So I may have screwed up big time. I was welding a crack in the frame under my right lift arm and blew a hole into what I think would be my hydraulic reservoir. Ive attached a picture of where the hole was (i welded it closed) but I heard sizzling sounds like I blew metal into the hydraulic reservoir. Does the reservoir sit directly behind the plate where I have circled in the picture. If so, will I need to drain the whole system to get the metal out or will it fall to the bottom and be ok? Thanks for your insight. If I do drain hydraulic fluid from the reservoir, which i probably will, do I need flush the entire system or can I just drain the res. My concern is that im not sure what type of fluid previous owner used in the system so I dont want to have two different fluid types in there. That would create an issue right? I think 10 30 fluid is the standard so that is what i will use. Would it create a problem with the pump if 10 30 was mixed with a different type of hydraulic fluid or are they all pretty similar?
10w30 diesel motor oil is now recommend. Additive is no longer available.
how can i tell what is already in there? Would it hurt the hydraulic system if I add motor oil to it if there was a different type of fluid in there already?
AW46 is pretty much widely used oil for hydraulics. Using motor oil temporarily is not a catastrophe. But if you hell bent on using motor oil, then 15w40 is better choice. Motor oil and hydraulic oil just have different additive packages, because they work in different chemical and anti wear environments. For example: many John Deere hydrostatic dozers, which use Danfoss Series 90 pretty much hydraulic pumps and motors - want to use motor oil in them. If exactly the same pumps ad motors will be in some other equipment - manufacturer will want you to use AW46 oil.
If it ain’t leaking, I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s on the side of the tank. I don’t see a hydraulic oil mess anywhere. Did any oil come out at all? If not, could have just been a puddle of ice or snow. My experience welding on hydraulic tanks, when you punch through, you always know it, it’s a bitch to get it to stop dripping, without a bit of prep. A little hissing isn’t usually a sound you hear. Regardless, it would just be slag on the bottom of the tank, quite far from the hydraulic pick up tube.
CASE skid steers have recommended 10-30 for decades.
Just FYI, Case skid steers used 10w30 motor oil + the HTO additive for the hydraulics for many years. 15w40 is not advisable, nor is AW46. 10w30 Rotella is about the closest thing available now since the HTO additive has been discontinued. As to the OP problem, first don’t start the machine. If it were mine I would drain the fluid, and clean and inspect the tank.
Well - I’m not Case mechanic. I’m “hydraulics” or “fluid power” specialist. I looked up the most sensitive or expensive components in that machine: Drive pumps are Danfoss Series 40 M46 - there’s millions of pieces of equipment with those pumps, in single and/or tandem configuration, operating on almost everything under the sun, from hydraulic oil to ATF ( Genie man lifts). Drive motors also Danfoss. Orbital motor, I always get lost in their “O” abbreviations, but basically equivalent of Charr Lynn 10 000 series - also in millions of pieces of the equipment, working on “everything under the sun”, looong hours. Nothing fancy like Hitachi HPV which supposedly doesn’t like zink ( which is BS also, bunch of my customers running their excavators on all kinds of crap, even darned 303 - and those things just keep “kicking arse”!), or Linde pumps in JD 690 - those craps truly super picky about oil)! Lear’s get to the oil itself: adding HTO to motor oil - you basically creating Hydraulic oil out of motor oil, with little bit better temperature and chemical resistant package - I don’t see a huge deal about that. Interestingly enough, all excavators they recommend - straight AW, with viscosity according to ambient to local climate. So yes - Case is full of “bovine excrement”, looks like CNH found the way to make some extra do. Selling HTO additive.
Just because a given OEM recomends "so-and-so" fluid in a particular compartment does not make it right, it just makes it what they recommend in their manuals. Just sayin'..........
I think I was above the actual fluid level almost at the top of the tank. It could have been snow/water thats for suree
I'm not sure what fluid previous owner was using. How bad is it to mix fluids? I assume he either used 10-30 motor oil or straight hydraulic fluid. Sounds like you are saying they are almost identical fluids.
Being honest - not a problem at all. Unless you using absolute garbage. It is more of longevity question. Contemporary motor oils, with higher “C” rating pretty much have that ZDDP ( HTO) package in them. Like I said - there’s millions of those systems, with exactly the same components, running on different oils ( including ATF) - without a problems for very many thousands of hours. The only thing you want to remember is for axles and transmissions that have “dynamic” brakes or limited slip differentials - you want an additive for that. But let’s say JD recommends the same Hyguard for tractors “wet brakes” and axles with limited slip. The other thing is manufacturer wants you to buy new equipment in certain period of years. So their recommendations are aimed only good enough to last warranty period. Same JD/Zf axles, I have customers who is freaking out about “manufacturers recommendation”, and I have ones who wants better. For the ones who want better I recommend changing to 85-140 gear oil, with LSD package for axle tube and hubs with inboard multiple disc brakes. But being honest - none of those pieces of equipment have enough hours on them to compare. They usually get scrapped for some other reason, long before something happens to those components.
The HTO fluid was added to the 1800 series but stopped after that. I don't think you can even get HTO anymore. I am not sure how they make more money off of recommending 10-30 but whatever. I think following the recommendations of the OEM is the safest way of being sure your putting in the machine what works. Pretty hard to justify using something else and making an argument that your idea is better than theirs. It's an argument that the customer is set up to lose if it all became an issue.
I didn’t say anything about making money on motor oil, I said it about HTO additive. You do you, or anyone can do whatever they want. To me - it’s all sounds like sales gimmick. I know which components require “special fluids”, and I didn’t see any of those in those machines. Always was baffled with “super duper mega” requirements of certain manufacturers, that running exactly the same stuff that the next guy - without those requirements and recommendations, for 10.000 - 15,000 hours, then replacing bearings and lapping valve plate and run again, on third engine.
While the machine is in warranty I agree. Pretty easy in my experience with hours of oil analysis results behind the decision proving that an alternative lubricant actually performs way better than the factory recommendation. Seen it loads of times. For the small owner/operator or contractor it's not a viable proposition but that's what a lot of them come here for, to get advice based on people with potentially wider experience.
Well if it where me id put moble 424 hygard or about any other oil in it that is of a tractor transmisson grade (something of a name brand not cheap trash) we have done it for years with out trouble in new hollands and deere skids. At the end of the day its a machine that most likely wont see but a thousand more hours in its life.
Does the hydraulic filter pick up oil from the reservoir or does it filter the oil going back into the reservoir? Hoping the line comes from the reservoir to the filter so any other metal in there gets filtered first before heading to the pump but I read somewhere that it filters the oil going back into the reservoir. I hope they were wrong. I went with Rotella T4 10w-30 because it has at least the ck-4(?) additive in it which is one Case recommends. Also talked to a Case dealership and they said any SAE 10-30 oil is what they recommend. So I think I am good with the higher grade T4 rotella. Glad i drained the reservoir there was water and a good amount of nasty sludge that came out of it.
They pretty much was right - it is return filter. Even if you have suction strainer - it is pretty coarse one. Drive should have charge filter, so if you will kill anything in the drive it’ll be charge pump. Gear pumps will get anything that will pass through strainer
Where is the suction strainer located?
Should be in the tank.
I could maybe agree if the recommend fluid was something other than 10w-30. It doesn't get much easier to find or cheaper than that. Other things may work, but the term better in this case is subjective. My own experience in dozens of machines since the mid 90's I have yet to see a hyd failure using what was requested from the OEM. Having no technical training in oil composition, I look to the OEM to provide the end user with what they feel comfortable recommending. If it was some obscure mix that only could be had through the dealer, like BC does, finding another route can make sense. I just don't think it does in this instance. Obviously, everyone is free to make their own choices.
Of course, we are all free to make our own decisions, unless we are working for someone else. I heartily welcome any information and expertise gleaned from thousands of hours of operation, especially on fleet maintained equipment. The small operators that put a thousand hours a year vs the quarry or fleet that has machines that look mint after 8 thousand hours and just get regular maintenance. We all look for information and knowledge. The age old oil threads of winter, are to provide entertainment and experience. I think I still have a half case of Slick 50 around. I tried the snake oils in my 20’s and 30’s and maybe into my 40’s. Now, I’m just too tired sometimes to try and be slick. I just put the oil in, you guys tell me to put in. Sometimes, I feel a little brave and use TS Premium Tractor Fluid instead of Hytrans. LOL.
Re finding the slag, drain the oil & run a magnet in the bottom of the tank, it will be there. There is no suction screen on an 1840. Edit - for what it is worth...... 15W40 engine oil has been here used on every 1840/1845C hydrostatic system I have ever worked on. Even when I was at a Case dealership when they were new! Then with HTO - now without - never had an oil related problem. In saying that, we don't deal with snow.
And IMHO indicative of a "couldn't care less" attitude on behalf of the OEM. The "one size fits all" mantra for fluids, where engine oil was used in pretty much everything apart from compartments requiring a gear oil, was ditched at least 40 years ago.
And yet it still works.
I would respectfully disagree. The fact that the OEM still continues to recommend an engine oil mixed with an additive that is no longer available in order to turn an EO into a hydraulic oil probably shows just how far they have their collective heads buried in the sand. As mentioned earlier, if anyone wants to continue using an EO, don't let fear stop you. It is simply being pointed out that advancements in oil technology over the decades since CNH first made their recommenadtion have resulted in better alternatives becoming available.
My reluctance to use oil other than what Case specified isn't about the components themselves, but the fact that the machine has only had a certain type of oil in it its whole working life. Brand new machine, never had a drop of oil in it or a completely clean/flushed/rebuilt system I'd gladly run hydraulic oil instead. However, in my experience abruptly changing the type of oil a machine runs leads to trouble, especially when you start mixing different oil types.
One thing I can tell you guys from experience: if you have fairly complicated hydraulic systems ( not just a dump truck) with bunch tiny orifices everywhere - don’t use Schafer oil. I don’t know exactly why, but that thing lines to pug orifices.
They have not recommend HTO since the 1800 series. The machines after that, to current do not require it and as stated, I don't believe its available from CASE anymore. It has been straight 10-30 since the XT series (about 1997). That said, my '24 DL550 takes HV46.
Loader Parts Source sells a lot of skid steer motors and pumps. They recommend a name brand tractor fluid. It is a 10W-30 grade unless the low temp. varient. It is often cheaper than straight hydraulic oil and has better additives for a wide variety of applications. Tractors can have pretty sophisticated hydraulics with piston pumps and other high tech. components. I used Petro Canada Duron when I replaced a wheel motor which is a premium hydro-treated oil. Shell has a popular tractor fluid as well, Spirax S4 TXM. Not sure why an OEM would recommend an oil that that would lesson the service life of their equipment? I'd think they'd like to have repeat and long term customers rather than customers upset their machines don't last as long as competitive machines.
We definitely need another "oil" thread.
OK! I might get permanently banned here, but: can anyone here tell me what a “hecking” of the super-duper-Uber component in those machines, that requires only motor oil? And why is motor oil all of the sudden is more superior in that application?!?! I know why “no zink” requirements for certain pumps and motors. Another thing: if someone didn’t know - “planned brake down points” and “planned obsolescence” it’s been new doctrine of manufacturers of any mechanical things in the world, for a few decades now. The worst industry sector for that is appliances. Electronics have that inherent, because of semi conductor molecule transferring, that’s just a nature of the beast. The second worst would be cars, although depending on brands. We don’t see Mercedes 123 d200 anymore, or Volvos 240 - that are older than dirt, bodies all rotten out even in South West - but still chugging along! They want you to buy a new product every pre-set period of time. That’s why VAG ( for example) put plastic thrust washer in to their transmissions, so the darn 096/097 or 01M or whatever they have these days - wouldn’t last “forever”, because the way they build rest of the thing - it pretty much could ( besides harness inside of the transmission). If someone wants to be naive and lie to themselves - it’s their deal!!! But that’s not what is going on this world.
Give us dumb rednecks the simplified version LOL
Simplified version is: some people who make the stuff for you - make it so that stuff will only last warranty period. That's "planned brake down point'. The "planned obsolence" is when after warranty runs out, and machine starts falling apart - you go to get parts to fix it, and parts all of the sudden not available anymore, or cost astronomical amount. So you get frustrated, and buy the whole brand new machine from them.
I'll have to ask the wife about this later.
OK. Got it!
Hey don't get yoursel in trouble VAG Group is Wolksvagen/Audi/Porche/Seat/Skoda.
His wifes a lucky gal if she has any wear on the thrust washer
I don't know if that pertains to an 1840-45C skid steer. Probably one of the longest lasting skid steer product lines that has been yet made. The 10-30 motor oil in the hyd system concept in those machines has lasted for decades and countless hours. They certainly didn't use it so it would fail after warranty.
Comes to mind that in the early years of skid loaders they liked to use atf in them. What ever wqs wrong with that and they lasted as long as the machine was usable atleast as far as i know. Plus it was easy to source. When I was needimg oil for my little skid loader that calls out 10 30 all i could buy local was quarts. Then it got mobil 424 in it.
I've never said they did, my comment was about "why would they". That machine was produced before this new concept got widely used
There is nothing wrong with ATF either. That's the whole purpose of discussion. The only thing with ATF - the Urethane seals do not last with it as long as with hydraulic oil. But still lasts plenty enough.
I've got to say that for cold climates using multi-viscosity oil provides benefits in spending less time bypassing filters. That's the whole purpose of bypass - not to burst filter media when starting with cold oil.
ATF is generally considered a high end hydraulic fluid and good for a very wide temperature range. As far as the components in a machine, most come from an outside supplier like Sundstrand or Char Lynn/Eaton, etc. They would be the ones to have final say on what oil is best for their components. They certainly don't want to be giving warranty to the OEM's. Changing the oil and filters at recommended intervals is just as important (or maybe more) than using the OEM recommended oil. 10W-30 motor oil was recommended in most skid steers back in the day. There are many 1845C Case skid steers and other brands that ran for 7500+ hours using 10W-30 oil. I imagine some went over 10,000 hours. Sometimes components fail and it's not oil related too. A machine digging hard clay all the time or running breakers or mulchers is going to be harder on the components than a machine that loads topsoil at the landscape supply. OEM's consider the extreme environments their machines might work in too. Why would they recommend an oil that didn't give peak performance. It's not about planned obsolescence. It is about repeat customers though.
Not sure but there is a point to be made for major corporations wanting to make you buy new at certain intervals. If not true, we would still have the slant 6 or my wife’s last car woul have interference heads and a timing belt, that was only designed to do so many rotations before it broke. As such, 10w 30 has been in many hydraulic applications for decades and obviously works, though a HST additive in a nice alternative.
People would complain a slant 6 is too slow and under powered. There are probably many that would buy a 300-6 Ford though. Electronics and DEF is probably a bigger reason people don't keep machines as long as they used to. I don't think you'll see new machines today 40 years later still working on farms and for personal use. Fuel injection in vehicles is a good thing and pretty reliable now.
Speaking of hydrostatic oil recommendations. Case ih sprayers used some ordinary hydraulic oil for years and then suddenly the new sprayers were having major issues. They supposedly discovered that the hydraulic hoses they were now installing were reacting to the oil and coming apart and contaminating the system. So their solution was to switch to their expensive excavator hydraulic oil and the problems disappeared