If you have watched the news in the last couple of days you are aware of the big 3 problems. They are looking for 25 billion from the tax payers to stay afloat. They fly in on the private jets and ask for money What do you guys think? who will be gone GM, Ford, Dodge? IMO as much as it hurts let the market fix itself, these guys have been behind Japan for a long time, the unions have run the big 3 for a long time, who next with their hand out, airlines, construction, maybe big oil. IMO I think that because the oil companies have made the most from the auto guys maybe they should give them 25 billion. Taxpayers give them 25 billion it will be 100 billion.
That's a ponit I cant dissagree with.
I agree with you also, let them sort it out on their own. For the last 10+ years, Ford, GM, Chrysler have all made big $$$ on their truck and SUV sales despite oil/gas prices creeping higher. Toyota, Honda, Nissan all continued to produce thier small-mid sized cars along with a couple small SUV's and a truck or two to compliment their line-ups and offer a competitive vehicle in the large North American market. Now, after outrageous gas prices have all but eliminated the sales of trucks and SUV's for "family/personal" use, and lease returns are at an all-time high the "Big 3" are facing real hard times. They can't sell the thousands of trucks/SUV's they got on their lots, and they can't move their used lease returns that aren't worth their buy-outs. They must continue to pay their union workers, and re-new contracts (increased wages/benefits) despite producing vehicles that (generally) don't come off the line with the same quality that the Japanese manufacturers produce from their plants here in North America. There have been a lot of farm and construction manufacturers who couldn't hold-on, and had to close after years of production without any government bail-outs. There are lots of small and large construction/excavating company's out there today that are having to sell-out and close with no government assistance. And what will guarantee that if bailed-out, the "Big 3" will keep plants open in North America anyways ?? Ford just opened their big plant in Brazil this summer, and Dodge have been making trucks in Mexico, so what prevents them from being handed our money only to close and eliminate North American manufacturing jobs to stretch their dollar out further by having cheaper plants/labour in South America ? What really gets to me, is despite all this, when you watch football on Sundays, all you see are ads for the new Dodge Ram, Ford F-150, and Chevy Silverado pick-ups. The mentality hasn't seemed to have changed still....instead of trying to get incentive programs and encourage customers to buy the smaller, more fuel friendly vehicles, they continue to push the largest vehicles on their product lines..... Best of luck to them, but if we got to vote, none of my tax $$$ would be bailing them out.
Seems to me that if they cannot make enough money to stay in business, then let them go out of business. If people want to buy a car, they will just go to another auto company to buy what they want. Dozens of auto manufacturers have disapeared over the years, what makes these dinasours so important that we have to keep them going regardless of how poorly they run their companies? Eddie
On being asked about the GM plant in Janesville WI being closed one local resident said its about darn time those people who think they are worth what they are making live like the rest of us. The unions have bullied to get higher wages and more bennys. I heard one time that $4000 of every GM vechile goes to pay for the benifits of the workers and gets higher everyday. It would be a huge blow but it might wake some people up. If i were in that union I would say lets all take a $1 or more an hour pay cut(its only $40 a week and you add that up by the THOUSANDS of people that work for those unions it adds up to HUGE $$$). Would that work, i doubt it as its a easy thing to do but they won't do it and will end up being stuck with no job. Trbo
I agree with the sentiment as well. The Big 3 executives fly down on there G4's with a cost of $20K, is what I heard on the radio. A coach ticket on American was like $280 for the same flight. ointhead The private plane trip to ask for money from US (that is us plural the taxpayers) just goes to show how out of whack the executives of these large corporations are. These guys and gals are so out of touch with the real world and not just the Big 3 folks, the majority of the large corporations. But wait it is easy to bash executives and they deserve all they get but there are other parties at fault as well. The labor unions have also had a hand in destroying the Big 3 as well. The average labor burden for a production line employee is in the $75 +/- range per hour. There is no way that a company can compete when their competition is paying a little over 1/2 of that. Mercedes, Hyundai and Toyota all have assembly plants in Alabama. The average labor burden per hour for these plants is $45 +/-. On another side note - if you were an Alabama auto worker, how would you like your tax dollars going to bail out the Big 3? Take for example: You are bidding a job that has 2K CY's of undercut, haul-off and import of structural fill. The average haul time to the dump site and back to the project is 1.5 hours There are 4 bidders on the project including yourself. The other 3 bidders are paying $60 per hour for a tri-axle with no travel time. However you are required to pay $95 per hour for each tri-axle plus an hour of drive time per truck per day. Assuming loading, borrow and dump fees are the same - do you think you have a chance of getting the bid? The Infernal Government. If they bail out the Big 3 and subsidize incompetence and inefficiency, who is next like Jmac said with their hand out? Toyota, Mercedes, Caterpillar, Kobelco, Georgia Pacific, etc? All these companies have been hit hard with the current economic times and the construction slow down. It's not where you start it's where you stop. Yet somehow the other big companies have found some way to work it out because they know that they do not carry the political clout that the Big 3 and Wall Street Bankers have. At some point you have to realize that it's broke and pouring more money into it without changing the root causes of the problem only delay the inevitable and eats up alot of cash. The "bailout" money is real money that will have to be paid back. This means we, our children and our grandchildren will have a hefty bill to pay someday..... This is not intended to be a union vs non-union. The reality of the situation is there in plain view. This thread is a good topic for friendly discussion.
Have heard that the 'big 3' employ more workers in mexico, than the USA. Why don't they ask mexico for a bail out?
CM1995, you wrote I agree with you but just to be the devils advocate, I read on another post that if the the big 3 go we will be in a depression for sure, I don't agree 100% but with all the bad news from every direction what do you think, so far everyone thinks like I do?
Wonder if they would bail me out if I started paying my self $40 million a year to run my company?
Im not one for a bailout, but there are a few things to consider. Either way, we will be paying for this. Weather it is a cash loan, or paying unemployment, and failed pension plan benis. One also needs to consider the national security implications of losing this manufacturing base. Look what it did for us during wwii. To the union, yes, it is the big 3s fault for caving to the demands of the UAW. Also called "U Aint Working" by many demo guys. These morons were trying to say that they should be the ones wrecking the obsolete plants because they are auto plants. We put an end to that quickly by doing some technical work on one job. At this point in time, I personally think its best to let them file bankruptcy. A judge will then be negotiating the contracts. That being said, the last round of contracts did take care of a lot of the legacy costs of retired membership. These do not take full effect until 2010. The thing that has me worried is a lot of the money for the retired bennis that the UAW is taking over is heavily invested in the stock market. Some of you may notice this is in the crapper right now. Im worried that it will be the UAW with its hands out begging for cash next.
quick cure for this problem...each member of the UAW take 5-10K out of their retirement fund...and buy stock...ford was under $2 today, they could make it employee owned, and dictate their own wages/bennies/production/quality rates.
More New Ford's around here than the other Big 3. Dont forget: FORD is big in Europe.
I do not believe that we will be going into a depression if we lose 1 or all of the Big 3 auto makers. There are several different restructuring bankrupty options out there. They need to file bankruptcy, like some of the airlines did years ago, and let a judge and recievorship work through the root problems. There are brand names, production lines, parts warehousing, dealerships, research and engineering that all the Big 3 have. Those things all have a tangible worth to someone. If they go bankrupt and cannot restructure, it's not like they will just vanish. There are companies and investors out there that would purchase that infrastructure. Who knows Buffett may be in the car business, although he has taken some big hits here lately or GM may be a Korean company?
I have no use for the people who run the auto companies flying in private jets. That being said, I don't want our economy to go bad either, which is what I fear may happen if they fail. For years all the auto companies have been making the vehicles that people REALLY want, that is, SUVs, pickups and performance cars. When the price of fuel went up those vehicles were not such an attractive choice anymore so the bottom fell out of the market, between that and credit tightening up no one is buying a vehicle. I think that is the problem more than mismanagement. And if all those companies go under it wont be only the auto workers hurting-it will be all the small businesses (and their employees) who do business in those towns near the auto plants.
You've almost got it right, but it should be '$40 million a year to RUIN my company'... that seems to be the model for getting bailouts. srsMN
it's not soley a management issue. you take a ford taurus, and a toyota camry, the taurus having 2k more in employee bennies factored into the cost of the car than the camry. now you have to sit the camry and the taurus on the lot, and sell them for the same price? only way to do that, is take 2k worth of quality/fit/finish out of the product.
Bailouts are useless. Look what good the $700 billion did for wall street....it covered some bonuses and luncheons, other than that it only put the US Treasury deeper in dept to China. The Dow is still heading south. Throwing money at a failing business plan is not going to help anyone.
Harry Reid, Dodd, and Nancy get to decide what is a good plan or not when the Big 3 put one up. They can't balance anything from SS to healthcare, I bet they fly around in fancy jets also, but these guys will decide what to do with tax payers money. God help us all. Give the 25 billion to big 3 and they will move plants to mexico and tax payers will be out 25 million plus, because that won't be enough and we will be out the money and the jobs.
to the best of my dulled recollections ford euro is part of the Premier auto group ,and also the ranger sold over here is actually made by mazda. If we ran our sites like the ceo have run their companies how long would we be in business and who would bail us out? A question for you "did the gov not give a handout to help them retool recently??
The Mazda pickup is actually a rebadged Ranger, one of the rare cases where a Japanese company contracted with an American company to produce a vehicle for them.
Well Well I thought Ford was Ford. Best selling Vehicles in europe for decade's 16.5% Market share which is huge really. Mazda also have a rebadged Toyota Hi-Lux pick running around europe.
No goverment bailout, if you bail them out that is communism and I thought that was a bad word.:usa
This isn't a big 3 bail out its a UAW bail out the Dems can't lose that voting block. I bet GM and Ford for sure are a ways from going under filing bankruptcy maybe but not gone. I will have a hard time buying another vehicle from the big 3 after they get this bail out and they will get it. I'm a die hard GM guy, but this is BS. Of coarse after the gov. get done with all the mandate they will impose on the big with this bail out they may no longer make anything I want to buy. I did hear though, that the gov. was going to give the big 3 $25bill to help further develop "green" cars. Maybe this is there way of getting the $$$$ and not have to spend it all on R&D.
Auto Industry woes ? I think the NAFTA and WTO agreements have a lot more to do with this calamity,via the Global Free Trade philosophy espoused by politicos than any other idea. Tearing down America , to bring up the 3rd world Nations, to equality , is Marxist Socialism on a Global scale. This Nations industry has fled to , Mexico,South America,Asia, China. What's left to exploit, ??? Africa ?? All chasing cheaper labor . Maybe Sudan , Somalia where the really impoverished live. Maybe the shipping and oil tanker owners , would not have to subsidize the pirates, via ransoms. If these people had jobs. Help calm those waters . Just some thoughts.
I agree 100% :usa
Ford Ranger is a name used on two distinct compact pickup truck lines by the Ford Motor Company and by a marketing arrangement with Mazda. * A Ford-designed compact pickup truck, which is sold in North America as well as markets in South America like Brazil, Chile, Venezuela and Argentina. It is also currently marketed as the Mazda B-Series (North America) by Mazda dealers. It is built currently in St. Paul, Minnesota. * A Mazda-designed compact pickup known as Mazda B-Series (International)) sold in more than 130 countries, and also sold with a Ford Ranger nameplate.
I agree also, not only are foreign cars stealing the market, they are produced here! What a crock, all our money ends up overseas. Domestic auto makers have made their share of mistakes and don't seem to learn by them, a bailout won't fix it, we need to get to the cause of the problem like Iacocca (sp) did for Chrysler in the 70's. I hate to see my country crumbling!
As per FNC on Thursday: The purpose (60% of allocated funds) of the "bailout" is to supplement the current workforce of 3.26 million UAW and the 1.13 million retirees benefit and life medical packages.It has nothing to do with production intent.When the price of gas went up the auto makers scaled back production of "fueled" vehicles and increased production of "green" vehicles.Maybe this did not happen in NY were you live but it was evident in other states. I do not know if you are a Union Brother or not,but if you put yourself in the UAW position, would you prefer to have someone fighting for your retirement and medical packages that your time built and secured or would you rather let them stand by and do nothing while others are receiving a great deal more and doing less with it ? If AIG can receive a total of $150 Billion,and take $ 500 Million of that and disperse it to their top 12 Executives to offset their salaries so that under the new income tax rate schedules they do not go into a higher tax bracket, why can't the UAW ask for $25 Billion and disperse it to 4.39 million Brothers & Sisters?
Bill in Tx, I will preface my question to you by saying that I am a card-carrying union member. I understand your point(s), and understand "why" the UAW/Big 3 is after this bailout. However, why should my (and everyone else's) tax dollars go to bailout/aid/assist any non-government, privately owned business ?? What happens when McAninch Construction (for example only) goes to their State Rep. or government and says; "We need some bail-out money or we'll have to downsize and/or close" ? I'll tell you what, McAninch will be closing it's doors....period. Why should any of the "Big 3" be treated any differently ?
I agree, it will hurt our economy in the short run but we'll be better off for the future. If these companies have to survive extemely hard times without aid I think it will be a valuable lesson learned for future business. Personally I don't believe all the gloom and doom the media reports, I think the main reason were unable to cope with this historically standard recessionary cycle is because we came off such an artificial high from the past five years. Getting backed into a corner is a good reason for people to change bad habits, life will go on and america will thrive again. :thumbsup
Some mis-understanding here. The automakers are looking for a bridge LOAN. It is not a bailout per se. Chrysler received one back in the seventies, they repaid it early -- with interest. Domestic automakers are playing in a game with a stacked deck. Foreign automakers enjoy enormous government intervention, everything from subsidized health care for workers, to high tariffs on imports of foreign autos. One example; we can sell less than 5000 vehicles a year in Korea. They sell well over 50,000 here. I see much talk against the UAW, which I regard as mostly jealousy. Not to say that UAW needs to wake up in new world reality, and it's coming. But the UAW does not design, engineer, or direct the automakers products. They just put them together. One needs to remember the lead time on new products. It's not just a matter of slapping them together. A lot of testing and redesign has to be done by the makers first. There are then months and years of government mandated tests that have to be done first, economy, emissions, and crash. Those tests cost a lot of money. Main reason our automakers are in trouble right now is the credit fiasco that the wheeler-dealers made of the real estate markets. It's very, very difficult to get credit right now for anything as some here on the forum have also reported, let alone a new auto. And, the media, again, have everyone running scared, sorta like chicken little. This came on exceptionally fast. No one was predicting it in July this year, other than in the housing sector. Our administration and congress sure as hell didn't see it coming. Just for the record, I didn't either. Remember that American automakers offer far more cars that obtain more than 30 miles per gallon than the foreign competition. American SUV's and pickups are more fuel efficient than any of the same models built by foreign manufacturers. And let's not forget, American buyers have had an extremely wide choice of vehicles to buy for the last thirty years, many chose SUV's and pickups. I did, because I both wanted the bigger vehicles, and I could afford them as well. I've never had any particular quality problems with an American manufactured vehicle, not enough that I would even think to consider buying one of foreign make. No one here is made to buy anything they don't like, but people still bought many millions of American designed and built vehicles none the less. I can not say that American auto manufacturers need to pare down their staffs and other personnel. Likely they do. It's a given that executive perks needs to be cut out and salaries cut significantly. I'm naturally prejudiced. I'm from Michigan, and I have relatives working in the auto industry. I have also always known that if I bought American made products, I was helping my neighbor, the guy across the street, the tire shop fella three blocks over, and all other Americans. I did my best to avoid buying foreign products, because I never believed in the global economy (neither did Ross Perot) and we are now seeing the result of ignorance in our government, and in our domestic business models in opening up what they called free trade, but which is actually only a one-way trade street for us, and we are traveling against traffic. Also remember that there is a hell of a lot of research and development work going on in the big 3 right now. The Chev Volt for example. The foreign manufacturers are not anywhere ahead of the R&D being done here. But if our manufacturers go bankrupt or out of business, we lose in the R&D competition. We also lose in pure and simple manufacturing. We can not become a nation of simple consumers that do not produce much of value besides sub-prime mortgages and insurance policies. Last but not least, remember that our congress and current administration live in glass houses. They have large salaries and very generous benefits including lifetime pensions. They do not contribute to social security and their health care is largely paid for on our nickel. Speaker Pelosi has the private use of a government aircraft to fly back and forth to California whenever she pleases. So what are these folks going to give up? They are demanding a lot considering the fact that they are, to a large extent, responsible for our troubles. We voted for these folks. Walt Kelly's "POGO," said it best, "We has met the enemy, and they is us."
Bill, either you misunderstood what I wrote or you are twisting the meaning around completely. :beatsme I was saying no one is selling vehicles because of fuel prices and the economy, more than because of anything that goes on in the auto factories. I was saying maybe the bailout IS worth considering. For me it has absolutely nothing to do with unionism, because I don't like seeing industries close and people lose their jobs regardless of whether they belong to a union or not. I felt the same way about the financial bailout. I am concerned if those companies fail it will hurt our entire economy. I think I will give this topic a rest now.
G,day Joe....I'm wondering if you could expand on that a little because its not really the case down here. I'm thinking of the F250 in particular which is about the most inefficient vehicle of its size on our market. For about $10k less I can buy Japanese of the same size (with a factory dump body), twice the payload and 30-40% better fuel efficiency....and I also know the gearbox will do 600,000 kms before it needs attention. I'm also thinking of one example (may be pickin on just one) but that of the recent model Dodge Viper (or whatever its called now). It has an 8.3 litre engine producing 500 hp. Now if you give 8.3 litre cubic capacity to the likes of Mercedes, Bugati, BMW etc (European) they will produce nearly twice the horsepower and still do better on fuel. We have Jeep, Chrysler and Dodge vehicles coming to our car and light SUV markey which are only just starting to match the japanese for efficiency in the last 3 or 4 years. That said I believe the sales figures for these manufacturer's are improving here by the month as they now getting close to the reliability of our Japanese dominated market. The case of the american "pickup" style truck is a different matter. They have made small in-roads to plumbers and other contractors for their ability to work in the week and play on the weekend. However, in terms of competing for the work as a light truck, they just don't cut the mustard...not even close. This chiefly because of the poor fuel efficiency. I'm not picking on american by any means but I believe the american manufacturer's may have dropped the fuel efficiency ball about 10-12 years ago and now its really going to hurt them...I see Caterpillar struggling with the same issue. Maybe your government lulled them into a false sense of security when the rest of the world saw the writing on the wall many years back. Remember also the most of the developed nations in the world pay a much higher price for petroleum products than America does. I'm open for discussion.
The govt is just making the big 3 sweat. Didn't Obama tell them he'd have their backs? They may just be waiting till he takes office...:beatsme I don't doubt for a min Americans have what it takes to be competitive in the world auto market, but they still have to prove that their not selling the same ol junk. And by junk I'm referring to the lower line autos. If I could get the same quality I get out of my American made work trucks I'd be 100% supportive :usa
The German business arm of Ford is reportedly asking the European Union for an emergency loan package. I imagine you will also see overseas units of Chrysler and GM doing the same in various markets, not just the U.S. I believe congress will approve the "bailout" as politicians don't want to have these U.S. icons go under on their watch, but they want to play up to their constituents with the appearance of due diligence.
Crisis's ? Well, I remember the Race Riot's and the Anti-War Demonstrations of the '60's clearly. If any of you readers have been anywhere near, or been caught up in one, you know the power of MOBS and the unruly effects ! People in desperation will do most anything to survive. Perpetual poverty,with no hope of getting ahead, being drafted to fight in a losing and unpopular war, just to mention a few. I'm mentioning this as a prelude, to what may or might happen, is mass unemployment, leading to severe social discontent with our leaders. Mass demontrations and marches on Wash DC and Wall Street, and elsewhere. Even Riots of the kind not seen since the '60's ! This time it will be of working class people of all kinds, not restricted to race or age . Anyway, if cooler heads prevail, we'll see support for American Industry, whatever form that may be, and less of this Free Trade at the EXPENSE of American Business and Industry. We are witnessing the destruction of our American economy by this, One Way Traffic, of Free Trade, as SurferJoe so eloquently said.:usa
May I make a point here or maybe a couple of them, to the best of my knowledge constructions the largest employer in the US and here as well When I have a bit of disposable income do I not change my car or truck ,my wife buys items for the house, we may take a few days holidays , look at the other industries we support. Would our respective governments not be better employed keeping construction going
"FREE(???????????) Trade????????????????? Hi, Folks. Surfer Joe and Northart have a very definite point about FREE(????????) trade. I still can't, 30 and 40 years on, see it doing MY country any good. If my memory serves me right - and it sometimes does - there is a resolution on the U.N. books from somewhere back in the 1960's or even the late 1950's that says that all developed countries should scale down or close down their industries and help the un-developed countries to start up similar industries and then purchase from those countries to support them. To my simple mind, this gives rise to one HUGE 'kwestyunn' - - - WATTA we gonna use to pay for what we buy from them if we ain't makin' ther money in ther first place?????? Woodentitt be better to keep our industries going and strong and use our various foreign aid programs to help those poorer countries to help themselves, or at least the ones that show willing to help themselves? Maybe somebody who has more time and more internet and U.N. savvy than I could do a bit of research on that resolution. It appears to me that many of our various 'guvvermints' have taken it to heart and are increasingly selling us down the drain, not only with regard to overseas-based industries but also with in-country fiscal policy. 'Wealth re-distribution' equals the complete destruction of all incentive for any entrepreneurs to 'have a go'. But what would I know? I had to leave school at age 15 from year 10 to go out and make my own way in the world. I don't have a degree in economics, or environmentalism, or socialism, or political correctness, so I 'don't count' in the eyes of those who do have 'em. How many of them can get out in the real world and do ALL the things that I can do? Or that many of you can do? Just my 0.02.
Stock you hit the nail on the head. I was waiting on someone to bring that little aspect of the economy up. Construction is or was I haven't seen the latest numbers, the largest % of GDP in the US. (It's really the only industry that cannot be outsourced). Now construction in this country can be stimulated by tax incentives and policy change instead of real cold hard cash , like the bridge loan or bailout as I like to call it for the Big 3. One simple solution to spur construction spending - eliminate the capital gain tax on real estate both commercial and residential. We would see all sorts of new projects come along when folks start selling there old properties to develop new ones or a tax credit for rehabing existing buildings. Instead of paying the current 15% capital gains tax on say a shopping center worth $3M, the owner keeps that $450K to either spend or invest, either way that $450K stays in the economy. Remember he has been paying property taxes, income taxes, etc on the shopping center and the businesses renting spaces paid payroll taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, etc. So the shopping center has "paid it's own way" in society through the tax revenue generation. The construction industry generates sales taxes, payroll taxes, income taxes and property taxes on the completed structures. Tax incentives do not cost the gov't anything - unless you are in the group that thinks taxes are "income" to the gov't that somehow the gov't has "earned". Take for example: When Alabama was courting Mercedes for the assembly plant in Vance several years ago. The state gave approx $200M + or so in future tax incentives. Now part of the state was in uproar that "we" were "giving" $200M dollars to a forgein multi-national company. Now let's break this down: 1- This is future tax revenue the state is not recieving and will not recieve if the plant is located elsewhere. 2.- The state is not currently taking in the $200M of tax money - it will be tax revenue generated by this specific plant 3- A several 100 million dollar plant will be built in Vance and add a short term jolt to economy 4- Add several thousand good paying jobs $40 +/- per hour. 5- With employment this spreads the money around to other local folks, like Surfer Joe said. The jobs support the local stores, businesses, etc. 6 - State benefits from sales taxes on materials, fuel taxes for shipping, sales taxes at ancillary business, payroll taxes, etc Now this is an example of what can happen when the gov't leaders understand this philosophy as well. The State "gave away" something they did not have in the first place to recieve the above stated benefits of a large manufacturing plant. Higher taxes usually mean lower tax revenue , because higher taxes restrict business, thus less business is being done. Even though the taxes are higher, less tax is being collected. It's like filling up a 5 gallon bucket with water. Would you rather have one person with a 24 oz cup dumping into the bucket every hour or 6 people with 8 oz cups dumping in every hour? We all must pay taxes to support our society we live in and I have no problem with that. But I believe we are taxed to death and the gov't has their hands in way too many aspects of our lives. Although I am glad we don't get all the gov't we pay for, other wise we would need a permit to fart. ointhead
Just saw this now the brit car companies are at it Jaguar in talks over government loan Sunday, 23 November 2008 15:46 Luxury British car brands Jaguar Land Rover are in talks with the government over a possible £1 billion (€1.18bn) loan, it was reported today. The news comes just months after the firms were bought by Tata, India's biggest vehicle maker, from Ford for £1.7 billion (€2bn). It is thought Jaguar Land Rover, which employs around 15,000 workers in the UK, has been hit by the economic downturn, which has battered carmakers across the globe. Advertisement The Sunday Times reported that Prime Minister Gordon Brown was considering the proposal and an answer could be made in a couple of weeks. A spokesman for Jaguar Land Rover said the company would not comment on 'speculation on the content of confidential discussions with Government'. 'The automotive industry is facing unprecedented trading conditions as a direct fall out of the banking crisis and turbulence in financial markets and we are of course keeping government appraised of the impact on our business,' he said. Sales of Land Rover are down for this year in line with most other car firms although sales of Jaguars, helped by the success of the new Jaguar XF, have increased. Earlier this month, Jaguar Land Rover announced it would extend a voluntary redundancy scheme, which could lead to almost 600 jobs being cut across the firm's plants at Halewood on Merseyside and Solihull and Castle Bromwich in the West Midlands.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081123/pl_nm/us_usa_obama_taxes :cool2
I think they need to reorganize just like a lot of other companys need to do. But the government should say bring up your products to be competitive and the government needs to make it so cars from other countrys can not be brought it so cheap.
With all the bad news coming from every direction, it just takes the wind out of my sails. I try to ignore it and just keep plugging away, what about all us little guys? I started full tilt about 3 years ago, can't have a slow down now. All the bad news about all the big industry is one thing but don't forget about the little people, all the small companies that made the US what it is, it just pisses me off.
I think charges should be brought against the oils co's. They made more money then any U.S. company EVER!!! As a direct result of that, the rest of the country was shot into the ground. Maybe "Economic Fraud" charges.
was doing a quick service in the field. Rather than load the oil barrel up I ran by the local parts store and picked up some Rotella 15w40 in the gallons got out to the truck and looked at the bill only $14.99 a gallon suppose it will take years before everything gets back in line with oil being under $50 a barrel. Think I'll take the time to load the oil next time.
let's just hope we don't have a banner year with high profits and the rest of the country doesn't want to bring charges against us.
Maybe some Americans don't realize it, but these issues extend beyond the borders of the U.S.A. The economies of Canada, USA, and Mexico are very closely tied, and what happens in one country affects the others. We have long had agreements like the Auto Pact and NAFTA. How many millions of Americans are driving so-called "American" cars that are made in Canada or Mexico. It's a continental market and a continental problem. The big three auto makers are also lined up begging the Canadian government for money. It's been in the news up here every day. And I wouldn't be surprised if they try to get money from Mexico City and European governments. That said, I drive GMs and Fords. IMO, Japanese and European cars are highly overrated. I recently sold my Toyota 4x4 pickup and bought a 6L 3/4 ton GMC 4x4. The fuel mileage with the GMC is about the same as with the Toyota. And the load carrying capacity and parts availability are much better. Similarly, our main car is a late model V8 Ford product. The fuel mileage with it is about the same as Honda Accords that we had in the past. And it has great reliability. I would like to see the Big Three survive, but I can't see how they can compete if they can't do something about the $70 plus per hour cost that they have to pay for unskilled employees. And management has to stop flying around in those jets and reduce their take as well.
Let them go under, no one bailed out Modern Continental, one of the biggest construction companies in the country at one time, when they mismanaged their money.
I looked up modern construction, it looks like their still around, but going through bankruptcy court. They are pretty well diversified.
it is bad all over, not looking good.
Modern is gone, the bonding companies have taken over the whole company and are just finishing up all their contracts which are pretty much all done.
One of the biggest arguments for the bailout or loan, whichever you want to call it, is to save the retirees. My understanding, and I was in the Teamsters for 13 years and a shop steward for 8 years, is that the money for the pensions is administered by a seperate entity. The unions and the company has nothing to do with the pension. If the Big 3 disapeared, who manages their pensions and how would those who are retired be affected? The thing about the unions and the Big 3 that really kills me is that they pay people to not work. If you get laid off, you still get paid 80% of your working pay. If a job becomes available for you at another location, you can decline that work and conitue to receive unemployment from the company. I appreciate what the union does for protecting employees from abusive management, and how they have increased the standard of living for thier members, but there is also an unwritten rule that you don't rat each other out and you NEVER make another member look bad by doing more then they are. The DUDS set the pace and the more seniority that you have, the less you do. The company knows this, the unions know this and they all either pretend it's not going on, or that it's beyond their ablity to control. The bailout will only make it worse and that much more painful when the next time. It's only a matter of time until it happens again, and it will be that much worse when that day arrives. Cancer needs to be removed, not fed. They are feeding the cancer and it's only going to get worse. Eddie
First of all, I don't own any Japanese or European vehicles, other than an old VW. In my opinion, GM and Ford (maybe Chrysler too ) build excellent vehicles that are not adequately appreciated by those who insist on buying imports. I'll take a GMC or Ford 3/4 ton any day over a Toyota Tundra. But I have doubts about the bail out. It sounds as if the Big 3 want about 6 or 7 billion from the Canadian taxpayers, which on a per capita basis is a very heavy hit. Canada only has a population of about thirty million. As a westerner, I'm wondering where was all the help for western farmers when their grain and cattle were not worth anything for decades? Most farmers just quietly went out of business. They moved to the cities and survived as best they could. Windsor and Detroit didn't seem to care about that. Maybe it really doesn't matter if the Big 3 survive or not, as long as someone keeps making cars in North America and people have jobs. If Toyota and Honda can make vehicles here and make money doing it, let them at it. I'll just keep on buying used Chevys. A big new Japanese based plant opened in Ontario this week, giving jobs to a lot of unemployed people. The wages and benefits are not as high as with the Big 3, but they still are good jobs.
they employed 355,000 here so I doubt it is even close. They have shut down some plants in Mexico also. They got 17 billion and were dragged through the mud but AIG got 165 billion and didn't even show up or was not told what to do with the money. They are far from perfect but there are many more worse companies just getting billions. Toyota will now probably post a loss for this year also. They all need to wake up the car buying frenzy is over in this country and people have to spend what they have not just rediculous credit amounts they have got. Union will have to wake up now also. With car sales dropping from 17 million per year to less than 11 million next year all manufacturers are in trouble around the world. Foreign companies were all trying to move to the large SUV and truck market for high profit vehicles. Now with low gas prices Pruis is tanking also. Nissan was in serious trouble few years back so the Japnese are far from perfect. Izuzu is gone from this country and Mazda was in trouble until Ford bought a large share. When you have a company like Korea dumping 800,000 cars here in the USA each year and allowing just about no foreign cars sold in their country something is wrong with our system. How many countries block our products for decades like Japan from rice, lumber products, beef, construction firm, insurance firms and autos? Let's have fair trade not a oneway street we are now paying for. Domestics are also competing with countries with national health-care and they have little legacy cost only being here 20 years. They purposly hired young people to avoid it. Many suppliers to all the car companies here are on the brink of broke so all companies will be affected here, even Toyota is worried. When we can't get parts for pickups and vans see how many businesses are going to be hurt. Things will change for the better. The domestics were moving in the right direction they just hit with the perfect storm, credit, fuel prices, and this horrible economy. Doubt any would recover from bankruptcy as 80% of the public said they won't buy from a bankrupt company which would really bury them. New hires at UAW get 14 per hour and little benefits that is why they bought out many employees and cleared their books of the health-care and pension liabilities to get the 14 per hr. worker. Wonder how long till the equipment manufacturers will be in deep trouble also. Look at Sterling Trucks going bye bye.
new Nissan pickup will be a Dodge.
Lets try to be sensible. All these vehicles use gas/oil. The media have no problem painting a picture of profits for those oil companies and how much the auto industry is failing for whatever reason. Why don't they take some of those record profits from the oil industry and give some funds outta that too the big three because.... One hand feeds the other
Let me preface with I am not in any way taking up for the oil companies. I believe the run up in fuel prices pushed our economy over the line into a severe recession and a few people made alot of money doing it. But- How is it equitiable to take money made by one industry and give it to another, regardless of their "market affiliation"? Example: A big road contractor gets a $100M contract to add lanes to the local HWY. His profit margin is 15% which means he made $15M on the project, which is a pretty good lick. Now the Real Estate developers located around the HWY are being hit pretty hard, some going into bankruptcy. Now if it wasn't for the real estate developers building shopping malls, apartments, office buildings and houses in and around this HYW, there would be no increase in traffic on the roads around the developments, which would not require a $100M contract to upgrade the roads in the first place. Now should we take some of the road builders profits to "bail out" the developers that are having a hard time because "one hand feeds the other"?
Thats a great example you have presented. What I was thinking was about the fuel issue being used as a bargining point for the automakers, which is pretty much happening. They have agreed to make fuel efficient cars in the future instead of gas guzzlers that are something extremely desirable to most folks here. In my opinion both industries used each other to maximize each others profits for a good little while, in that frame of mind I feel they should take a hit too. The mismanagement issues will never cease unless regulations are put into place where oversight has at least minimal control. The developers would come crying to the roadbuilders to help. Whether or not they got it is another story.
Regulations are part of the problem. If the big 3 didn't have to redesign the line up every few years to meet the new Crab standers they would be better off. Who do you think knows more about building car then auto manufactures? The government, since if they need more $$$ they just raise taxes or print more?
Dozerboy, you've hit on an important point here. The American automakers, while not perfect by any means, have been put at a disadvantage over the years by doing what any good capitalist would do- giving the people what they want. Americans, for the most part, want big powerful vehicles and are willing to pay for them and put up with the inconveniences that go with them. But along come the Feds (at the behest of the Greenies) and hobble them by insisting that they maintain a certain fuel mileage standard across the product line, which is a lot easier to do if your primary product is compact cars (meaning imports). Obviously they have been favoring the foreign car makers all along- don't even get me started about tariffs and export restrictions on American-made vehicles, tax breaks and land grants for the imports being made here, etc. I'm usually not one for govt bailouts and the like, but in this case Big Brother had a hand in creating the mess and it's fair that He should help clean it up.
Unfortunately we pay the bill for big brother. If the big 3 went into bankruptcy months ago they would be better off them they are now.
Personally I dont think dodge will survive
If GMAC doesn't get certified as a Bank like they were trying to meet the deadline of this past Firday they will have to file bankruptcy. That will take down GM as they own 49% of GMAC now. It will leave just about all GM dealers with no floor planning and no one else will give it to them. No floor plan, no product, no sales, and your done. Next few days will be real big. Saturday, December 27, 2008 GMAC quiet on bailout hurdle Kimberly S. Johnson / Associated Press GRAND BLANC -- Even after a crucial deadline came and went, the financing arm of General Motors Corp. remained silent Saturday on whether it cleared a final hurdle to become a bank holding company and gain access to billions in federal bailout money. Analysts have speculated that if GMAC Financial Services LLC doesn't obtain financial help it would have to file for bankruptcy protection or shut down, which would be a serious blow to parent GM's own chances for survival. GMAC had received the Federal Reserve's approval to become a bank holding company earlier in the week, but the approval was contingent on the ailing auto and home loan provider completing a complicated debt-for-equity exchange by 11:59 p.m. EST Friday. Advertisement In an e-mail early Saturday, GMAC spokeswoman Gina Proia did not provide any specifics. "The offer did expire yesterday at 11:59 p.m. as planned. We have not yet issued final results but intend to in the near term. I have no further comment on the exchange until then," she wrote. Becoming a bank holding company would both qualify GMAC to access the government's bank rescue funds and support GMAC loans to car buyers and GM dealerships. GM owns 49 percent of GMAC. The Federal Reserve apparently needed to see that bondholders were willing to inject more capital into GMAC. The bondholders needed reassurance that the Fed would approve GMAC's application to qualify for federal aid. If the auto lender failed to meet the exchange deadline, the repercussions for General Motors could be dire, according to Erich Merkle, an auto industry analyst with Crowe Horwath LLP. General Motors' ownership of GMAC has kept the finance arm lending to dealers and car buyers, even as credit from banks has dried up. If GMAC goes under, other institutions aren't likely to step in to replace the credit lost by GM's dealers and customers, Merkle said. "It would make a difficult selling environment for GM that much more difficult," Merkle said in an interview Saturday. More than half of all new vehicle sales in the U.S. involve loans made at the dealership through financing entities like GMAC, said Tom Libby, an industry analyst at J.D. Power and Associates. "When that source of credit dries up, it has an immediate negative impact on the industry," Libby said in an interview. The Fed's action Wednesday came as GMAC was struggling to get bondholders to convert 75 percent of their debt into equity of the company. GMAC's goal is to reach $30 billion in capital, the majority of which would come from the exchange of debt. Another part of the equity requirement included a demand from the Fed that $2 billion of the total come from new equity. So far, GMAC has received a commitment of $750 million from GM and Cerberus Capital Management. It's unclear whether that funding would come from the bridge loans the U.S. Treasury granted GM and Chrysler LLC -- which is owned by Cerberus-- earlier this month. GMAC has not said publicly how much it was requesting from the $700 billion bank bailout fund. CreditSights analyst Richard Hoffman estimated in a research note Friday that GMAC "could have applied for up to about $6.3 billion." The Fed order says GM will reduce its stake to less than 10 percent of the voting and total equity interest of GMAC. GM's remaining equity interest in GMAC will be transferred to an independent government-accepted trustee who must dispose of the equity held in the trust within three years of the trust's creation. Cerberus, which led an investment group that bought a 51 percent stake in GMAC from the automaker for $14 billion in 2006, will reduce its stake in GMAC to no more than 33 percent of total equity. Associated Press Business Writer Jessica Mintz in Seattle contributed to this report.