I'm a homeowner looking at buying his first backhoe. I'm a decent auto mechanic and machinist. Diesel and heavy gear are new to me. I want to dig out and push over some trees, spread loam, compost, mulch, gravel foundations/driveway, rip out hedges, dig out a proper sump pit. Figured now, *** else do I have to keep busy this summer? Seems Covid tax and spring rush is high in NH and there are mostly ratty machines for insane markup. Found a local for sale. There is a farmer/builder down the road selling a 1976 JD 410 with 5900 hours, around 100 or so on a newly remanned engine for sale probably around 5 grand. Single O/O, sounds like a pretty honest stand-up guy talking to him who cared about the machine. Seems like it's in pretty good shape all things given. he wasn't around, I climbed around and looked at it cold. I took pictures, shared them here: https://imgur.com/a/gCypUfc Few things I noticed and was hoping for some input on: It was low on coolant. I saw a radiator tube connect but no overflow tank. Owner says it's not like a car and top off coolant/hydro every day, expect to go through a few gallons on a hard days work. Is that true? What's your consumption look like? Didn't start it, couldn't watch for white smoke. Radiator is newer. What should I watch out for specific to the 410? any known issues? Clutch and brakes went right to the floor when cold. Floor has fluid on it coming from the column. He told me the clutch works fine. Asked about the brakes, he told me they were airlocked 10 years ago and bled out fine, never bothered chasing it since. He kind of laughed and said operators rarely need or care for the brakes. I really DON'T want to sign on for a 40 hour job if it's that involved. Will be doing tighter quarters work against the house, not a lot of property. Should I care? Is it likely just the master? Can I pull it apart and use an oring kit? Are all the hoses on this easy to just get at TSC or specialty like Fords? How long does it take and how cheap is it to repack a cyl? See anything else stick out? If I repack a cyl, check the trans filter, redo the brake master, change a hose... do I need to drain all the fluid every time? Hard systems to bleed? Has a steady drip coming out of 1 of the pistons for the fel. looks like a steady leak 1 outrigger leaks too, ram is all scored up. Maybe silver solder it or jbweld. Considering some at-205 in the hydraulics to freshen it up but seems otherwise ok. Oil and hydro fluid were fresh and clean. Filter looked newer, floors and undercarriage were not all rotted out. Years of grease and fresh stuff on the zerks. Looks like he tried to take care of it. Sorry for the long first post, I really appreciate any input. Thanks!
The coolant thing doesn't jive for me.....But......I'm not familiar with those engines.....But if you always have to fill it up....that makes it a total loss system.....needs pressure to regulate correctly....yeah, sounds weird. Brakes on a backhoe....absolutely....mandatory. If you only plan on only using the ass end digging trenches and never using the front loader you STILL NEED the brakes to work. Hydro hoses....find a local shop. Don't buy the tractor supply ones unless its sunday and you NEED to get it running again. I just had a stabilizer cylinder done last week for my Cat 430 Backhoe.....cost me $210 for a full rebuild. Had it back the same day. You don't need to drain the system when you unhook hoses or cylinders....some plugs help...and some buckets....its usually not too bad though. That stabilizer rod looks pretty beat....it'll prolly wad up a new packing set. You can get an aftermarket cylinder for a few hundred bucks maybe $800...not too terrible.
It looks to be in fair shape for a 44 yo hoe. The clutch pedal will go to the first stop easily as it only interrupts oil flow to the reverser. Kick up the stop and push it farther to release the dry clutch. The radiator will push out coolant if it’s filled to the top and worked hard. If you can see it in the tank, it’s full enough. Brakes are a time consuming repair that requires pulling the axle housings to get to inboard brakes. Expect leaks as a reality on a closed center hydraulic machine, it’s the price to pay for the easy control touch. Lastly, run it hard for an hour and see how well the reverser works and how well it still digs. Cold oil will mask a lot of problems.
I bought your tractor in 2004. Like all John Deere TBL's it leaked in several places. After a month of TLC, lots of new hoses, filters, fluids & new findings, I hoped to use it. As I began to dig a hole for an addition on my house, I found it robust for 1/2 hour, then hydraulics didn't work much. It was then I learned John Deere had forced all independent J D industrial dealers out. My nearest dealer was "NORTRAX" 60 miles away. They would send a mechanic, estimated at $1500 per day. He would have mechanic tools & basic mechanical skills, no promises of a diagnosis, no hope for a quick repair. Later, I spoke to someone who suggested an infrared camera. Oil was flowing when it shouldn't. Start it cold, the camera will show you where it is flowing. Mine proved to have a backhoe valve defective. A hydraulic rebuilder said he didn't believe it was worn, defective from new. The small components from John Deere were NLA. The whole valve was about what the tractor would be worth functional. It got worse from there! I did eventually fix the problem & sold the tractor.
That's probably my biggest fear. I don't know how long they typically take or if it's at all shorter on this model, but, the only quote I read was 40 hours. I don't mind fixing things here and there but I don't want it to take more time than it saves me. What is typical brake life range like? If they really did bleed it once 10 years ago, are they likely to just be intact? I wonder if it's easy and accessible enough that maybe I bleed them on the spot at his farm to see if they come back or not before buying. I say TSC but also plenty of shops online I've seen come up too. Is there a certain type that doesn't fare well? Yeah, I JUST checked out a ford 455 with a cracked block that pissed coolant last week so I'm wary too. The other thought I have is the radiator cap might be loose sprung and having no overflow tank. I think I remember seeing your story on here through my searches. Luckily for me, NORTRAX is 20 miles away and I've heard glowing reviews of them locally. Sounds like you have some PTSD from a dud, sorry you had that nightmare.
The coolant loss it not right, it sounds like he should know better, it should not use a gallon a month IF not overfilled. Like repowerguy said, if you fill it to the top, there's no overflow recovery tank and you'll lose the amount that expands, that's why you only fill it halfway up the top tank, or similar. If you can see a decent amount of coolant over the tubes, it's fine. If it uses a gallon in ten hours, I'd want to know where that's going, water pumps can be expensive on Deeres, engines even worse, at least smell the exhaust and check the blow by, oil filler, and dipstick for chocolate mousse. Also open the radiator cap after it's been running a while, there should be slight pressure released, but there should be no bubbling continue even if you can see coolant moving. obviously don't do this if it's hot out and you just climbed a mountain, if you can't open a radiator cap safely, go back to bed. How long do brakes last on your car? they should last a bit longer on this. I don't even know the style of brakes on this machine, if they're hydraulic power brakes from the hydraulic system or what? You can do some research on jdparts to find out more. The hydraulic cylinders can be easy or a royal PITA. I'd probably sand down the edges on that outrigger and live with it until you've used the machine for a year and know everything will hold together for you. Same with a dripping loader cylinder, once you start doing one, all the other seals are the same age, so order in doubles unless the other side looks obviously new. Overall it doesn't LOOK bad, just be prepared for all the nickle and diming to be $200-$1,000 at a time, it adds up.
Murphy's law will prevail. If you are a mechanic, Your pay rate is low, you can take some gamble if the price reflects the risk. Might turn into a brake job, & a fresh engine. Subtract their cost from the value to you of a functional backhoe. Subtract $4000. for Murphy's Law. That is what you pay.
These John Deere tractors have a closed center hydraulic plumbing & 8 cylinder radial pump. It was in the day, far more sophisticated than any of the other manufacturers. Steady pressure was supplied to all valves in the system. If more oil flow was needed, the pump moved more volume. A Case (for example) supplies oil to one end of a seven valve stack, Open that valve fully, no pressure reaches the other valves. You might be swinging while curling the bucket, and crowding, simultaneously, you lift the boom. As you finish motion with one function another suddenly jerks. Worst sudden motion is swing, on the extreme left of the valve. In function, the JD system is far superior. Mechanics who understand it are few. A lot more of the system is under high pressure, Tiny leaks become puddles.
I'll argue that the system is not hard to understand, just different. And it will confuse you if you try to diagnose hydaulic problems thinking it's an open center system.
I had a 1981 410 I bought used and abused to build my house with in '88. It never used coolant like is being claimed here. The brakes were never right though, I always had to pump them twice for them to work and I never chased the problem. The machine did what I asked it to, I made a few bucks doing some work around town and ended up selling it after 15 years for $3000 more than I paid for it. It wasn't perfect but I'm not sorry I bought it. One wise ass machine operator who worked at a local construction company looked at it and said he'd never run that piece of excrement, I looked at him and said "It sure beats the **** out of a shovel....."
What kind of budget do you have? It might be better to look for a less complicated hyd. system in an older backhoe. Have read that if something goes wrong in the JD system it can be quite expensive to repair. I don't think I'd trust the 5900 hours and it shouldn't go through coolant.
Lantraxco used to say that all the time, some models use the same oil for transmission and all hydraulics including steering, brakes, and dif lock. If the brakes wear out and send metal everywhere, it's EVERYWHERE. It's not more complicated than an open center system on a backhoe, just different. Any backhoe with power steering, brakes, and all those valves is complicated. Closed center systems eliminate a bit of the extra it takes to make open center work together. The closed center valves all see the same pressure, the pump stops pumping when the valves close, pumps more as more valves are opened wider. Not complicated at all.
I recall that some older JD's use a common sump for everything and if you have a problem with the hyd. pump it's more complicated and expensive to fix. I guess it depends on how much the owner is able to repair before needing to call an experienced mechanic.
I have a 1974 310. The plan was to use it for a project on my small farm and then sell it, that was 9 years ago, it's just to handy to have around to get rid of. It's a very similar machine as the 410 except with a 3 cylinder engine. I paid $7500 for it 9 years ago and it had 6,000 hours on it. About a year in, the hydraulic pump went out. I bought a manual and was able to rebuild it myself (with some help from members here). I spent around $300 in parts. I have an automotive mechanic background so this was all new for me. My brakes work better than the ones on my car so I have never messed with them, but my understanding is the hydraulics come from the rest of the hydraulic system, there is no master cylinder like on a car. I would definitely want brakes so would want to get that figured out.
So, I went and took it for a run today. I worked it a bit and everything functioned great. The brakes? WERE no good but... it took all of 5 minutes to get them back. I popped the floor pan then burped the axle housings. They popped a lot of air but it only took 2 cracks of the valve and 2 good farts each side to bring em back. nice firm pedal, works great, almost wants to barrel roll if I stomp hard enough.o The hydraulic accumulator was spraying bigtime BIG leak, easily dumped a gallon on the ground in 15 minutes. I'm going to have to fix that before I can really use it, the rest are just slow leaks at worst. It's only 3 miles down the street but because the accumulator is leaking so massively I didn't want to risk trying to drive it home that way. He's going to put it on a trailer and deliver over the next few days. Now I'm going to see what it takes to get that solid again. It seems really easy to get to and probably straightforward to pull. All the fluid I could see was on bottom mount of the accumulator but above the lines.
Mine belonged to a farmer on the biggest road near. I had driven past his farm thousands of times. He sold out, had an auction. I just couldn't spare a day for the auction. Next day, I approached the buyer of the 410. He was happy to sell at a modest profit next day without spending a nickle. I went to the farmer who had owned it many years, asked if there was any reason I should avoid this machine. He went on and on about how good the brakes worked. I did not understand the backward message he was giving.
I found the mechanics who best understood these hydraulics were no longer available. Nortrax only offered generic mechanics. I'd pay a good deal of money for travel. They offered no promises he could diagnose the first day. I felt John Deere was offering hope for very high dollar customers, but hard line refusal for those with less valuable machines. If I had depended on Nortrax, parts cost would have exceeded the value of the machine.
Might be a relatively easy fix. Beware that a hydraulic accumulator is a lot of stored energy, be very careful. It will be either a spring loaded cylinder, or nitrogen charged. You just have to figure out how to take it apart safely. The fix might be just new o rings. I don't know, just warning you to look into it before you get hurt. It's not like JD only put these systems in backhoes, and for only a short time. They were used widely across the whole range of JD tractors and equipment from the 60's on. You could say a gear pump is cheaper to replace, but piston pumps have enough advantages to justify their cost, and this is one of the simplest piston pump systems you'll find.
https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/83634/referrer/navigation/pgId/211108 Looks to me to be a piston type, I don't see a bladder in the diagram. There is an orifice and I don't see a spring. I know they have quite a bit of pressure. To remove the assembly should the hydraulic side be any different from pulling a hose? Should that hold any pressure after I shut down? Easy to relieve just by bumping the bucket or something to try to let that out? Afterwards, I assume I should be able to hit the shraeder to VTA and not pull apart till after it's pressure-free. Sound about right? Then I just need to find a service book spec somewhere to tell me what charge pressure is on the 410.
Yes, that sounds right to me, if it has a valve, then just release the gas.