Howdy from Alabama Gents, I'll get right to the point. I've been operating light (Cat CR5 -CR8 and similar) to medium (Hitachi 120 - Case 210) excavators, compact track loaders, just about every brand of loader backhoe made installing water mains for a municipal water works for the past 5 years and I worked for a private contractor doing the same thing in housing developments before that. I've been an equipment hauler and dump truck driver for ten years and I've got a lot of seat time digging around utilities and avoiding the dreaded "Fiber Optic" instant bankruptcy thanks to a sense of caution and training my spotters the way I was trained. I've developed a bit of a relationship with a local owner/operator of an excavation outfit that executes site prep for all these dollar general stores that are popping up everywhere and he's watched my digs for the past couple of years. I asked him about teaching me to site grade and he's offered to take me on when I have the available time ( I work a week on call and a week off) and he would teach me how to grade. I'd really like to have a little more under my hat than just a dumb look, but I'm afraid that's all I got at the moment. I know there's a lot more to grading than most people might believe, especially if you read through the comments on some of the youtube video's when someone is showing a real keen eye and a practiced hand. I know how to backfill my own trenches and I can replicate the contours of the original grade or feature when I have to tear something up to install or repair a water main, but when it comes to taking a couple of acres of wild land and turning it into a properly sloped and drained pool table I just don't have a clue. I've played around on a small Komatsu dozer we have, but I just don't "get it" when I'm running the thing. The 2 experienced hands we have, one of which knows what he's doing, couldn't tell you how to make a ham sandwich, much less explain how to "See" the big picture and break it down into digestible parts. Not his fault I guess, he's just not good at "splainin" stuff. The other guy is better than anybody ever was at everything and runs all equipment at 110% and tears up more crap than anyone I've ever seen. I guess what I'm asking is; what do I need to know?, what advice can you give? are there any books that explain grading in a subjective or objective approach? Can you point me to any resources, and sorry, I don't care for those equipment schools, couldn't afford it if I wanted to and I'd rather get cussed at by some crotchety old hand around here than around there. There's a whole lingo associated with grading that we don't use in pipe laying and I'd like to do what I can to educate myself as much as possible so I can make my learning time on the machines as valuable as possible. I'd also like to show my benefactor that I'm really serious about learning to grade and that I'm not just wasting his time. I'd love to have a way to make some side money doing something I enjoy, God knows there's so much I'd like to do for my kids that I can't do on my current salary. Sorry the post is so long guys, please post-up if you've got some pointers, tips, leads etc... -Loco
Welcome to the Forums loco!:drinkup Glad to see another member from AL on board. Those Dollar Generals are popping up everywhere it seems. Their distribution center in B'ham is massive. An outfit from Atlanta did the grade work, it was an impressive site to see. I have more on the subject but I'm heading out the door to set a manhole and run some storm pipe, I'll comment more later.
Yes, welcome to the forums. I don't want to steal any of CM's thunder, so all I'll do is ask this question--Do you know how to read a grading plan? Because reading the plan is really the foundation for doing anything in the field. And pick up a loaf of bread. Set manhole, run pipe, PICK UP BREAD! I TOLD you you should've made a list!
Bread and Milk, bread and milk....hey, what's this string tied to my finger for, sure is making my finger hurt, I can't operate like this....there that's better.....now all I gotta do is set this man hole and I can get back to fishin'.......seems like I'm forgetting something......ah well, couldn't have been that important......
Thanks for the reply. I keep an eye out for your response. The stores going in around Gadsden/Anniston/Oxford are being graded by a local outfit.
Welcome to HEF, Here's just some of the basics I was taught and may help you visualize the site. On any typical site you're going to have high areas and low areas the process is to cut down the high and move that material to the low. Once you have a "balanced" site you then begin your sloping for natural drainage. Around here the dirt guys do the balancing then we (underground utilities) destroy everything and the dirt guys get to do some of it all over again. I digress, the whole concept is to balance the site at which point the surveyors can start tweaking for pads, utilities, curbs and roads. I can tell you this, when running a dozer it is certainly a seat-of-the-pants operation. Don't try to fight the machine you'll only end up creating a washboard, you need to start slow and become one with the machine -yes, I know that sounds weird- in time you'll be able to sense when you need to lift the blade or drop it. As was previously mentioned, get a set of site plans to view which will indicate cut and fill needs for the project then you have a better understanding of the bigger picture. Just remember, start slow and in no time you'll get the hang of it. You will washboard at first and make mistakes but none of us came out of the womb walking and talking now did we? It takes time, patience and experience to be good at finish grading but well worth the effort if you master the technique. Finish Operators make a good deal more money too. Learn how to finish with a loader, dozer and excavator and many doors open up, master (blue top) a motor grader and here at least you can right your own ticket...Good luck!
OK I'm back. Had a tough structure to set today. Originally it was two 30" RCP's and an 18" RCP going into one 58" manhole. The two 30's come into the structure and the outflow is an 18" that crosses a 24" ductile iron sewer, fiber optic line and 400 pair phone line to tap into a cast in place existing storm structure in the county ROW. The engineer let us run a very short section of 18" in lieu of a 30" from one inlet box into the structure as it was impossible to thread the 30" into it. The 30" pipe is part of an underground retention system for the chicken shack I am working on. Back to the topic - The ability to read a set of plans is very important and you have only had the opportunity to look at two sets. Let's see if we can get a set of plans in front of you. Take a look at the website below, the Anniston Family Dollar is actually on the site and you can see all the civil drawings. This is a little harder to read being in digital format. If you wanted a hard copy of these plans, LDI has an office in B'ham and the last set of prints I got from them was $3-4 a page, so if you wanted a hard copy to study that's an option. Family Dollar, Anniston AL. Click on the Civil Drawings tab. http://ldiline.com/select_files.cfm?proj=27807 Take a look at this one - http://ldiline.com/showpdf.cfm?proj=27807&file=008CIV_C3.0.pdf&dir=CIV The dark black lines where the number "13" (which is a note you can read the description on that page) is the retention pond. The dark black lines on a grade plan are usually "proposed" grades and the dashed lines are usually "existing". Those terms are literally what they are - proposed is finish grade and existing is what the site looks like now. Look at where the note # 13 is. That is a drainage note and not important as we are discussing grading. Look at the light printed number next to the 13 - 775.92. That is the existing grade elevation in that one spot. These engineers/surveyors are using point shot existing elevations instead of contour lines. The first dark black "proposed" grade (this one is a contour line) says 770.5. So in that area you will have a cut of approx. 5.42' to get to the bottom of the pond in that area. Follow the proposed grade lines across the the plan and where the point shot existing elevations are you can see how much cut or fill is needed in that area. If you were to start excavating the retention pond, I would have the surveyors lay out the "rim" of the pond with cut elevations for the rim since there is cut down to the rim from the existing grades and further cut down to the bottom of the pond. Without calculating the cut and fill for this job to be exact, it looks like this job would have some export, meaning material would have to leave the site as it wouldn't be needed to fill in other areas. Usually the surveyor/engineer will have at least one but usually two established "Bench Marks" on the site. A bench mark is usually something that is a permanent fixture and will not change, these should be marked on the plans with an elevation. On the site I am working on, one bench mark is the top of a fire hydrant and the other is an existing concrete retaining wall with an X scratched on the top of it. Once I had the surveyors lay out the pond I would start my cut getting the rim to it's proposed elevation. Then start excavating the pond down to it's lowest elevation, following the slope along the way. I would shoot my own rough grades using the established bench mark to get to the rough grade of the bottom of the pond. After the pond was rough graded, I would get the surveyors back in to give a top (rim) and bottom lay out and elevation to fine grade to. To transfer an elevation from a bench mark to an area on site I use a standard builders level set on a tripod. Set your level up and shoot your bench mark. Write down what the instrument reads on the rod, for example let's say your bench mark is 775 and you read 6.52 on your grade rod. You want to check to see if the pond is excavated down to it's 770.5 proposed elevation. Remember cut is add and fill is minus. The grade rod reading was 6.52, so that elevation is 775, you want to add the 4.5' of cut (the proposed bottom is 770.5, 775-770.5=4.5') to get a total of 11.02 on your grade rod at the bottom of the pond in the area we are using as an example. Remember every time you move your level and tripod you have to re-shoot and re-calculate your numbers as your HI (height of instrument) changes, which means you will set your level up at a different elevation and you cannot use the same shots. I hope I didn't totally cornfuse you on that last paragraph but it's really not that difficult. There is a lot more to reading plans and bringing a site to grade. There are paving sections, topsoil re-spread, building pad sub-grade, etc, etc but we'll go into that in more detail after you have had some time time to digest the first part. No, no.:nono This morning it was pick up donuts FIRST and then run pipe, set manhole and run a very short angled cut piece of 18", threading it through the structure to hit an inlet box. The sugar rush was not only anticipated but required.:tong
CM, That was an excellent explanation, let us hope it isn't too much for Locomoconomo to digest but again an excellent explanation. Sounds like you had a fun day with RCP, we recently attempted to thread 60" RCP through an 8' x 8' structure which one quickly realizes that a large round peg doesn't always fit into a small square. Ah, the Hillman and Tailman did so enjoy cutting the bell off, nothing quite like being covered in concrete dust on a hot and humid day. This particular structure weighed in at 7 tons and was loads of fun lifting and setting with a Case CX330, thankfully the dirt crew had their 'matsu PC300 handy which worked out well for a tandem lift and set...
CM....Wow, yep, just like I remember. Waaaayyyyy too much info, for now at least. All that data is just too esoteric for me yet. I'd love to see the site plan blueprints side by side with a colored dimensional graphic of existing and proposed elevation features. I know the technology exists, I've seen it on tv shows that focused on projects like this. I realize it's probably not the kind of thing generated by the engineers on a regular basis, after all, guys like you who read these things all the time automatically visualize the data so you see a picture, not a bunch of data. I'm sure I can become adept at reading these, but I sure wouldn't mind having a few tools to help me "visualize" the data. I saved the blueprint image so I can pore over it for a couple of days. Maybe I will begin to "see" the picture. Kinda like those weird 3D pictures that require you to get close and go kind of cross-eyed lol. Thanks CM, for taking the time....really. SeaMac, I totally understand the "one with the machine" thing. I'm sure lots of folks believe themselves to be gifted machine operators, whether it's a car, a motorcycle, a dozer whatever. Many of those folks are mistaken unfortunately. I'm not sure where I fall in that category as far as bulldozing goes, but to drift back to the motorcycle analogy I used previously, I got my experience for teaching motorcycle rider training by spending 6 years working as Test Rider for a certain American Motorcycle manufacturer. I spent a great deal of time on a race track developing the performance products line of that company. I accumulated several hundred thousand miles of "experience" riding at the limit, both mine and the machines, in every environmental condition imaginable. Over the years I developed an understanding of the communication mechanism between man and machine. The more I relaxed the clearer the message became. I learned that tunnel vision and muscling the machine effectively destroyed my ability to "feel" the very subtle nuances the bikes were communicating. The better you listen, the earlier you can process inputs from the machine and process that info to respond accordingly. I'm quite comfortable saying that I'm in the top 10% of motorcyclists worldwide in real world riding skills. By that I don't mean all the stunting and radical edge stuff but I can certainly slip on my leathers and leave big dark hooks in the corners while dragging my knees and controlling the acceleration wheelie. I've become almost as comfortable running mini track loaders and Ex's, although they're harder to slide through corners, lol. Really though, I started running the skid steers with the, (then) ubiquitous foot controlled boom/bucket setup and ran them like that for years before ever trying out the pilot controls so prevalent today. Since I was already competent with the foot control operation, it was an easy migration to the pilot controls. I don't know about everybody else, but I regret the loss of "Feel" I had with the manual hydraulic valve actuation even as I welcome the reduced effort required to operate pilot controls. Wish they could add some "Feel" by generating some "Tactile" feedback in pilot controls, similar to the game controllers on Xbox and such. Anyway, I guess I've gone far enough down this little tangent, but I couldn't agree more with your comments regarding "starting slow and getting the feel for it". Cheers, -Loco
BTW, does anybody have any video they would recommend of this threads subject matter? Some video, like those from "letsdig18" on youtube?
Oh and SeaMac, I would love to get some hands on schooling on a motorgrader. I watched an ALDOT hand from Calhoun county cut down a bank on the inside of a curve on Cobb Rd and the sheer versatility of that machine amazed me. It was some big Cat, a 56M or something like that??? Anyway, it was a pleasure to watch a sure hand make something so complicated look so easy. -Loco
Your welcome. It's difficult putting into words what you do on the job sometimes, so I took it as a challenge to sharpen my writing skills.
Loco, I understand completely the "muscling" of machines, it's amazing how much difference it makes when you relax and let your senses feel the machine's attitudes. Even today when we get in a hurry like when a big storm is on the horizon and we've got way too much uncovered pipe in the ground that is in dire need of backfilling. I'll start to tense up and physically try to make the machine work harder and faster. In the end I'm the one who gets cramps and worn out, it happens to the best of us I suppose. As for motor graders they are truly amazing machines in seasoned hands, watching an Operator articulate through a cul-de-sac without ever losing grade or a feather touch with the curb is a sight to see. I believe if you apply your knowlege of motorcycles to heavy equipment you'll do just fine, seems to me you'd make a fine instructor one day as well.
Thanks for the vote of confidence SeaMac. Don't know about ever being an instructor, but I do hope to achieve my personal goals, which I tend to set rather high. One day, I hope to have my own little excavation outfit doing medium and small jobs, maybe a plumbing/septic repair/install business as a component. I used to have regular access to all the mini ex's and track loaders I could need when I was a delivery driver for a rental outfit and I did a bit of "pro-bono" work installing water lines for old folks in my church and community and I'd like to do more of same. Maybe get some of these kids from the local sheriff's boys ranch that show some aptitude to learn an honorable trade. But i've got some learning to do first. A dear friend who's been a dozer and excavator hand for 30+ years paid me the highest compliment i've ever had last year. I was at our family hunting cabin in West Virginia which is on the same mountain as his year round abode and he asked me if I'd like to try out his new toy, a jd110 tlb. He needed some trees taken out and the holes filled in so I went to work. It was my first time on the 110 and I gotta give Deere a shout out for their tramming feature cause it made repositions an absolute breeze. Anyway, after taking down the trees and backfilling I gave it back and told him I'd have one in a heartbeat. He told me he'd watched plenty of hoe hands and he'd hire me and give me my choice of tractors if he was job Foreman on the gasline job he was working at the time. Coming from him, that meant allot.