didn't see it.
Whew! This has been an exciting thread! The suspense, the angst, wondering if it was gonna get shut down, then the joy as peace broke out and everybody admitted that both sides have valid points, they should make a movie out of it. (SAG all the way of course.. I have been self-employed as well as working for non-union construction companies and a private college. I have considered joining a union because I have interest in both cranes and trains, and I do not know any way to work with either of those (other than short stints when a crane was hired or rented at a site I was on) with out being union. I have seen enough negatives with unions in my area to keep me away though. I worked for a construction company that did a bunch of local school remodels and new work for about 6 years (until we ran out of schools!) Since it was Gov. work we got PW, and a lot of the subs were Union. I got a lot of abuse from them, verbal assault, some minor physical, nasty pranks, basically being treated (and told to my face) like I didn't deserve to be on the same site as them, not because of my skill level (I was a decent Skytrak operator IMHO , but because I didn't have the right sticker on my bumper. My jobs have usually been the flexible, fill-in type, you know, whoever needs help the most, I am there, from operating to driving to wrenching to welding to sweeping and collecting trash. That has often put me working with said union workers when we were rushing to finish something on overtime or doubletime. I got told to slow down or take a break so many times it wasn't funny. I've gotten yelled at for making others look bad, I've had the parental types sit me down and explain how if we get too much work done today because I am working too hard, then the bosses expect that much tomorrow too, so we should keep their expectations low. This has been from a wide range of unions too, from drywallers to Steel to Sanitation. On the flip side, some of the best (insert field and job title) I have seen are Union, and I counted it a privilege to be able to work with, and learn from them. I have also gotten plenty of abuse from non-union workers, and in some cases I am sure I deserved it! My beef is when the abuse is based entirely on the union-vs-scab issue. Funny thing is, now that I think about it, some of the worst insults I have gotten were Union members working for the same non-union company as I was, complaining that I was a scab! (I had doubts they were in good standing with their unions based on the work I saw...) Interestingly enough, the one Unionized company I worked for is also the one that never paid me PW even though most of the work was for Caltrans! They needed a driver/operator/tooled-up mechanic, and couldn't afford all 3 through the hall, so hired me quietly. I knew they were billing out at full PW rates and only giving me ~1/3 of it, but they paid me what we had agreed to at the beginning, and it was the only way they could cover the overhead and keep us working. (they were also paying some of the Union guys less than scale just to keep them working) If they recover someday, well, I might have a little sit down with them.. One thing I would love is the Union training. I think it was Qball that had some videos up of the sand paving indoors in the winter time. I would pay money to be able to spend some time there! (if I had any...) I am learning paving now, but usually I am needed to haul material and can't play on the machine. It kinda sucks! If I decided I wanted to stay in this field I might join a union for the training if nothing else, but then they try to control what you do if they run out of work for you. (based on what I have heard from local members) Wait! Don't flame me yet! I see a lot of benefits to Unions, but I also see a lot of downsides. In my area most of the downsides I have seen were due to members that thought they were better than others. It reminds me a lot of religion and politics... So, if you are Union, good for you, hope you are happy, but please don't attack or ridicule those of us that for whatever reason are not. If you are non-union, good luck and thanks for all the fish! (oh, and don't bash people because they are Union!) I would like to thank Steve et al., for providing this site and keeping it aggressively neutral. It is quite a relief from many other sites and real life! Now you may ridicule me for anything else that I may deserve, just not for having a naked bumper! :drinkup Ben~
Yeah. And discussion of those two topics is outright prohibited/regulated here as well, and always has the staff standing by with fire extinguishers in hand. Go figure... :beatsme
IUOE Local 302 I don't know how I could be a crane operator without my union. Non-union in my region makes 30 less an hour with no benes
I know the union thing is sensitive here, but some of us work in strong union states and others don't. I say yes, if you don't, thats okay with me.
I see it a different way. I feel the unions keep wages fare, without them I think many trades would be paid less. As for the bennys, Im always surprised by carpenters and labor who have none. I support my brothers, but I also support my fellow operators the right to choose.
Wow can't believe so many of us are self employed!!!! I guess more than just me like the long hours and no pay! Hahaha
I'm union, Local 302 and haven't had a union job sense 1986. 30 years this year. I get a bill every 3 months for my dues. I also get an invention to the Christmas party. other then that I do not know they exist. If I relied on the union for anything I would be homeless, starving, sick with no medical, etc. I manage to find my own work, set my own wage, pay my own medical, schedule my own time off. Pay for my own education. save and invest for my retirement. I set my own rules and am responsible for my own actions. If I have a job related complaint I go to the man in charge not someone who says they represent me. What has the union done for me? Well they practice medicine without a license. Every 3 months they give me a walletpendectome. in other words they do surgery on my wallet to make it lighter. Why do I keep paying dues? I hope some day it will pay off.
I work in a union job, and have for been for 9 years. If you ask me if I'm a supporter of unions....guess I gotta say yes. Do I think we'd be better off without one, probably. It's simple you work an honest days work, you take home a pay cheque and as long as the works there you'll always have a job. Unions breed, whiners, complainers, and lazy slugs... and then protects them from getting fired. Is it right "HELL NO". 4years ago I was put on strike for 7 weeks, we didn't gain JACK!!!! and lost 7weeks pay that damn near sunk my family. And right now as we speak my "wonderful union" is in talks for a new contract which has expired Dec/31/11. And of course things aren't going well. So you may wonder why I stay? For where I live this is a good payin job, and a job I love to do. It's close to home which gives me time for my wife, my son & daughter, and enjoying life.........do I think unions are good???? I'll let you know as soon as I do.
Union local 340 IBEW
Got a question. Are the unions in canada different in structure then here in the states? Just wondering cause they sound the same.
Guess I've voted and posted in this thread before....so... Do I work union? Yep....IUOE Local 12. Have or will I cross a picket line?.....Never ever cross any union picket line. Do I scab?.... If that means that I work non union then I guess Yep. Have I ever received unemployment benefits? No.....because I always have work. Do I give a **** what y'all think? Nope. And here's why. Both union and non union members also happen to be some of the biggest hypocritics ever made. The union-non union argument/rivalry has been going on since the invention of the wheel loader. I won't ever knock anyone for trying to keep his family fed. I will ask them why they dont get off of their rear and take charge of their own destiny. Only a fool relies on someone else for their survival. That includes waiting to get cleared out from the hall or waiting for someone else to find you a job. As a man or head of household you do what you have to do and work. You provide and you earn. As a human, you do what can to help others both union and non union out. Union or non union, in these times it really doesn't matter. Taking care of # 1.....thats all that matters.
I am union and self employed I was in United Service Worker Local 355 for HVAC I kept my book open when I left there to go to my current job. Currently in Local 501 of the Utility Workers Union of America I work for my local water district. We cover 40,000 households in a 8 mile area. Gotta love suburban long island!! Now I run into a grey area I usually get side work doing boilers or central air because all the major oil outfits use union labor and charge $$$$ for a boiler install I'm talking like 7-8000 for a oil fired water boiler. I can come in and charge 5-5500 and still make a profit I split the profit with my partner he still works in the business so I guess he's scabbing a lil bit I tried to get in to IUOE but it's impossible in the NYC area so now I am content with what I do I have a good retirement and benefits package. The work environment is outstanding I work with a great group of guys. It sucks because with 5-7 years everyone will be packing it in that's a ton of experience walking out the door.
RollOver Pete, Well Said!!!! Very very well said. I'm in a union, but not a believer for the the most part. They put me on strike for 7 weeks(I didn't cross the picket line or SCAB) but I did work else where. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do
:exactly
ROP, I see in your sig. you are a local 12 member. I am a former local 12er myself. May I suggest that you change your avatar? I only ask because I've seen the series of photos and, while you chose a tasteful one, I still can picture that guy oozing out from under it when they hoist it off of him. Your choice obviously. I'm just requesting.
How many month/hours do equipment operators in the northeast general work per year?
770, we're not supposed to call each other names around here, just saying.
Work for myself, union non union if it breaks and they call me I will go out.
self fix and run them all or try to anyway
Well some differences this year. Operating engineers bent over backwards....never mind, they are short for mill operators this season and guess who shows up Anyways, the current operators seem happy to accommodate, very strange considering the "rules". Local 14 years ago still in the throes of 9/11 hiring blitz that most of the BA's are now in prison for showed me alot of respect too but, ONLY because of the type of equipment and ONLY because the hall is empty. Funny how that could work lately, I seriously doubt unemployment in America has really improved despite the media and the people who believe that rubbish. Buckethead, good to see you , I guess we are brothers now huh? LMFAO. Funny those comments above, I didn't come anywhere near saying that about the union when I came here and you were all over me like....*coughs* Should be a good year, election years usually are.
Milling, I can't really remember all the details of when you came here. I don't feel like searching for it. IIRC, I thought there was something inaccurate in your post that I wanted to point out. I didn't mean to seem like I was coming down on you like a ton of bricks. Anyway, that is what, 4 years ago? I would rather move past that.
About 4 years or so yes, What I found funny was the fact I am in now whether I like it or not for one, and for two its only because I do things most operating engineer locals have a hard time finding. Thats what was at the core of the original comments. I aint gonna bother looking them up either, just find it funny. Its all good.
I don't know why I am even responding to this. If what you say is true, you're going to make a decent living with good benefits. Maybe you should just be happy. There are a lot of people in this world who would love to trade places with you, (or even with the laborers you work with!) who would appreciate the opportunity to have those benefits.
In order to avoid a rehash, I can pose things in a manner much more suitable to forums guidelines because in reality our differences of opinion aren't all that terrible. Why would i have to related something that isnt true? You seem to believe I may have an agenda to mislead or that for some reason this comment lacks substance maybe due to the fact details have been omitted....whatever. Well last summer on Interstate 5 right at the washington/oregon state line, I milled 7 miles into Washington state. Its impossible to get a job running a mill in Washington state unless you are an operating engineer. At no time did an operating engineer appear to do the usual checks related to membership but if i went 7 miles from the job to Valentine resurfacing and tried to get a job it would have cost me no less than $800 just to get looked at by them. The contractor we were milling for was Granite. The mill sub, Ortiz & Associates from Sandy, Oregon. This year back east, it cost me $19.75 to register, and a handshake. No problem. My hourly on I-5 was over $50 and hour. My hourly back east here in Ohio is around $32. A little math and common sense goes along way here if any truth is stated right? Aight that thing with laborers, i doubt that carry's well either. My groundman was from Japan last summer running a grade control system under development for mills. We never once discussed union membership while on I-5 or any other jobs we did in Washington state last summer. Sometimes i ran the ground, sometimes he operated. He is the best groundman iv worked with possibly ever. No union involvement at all. You seem to feel that everything involving this topic must relate directly to your particular district and when other opinions like that fellow above from Canada made concerning union personnel is given out, there you are "brother". Seems like you have difficulty accepting a few things here as it is, have you ever been to Canada? How do you know the deal there to offer an opinion? Then to suggest benefits, im 47, iv run milling machines since 1987. I still fail to see what makes me lucky. Anybody with specialized experience can approach a union and when the bench is empty, the rules seem to be ..... Buttery.... For lack of a better term. Operating engineers are always short of mill operators, crane operators, those are two traditionally short lists. To suggest a laborer doesn't get adequate benefits or the job they do is any less significant....well, i don't know how it is where you live and it isn't fair to guess but i am not aware where the two professions denote each other, in most situations the operator can do the laborers job and the laborer can operate as well. Without each other they would have to do the job by themselves or go back to the hall telling them that isn't in your classification or job description as an engineer. See where this is leading? Oh right im lying. Guess we can't see the humour in it....i can, its hilarious. Lennon was right. If this is at all offensive to any forum members i will encourage the mods to strike this post as soon as possible. The factual aspects of this topic remain to be of interest to us all and it is my intent to show the related values to people that are not all living in the same area and the differences which cause disagreements on these topics, if we actually sat and thought about it, it relates to the government and how the people elect the government and the laws they pass which dictate union or not. But im sure my brother Buckethead who thinks i have an agenda to lie publicly and im lucky after 20 years of running equipment will not see it like that and go full out to prove his way is the only way. Right on "brother"! Anybody ever noticed that traditionally in election years the unions are needing additional members because the amounts of government issued contracts is a little higher than usual? Almost like they are spending every cent the budget has so the incoming administration has to aunty up few bucks to the procurement depts. I think that's hilarious too, almost like the system robs itself really....hahaha
We "mods" simply attempt to keep the forum "union/non-union" neutral. We typically don't allow these discussions, as per forum rules, in an effort to prevent the heated discussions that typically arise from such discussions. So far this thread has not degraded into the typical verbal fist fight. Given this, as long as you fellas agree to keep it civil, we'll allow the discussion to continue in this case.
No. I was saying that a lot of people would be happy to have ANY job with benefits, whether it was your job on the milling machine or being a laborer on the ground. And a lot of guys who want to learn to run machines who would be happy to do either job. So be thankful for what you have. Again I did not mean to seem like I was attacking you or anything.
Non Union
Self employed and in debt! Non union but pay union thug dues! With no benifits it's amazing what the IRS can get away with Ps no offense to hard working union guys.
union here
self employed
Those were some pretty interesting results. I enjoyed participating too.
Well my union contact was up Dec/31, and I just found out things are falling apart in negotiations. They put me on strike for 7weeks, 4 years ago......I'm less than impressed!!!!!!
Union and self employed