Hi Guys, I have a tough one for you. My basement is kinda wet, especially this time of year. Unfortunately, the house was built before drainage membrane was invented. It needs it bad, and after digging the foundation up by hand a couple times, adding lots of stone and tile, the basement is still wet. It needs drainage membrane. The complicating factor is the deck that runs the whole length of the wet wall. Is there any way at all to excavate down to footing, exposing the wall, without removing the deck? I'm open to any ideas at all. The wall is your typical 8' basement wall, with about 5-6' of it below grade. The deck is bolted on at the top of the wall with the first row of posts about 6' from the wall. Deck is typical 2x8 pressure treated joists, 5/4 deck planks. http://www.superseal.ca/dimpledmembrane.html Ken :beatsme
is the basement below the water table? digging down could mean pumping equipment might be required
Remove the concrete floor about 3 feet from foundation wall in your basement. Dig down app. 2 feet install a foot of 3/4 inch stone place 4 inch perforated plastic pipe, holes down, install a plastic sump container with the pipe connected to it, fill with the remaining stone to the bottom of concrete floor, pour new floor. Install a sump pump piped outside and your good. Might sound like alot of work, but it will be worth it.
How big is the deck? - How long is the section that´s bolted to the house? What is the elevation of the deck in relation to the basement wall and footing? I´m guessing you will have 7-8' of vertical clearance once you´re down at the footing drain level. It will be tight with those deck footings being 6´off the house, but once you dig down to the footing, can you get your 275 under there? It´s a lot of material to move. You could go in there with a 1 ton mini. You´d be moving less spoil and you could stockpile it under the deck...mostly. If you do end up adding the membrane, I recommend sealing and insulating the foundation at the same time. This is an excellent system: http://www.tremcobarriersolutions.com/products/default.asp?id=1 . Adding the sealer and the insulation gives you much more protection than just the membrane alone. If their system is not available, you can apply any good foundation sealer and use compressed rockwool panels. Sump pump systems are good, but they´re are useless when there´s a power failure. IMO they are only to be used when you a gravity drain is impossible to install. Just thinking out loud...a backhoe with extend-a-hoe combined with a good operator and a lot of repositioning and an equal amount of patience can reach under pretty far.
All good thoughts. What i was hoping for was a smaller version of this. http://www.flickr.com/photos/shinnygogo/364455/
or a homeowner version of this http://www.granddistraction.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/tbm.jpg
You said that the "wet wall" had a deck running the length of it. Does this deck wrap around the sides? If not I would use a small skid to dig parallel to the "wet wall", right next to it. You said that you have 6' between the deck piers and the "wet wall". Are the deck pier footings as deep as the "wet wall" footings? If they are, and you have room to stock pile the spoils, digging with the skid would work. I don't think you would have enough room to operate a mini under there. If the skid is too big than you could try a mini track loader (like a Dingo or Bobcat MT). This would take a while but it would keep things narrow. Before I went to those extremes I would try chemical concrete sealers. I have heard good things about Xypex. It reacts to water sealing the concrete more each time it's exposed to water. It can be applied to the INSIDE of the foundation wall. The concrete soaks it in and it seals better over time. Here's a link: http://www.xypex.com/ Good luck
You could use a horizontal boring machine to push a perferated casing next to the wall. I would bet it will cost more than digging it with a skid steer.
It would be different if the deck needed replacing. Then, yeah, pull the deck off and have at 'er. The space under the deck is enough for a fat guy to get under it and crawl along on his belly. Don't ask how i know that, its a sore spot for me! Not much space under there. And then, even if you could get under there to excavate, backfilling is another issue.
Could you post a few pictures of the deck and wet wall? Is the basement wall just damp or is there water coming through it and puddling on the basement floor? As was asked by DGODGR, do you know how deep the deck footings are? If they are as deep as the basement wall footings then that could be easier digging, with proper shoring of the deck. You could excavate from the basement wall to the deck footings, then come in perpendicular to the deck to slope down to the basement wall. It would involve moving more material but would be safer in the long run if you decide to go at this problem from the outside. What I would not do is get a small skid and dig a 4' wide area out next to the basement wall, 6-8' deep in wet soil, that could be your grave.:cool2 The concrete sealers that work from the inside, maybe coupled with an interior drain line and sump may be your best option.
dodger, yeah the deck wraps around both ends, and is about 6' wide at its narrowest. 20 or 30 feet other places. Actually a tram loader is what i need. Dig in front, and dump behind without turning around. I like the narrow trackloader idea. That would work. I do have lots of stockpile room. How do i put the spoils back in after the wall is fixed? Ken
Here you go, one of these two will take care of room issues, you're guaranteed not to break the wall or deck supports while operating, and by the time you get done, the fat guy who can get under the deck now will be a skinny guy! :roll Also, if you can dig down to the footing drains around the house is there any pipe that runs off and daylights or goes into a drain away from the house? If there isn't then I'd lay some perforated along that back wall and then a solid line off that to wherever it needs to go to drain. http://www.lowes.com/pd_43178-302-1...t=shovel&pl=1¤tURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=shovel http://www.lowes.com/pd_126-302-154...l&pl=1¤tURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=shovel&page=2
I would take it back with the same machine. Use a jumping jack or a Wacker RT 820 trench roller or big V-plate (depending on the soil type) to compact it in lifts. This can be done until the compactor no longer fits under the deck. If it's that important to get it tight, right to the very top, then you could pull some deck planks so that the jumping jack could work between the stringers. If the J-jack is to wide you could use a pnuematic compactor (or powder puff as we always called them) to finish up. If you pull the planks you may also be able to place fill through there as well, provided that you have a mchine that can reach that far. Otherwise, I would suggest filling in sections. Start at the opposite end, of where you are accessing with the trench, and fill a ten foot section as high as you can. Once the fill gets high enough to limit the machines access you just may have to shovel the rest. That's why the sections....so you won't have to shovel very far. Another option would be to fill the whole thing up with screened rock. IMO this would best be done by removing some deck planks. I would use a crane (it doesn't have to be that big) and a 1 yard concrete hopper. Use your skid to load the hopper with screened rock. The crane places the hopper over the fill. Someone needs to pull the lever to dump the rock. Repeat until it's all filled up. Using a perfect technique for this would still require a V-plate to compact in lifts. I would not be too worried about settling myself. If it did you could add dirt with 5 gallon buckets later on (from under the deck). Use filter fabric to cover the rock and put 12-18" of dirt on top. You can get away with dirt, through the hopper, if it's dry. You may have to unclogg it from time to time.
I agree, if you remove the spoil with a skid loader, put it back with a skid loader. Seeing as how this is under a deck, compaction isn´t an issue. Tamp it with the bucket and leave it 8-12'' higher than grade when finished. Over time it will settle. If you´re picky about it, you can go back to it in a year and rake it out. You could also us a conveyor to put the spoil back.
Call Mike Holmes from Holmes On Homes!
had a couple ideas....probably far fetched but never know... what if you could get like a trencher to dig down? another option...not sure how far apart your house to the next but if its wide enough could you get a high reach excavator to come in from each side and if you removed some of the planks on the deck and dig through between the cross members? that way you would be able to dig out the wall and move the soil back a fair distance? good luck however you get it done!
call the local excavation contracter to come and have a look. :stirthepot:stirthepot:stirthepot sounds way to complicated, how bout a few fotos? :usa:usa:usa
Call asewer TV or Manhole Rehab Company they have sealers that can be injected though the wall. May be worth a try otherwise you have to lower the water table outside.
Cut the concrete floor in the basement along the perimeter on the inside of the foundation, dig down & try to get below the foundation also. Install a 4" perf. tile and backfill completly with 3/4" clean rock and then repour the floor cut back to match the existing concrete. If you have outside foundation drain, route it into the sump pump also by digging under the foundation. Install a sump pump and pit at a corner if possible and discharg it to the curb or other suitable discharge location- away from the house so it will drain away good. Your problem will go away then.
Exactly what JBGASH said. It's a lot of work, but easier solution and you know your problems cured after it's done.
X3 I can't believe some of you are suggesting undermining the deck. I would cut the deck or disassemble it into section and move it before that.
Did you miss the part where he asked if it could be done without moving the deck?
he is going to have to remove the deck......it is what is going to have to happen if he wants to fix it right. sometimes the answer you want is not the right choice.
I have been fixing wet basements for 30 years. Forget the skid steers or mini loaders. Most basement walls will not withstand pressure from machinery operated directly agianst. also wet soil will probably get you stuck and then real problems start. The first answer was very acurate and the comment about sumps failing when power is lost is true. However power failure is very short term and seepage from outside is normally less then capacity of drain system during outage. the old antage of do it right the first time will save you money in the long run and possibly your life. REMOVE THE DECK!!!. If you can get a small truck crane in area of work you can remove in sections in its complete form. get it completely out of the way however you do this. Then rent a offset boom mini excavator to dig the wall out being sure to slope the bank to a safe amount to prevent cave in. install drain pipe as previously said to a point of discharge . Do NOT compact soil against wall with mechanical means you will almost certainly brake your wall. allow time for settling and final grading making sure to drain any surface water or roof drains away from your basement. If water proofing membrane is not installed already DO IT being sure to clean wall and top of footing very thoughly follow manufacture instructions. There is no easy way or cheap way. Your solution will not come in a box from home supply store.
Gregory is right on with his advice and experience. Remove the deck and do it just like he said, you will never regret it. The last thing you need is a damaged wall or one that will cave in at a later date.
im gonna really stick my neck out here. im just looking at it from another perspective....i guess. but....does your property hold water? i am picturing your soil is high enough that is is not standing water getting in there, it is the actual rain/water run off that seeps through over a long rain. if that is the case......keep that area dry. build you a porch around deck. this will run the water off away from wet wall. (making it a dry wall) that is kind of expensive too but a nicely covered big deck adds value! hehe. if after the water runs off porch and goes back under towards wall just build up soil behind where the water falls to push away from house and with 6' of dry dirt i would think it would take a lot of rain to seep clear to basement wall. im sure im missing something in the original problem or someone woulda already mentioned this. but lets see................
Even with with proper grading ETC you can still get a lot of moisture. Especially up north freezing, thawing, snow melting, and ETC. I can do all kind of things that doesn't make them smart. I really expected better advice from this site on this subject. We have a bunch of experienced dirt guys and many pretty good ones at that. Undermining is just a bad idea all around.
This thread has sprouted some legs... Anyway, to add some more details, yes its meltwater. The house has an old basement section from the 1800's, and a new basement section from the late80's. The water issue is specifically at the joint where the two walls meet. To make matters worse, my father put a water cistern outside the house near this spot, and brought the evestroughs to a point directly above this same joint. To make matters worse worse, he built the deck before the basement backfill was settled, which has left a completely inaccessible sunken area right up against the wall, above this joint. When i was younger and more ambitious, father and i actually dug the joint out twice (with shovels working under the deck) , brought the footing tile up along the wall, and filled the area with 3/4 clear. As much as the water goes down into the stone, and tile, it still seeps pretty quick through the joint as well. The basement is finished, and when the snow melts or it rains really hard, i get some water in there, maybe a little wet carpet. The other day was the worse i ever seen. This time of year is really risky because the sump pump discharge lines are frozen, but the snow is melting fast. Anyway, i had a brainstorm this afternoon, i wonder if i could lift the deck planks and use one of those vacuum suction trucks to excavate the soil away from the wall down to the footing. Then i could put my membrane on, and do it up proper, then backfill and compact, and reinstall the decking. That could work, no?
Here are two quotes from Mike Holmes about wet basements. Holmes on Homes. Seems like a combination of both controls would work for you. The simplest thing you can do to keep water out of your basement is to control it at the surface. Surface water, like rain or melting snow, or water from irrigation, is pretty easy to control, compared to water below grade. There's not much you can do about underground streams, or the water table in your area and the resulting hydrostatic pressure on your foundation. But there's a lot you can do on the surface. Most of the problems homeowners have with wet basements can be prevented if people correct the grade around their home. Make sure that surface water doesn't become groundwater and add to the pressure that's already down there. Superseal dimpled membrane This is the best solution I know of to prevent water infiltration in a basement. You've probably seen rolls of this dimpled membrane in building stores. It gets rolled out against the exterior foundation wall, and then is mechanically fastened to it. After backfilling, the membrane makes sure that ground water will never be in contact with the foundation wall. The membrane is impermeable to water and water vapour and it eliminates hydrostatic pressure buildup. The dimples in the membrane create an air gap at the foundation wall, which allows the wall to "breathe." And any ground water that gets past the membrane will drain to the footings and be taken away by the weeping tiles. No hydrostatic pressure can build up.
That sounds about right timmy
Watglen,I still haven't heard from you if and/ or where your footing drains lead out to.You mentioned above that water perks quickly but then starts coming inside.I've been in the residential waterproofing biz for 37 years only correcting the problem from the outside,the source of 99% of all water intrusion.From what I hear,it appears to me without of course being there that you have a whole bunch of problems going on,the biggest one is that damn deck which is probably going to cause this job from being done correctly.The logistics of working around that deck are too great to overcome IMHO.I would completely remove that deck--ALL of it as painful as this may appear it will only bite you in the azz if you don't.With that negative grading under the deck letting water come right against the wall,in time this wall will buckle [if it hasn't already,you might not notice it if your inside is finished] and possibly collapse. Now--excavate down to whatever elevation you need to be at so that you have 2-3'' of CLEAN stone under your 4''[6'' if warranted] perforated white S+D pipe [DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER THE BLACK SLINKY CRAP--IF YOU DO,I'LL HAVE MY INDIAN FRIEND BY YOU DO THEIR TRIBAL RAIN DANCE SO IT RAINS ONLY OVER YOUR YARD] AND have it so that the holes[WRITING ON PIPE SHOULD BE STRAIGHT UP--HOLES WILL BE ON BOTTOM] are app.2''-3'' below the top of your finished basement floor.This is critical as you want to intercept not only wall water but also water that wants to migrate under your slab.Most builders always get this wrong---GREAT job security for me. If you're in standing water at this elevation,I should have mentioned to start at the discharge point with your solid 4'' or 6'' S+D pipe so you're working like a gentleman,letting the water drain out as you go.Just be careful regarding silting in your pipe by placing some fabric cloth on your open pipe.Waterproof your wall after you clean it by whatever means you want,there's literally hundreds of ways to do it,just make sure it's waterproofing your doing,NOT water resisting[such as the $7 per hr. kid slopping brush-on asphalt on only].Minimum of 12'' of again CLEAN 3/4''-1'' stone above the top of the pipe,filter fabric over the stone and backfill with at least a 2' minimum against the wall of a granular material such as bank run gravel.Do a rough grade for a positive pitch.Let it settle after 2-3 SOAKING rains and final grade-positive pitch. Any questions--feel free to PM me. Good luck. Oh---tell the wife I said it's OK for the deck to be removed. Lol.
I have a cinder block basement where the blocks were filling with water-causing water intrusion around the floor and first layers of blocks. I drilled holes at a 45 degree angle from the inside of the block to the outside of the block. (1 hole every six feet in the affected areas). This directed all the water to my exterior drain tubes. The basement is absolutely dry now.
This was a lot easier and faster than installing an interior drain tubing system. This worked as my exterior drain tubing is still in good working condition, but water was still penetrating the cinder blocks.