Pulling all the right levers Levers for controlling equipment functions may eventually be replaced with joysticks in construction equipment generally, but reservations voiced by experienced grader operators lead Volvo CE – itself an innovator of joystick technology – to retain levers on its all new G900 Series of motor graders. Caroline Hudson explains why. It is widely accepted that motor graders are one of the more difficult machines to master and accordingly grader operators are often among the most highly-skilled (and highly respected) workers on a construction site. Because of this expertise it was only natural that when it came to developing the all-new G900 family of graders, Volvo CE’s engineers would involve experienced operators as closely as possible in the design process. Officially called the ‘Voice of the Customer’ program, it asks for feedback from operators at every stage of new product design, and proved invaluable in developing the design priorities for the new machines. One of the most revealing aspects to be debated was the choice of operator interface. The discussion centered on whether the all-new G900 Series should discard the traditional levers that have controlled graders almost since they were invented and adopt the latest in joystick technology? Although Volvo CE is a market innovator in terms of electronic joystick technology and have utilized it successfully in other products, it soon became clear that grader operators had reservations about whether the joystick approach was the optimal solution for controlling graders. “Over time the traditional lever positioning has been adopted as an industry standard,†says Brian Lowe, product manager for Volvo CE’s grader product line. “Operators are familiar with the traditional pattern and location of controls, which is an important factor to consider when deciding what lay out is most user-friendly for the people who actually operate these machines.†Obviously there will always be a certain bedding-in period when an experienced operator gets acquainted with a new grader but the important point is not to introduce too many new technological improvements too fast. Keeping the operator interface the same means operators can change from one brand to another without a vast learning curve – an important consideration when making a new grader purchase. “It was clear that changing the operator interface so radically at this point would prove too problematic for even the most experienced of operators and owners,†explains Brian. “Think of it in terms of a concert pianist being asked to play a trumpet. He may be able to read sheet music and understand the theory but he could be dumfounded when faced with valves rather than keys.†“I think that one aspect of machine control that cannot be overlooked is the astonishing evolution of blade control systems, from string lines to lasers, and now to the most advanced GPS systems. To maximize these advancements Volvo has worked at the OEM level with the major Automatic Blade Control system providers to ensure the Volvo G900 has a factory installed look and a finish grade spec that is second to none,†says Lowe. Another area of concern voiced in operator ‘clinics’ was the potential difficulties posed by the sensitivity or unintentional movement of joystick controls in various grader applications. While this sensitivity is considered an asset in other, more stationary construction machines where joysticks are fitted (backhoes, excavators, etc); it was seen as a disadvantage in graders. “When operating a grader with multiple function joysticks rather than traditional levers the operators often found that they would unintentionally change the blade elevation as they were steering, destroying the grade in the process,†says Brian. “Retaining the familiar steering wheel and keeping it independent of other controls was viewed as an advantageâ€. The standard lever pattern and lever-to-steering-wheel relationship was considered a key element for the G900’s design, both for ease of operation and accuracy. Overwhelmingly, operators want to be in complete control over what they are responsible for – the finished grade. So the traditional lever approach has been retained in what otherwise is the most technologically advanced motor grader on the market. If keeping a standard operator interface is Volvo’s homage to the familiar in the G900 grader family, then its transmission and engine are the heart of its technological innovation. The Volvo G900 motor graders feature an exclusive 11 speed transmission – an industry first. Utilizing proven Volvo transmission technology, the new HTE transmissions offer the most advanced, yet simple-to operate grader transmissions currently available. The optional HTE1160 transmission has 11 forward speeds and six reverse speeds, meaning slower ground speeds for fine grading applications but also faster travel speeds in the higher gears, leading to faster job completion times. With this new transmission, running costs are reduced as fuel efficiency is increased because there is an economical gear for every application – meaning the engine operates at its optimal speed and torque. Also, because of this greater control, more work gets completed in a single pass – meaning less grader time is needed per meter covered, further reducing costs. A key operator benefit of the G900 grader transmission is the shuttle shifting feature which allows straight-line forward to reverse gear shifts without using the inching pedal or braking first. As well as reducing operator fatigue, this feature has the added benefit of raising grader productivity on each project. Another innovation that Volvo has introduced with the G900 range of motor graders is to equip all models with a Power/Speed Engine Mode Switch as standard. This provides access to the full power of the Volvo engine at slower engine speeds, which leads to increased efficiency. Operators can switch between the ‘Power’ and ‘Speed’ settings to alter the engine’s torque curve when running in the two lower horsepower ranges. When set to ‘Power’ mode the engine provides additional low-end torque for increased productivity and caps engine speed at 1,900 rpm for greater fuel economy. When running in ‘Speed’ Mode, the grader’s engine will change its power curve to allow more efficient operation at higher ground speeds. This feature is aimed to discourage operators from over-revving the quiet-running Volvo engine and with a 6% increase in fuel economy, the 11 speed transmission has clear environmental and cost benefits for the contractor. Clearly, the design of Volvo’s G900 series of motor graders has been determined largely by experienced operators, for operators. The seven models in the range offer an unparalleled blend of user-friendly controls with technical innovations that make life easier for the skilled grader operator and many comfort features, such as in-cab air conditioning and heating systems. The G900 graders are rugged enough to stand up to the rigors of heavy material cut and push applications, flexible enough to handle variable terrain, including tight turning curves or steep inclines, and they are sensitive enough to ensure the correct grade specification is obtained, even in demanding fine grade applications. Volvo CE was the first to recognize the important role that operators play in maximizing efficiency. If they are comfortable and familiar with their machines they will work more efficiently – and develop a fondness for the machine, and in turn they will take care of it ensuring it is well maintained. Thus, operators are a key element when it comes to maximizing productivity and machine uptime. So if operators prefer familiar levers instead of joysticks in a Motor Grader, who was Volvo to argue? April 2007
Thanks for that CE writer. However, in regard to Volvo's justification of their approach I'd have to say thats a big load of Bollocks. I'm well sure that experienced operators would voice their reservations about such new controls...no doubt about that. But I think Volvo might better have said..."we haven't yet spent the R&D money on these controls so we are running with the old ones". Volvo have never been slow to innovate and I'm sure they will change in the near future....while keeping a watchful eye on the Cat grader in the interim.
My guess is that Volvo is developing joystick controls right now. It's either them or Deere, and sooner or later, all three will have it.
Atleast on the Scandinavian market you can get Volvos delivered from the dealer with joysticks (Using a system from a third party company called SVAB) failing that the Finnish manufacturer Patria Vammas have these babies for sale that comes factory equipped with joysticks http://www.patria.fi/modules/upndow...883FB7F06455EA6C53A1AE3D0DB44&layout=2005_eng
Joystick in Volvo Hello guy's I have just come in the door from Bauma today. I had a longer discussion both with Cat and Volvo on this topic. After that discussion i am convinced that all brands will have joysticks in the future. The question is when... Cat is leading, but has trouble with the system and the legal aproval.(my logical conclusion after all the delay ) But, no one will deliver anything ,if the customers aint asking for it! And so far the scandinavian customers is the only one demanding it. And thats way Wammas, Weekmas and Volvo deliver systems for their graders. I think Cat is taking a HUGE risk right now. Cause i am not convinced, that the world market means the same as the scandinavian operators. Sadly, because my experience is that the joysticks is improving the working day for all of us who operate graders. It is only a question of time, before we get the right layout, so that the grading gets perfect even if you operate multiple functions with the joysticks.
I ran a grader 1 time, I worked for a equipment rental company and all the dozers were out on rent. My shoulders hurt for 4-5 days. I have nothing but respct for a good grader operator! I worked on a job where we were laying the pad for a Home Depot and the first day I was there I pointed stakes for the operator and all I got to say is WOW :notworthy . That man was good, you could tell he was concentrating because he was chewing the hell out of the redman he had!:usa
:yup First order of buisness to be a grader man is learn to chew. I puked :throwup when I first started, but soon got the hang of it(redman by the way). This is first thing that I ask a new operator that I am training to operate a grader..Do ya chew?
Grader4me, no i do not. Growing up my grandpaw chewed about a pack and a half a day ( Red Man ). Only quit a year ago because of a triple bypass, still drinks Millerlite we he can ( grandmaw on his butt )!
A pack and a half a day? Wow! That's a lot of chewin! I quit as well, baaaad habit... Still drink the occasional bud though...
Yea, when he spit it sounded like a sink being turned wide open! When I go back into town I try to stop by and drink a beer or 3-4-5-7 with him :drinkup
Somewhat preposterous in my opinion... so Volvo thinks a motor grader operator would be dumfounded (sic) if asked to run an excavator?
On the subject of chewing - chew on this. Hi, Grader4me. With the greatest of respect, I would still say "Bullsh" to your statement about chewing. There are many and varied temperaments among operators. Some may need to chew or burn - or drink. Others, like me, do not. I once had a leading hand/grade checker who was also a surveyor. He was not a bad grade checker as grade checkers go but still made the odd mistake here and there. I almost always picked him up on them before any damage was done and I always did it in a very diplomatic and respectful manner. He commented one day that I was way too cool, calm and collected to be a grader operator (blade hand) and he was going to find out what pushed my buttons and pulled my strings. I wished him luck and continued being me. He never did manage to disrupt my cool but I saw him blow his a couple of times. There is ABSOLUTELY no point in getting all uptight about things over which you have no control. There is also no point in getting uptight over things over which you DO have control. Far better to exercise your control and make the difference than to jump up and down about it and do nothing to change it. I also don't work hard at operating anything that I am familiar with. What's the point? You have the machine to do the hard work. You are supposed to be in charge of the machine, telling it what to do, NOT having it tell you what to do. On another job, an excavator operator wanted to swap and get on my well-worn Cat 14G while I took his 30-ton excavator for the last hour of that day. We swapped, he went off and worked the grader for the last hour and I loaded his trucks. Came knock-off time and we parked the machines. He came straight over and, before I had a chance to say anything, he said,"You're a better man than I am, Ginga Din." (See Rudyard Kipling's poem of that name.) I asked him what he was talking about. He replied, "I worked my a** off for the last hour. You look as if you just sit up there and let it happen." I might add that that same operator was absent for the last 3 days of bulk earthmoving on that job and I was on the excavator, loading a Cat 660B scraper and three 13 cu. yard dump trucks. There was a Cat 815B and a Cat 825B spreading and compacting at the other end. For the 3 months that he had been on the excavator loading out, the compactors had been able to keep up reasonably easily and he never had all the haul units on the road at one time with none in the pit. For those last 3 days the compactor operators earned their pay and I had some spare time almost every round. A concert pianist playing a trumpet????????????????? NOPE!!!!!! You just need to be able to THINK the machine that you are operating - just as a multi-instrument capable musician needs to THINK the instrument he/she is playing at the time. Just MY 0.02.
Temperament???????????????? Sorry. Forgot to add in that last post: Temperamental = 10% temper and 90% mental.
Wulf I have run both but started on a grader......... hoe is easier for me to run because there are less things going on....... but thats just my opinion Cam
:lmao I would have been disappointed if my statement about "chewin" never drew a response out of you:naughty
Response?????????? Hi, Grader4me. And I'm not into ruining people's days unless there is a GOOD reason for it. I'm glad you're so easily pleased. LOL. That aside, I must confess that a lot of my fellow operators at various times have scratched their heads at the ways I do things. The point is that those ways have worked for me and that's all that matters to me.
I think it's more about priorities than whether Volvo has spent the time and money or not. I wouldn't put the new CAT M Series and put it up on a pedestal just b/c they have joysticks. This is like their first real engineering project (in regards to graders) in how many decades?? I'm not trying to tick all you CAT guys off, but really...when has CAT ever tried to be innovative in the graders? I think they bit off a little more than the kitty can chew..
I think that as a whole, there are far more new products in the pipeline than any manufacturer needs (resulting from Tier/Stage regulations). Designing, testing, and supporting all the new iron is going to be very difficult; we saw this with the Cat E-series BHL already. I would tend to agree that Cat hasn't historically been the huge innovator that sparks a revolution. There are occasions, but Cat generally has been the bellwether of the industry; it realises, however, that contractor needs may be changing. Getting good hands for years (i.e. decades) isn't always practical anymore, and to combat that, Cat's making bets in operator comfort and servicability that are geared toward making the machine more personable and more intuitive to run for today's operators. This is evident in the M-series graders. The D6K and D-series track loaders also demonstrate Cat's willingness to try new ideas. For twenty years, Cat didn't offer a tilting cab on its track loaders; it now does. The C-series skid-steers have pressurized cabs because operators tend to identify skids as being among the dirtier pieces of equipment. There are bound to be problems with many or even most of these new products, but I have faith that Cat's going in the right direction, even if it gets a hairball once in a while. Welcome to the boards, by the way -- awesome to have you here!
Cat may not have been a huge innovator in graders over the years, but then again, who has? The joystick system seems to be the only innovative feature that ANY grader manufacturer has released in quite some time.
Ummm...I never said anything about putting the Cat on a pedastel...just that Volvo put out a big flowery statement that reads like a political excuse. You could be right in that its a matter of priorities....but I don't think it will be too long before we see something different in the Volvo, probably as an option at first.
Actually there are a lot of things that have been innovated by other manufacturers that Cat didn't come up with. Let's look at a short list: Articulation Fully hydraulic brakes Easy to replace circle shoes A viable all wheel drive system A transmission that can be shuttle shifted without clutching etc, etc If it had been any other manufacturer's name on the side of the G or H series grader they would not still be around producing graders today. The H series graders were just about the last piece of new construction equipment with air over hydraulic brakes for heaven's sake!!
I agree with farm boy. To compare the graders of today with what they were say 10 years ago...well there is no comparison. There had to be some innovation there somewhere. The joysticks are definitely a major innovation for a grader though. Anyone know which company was the first to come out with the articulating grader?
First articulated graders Hi, Grader4 me. The first I know of to produce a standard (?) tandem drive articulated grader was John Deere, back in about 1968/9. That is not to say that JD WERE the first, only the first that I know of. Raygo had a big one with double articulation and 2 x 8V71 GM screamers in it, I think back in the mid-1960's. Any other offers????????? Re innovations: I personally was VERY favourably impressed with a 'Kummagutsa' GD825A grader that I operated for a while back in 1998. My favourable impression was limited to one main item - the fact that the operator station was on the rear and the front articulated away from it as opposed to some of the others, Cat included, having the operator station on the front and giving you NO feel of where the rear end really is pointing. Yes, I know there is a pointer to indicate rear articulation angle but I found the rear operating station system to be MUCH easier to use. Just my 0.02.
Articulated graders Some odd beasts.
I would expect that by ConExpo which is in March 2008 that everyone will have to be able to answer the question, "can you do joysticks" and be able to back it up.
I find it odd (seriously) that the H-series enjoyed such a long run. Makes you wonder. Who did introduce these features?
Graders My thoughts, The Cat G and H series stayed the same because they were dependable, pretty low maintenance, pretty darn rugged, and nice to run. They had a long life and good resale. Cat had a joystick simulator I tried at a convention. I can see that they will be nice to run. Also they will be easier to set up for electronic grade control. I get to run a 16G some. Man I like that machine. It moves dirt. Since ag work with it is a bit seasonal it sits parked for a couple months some times. Mice are a problem. I keep poison in it and that works pretty good. They got in the heat/ac unit once, not good. Can you imagine the damage they could do to an electronic machine? I realize new machines probably won't be parked that long.. One other concern would be electrical troubles with wiring and such. Hoses break on the old machines, fairly easy to track down. If a wire breaks on a new machine how hard to find it? The manual linkage system to the hydraulic controls was awfully dependable. Kent
Hi, Tigerotor77W. As mentioned earlier, the first 'normal' production articulaed grader that I know of was the JD 570/670. I suspect that the Raygo machine above may pre-date the JD's but I don't know. If by 'fully hydraulic' brakes you mean oil bath, then I think Cat did that first but I ain't sure. A viable all wheel drive system - Austin Western/Aveling Austin/Aveling Barford and Clark all had all wheel drive, both 4x4 and 6x6, and steering both ends before either JD or Cat. And robust beasts they were too. Not particularly 'user-friendly' but robust. Clutchless shuttle shifting - Dunno. Hope this helps.
Interesting -- thank you!
Tiger: I know a few of these. Let me take a shot. Articulation - Deere 570 Fully hydraulic brakes - I know that the Deere 570 had them, but I am not so sure that they were the first Easy to replace circle shoes - Deere with the D series.....9/16" wrench, 2 hours and 30 ft-lbs of torque A viable all wheel drive system - Deere C Series II with dual path hydrostatics - same system the Deere dozers use A transmission that can be shuttle shifted without clutching - Deere C Series II and made even better with the D series etc, etc DP: I mean fully hydraulically actuated instead of air actuated
Again, interesting. Thanks.
Everyone has their own way of doing things, and you're right, it's what ever works for you. I have seen over the years different grader operators using different methods when doing jobs but with the same end results...some better of course, due to being better operators. As far as the chewin goes..It seemed for a period of time a few years back that everywhere that I went the grader operator was chewin tobacco. I never chewed because I operated a grader, I chewed because I was stupid I have about 15 years in tobacco free.
So what will the VP of Marketing and Sales of a company owned by Volvo(whose last name is the same as Champion Pres Gary. Any relation?) say when asked the question "Can you do joysticks"? Will you be able to back it up? Volvo states their voice of the customer is "We don't want change". This "voice" of the customer would hold far more weight if the terms of the operator environment were not theoretical. Don't ask an operator if they would like joysticks. Give the operator the joysticks to USE and then ask how they feel about joysticks. I have been around numerous operators and dealer techs during the pre-production of the Cat graders and the joysticks have been very well received. Those who were reticent to try the joysticks at first were difficult to get out of the cab after a few hours on the machine. Sorry if I am biased, but Cat CAN and is doing joysticks. The 14M is on the production line, and there is no lack of orders. I feel the article that started this thread seemed more like an advertisement for Volvo and justification for not keeping up. It seems Volvo got caught sleeping and is trying to leverage the folly into a marketing ploy. Ultimately time will tell...
activeorpassive, how are the M-series holding up? Any quality issues?
I think, any grader manufacturer can answer "yes" to the question "can you do joysticks". Everybody already has some sort of experience with them whether it’s a working prototype or some after market installation. I wouldn't say Volvo or anybody got caught with their pants down. Lets face it...CAT sets the standard in many aspects of motor graders. They rule with about 60% world wide market share. They have millions of dollars to play with and resources to develop the technology they need as opposed to buying off the shelf. CAT is doing the R&D for us and will continue to develop the market. The result will be a small company such as ours to be able to purchase the same technology for a fraction of the cost. Trust me, I applaud CAT for taking the incitive. I've wanted to do this for a while now. I don't want to **** any of the CAT guys off, I just have to take up for the other manufacturers b/c if we go out on a limb and develop something such as joysticks before CAT...then CAT can come in with a system 1/2 as good and totally sell it forcing the rest of us to change. In the world of motor graders, sometimes being 2nd to do something equals great profits. And yes, there is a relation between myself and the President. I’m proud to say that Gary Abernathy is my Dad.
It think it's great that the company still has family roots while being owned by a global company. I went to Champion's website. Are you one of the gentlemen pictured (I would assume you to be the one in the peach colored shirt)?
C'mon now, no manufacturer has quality issues. Only opportunities... It seems that show stoppers that manifested during preproduction have been addressed. I haven't worked with this grader for a couple of months. I would expect the usual first generation hiccups to appear. The graders are just now rolling out, so we'll have to wait and see.
Yea, when we sold the family business to Champion in 1993 our best year was about 50 graders which was pretty good considering we started around 12 a year. We just went to work for them and they rented the building from us. Volvo bought Champion in 1997 and the only thing that changed was the name on the door. When we were "spun off" in 2004 we pretty much just changed the name on the door again....and of course had to chop up the Volvo American Express Card which hurt the most! Its been good though....we should build around 80 units this year.
Champion graders. Hi, Motor Grader. Firstly, welcome to the forum. It's good to have someone here with a foot in the manufacturing field to balance the views of those who wreck 'em and right 'em. Now for the 'cold water'. I have run a couple of Champion graders, both 710's and thankfully, neither for very long. I am also in no hurry to repeat the experience. In my humble opinion, in spite of your stated 'lack of innovation', the Cat 'G' series graders were streets ahead of the Champions that I ran, right from day one of their production. Visibility, manoeverability, ergonomics, maintenance, service life, all were way ahead to the point of being 'no contest'. To be quite honest, I would rate both John Deere and Komatsu ahead of the Champions. I ran the first 710 in late 1998 and I believe it was about 18 months old at the time. I ran the second 710 4 weeks ago and it is now an older machine. There is a Cat 12G on the same job and guess which machine nobody wants to run? On the job where I ran the first 710, I was normally running an OLD Cat 14G and I preferred running that old beast to running the 710. In fact, I ran an O&K G350 42 ton rigid frame grader on a job 10 years ago, 'boundary riding' for 3 Cat 660 scrapers, and I preferred running that jigger to the Champions. I have never run a Volvo grader so I am in no position to comment on them, other than that I don't get all hormonal about the look of the one that is working on the same job that I have been working on this week. I hope that your company has had a long, cold look at its grader design philosophy before producing your current line of graders. Ergonomics go to make up a an awful lot of what makes a good grader or a bad one. After that, controllability/handling, visibility, manoeverability, power-to-weight ratio, maintenance, service life and front/rear balance all play their part. Get them all right and you have a GRADER. Get any of them wrong and you have an also-ran. I have run 3 non-Cat machines that had 'G' series Cat style controls, a Mitsubishi 330, a JD 670 and a Komatsu GD825. All were nice machines to run but simply not in the same class as the 'G' series Cats. The Mitsubishi 330 had a conversion arrangement that used cables to connect the levers to the valves and that made them just a little stiff. The JD and the Komatsu were easier to operate but still didn't quite have the feel of the Cat system. Now this is just my 2 cents worth and nobody has to agree with me but I do have 42+ years of experience to back up the above statements. Re joysticks in graders, personally I'd LOVE to have a go at them. I have used the joystick-controlled Cat and Komatsu 4wd loaders and I liked them. If Cat can do as good a job of designing joystick controls for its graders, I honestly think they'll be a howling success. Farm Boy, I know that John Deere had a lot of innovations before Cat. Way back in 1961, I was told by the manager of the main branch of the then Cat distributor in Western Australia - who just happened to be my uncle - that Cat then owned 51% of John Deere and were using some John Deere models as test beds for innovations that they wanted to eventually introduce to Cat machines. He didn't specify which models or which innovations and I have not heard anything else about that situation since. I have no proof of this and it may just be an 'urban myth'. Let the debate continue - - - - peacefully.
Deas, Sounds like you know your motor graders. I can't really relate to alot of what you’re talking about because my involvement with the 700 Series Champions is somewhat limited. True I did work for them but now we are totally independent and own the Champion name. The graders you speak of have evolved into the Volvo G 900 Series. If you check out our website, you can get a brief history lesson as to where we have evolved from. I also worked for Volvo and have seen the Champion 700 Series come a long way. I did have the opportunity a few weeks ago to sit in a new CAT M Series and have my hands on the simulator. They brought a 140 to a Military show in St. Louis, MO. I could go on and on about what I liked and what I didn't like but bottom line is that CAT is leading the way into the future whether anyone agrees with them or not. I stand by the fact that CAT hasn't been very inovative until recently. But lets face it....they really didn't need to be. I remember back in 2001 we were at Bauma talking to the CAT Engineer and back then they were given the option to totally re-design the grader...they optioned to just leave it alone making only minor improvements. But I will say that my limited experience on the CAT proved it was the most powerful grader I had been on. It would just keep digging at the low RPM's. It did have great response and control from the controls. Not very pretty machine though. As far as comfort, the Champion 700 / Volvo G900 Series are a cut above. I'm actually coming to Sydney in August for a big Dealer startup training secession. We signed Clark Equipment as our dealer in Australia and New Zealand. We are really excited about this and look forward to exploring some of Australia.
Comfort Vs Functionality Hi, Motor Grader. Yes, I like to think that I do know my graders and I may be a rare bird amongst operators but so long as the ergonomics are good, comfort comes a distant second to fifth in considerations. I also have to be honest and say that I didn't think either of the Champions were all that flash in the comforts department and, yes, I do agree that the Cats could lift their game in that department too. Somewhere to carry a decent-sized lunchbox would be a good start. The older Cat 12E 17K's (Australian built.) were way ahead in that department. On ergonomics, the control columns in the Champions simply slid back and forth along the shaft that the steering wheel was mounted on. This meant that it moved in an arc and, as far as I could see, there was no adjustment for tilt. The control columns in the Cat, Komatsu and JD graders all move in a parallel motion and are adjustable for tilt as well. When you are doing something as concentration-intensive as final trim, it is a definite plus to have a control layout that is highly intuitive and in which functions that commonly work together are placed so that one hand can work both functions together. This was evidenced in the 'G' series by the placement of the circle reverse and power blade levers adjacent to each other under the left hand and the articulation and lean wheel levers adjacent to each other under the right hand, both pairs arranged so that the levers commonly needed to be moved in the same direction at the same time to achieve the desired results. I have not yet been in an 'H' series Cat to know about their set-up. The Komatsu GD825 and the JD670B had this same arrangement. Where they both fell down, be it ever so slightly, was that the levers themselves, were slightly larger, slightly further apart, or both. The Mitsubishi 330 had almost an exact replica of the Cat controls but with the cables connnecting the levers to the valves. I should add the set-up in the Mitsubishi was an after-market add-on. The machine originally had the controls arranged up and down the control column with no rhyme or reason to their placement so the add-on was a major improvement. The JD had another 'fall-down' as far as I was concerned in that the neutral position in the transmission control was at the rear instead of at the front as in the others. Yes, a body would likely get used to it over time but it just didn't seem as 'right' to me as having neutral at the front. On the same theme, I didn't like the Champion transmission control with two levers, one for forward/reverse and the other for gear change. I also did not like the gear change lever function because it did not have set positions for each gear. Rather, you move the lever forward to the front of its short slot to shift up one gear or back ditto to shift down one gear, much in the fashion of a motor cycle gear shift and the gear selected is displayed in a digital monitor down near the gear lever, which means that you have to take your eyes way off your work area to see what gear you are actually in. Every other power-shift grader that I have run had 'click' positions for each gear postion on a single lever. Makes a lot more sense to me. One machine that did impress me with one of its control ideas was a 20 ton Aveling Barford 6x6x6 grader that had thumb lever-controlled micro switches on each blade lift lever to control the front steering so that you didn't have to take your hands off the blade lift controls to steer the front end. Very handy when working around pegs. If you're coming to Australia in August and can find the time to make it to Brisbane, I would not be adverse to meeting with you and maybe even showing you around the place a bit. I'm not sure at the moment where/if Clark equipment is located in Brisbane but I can find out and include that in any tour if you wished.
Hi Deas, I hope you don't mind if I jump in here. I operated a 1996 720 VHP Champion Grader and control column was set up the same as the cat. There was a little foot petal at the bottom of the tower to unlock it. The old cats had the unlock at the top. There was also a steering wheel tilt. On the 96 it had the two levers as you describe, and coming from operating a Cat 140 G, this took some getting used to. After I got used to it I liked it though. The next line of Graders that we got 1997 I believe, had a different(better) set up. Forward, reverse and gear selection were on a single lever. Forward of course lever ahead, reverse lever back, upshift lever to right, downshift lever to left. Also the display screen was on the console in front of you so you could see what gear you was in. Compared to the two levers as the display screen was on the same console as the levers.
Aha!!!!! They're making changes. Hi, Grader4me. Thanks for the update. What you describe, especially the later transmission control, sounds a lot better than the set-up I ran with. I still think I'd want to see a Cat-style transmission control with click positions for each gear but some manufacturers can be a tad difficult to get the message through to. The column lock in the 2 Champions that I ran was a round nut, about 4" in diameter, in the centre of the steering wheel. To move the column in or out, you loosened the nut, slid the column to where you wanted it and re-tightened the nut. Not as convenient as the Cat locking lever or the foot pedal you described. Progress is being made. As I mentioned in my earlier post, and I think you'd agree, if you are doing 10 - 12 hours a day on anything as concentration-intensive as final trim you want the controls as intuitive and as convenient as you can get them. That is why I like the idea of the joysticks in the 'M' series Cats. I was wishing for a control set-up similar to what is in the Cat D10R/D11R around 35 years ago. It didn't take Cat - or any other manufacturer - long to get around to that - only 25 years or so. Motor Grader may just have a point about Cat not being all that innovative. However, that said, I don't give a tinker's dam what anybody else thinks or says, Cat has managed to lead the market in the design and manufacture of graders, dozers, scrapers and front end loaders for more years that I've been operating and I'd guess that they still have more heavy units in the field than any other two manufacturers. I guess there will always be debate on topics such as this as different people have different ideas on what is needed and what works best. This debate will, I hope, be healthy for the future development of earthmoving machinery, indeed of machinery in general. I also hope that not too many noses get broken or out of joint over these issues in the process. Let the debate continue. Peacefully.
Debate continues.. I have stated in earlier threads that my all time favorite grader was the 1978 Cat 140G that I operated. I have operated Gallions,Wabcos, John deere, Hubers and Champions. When I got the new Champion I liked it because it was new . Great heater in the winter, great air conditioner in the summer. But it was not a Cat, and these were the only reasons that I chose (yes it was my choice) the Champion. I liked the John Deere because of the all wheel drive, but I wouldn't have traded it for my Cat. I have never tryed the new Volvo so I cannot comment, but going by what MKTEF has to say about them, I think that they would be quite a machine. I would just love to have the opportunity to try the joy sticks and the "M series" Cat grader. Bottom line is that I agree with Deas...darn hard to beat a Cat
DP.....I have heard this BS before and let me tell you that this is nothing more than truly an "urban myth." Check out the url below.... No where does it mention Caterpillar owning any part of Deere! I personally think that there are people at Cat that are p*ssed off that they didn't think of some of the innovations that Deere has come up with and this story is the best thing that they can come up with to quasi take credit for it.
Urban Myths tend to often have just a grain of truth somewhere. Maybe some Cat shareholders also held shares in JD...probably quite common these days. Anyway...what we need is some HEF Mythbusting..so somebody with a copy of: John Deere's Company: A History of Deere & Company and Its Times. by Wayne G. Broehl, Jr. should be able to help out....anybody??
I stand to be corrected on most of my posts. Hi, Farm Boy. Thanks for the link. As I said in my earlier post, I had no proof of it and had never heard of it again so it may well be an urban myth. Thanks again.
Back to the topic: Here is a video of the "joysticks" in a Vammas grader. I am not a expert on Vammas history, but i belewe they have had this solution from around 1995 untill today. From 2006 as a option.(correct me somebody if i am wrong) Now they got two joysticks as pictured in the brochure posted here 2 days ago. Here is a video of the Vammas RG181: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4YUykrMTkk I had a RG286 on test last year with this layout, work's well when you get used to it. Stear and gear with your left, and operate the blade with your right hand. The 5 levers closest to the hand is elctrohydraulic. Then there is 5 in front of them that is directly on the sentral. There is a 3. row in front of those again, with 5 electrohydraulic paddles. The ones u use most is on 1.row, 2.pri on 2.row, addons/opptions on 3.row. Left main as nr 1. to the left, right lift as nr 2, rotate on nr 3,,, Programmable of course.
Cat/Deere that timeline did show Cat and Deere joining forces around 1935 lasting until the mid/late 60s.
According to the swedish construction business magazine "Trucking" Vägverket (The national Swedish road authority) have as the first customer in Europe placed an order for 3 joystick controlled Cat graders to be delivered this fall.
Then they are before the Norwegian Mesta. Cat(PON) announced in their Cat drivers magazine that they had sold a number to MESTA, but Mesta keeps calling Volvo asking about how many Volvo's they can deliver in 2007. The only ones that is sold here, is a smal number to some community's road maintenance departement's.(confirmed by the customers) Problem is they only want 120 and 140's, and they are planned for production in a plant that haven't started production yet... Last rumors say's delivery this fall, evil ones say's new/next year. And i hear questions asked about the lack of a backup system for the stearing. (if u loose electricity, u loose stearing) If any of u guy's know anything, please let us know, we are very curious. (and want to test it! )
According to the Vägverket homepage 2 of the graders will be getting to know the Swedish winter first hand they are being sent on snow clearing duties in the north of Sweden while the third are going to work on (By me and many other people) eagerly awaited removal of a major bottleneck on riksväg 70 (roughly route 70). Caterpillar won the bid for the contract for the 3 graders mainly due to the superior working enviroment for the driver. 4 manufacturers were considered probably Volvo, The swedish Mattsson , the Finnish Veekmas/Vammas and Cat.
Graders Hello Deas, From your quoted experience, you are probably around my age. One of the best graders I ever drove was a T600 Gallion, around 1972. Had a turbo-cummins, powershift & was fully hydraulic and it looked similar to a Cat 17K. This was on a Gold Coast contract for Lakeside, before they went belly-up (I was on a hired in dozer) and in those days operators would commonly swap machines between smoko & lunch, then be back on their own rig for knock-off. My life was mainly concerned with dozers and scrapers and I love to think of the bad old days when we shifted scrapers by driving them on the road and when low-loaders had no ramps, just climb up over a wooden block. Much fun back then. I have now sold my last gear and live at Upper Coomera, Gold Coast. Give me a ring some time if you like. 0418 185 631
Mice in equipment Mice are just a small problem. Many years ago I was operating a large Wabco elevating scraper on a private water storage project. At night I used to pull up against the bank with the machine level so I could walk on/off with my gear. This thing had a 12V71 in the front and it used to start first touch of the button. I'd checked fluid and engine oil, then when I started, a huge mess of fox fur and guts exploded from the fan. The fox must have camped there for the night. Big mistake!!
Contact. Hi, Ray Welsh. Welcome to the forum. I'm not quite fossilised yet, still working full-time for a contractor down at Latimer's Crossing, mainly leveling house sites around the Gold Coast and South Brisbane to +/- 10 - 15 mm using a laser monitor on the machine, not laser controlled. He has 943's, 953's and 3 assorted excavators, all 14 - 16 tonnes. He used to have a Cat D5B wide gauge dozer too but he sold it about 3 months ago 'cos he reckoned it needed too much spending on it. I was cutting house pads with that to the same tolerances as the other operators using the track loaders with spreader bars. He didn't like the fact that I liked running that better than the loaders and the fact that I was doing bigger jobs quicker with it didn't seem to matter. The only Galion graders I got to run were the old GM 3-4/71 powered 118's and a few little 503's. I found both machines to be relatively easy to operate and pretty reliable. The only real complaint was about the 503's with that 'iceberg' of an International diesel in them, that needed 'spray-fresh' to start it if it had been stopped for more than about 15 minutes. I did get to run an O&K G350 grader, air-over-hydraulic controls, 20 foot blade, 42 tons, 380 hp with an 855 Cummins donk. That thing could move dirt. It could also push-load Cat 660 scrapers better than a 270 hp D8H dozer. I was tending fill and haul roads for 3 x 660's, ripping the borrow pit for them and doing other odd jobs around the site as well. I was kept busy but not working my 'delicate little derriere' off. Low-loaders without ramps? Yep, I loaded a few on some of them. I can remember Thiess Contractors loading the prime mover of a 630 or 631 on the deck of the float and having a dolly that went under the rear push block. Putting D8's and D9's on side loaders standing on 11.00 x 20 tyres and wheels with the deck 3 + feet off the ground. The kids of today are missing out on a LOT of fun. I tried ringing your number a little while ago but got a 'number not connected' message. If you want to drop me an e-mail, I'll send you a copy of a book that I'm working on (slowly) about my work experiences and funny events and stories from here, there and everywhere. Catchyalater.
Sorry I gave you the wrong Ph number. It is 0418 189 631. I carry many numbers in my head and the one I got wrong is my own. Is there a secret message there??? My email is: [email protected] A draught of your book would be interesting. Regards.........Ray
Hi everybody. My name is Eric and I'm an operator in a copper mine. I run all kinds of different stuff, among which is a 16m. I Love it!! This thing is awsome. It takes about a week to really get the hang of it and after that it is SO sweet. Here are a few pics. We also run an old G model and a couple of H models.
The coolest feature is the "back to center" button. Left joystick, yellow button on far right. You can be articulated 100% and hit that button and QUICKLY return to center. Is great for making fast turns to dodge haul trucks.
Welcome to the forum Eric! Great pictures! You lucky dog! Geez.. where is the drooling smilie when you need it.
Looks like Cat needs to still make thicker glass...
Yeah:beatsme .. MSHA requires we take out the factory glass and put in shatter proof, so it goes to the cheapest bidder, real quality :Banghead
:falldownlaugh I asked our grader operator over the radio the other day (only pass eachother on the road and talk on the radio, never seen him out of machine) if he chewed.... Yes why... Cause I hear learning how to chew is the first requirement of being a good blade hand... He laughs very hard and says that now that he thinks of it about every blade hand he knows chews. Well today I got a chance to talk to him in person for a few minutes while he was eating a sandwich in the 160H. I noticed that there was a custom label above the windshield that said "just because you have a lunch box does not make you a GRADER OPERATOR" We got a good laugh, then I asked him about some of the lifetime stats on the machine. He listed several of them off, then I asked what it said for the total number of cans of chew consumed. We both had a real good laugh and enjoyed the rest of the day. :drinkup
That's a good story Dirthauler I highlighted one section of your comments for Deas Plant to read.. LOL...:stirthepot.....( wait for it..)
How does the joystick steering go when trimming along kerbs? Not too twitchy? Obviously have not seen one in the flesh.
On the delicate subject of 'chewing'............. Hi, Grader4me. Yes, I DO chew. BUT, it has NADA to do with tobacco or any of its derivatives. I CHEW my food, I CHEW over various bits of information, I CHEW out people who make my life harder than it needs to be - - - and I CHEW - - - - - use your imagination.
Would your feelings be hurt if I choose not to use my imagination? Tooo much information :spaz
That's the trouble. Hi, Grader4me. Choose wutchyer like. Yer kno, that's ther trouble with ther younger generation - no spirit of adventure. LOL.
Joystick vs traditional ? Yes the battle for dominance or supremancy of grader joystick functions, is not over. It will be another industry battle . The best routing of functions has not yet been proven. Caterpillar has failed in this aspect ! Not enough developement by the most 30+ years experienced operators ! The lean wheel function needs to be over with the blade functions and the hand throttle elsewhere.