I've got a question just to satisfy my curiosity. I see a lot of videos where a motor grader is used for snow removal in cities. I'm in the Hudson Valley of NY and we rarely see motor graders used on construction job sites anymore and now that nearly all of our roads are paved very few local municipalities own a machine anymore. I've never seen a grader used for snow around here. How is the cost of the machine justified to use for snow in these cities? It wouldn't seem there would be call for grading during other times of the year with all the pavement. I understand in western states there's still a lot of gravel roads to be maintained and getting double service for snow would make sense. I watched a video yesterday in a city with square blocks that had several graders clearing snow. Wouldn't a truck with plow be both less expensive and more versatile?
Around here truck plows are used as a front line of defence but when the slush or snow turns to ice the graders are called in. Truck plow is basically useless against any accumulation of ice.
It’s been a long time since I was involved with the financials of snow removal, but yes. Graders are expensive to operate and they damage a lot of stuff. In very cold conditions, it’s the only way to cut through compact ice.
Million dollar question. I'm told the city of Montreal leases 20 or more graders for snow removal, and part of the deal is that the lease company rents them out to contractors in the summer months. I live in a small city of less than 20'000 people, and we have 2 graders, and only a few gravel roads. Both plow in the winter. Every provincial service district has a grader, but here is the kicker. They rented our company grader, along with me, as 2 of their graders were down, and I was not supposed to use the moldboard when plowing, as it made the road too slippery. I had to use the front mounted one way plow. Here in the city, Tandem trucks with sanders do the out lying areas, and main drags. The graders have assigned routes in subdivisions, as well as a fleet of single axle trucks with sanders. The down town areas, are a couple loaders with something like this. . They have area where they pile the snow up, and haul it away later. I'm told it's way cheaper than using the snow blower every storm. I'm guessing if they have it, they are going to use it. Another thing to consider. We have a lot of contracts that require sanding. All the company uses for sanders is a couple f 550s with stainless steel sanders. I've asked why they don't get a sander for one of the 5 tons, and was told that there is no need for someone with a truck license to drive the ton trucks. Not everyone that works for public works has a license to drive truck, and the way they operate, you don't need any experience to plow with the grader.
I get that in hard pack conditions graders would work better than trucks but that doesn't seem to be the case in the videos I've watched. The graders seem to be the front line plows. These videos may be in Canadian cities, I'll have to start checking the descriptions on them. Most I see have a front plow and passenger side wing and I've seen some with a sawtooth blade on the center moldboard to shred ice and hardpack. One video I watched yesterday had 3 graders working a city neighborhood together. The guys operating them appeared pretty experienced with them too articulating the machine around sharp 90° turns.
Montreal leases or rents the graders from lets say November to May, then Strongo, or Brandt rents the machines to contractors for the rest of the year. I'm guessing that the leasor maintains the machines, We had one one summer, and it had to be returned so it could be ready for snow at the start of the season. I am not aware of a situation where you could rent a truck. Maybe that's the hook? I know the city here uses some of their trucks in summer, but most just sit. The have a few gravel roads to maintain, but their graders mostly sit as well. Sidewalk plows as well as the farm tractors can have mowing attachments and sweepers attached. Adding to that. Our construction season ends in winter. Paving is mostly done in early November, and doesn't start till May. Crushing gets costly once things start to freeze up, so that ends. There are some jobs, but frozen ground makes things harder. I have been told that there is not a lot of money in plowing. High insurance costs have eliminated a lot of the cut throat practices. But every year we pay thousands to have snow tires put on loaders, then take them off in the spring. They just bought a new Cat 966XE, and have 4 new snow tires on the way for it, can just imagine what those cost. But even though they say no money in it, they also say there is no point having all these loaders sitting in the yard doing nothing.
Good point. Sometimes I wonder about the huge fleet of newer loaders I see parked all over town. The snow contractors leave them parked at the larger clients and they sit all winter. Dedicated to that one parking lot. I don’t see how that can pencil out. Or, how anyone can operate with the current snow removal insurance rates. Especially, with a currently, snowless winter. I hear the real money is in operating a snow dump.
Do tell. I live in AL and we get an inch or two of snow every 3-4 years. Have a dirt/concrete/hardcore dump but how does a snow dump work?
What they do for snow removal is put 3 foot sideboards on the standard dump trucks to haul snow. Most cities use a loader mounted snowblower with a truck loading chute to load the snow. It gets hauled from the city streets to a nearby dump area. There's usually a loader or dozer stacking the dumped snow. For plowing most municipalities use 6 wheel dumps with a front mounted plow. There are either slide in spreaders or chassis mounted for spreading salt. Our State and County use 10 wheelers for added capacity of salt. Our asphalt plants usually open end of March through the second week of December and shut down for the winter. The municipal trucks have their dump bodies remounted and haul asphalt, or debris from cleaning ditches and shoulders or other transportation needs. I've been involved in snow operations since the late 70s but mostly rural areas along with commercial parking lots.
The muni, state and federal regulations have made it nearly impossible to move snow to a central location. A flat piece of property with waste water permitting is like gold. In the past, it could be dumped into the ocean. Which has led to contractors using huge natural gas heated snow melting contraptions. The trash and solids can be separated from the melt water, which goes into the waste water stream for treatment. While that’s happening, the state operated airport dumps about 500,000 gallons of plane deicer glycol into Cook Inlet and that’s ok. Nobody wants to talk about that. And, all the stuff that gets spread on the runways and taxiways. In the past, locally produced urea was used, but since Cook Inlet natty gas is in short supply, we can’t economically operate a urea plant anymore. But, I digress.
Interesting.
Around here, I see truck mounted plows are on 10 wheel dump trucks. Some have sanders and now, some have brine tanks in the back. The Township has a flat deck that has a brine tank also during snow events. The smaller 450 and 550 sized utility trucks also got plows mounted a few yrs ago for the smaller roads. The grader( if we still have one) also is out ploughing snow. We only get a few snow events most yrs and it is all hands on deck. The neighbouring municipality is similar.
The city here contracts out about 80 to 100 graders in addition to their own fleet. A few years ago there was so much snow that companies with large parking lots were hiring the contractors at a premium. This left the city real short on snow removal equipment. The city put in a new policy that any contractors hired by the city had to give full priority to the city.
That’s a huge grader spread. Wow
I'm told a lot of Alberta does not use salt on the roads, that could explain why so many graders
Most Malls are contract, so you are getting paid anyway. We have a container with power, and I think there are 6 loaders and a couple bobcats plugged in, as well as a couple pallets of salt and calcium inside for the shovelers. In the city south of here, I see the contractor has a salt shed on site. A lot of times in a small snowfall, it's cheaper to just salt or sand it.
First off, for clarity, I'm extremely rural. I maintain 50 miles of gravel roads. I've never counted for sure, but I'm guessing I deal with 50 mailboxes and driveways or less. I run an AWD grader. I'm soooooo glad I don't blade in the city. You would rarely go 200 feet without an obstacle, driveway, vehicle, etc. If I did have to blade in the city I'd prefer a grader. Much better control of the blade. Much better maneuverability. A grader will turn a much tighter corner than a truck. Much better visibility. But to your original question, I'd say snow work is less than half of the uses of a municipality machine. So while it might seem inefficient to use a grader for snow removal, they are simply using what's in their inventory. Next time you watch a good snow removal video link it to this thread. We all like watching videos.
I drove to Michigan this summer. I couldn't believe how much rot I saw on newer vehicles. I can only conclude that the Big 3 have a salt lobby. It must be rough to buy a new vehicle knowing it'll be Swiss cheese in five years, or else it's just the way of life there. Perhaps one of you Michiganders can comment.
I'm in Canada. My 2013 Ford pickup is rusting like crazy. Like I can push my finger through some spots. My work truck is a 2018 Ford pick with the aluminum cab, and so far so good. They sent me this fall to get the under side oiled up, but no corrosion as of yet.
A loader mounted blower is expensive to run. The down town area, the sidewalk machines Take the snow to to the curb, then a couple loaders with power angle pusher blades move the snow to the center of the road, and run side by side like a couple of D8s, and pile the snow up in vacant lots. Later in the week, the night shift will haul it away to the snow dump. As of yet, there has been no issues with the environment getting involved. They use to rent out a D6 size tractor to push the snow up, but in the last while, the dumps never fill up. During a large storm, they will use the blower down town, and hire a bunch of dump trailers. Not a lot of tandem trucks around anymore, but lots of dump trailers. Areas on the fringes of the city, are contracted out. They used to use trucks with a plow and wing, but it's mostly loaders with angle pushers. Some of those blades open up to 20 feet. The contractor that does my subdivision also has a cat grader, but mostly used the loaders. Their home base is 10 miles away, and the walk the loaders every storm. Newer machines are so much smoother and faster now. I could imagine walking and old 75 screamin demon Michigan that far to plow
After watching a few videos I am more convinced how Blessed I am to not push snow in urban areas!!! For productivity and ease of operation I rate as follows. 1. Loader 2. Grader 3. Truck
Was flipped off so many times when plowing streets. One fella even stopped me to yell. The city super, stopped, and asked what the problem, and the old fella started ranting about the snow bank. The super said. We are in the business of moving snow to the side of the road, and if your driveway happens to be on the side of the road, I'm sorry. I'm sure if you and your neighbours didn't mind paying higher taxes, we could clean driveways out behind the plow.
Wonder what area that is in. The province of Ontario uses blue lights for snow removal. Here in NB it has to be amber
The concept of different colored lights is impressive. I wonder what percentage of the population know what they are?
Here’s one from the Alps, very different from here.
Here, the cops are red white and blue. Ambulance and fire are red, and anything else is amber, heavy equipment, wide load, snow removal, all amber. Ontario is the only place I know that does blue for plowing, but there could be more.
There is one spot at the 3 and a half mark that looks kinda freaky with no rail
They don't use much salt but do apply course sand. A few years ago they tried using liquid ice melter to save money on plowing and sanding. It was a complete disaster. If it got below about -18C it was basically like they sprayed water on the roads. Pretty common to get -20 and colder. Thankfully they came to their senses and went back to sanding and blading. The company supplying the liquid made claims and it didn't live up to those claims.
Yes, the roads are salted heavily, and we pay the price for it. All three of my vehicles have horrible rust in the bodies. In 2018, I bought a 2012 Expedition. It was immaculate. No rust anywhere. Today, the rocker panels are completely gone and the rust is starting to bleed through around the wheel wells. The truck runs great, but the body will be junk in a couple short years. I think the use of salt has gotten ridiculous, but the state just says use more!
Yes, we use a shrit-ton of salt here in Michigan, even have our own mine....for more rot, it gets sprayed with calcium chloride. Buy a new truck, it'll have rot before its paid off. We are at the point now where any Chevy truck made before 04-05 will have a rusted out frame. Our county is divided into 6 districts, each one has a grader. The operator keeps it at home and lives in their respective district, they also have their own fuel tank. They start plowing secondary roads, then gravel. All road commission employees have a cdl, all hands on deck during a large event. Ed
I'm guessing it must be the most cost effective way to fight the snow/ice, but as an outsider i find it a ridiculous concept that you go and buy a brand new vehicle then go drive it in salt water!!!!! Has the usage increased over the years? I spent 12 in Colorado many years ago and don't recall ever hearing about it, or doesn't it happen that far south? From memory we had plenty of snow.
In my lifetime (60yo) they have always laid it on heavy. To many people can't slow down, trust their lives to road salt. Ed
It's like your landfill, but you can fill it up every year. Takes a lot snow to make it a viable business plan though.
That's a big blower. I thought the railroad was the only one to use a rotary blower anymore. They have a couple like this here. . It has a side chute to blow far, and the main chute raises up to load trucks
The city here used to have Vohl tractors with blowers. They were 4 wheel drive possibly with Ford power trains. They'd pick up just about everything. I know a guy who used to haul snow for the city with an end dump with high sides. He had a cast iron water valve cover blow a hole through the raised sides of the end dump. It landed on someone's front yard over 100' away.
Weather is funky anyway. We had snow in November, then it rained. Had a good cold stretch, froze everything. more snow, and now it is t shirt weather and raining again. So glad I got out of snowmobiling
We have been getting fairly large swings. But generally warmer than normal. Last three weeks we've been getting small amounts of rain during the warm spells. Very hard on my roads. I need them to freeze up. Chug holes everywhere. Supposed to get rain/snow tonight. Tomorrow start heading into the big freeze. Low temps around zero F by the weekend. I don't think I can start blading tomorrow but I'll start on Wednesday for sure. Try to clean up everything before it's too frozen to work. I can run all my roads in 25 hours if I don't stop and make repairs. Just blade roads. That'll be my goal.
I don't get a lot of big grader work anymore. Maybe a month or so of a road job. Spreading a couple thousand tons of gravel a day is exhausting with trailer trucks, and string grading can be just as bad. I'd love to just do maintainence again. I could grade sun up to sun down, and just listen to the material rolling across the moldboard.. Private driveways are getting to be a pain. The way things go, I'll probably have to work to the grave to afford to eat.
Very few people understand what you said about grading sunup to sun down. I have always felt that relaxation when doing road maintenance. Strip down to a T shirt, turn on some good radio and just do my own thing without any bother. I'm Blessed that most of my roads have minimal traffic. Some areas I can work a long half day and not see another vehicle. I've taught myself to repeatedly look in the mirrors so someone doesn't sneak up on me from behind. Almost always I have moved out of the way and stopped by the time they catch up to me. As I get older I get surprised a little more often.... I'm Blessed to do Blade work more as a hobby than necessity. I log 400-450 hours per year. Just enough to feed my addiction. Not so much that I am exhausted by it. I wouldn't like what you described regarding spreading gravel or string grading.
People will say grading is grading, but there are different skill sets involved in everything. I have know guys that can grade miles of road without a ripple, but can't follow a grade, or string grade. I always craved grades to follow, it was not until I got fully into private work, that I learned to just go with it, and trust my eyes and ass. There are nuances of road maintaining that I have learned from others, and while I don't get to do it often, I really enjoy it when I do.
I've never have had grades to follow or string grade. Over the years I've built several building pads as well as driveways. Until this current machine I never had any electronic grade control or even a level bubble in the cab. I can "ass feel" level pretty accurately. Learned long ago to look at it from different angles. And when you think you've got it, get out and walk around. As for road rebuilds. When I think I'm done I park the grader and drive the road in my truck. Sometimes end up going back and getting the grader for some touch up. As for learning. I learn all the time. I'm always looking for ways to improve production and quality. I was watching a video the other day and the operator was talking about keeping the front tire off his windrow of material when grading roads. I could see his dash. He was running the articulation straight. Rear articulation is your friend and should be used almost constantly. When finish passing I straddle the windrow that's placed just off center with the front tires. Then I articulate to get the tandems running centered over the crown of the road. Sets the frame of the machine flat in the center of the road. Then control outflow with blade adjustments. Another thing I've learned. Roads vary. Material conditions vary. What might work for me might not work for you. I envy Graderman140s situation. Straight, relatively flat roads with an abundance of surface material to work with. I've watched a lot of his videos and am always jealous.
Was watching Highwat thru Hell and it looks like the new grader has a snow wing on both sides. Older shows the grader had a rotatable wing that could be used on either side.
Surprised these Volvos aren't AWD. This one is brand new.
Not sure where they are. Looks like a European plate on one of the cars. Not a lot of all wheel drives around here. That's quite a bucket on that L70. Kind of plow slash bucket, wonder if it's a high dump bucket as well?
If I hav to drive those roads, I d prefer a grader.
I think we are going to set a record for driest December. Roads are dry and bare. Temps are mild. Been a strange Nov & Dec.
Somewhere in there I remember seeing the loader dumping onto a pile.
You just jinxed yourself!!!!
Rille is from Sweden. I am somewhat concerned I know that off the top of my head.
See post 36.
Been watching a guy with a tractor plowing in the mountains. No homes around, looks like woods roads. View from the cab Tractor with wheel chains and what looks like a segmented blade. Beautiful country
Does he work with a guy in a Unimog in the Alps? They've been coming across mt YouTube feed a lot the past couple weeks. Seems like they plow almost daily!!
Beautiful, but he has better nerves than me.