Hello everyone, love this forum! I am new to welding and want to get into it and take some classes and restore and rehab some old iron I have. I am confused on some specs to look for as far as what’s needed for large equipment. If someone needed to repair Dozer blades or wheel loader buckets, what specs/ type of welder should I look for? Also, can the welder be "toned down" to use on delicate sheet metal too? can same welder typically be used on thick plate metal and sheet metal? I have access to 3 phase power and nice compressor as well, so I was thinking 3 phase welder. Can you pretty much do all things you would need to with a MIG welder and plasma cutter that one might come upon in automotive, heavy equip, and antique machine repair? I know some of these questions are lame, but I needed a place to start. Thanks
No expert here but I would want at the very least a 200 amp DC stick welder for dozer blades. You will mainly be using 7018 rods on blades and buckets. My old worn out 200 amp will barely burn 5/32" rods. You really need something to handle 3/16". You don't need a plasma cutter, just an oxy-acet torch. With a little practice you could weld steel as thin as 14 gauge with stick welders. Below that you'd want a MIG welder. Buy the MIG welder last, you may not need it. They are expensive and high maintenance.
Might want to find one that does arc gouging. I just bought a Miller big 50 diesel for 3500. 500 amp capacity stick and with a suitcase wire feed does MIG too. Engine driven though.
Thanks! So as sort of a do all I would want stick welder and an oxy-acet torch? can most things be done with these? I am confused where MIG fits in...or do people not really use MIG for the types of things I want to do? thanks
probably what I really need is welding for dummies or welding 101. I need something to gloss over that delineates pros/cons of all these different methods I was just sort of window shopping on the internet to see what the approx cost would be to get the things I need to start restorations. Certain things I am sure I wouldn't attempt as I do not want to ruin my stuff either. I figured everyone has to start somewhere
If you're just starting out, a small MIG welder is good for thinner material, and you can usually find a decent old DC stick machine for cheap if you need to weld something heavy. Since you have access to three phase you can usually find extremely good deals on big surplus welding equipment just make sure it's still supported in terms of getting it repaired should you have an issue, there are some orphans out there. I try to stick to Lincoln or Miller when buying used. MIG welding on heavier material is faster and once you learn how to make good strong welds with it, easier in most cases. It's just all around more expensive to get set up and keep going. More suited for fabrication and extensive repairs, less tolerant of rust and paint on repairs. With stick welding for instance you can usually buy the type and size of rod you need in small containers or by the pound at your local store and if you're just learning how to weld is probably a better choice to start out with.
Everyone starts out stick welding and you need to be real competent with that before going to the expense of a big Mig unit. There are small mig units that are powered by 120 volts that you can plug into household plugs for sheet metal and they are cheap. What you have to remember with them is that they won't do anything heavy for very long. You could start out on one of these but I don't recommend it until you understand and become competent with stick. The cutting torch is also a skill you should be real competent with before shopping for a plasma cutter. Most community colleges have programs with highly capable instructors that will get you started out right. They will cost you some money but consider it an investment in future returns with your skill sets.
John has he right idea in my opinion. There are lots of community adult education programs for little to no expense. Ours is held at the local high school with a very qualified instructor. I would start with one of these and go from there. You will get the basics and also some good info on machines and learn which ones have good support in your area. Good luck and keep us posted.
Thanks guys! So if I did want to buy new, quality stuff...how much would you guess it costs to get started with stick and cutting torch set-up? Some of the things I need to fix I think might be easy for people who know how to weld. For instance, I have old skid steer I am going to blast and repaint. However, there always seem to be people out there who feel need to drill stuff, etc etc...so is it pretty easy to weld fill a drilled hole in steel and then grind it flush, prime, and paint so no one would ever know? sort of like bondo patch, but I did not want to do that. Thats just one example. I am limited on what I can expect of myself because I also do not want to jack up the machines. If someone practiced for a month or two and took some classes and took things really slow on their machines, is it highly likely they will screw something up they regret? I am going to go look at websites now. Should I basically buy Lincoln or Miller? I try my best to buy American USA made stuff...I assume both these are USA? I am in the Denver area and I already know of a place for classes. thanks again!
Troll your local welding shops, don't be in a hurry to buy, let them know you're looking for an older DC stick machine in good shape. Keep an eye on Craigslist also, for a stick welder you're almost always better off buying a twenty year old unit in good condition, they were built better than the new ones. Same with the torch, Craigslist is good, or buy one of the better knockoff brand kits from a local welding shop. Pawn shops are another option, I picked up a decent millermatic 180 at one a while back for a good price, lucked out it worked flawlessly.
One thing that is very important to remember is that when you weld on equipment insure you secure your ground cable close to the weld area and make sure that you are not letting the weld current travel thru any bearings or pins. I normally grind a spot clean where I attach the clamp. Bearing do not like arc spittles on them. Some folks disconnect the batteries also but lots of different ideas on that.
If you'd consider an older three phase welder, they're so cheap that parts support doesn't matter. There are lots of brands besides lincoln and miller that made good welders back in the day. It doesn't take much looking to find a working welder that you can sell for scrap if it dies on you and lose less than $100 and the time you have invested. Plus, if it's lasted decades in an industrial setting, do you really think you're going to kill it restoring a skid steer? If you want to go new, wait until you're through the class and ask the instructor if you haven't figured out a preference by then.
That's a great idea! I actually do like older, quality, American made stuff. I sometimes like usable vintage tools. I like to know the history. I bought some Husky C-clamps because I needed something quick but never used them and brought them back and ended up buying a bunch of various C-clamps on Ebay! They are awesome. I needed a huge LB wire pull box for my garage electrical and found a really nice vintage Aluminum USA box that was never used on Ebay! I got an old Clausing drill press. An old Greenerd arbor press So I like that idea. Wouldn't a welder sort of be like one of those things that either works or it does not? And if it works, the quality of weld would be in the user and not machine? Does a modern machine allow for any better weld?? Or not really? With that being said, what are some brands of older ones I should search for? Someone left a welder at my place when I bought it...I am going to go investigate model and specs and post it here and maybe you can tell me what you think of it.
How do you make sure current does not travel through bearings etc? Just by virtue of proximity of ground?
Staying true to classic iron restoration, are most welds on machines basically stick welds? I guess most are automated robot welds depending on era, but I guess my question is...is proficiency with stick welding all I really need at this time based on my needs? or technically, if someone had lots of welding on old machines, is MIG preferable? Does this stay true to heritage? One of the things I have is Case W9 Terraload'R. I love this machine and cannot wait to do full restoration. Year is 1959 I believe...just prior to Terraload'R designation being dropped.
Make sure the ground is on the same piece the welding is taking place on. For example if you were going to weld on the bucket and secured the ground to the loader arm the current would pass thru the bucket pins and bushings. Put the ground on the bucket so the current travel is only on solid metal with no joints. Worse would be welding on the chassis and having the ground on an axle or something like that so the current passed thru the drivetrain usually arcing in bearings. I really like the older stick machines. I believe the windings are much heavier. I have a newer quite expensive AC/DC machine that is not worth a crap. I prefur the old tombstone welders many times over.
My Dad still has a late 50's era Lincoln came off a bridge building field setup, 450 amp 100% duty cycle if I recall right on single phase with selenium rectifiers... huge old thing literally weighs half a ton. I can still fire it up and run 3/16 7018 like it's butter if he needs something glued together, they really built them back then. It also has a special low range, 3/32 modified stainless loves it. I'm too shaky to weld with 1/16" anymore, lol. A CV power supply for MIG welding I wouldn't go too old or too obscure, the newer ones are more forgiving to dial in and you can't get circuit boards for many of the old ones, Linde, Hobart, etc.... just do some homework before laying out cash.
Mig welding has been used in production for many years now. I can't remember the last time I saw a machine that had factory stick welding, maybe a 1940s era Eimco mucker? Let's summarise the pros and cons for your situation; Mig pros. Can weld any thickness of steel you will need. Factory looking welds. Relatively easy to learn. Fast. Mig cons. Expensive to buy and run. Not tolerant of dirt and rust. Stick pros. Can weld any thickness of steel you will need. Cheap. Capable of welding over a little dirt and paint in a real world situation. (But you should still get the work as clean as possible for best results) Stick cons. Harder to learn. Takes more practise to get a good looking weld. Non factory appearance. Not bad looking, just different. Slower than mig.
what do you guys think of this one. I inherited it with property. Not sure if it works, but I believe it does.
I started out with a Lincoln AC/DC 225 amp machine . Mine is a 1983 model . Damn.......... Time sure fly's fast ! Still works great . Been a good earner over the years . Welded everything under the sun with that machine , best part about it is it cant talk . Built the FWD truck with it . LOL ! http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?51-Fwd-Trucks http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200435113_200435113 Torch set up ..... http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_9049_9049 Good luck with the welding mx_599 .
Is that a Forney? It's beautiful whatever it is. That should get you started, just match the size of the rod and amperage (which holes) to the thickness of the material, and don't expect the old rod to weld like new stuff. Save it for building up a bucket or something less demanding. If you can read the numbers off the rods or packages then you can look up how the handle and what they're for.
About the only thing that ever fails on those old AC units is the power switch. AC is a little harder to weld with and the rod selection is limited, but it will work well for starting out, when you use 7018 rod, referred to as low hydrogen or LO-HY in some circles, buy a five pound box or tube of 7018AC in the size you need. 300 Amp continuous duty for one hour output is crazy, will run bigger rod then you will ever need most likely. One thing about it, if it works and you ever need to blow something steel apart, just put it on the highest tap and use some of that old rod there, it will literally blast the metal away, but be sure you're well covered as the hot metal flies everywhere!
It looks like you are all set with that welder. Plug it in and give it a try. It is better than most new ones today. I started out in 1959 with a Lincoln 180 amp tombstone. It would not run 1/8" 7018 but a 225 would. I believe the old 180 had copper windings where the newer ones were aluminum.
Awesome truck! I want one now.
I am not sure the brand. I thought the front was an "M" for "Miller"....but maybe not. I don't understand why the serial badge does not say brand. I need to investigate it more and clean it up. It looks like all the front black holes are labeled with numbers....does that mean you plug the cables into to the Amps you want? Does this mean it is not as good as a dial with unlimited graduated Amps? Or is it not that precise where you need dial selection of Amps?
I will have to update this thread in near future once I investigate this welder more. I need to get my garage done! oops, this isn't garage forums lol So it sounds like this is not the type of welder to do nicer looking welds with if I had the skill? but worth cleaning it up I gather...
Thanks! I am getting mixed messages. The vibe I get is that people feel you should learn on stick welding? I assume for fundamental skills? However, sounds like MIG is better in many aspects? If someone goes more to MIG right away and focuses on that, is it a big deal? Based on many of your Pros of MIG, I feel like that's what I should have? Also, I really want to make use of my 3 phase power if 3 phase is beneficial in the world of welding. I paid A LOT to get three phase. Based on another's comment, sounds like I should be more cautious of used MIG equipment? Why was I steered away from plasma cutting? Is main advantage of plasma more precise, less messy cutting? I do not have a money tree, but I was prepared to lay down some coin on welding stuff. I know I will like it. I will not buy stuff and then decide, "weldings not for me". I know I should take classes first...but this might not logistically fully work out. I would like to slowly learn basic fabrication skills. I take care of my stuff and would like to purchase things that may last many years. Assuming that the old welder works I posted, what would sort of be a good arsenal of welders to have or keep my eye out for? I assume each has a purpose so its not really an issue of overlapping unnecessary need? 1) old pictured stick welder 2) 3 phase MIG 3) Oxy-Acet torch 4) Plasma cutter should I maybe keep eye out for vintage 3 phase AC/DC stick welder as well? Also, thanks to everyone who have chimed in!
The big M is Marquette. In my opinion you should learn to stick weld first to learn to run out slag and make good fusion to the parent metal. Once you are proficient at that then move on to mig welding. I have seen guys who could weld great with mig, but was a lost ball intall weeds trying to stick weld. As far as cutting steel, I use oxy. propane for everything, cuts cleaner and propane is really easy to get.
I would purchase a good miller mig welder and a plasma cutter of course a torch is a must have there is not much carry over from stick to wirefeed so there is no reason to "learn" on a stick welder they have there place I wouldn't go 3 phase either it puts you into industrial class welders there is no reason to be there If you really want to see what you might need find your miller rep and stop by a few smaller repair welding shops to shoot the breeze
The big advantage of three phase is that there is typically a lot more power available. That 48 amp input welder is as big as allowed by most utilities on a residential service. Three phase at 480 volts just has a lot more power available to run a big welder. Some of the new light inverter welders will run on different voltages/phases, but with less power on single phase, 200 amps instead of 300 for instance. Stick vs MIG are different, like Ford vs Evinrude. Typically every farmer or small shop uses a stick welder the most, and fabricators (new material) use MIG. If you prefer MIG then by all means go for it. To me the choice would be between a vintage machine and something like the Invertec that somebody else recommended. I bought a V300 with an LN10 feeder and HF starter and TIG torch, surplus from a tech school for just over a grand. It works beautifully, but then I still use the tombstone, or Forney more often. The plug in amps selection works fine, lot less to break. Many of the "dial" machines aren't infinitely variable, they have far fewer 'steps" than yours does. I'll second propane cutting saving a little hassle if you're only cutting with it, or heating, maybe brazing? "unnecessary need?" :lmao Your old welder and a cutting torch will do pretty much anything you need to do, the rest are for the fun of it.
I think I identified my welder! is there a company called M id-States? look how close it matches mine?? Am I allowed to post an ebay link to show you guys?? I have a question about the ad and photos but I don't want to violate forum rules or something here is photo if I cannot post ebay link. What is the attachment on top? the rest is exact match to mine.
oops, I was typing fast. Sorry that did not make much sense when a read it a second time
My wife says- unnecessary need I says- necessary need
I'm betting that unit on top was the optional rectifier unit to make it a DC welder, note the red and black sockets? You plug he short leads into the welder below, and your work leads into the red and black sockets.
I think that is a battery charging attachment for the welder, probably a copper oxide rectifier or a tube type, rectigon maybe? I think it is a Mid States, for some reason Marquette just came to mind.
There are more pictures for you guys to figure it out if you search mid states welder on ebay, I think. I almost want to buy it so between both them I am sure they would work and I would have many spare parts. Is the top piece al9ne worth it? Are these things valuable or not really? This person is in Idaho and I am in Denver. ..shipping not cheap. If any of you guys have time to look at it I would be curious what you think. It's near identical to mine but I do not have the above piece
Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole, to use an expression from that era. Unless you want to start collecting this stuff. Price is ridiculous. That unit apparently is neither of the suggestions previously made, it would seem to be some sort of early high frequency unit to help start the arc. https://books.google.com/books?id=A...q=Missing Link Hy-Cycle Automatic Arc&f=false You're much better off looking for some good used local equipment. As an example I have a GE AC stick welder that is most likely older than me, that I will never sell, but haven't used in probably twenty years.
If your aim was simply to restore an old machine in a workshop and nothing else, then get a 300amp mig. On the other hand, if you want to learn the skills to become a good all round hobbyist welder, you should start with stick. Because stick is a slower process you can watch the arc, control it, see how subtle changes in your rod angle change the way it interacts with the work, learn what happens when you're welding dissimilar thicknesses of metal, learn to control the arc length and what difference it makes, lose yourself in the moment, get the feeling of elation when you slag off and it falls away in one piece for the first time. Have you read Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance? If you want to find God, you will find him living inside that old metal box in your garage.
Cmark, that was poetry. Odd, or perhaps not, how many of us that love all things metal and mechanical are so often poets and artists at heart, we just express it more through our hands than with pen or paint. :salute
Be careful what you wish for bro as most of us will get it . We keep it pretty simple . Just used scrap steel we had laying around to build the truck for the most part . plug in your rig & burn a few weld beads . Be very careful ! As you may get to like it a little to much .