My Case 580 Super N backhoe has a hammer circuit. It has never been used. I want to put a thumb on it. It is a real challenge to get a flex hose up through the joint where extend a hoe meets the boom. Since Case engineers found a way to get two extra lines up through this I want to take advantage of existing lines, a mix of steel & flexible. Factory lines are each in several pieces. Case replacement; I believe are configured about the same, but one piece. They cost about $2000. Present lines both leak where the flex. I'd like to replace the flex portion & reduce size. Case uses a lot of steel formed tube & weld on socket fittings. They must come from somewhere. Does anyone have a source? I want fittings to join steel .990" OD tubing to 1/2" IPT male. In other words a female IPT to weld on female.
What is IPT? I use Anchor. Available through lots of vendors. Weld Couplings - Full & Half Couplings | Anchor Fluid Power As the leading manufacturer & supplier of high-quality products for your hydraulic connection, Anchor Fluid Power provides weld couplings. Request a quote today! catalog.anchorfluidpower.com
Gates build a compression fitting that crimps onto metal pipe that might work also. I can't find any examples online right now but I've installed them before
I have done a lot of case lines like that. I always take a regular crimp on fitting and modify it in the lathe to be a tap on fit on the end of the tube and then TIG weld fitting on. They do make weld on fittings or silver braze rather but to keep stock of those along with all the different hose fittings isn't worth it to me. I already have all of the hose fittings so I just make them work. Last ones I did were for a 590SN on the ex-hoe lines
Standardized pipe thread It stands for Iron Pipe Tapered, standard thread for American plumbing joints.
Personally not a fan of silver solder. A previous employer rigged up an aux circuit on a machine and just about every end that was silver soldered blew off within a month. Maybe it was a poor solder job but I have a hard time believing that nearly every joint was done incorrectly by the welder, who had 25+ years experience.
Silver solder is good if done correctly. If you see a bead of solder were the pipe and fitments meet then it's been done wrong. Solder should be melted in-between the 2 surfaces.
One thing that is very important with socket weld fittings is to push the tube in tight, mark it and then back it out about 1/8" to allow for expansion from the welding heat. If you just push them together tight and weld them the fittings and/or the tube can and will split open. Even on heavier wall pipe the fittings can split open if there's no room for expansion.
Yes, I had silvered soldered lines for my 4 in 1 bucket. Proper silver soldering is very similar to soldering copper pipes and used capillary action to pull the silver solder into the space between the tube and the fitting. It shouldn't have much build up if any where the tube goes in the fitting. Everything needs to be really clean. I haven't done much silver soldering but have seen it demo'd in school. You also need to use the correct flux like Handy flux. Some silver solder has its own flux but it's usually larger sticks of it. The small stuff you buy by the ounce needs the flux. I do know that silver solder isn't cheap!
I am not a huge fan of silver solder either but that is just because I have never done it. I do know that most all factory joints are silver soldered including injector lines. @Welder Dave do you have any tips on the process? I do have a project for my uncle that involves silver soldering banjo fittings onto injector lines for his 1256IH. Not sure if standard brazing would hold up to the pressure or the vibration and pulsating required for all 6 of the lines between the pump and injectors.
Good to know, Should I ever find what I need I'll remember.
These appear to be threaded both ends. They do offer half couplings, be nice resource building a tank, but not what I need now. I need a socket to insert the end of a steel hydraulic tube, then weld, braze, or silver solder in place. Other end would be some threaded variety I can connect hose to.
We always called it NPT, for National Pipe Tapered. I thought maybe IPT was for Internal Pipe Tapered.
No shop there that makes steel hydraulic lines ?
Not that I have found. Cassella is trash hauling & large scale earthmoving. They had identical twins ran their hydraulic shop. They run on priority basis. They do their own work, then large scale customers, seldom find time for small customers. One of the twins quit Cassella & went on his own. He was immediately backed up years worth of work waiting on him. Then OMYA, a very large quarry told him he can name his own price, they want him full time.
We get them rrom Tompkins, however that is wholesale only. There series number is 0404-, Here is a Amazon link showing what I'm thinking of. Unfortunately currently unavailable https://www.amazon.com/404-10-08-1-Male-840-14-Threads-Braze/dp/B01CUR5492?gQT=1
I've done a fair amount of silver soldering using 15% sticks on new copper. Never needed flux for that. I had a project once soldering SS high vacuum valves to SS tube for a freeze drier. It required a special solder but I can't for the life of me remember what I used. McMaster Carr has a good selection of sleeves and nuts for compression connections. McMaster-Carr McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day. www.mcmaster.com
Braze fittings for hard line are available at discounthydraulichose.com
No mention of weld on fittings.
Called them early in my search, they declined.
Simply get Xh pipe, bore or ream out thread on one end and weld it on. Extra heavy will handle hi pressure hyd.
Silver solder is sometimes referred to as high temperature brazing. Lucas Milhaupt are the biggest name in silver solder and have a lot of info online. They also have a 64 page brazing book online. Here's the basics and there is a video library online as well. Note how it mentions how much gap to leave. When heating you want to bring the parts up to heat somewhat gradually rather than just taking a big tip and heating them up really fast. An oxy/acetylene welding tip is best. When the heat is right the silver solder will get sucked into the joint very similar to soldering copper pipes. There is also mention that silver solder can withstand 100,000 PSI so is no problem for injector lines when done right. Brazing Fundamentals | Lucas Milhaupt www.lucasmilhaupt.com Frequently Asked Questions | Lucas Milhaupt www.lucasmilhaupt.com
Thank you for the info. I have talked to several local job shops/ welding shops in the area and none of them could give me much help. The one place sells the flux and about a dozen different types of the solder but had idea which type to use or how to use it.
Lucas Milhaupt has good customer service too if you call them.
Great, thanks again. I will definitely be reaching out to them tomorrow.
I really dont look forward to tig, not that I cant but other than some field work and using up some rods would be wire welding them if it was humanly possible. On small stuff, fussy stuff grind the starts right up and make as few stops as I can.
My small feeder is a 180 and keep 030 in it. One machine I just never owned, have ran a couple is a 120V feeder and want it in a ProMig or similar Linc with 5 speed tap tranny to run 023 in. Just a spritz of water on the floor I think and the location is still similar as this pic.
It seems everyone is talking about brazing steel. If you buy steel fittings just weld them. A 7018 stick will do it. I have taken old fittings that still had a good flare end and just welded them over the oil passage hole. Making a cylinder is really not as complicated as most think. Making custom lines and welding fittings is not a big deal either. Hvac Copper brazing rods can also work on small lines. I have seen all sorts of field repairs kepp it going.
I agree. When I was a kid we braze everything in sight. Been years since I do it and weld it with steel.
Silver solder is not brazing and is much stronger (up to 100,000 PSI). It also handles vibration and pressure spikes better. The biggest advantage is you can use thin wall seamless hydraulic tubing and much smaller fittings. Using standard socket weld fittings and seamless pipe under 3/4" dia. would be a pain to stick weld. The proper way to do socket welds is to run a 6010 root pass followed by a 7018 cap but some people cheat and just use 7018. You also have to worry about slag inclusion unless you partly weld then clean the slag before finishing. Silver solder is also much easier than Tig because it uses capillary action. You don't need to carefully weld 360 deg's. around the fitting. You just heat the fitting and the silver solder flows in joint. There are good reasons just about all OEM's use silver soldered fittings over welded fittings.
I have one of the hard lines on my stabilizer I swung the bucket into and cracked right at the nut early on when I got my machine. I pulled it, cleaned it, and mig welded it. Been holding ever since.
Just about everything has been used for repairing lines. Some repairs last and some don't. If making new lines it depends on a few factors. I need new lines for my 4 in 1 bucket but not sure how I'll make them yet. OEM were silver soldered but the tubing bends easy if a branch gets caught.
Fittings I bought are only labeled China, SS. They are stainless steel. Tube proved to be very hard. I ruined a metal cutting bandsaw blade cutting it. It looked stainless, but cut, it looks copper colored. I don't know what it is made of. I have Hastelloy, or several choices of stainless filler. I bored out one end of 3/4" couplings to accept the tubing. It is a loose fit, so I plan to TIG rather than silver solder.
I have some fitting that start out gold colored. If you leave them sitting outside long enough they rust. I was unsure if I could weld them and tested one with a 7018, it is steel. I took a hack saw and cut off the threaded nut and just welded to the center or the fitting. I needed a flared end on an elbow.
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McMaster-Carr McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day. www.mcmaster.com If you want to weld a section of pipe/tube directly to the cylinder, use a weldolet. Edit: McMaster's prices are often crazy high. You can probably find these much less expensive - if you shop around. Second Edit: if you have a lathe and a grinder, you can easily make your own weldolet. Just make sure you don't use a free-machining steel. Select an alloy intended for welding. . . .
Both struck out. Found a company would make fittings, $500. minimum. I ended up using 3/4" NPT couplings, bored out one end 1" to accept the .99" tube. I learned the hard way that it WAS stainless tube. Welded up the first one with no back purge, I got "sugaring" on the inside. Second one I purged. I used a 3/4" threaded plug, just started in the coupling. Ran a hose in the other end of the tube. When I started the second pass around the tube, pressure inside made it blow out.
https://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/s0fb01 Helpful tip: Solar Type B (above link) - an alternative to backside purge. It's a powder. Mix a small pinch with methanol to the consistency of toothpaste. Brush it on the inside (backside) of stainless steel parts before welding. Let dry. The weld heat melts the paste forming a thin glass-like layer which seals out O2 and N2. You can achieve nuclear-grade stainless welds with no backside purge using Solar Type B. The residual glass-like layer is very thin, and extremely tightly adhering (difficult to remove). I normally just leave it. Much less expensive than Argon purge, and less hassle too. Solar Type B is good stuff.
Threaded weld fittings are typically slightly oversize to allow for contraction after welding. This way you don't have to run a tap in them after welding. I'm not sure if socket weld fittings are also slightly oversize to allow for contraction. Socket weld fittings are generally heavy wall and bulky. Solar Flux can be hard to find. It was off the market in Canada but may be available again. I think it had to do with ingredients in it being harmful to the environment. When I worked for a large industrial supplier there were several products banned from being imported because of new environmental regulations. Brake and contact cleaners are some items that had to change formulas and the new stuff isn't nearly as good as the old stuff.
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Piper was the only who didn't say NO. The engineer was pleasant, "You're not Caterpillar ordering 50,000 items. We would fill their order with a $500. design charge."
Haven't tried Anchor. All others offer nothing. I ended up reaming part of the threads from other available items & TIG welding with stainless filler. I have one more fitting to make from two tomorrow.
Realize it’s a hike but Curtis Hydraulics in Hooksett NH is the best hydraulic shop you will find. They do everything, including steel pipe and bending and they have all the weld on fittings, you could possibly want. Going over there later today to pick up some seals and might talk to him about going through my CharLynn drive motor I replaced as he has a hydraulic pump testing bench.
How do you plan to tackle your thumb, with the extenda-hoe?
I believe he said he has a Case which means the outer extention tube where the thumb will be attached is the part that moves with the bucket. As far as I know in my short time on this rock case has been set up that way since they started with extend a hoes
Not sure what plumbing supply is like there. Need an industrial type store, probably a hyd store is near but simple industrial and get heavywall and fittings. Used in process and for steam and might be easier than special tubing. I try to avoid all that stuff if I can and build from simple stock if it's possible and like these guys have stick welded hundreds of fittings. I am low pressure with older equipment so black pipe off the shelf works. Common wall with seamless prolly be fine up to 1/2 and 3000#, common works on my 70s JD pressures even screwed.
The Case 580 SuperN isn't a big problem, what is tricky is the hoses have to extend 48 inches farther depending on the position of the extend a hoe. Last Case was a 580K. I built the thumb. Extend a hoe adds 1 ton to the overall weight of the K. Extra big front counter weight, bigger tires, more hydraulics, but most of that ton is dipper. With thumb, it added more weight. K is notoriously jumpy, especially the swing. Tail tended to wag the dog. I found it worthwhile to remove the thumb when ditching.
They specify port relief set at 2700 LBS.
Seamless is preferred and nice but I have done a lot of hydraulic with straight black iron pipe and fittings, all high pressure. Biggest thing is vibration and can’t beat Stauff mounts.
Just tie your aux lines along side your bucket cyl lines in the big loop they make between boom and dipper. If it has factory auxiliaries it should actually have the rubber hose mount for 4 hoses instead of 2. And I am not sure about the 80N's but the 90N's the left or right (cant remember which, maybe both)aux lines are not even available from case anymore. I just cut off the hose from the end of the tube and TIG a -12 ORF male fitting to end of tube. Have a customer that I have replaced every hose and steel tube on her 90 with ex hoe and thumb. I will tell you that you are better off to remove the dipper to boom pin and use the dipper cylinder to push dipper out of the way. Even with that though it is still a royal PITA to get all of the clamps in place and the tubes lined up and pointing the right directions.
Using standard black pipe you buy at Home Depot or a hardware store is just asking for trouble using it for hydraulics.
I have used it good long time. I can't remember ever having a piece break or split.