Turbo on a 3196 in an ag application, clock says 4400 hours, lifetime engine load average of 48%.
Sucking in trash i.e. dirt sand looks like and bad bearings in second picture but I don't see any scrapings unless the bearings finally seized it up and just coated the wheel with soot from the exhaust hiding where it was hitting on turbine housing.
Obviously the inducer side is just dirty air filters and a dirty work environment, but the blades don't show alot of wear. That exducer side I would chaulk up to bearings at first, but there's no corresponding damage to the housing or inlet side blades. I guessing its getting over heated, and over speeded somehow.. Looks to be nongated...
Bearings are tight. Doesn't appear to be wear from fine particles to me.
Is there any damage to the exduer housing to suggest pieces are getting thrown into it? Like chunks missing , or just deep gouges?
The best indication of a bad air filter is the dimple in the center of the shaft on the cold side. That one might appear to have a little stuff in there. Usually the first indication of a dusted engine is lots of blue smoke from broke rings.
What is the radial runout? Your not seeing any wear on compressor housing because the compressor blade failure started a ways back and soot has covered the tracks.
typically don't see soot on compressor side, but on the exhaust side we are not seeing the leading edge of the blades in correlation with airflow. Ill bet they look beat to hell.
I say lets clean it and take pictures of it and compare the two pictures will tell more of the story. Looks like something hit hard on the bottom blade on the intake side.
That's cause the seals on the bearings are blown and going through the other side.
Engine doesn't smoke, no blow-by. Sounds like it has plenty of compression when cranking over. I would suspect that the tiny bit of soot on the compressor wheel is from the trashed muffler, since it has an aspirator. I didn't check with a dial indicator, but I can't feel any discernable movement of the turbine wheel or compressor wheel. I wiped the edges of the housing around the turbine wheel, I cannot see any wear or scuff marks, so I don't believe the damage came from contact with the housing.
So, is it plausible that since this is a very early 3196, original turbo, that it could be a faulty turbo from new? I'm just trying to see something other than a dusted engine hopefully...
What exactly is wrong? I must be blind. The soot may be from crankcase recirculation?
Look at the edges of the blades in the second pic. That is the exhaust side. Chunks of blade are missing.
GOOD EYE Shimmy.!!
I'd say that it's damage from a previous turbo failure and whoever replaced this turbo didn't get all of the pieces of the original debris out of either the intercooler or the plumbing...engine sucks in the debris and spits it out into the exhaust. I had a Mack E6-350 that did that one time.
I'm thinking the top photo is the hot side and the bottom is the cold side? Only thing I can bring to mind at this moment is the amount of soot on the housing in the bottom photo. I'm thinking the cooled exhaust gas recirculation system blowing soot and maybe coolant into the intake side. Maybe a leaking cooler. My other thought is diesel leaking into the crankcase from a bad pressure pump and diesel vapor being sucked into intake. Maybe those fumes caught on fire in the intake manifold? The damage on the impeller points to overspeed from a run away engine. The damage on the turbine points to carbon being expelled from the firing chambers due to the overspeed. I'm thinking that the manifolds need to come off looking for more evidence. I don't know if this is an electronic engine but if so a review of the operating history prior to the failure needs to be done. Oil sample should be taken before any other work is started.
Top pic is cold (intake) bottom pic is exhaust. Caterpillar 3196, no EGR. Oil sample looked fine, but hardly any hours on the oil since I hadn't put the tractor in service yet. It was an auction purchase, from a farm retirement sale. Owner had the tractor for the last 3500 hours, very light work.
I have pulled all the intake piping, it is all perfectly clean. Like I can wipe it with white paper towels and there is nothing on it. I believe the turbo to be original. My other tractor had the turbo replaced before I got it, so I am leaning towards believing that the original turbos on these engines were suspect.
So what's wrong with the engine? Why you take it apart?
Muffler is cracked up, Cat is VERY proud of it ($2700), I pulled it off to fix, and since the pipe was off the turbo I decided to give it a peek.
The intake compressor looks fine, I see that alot. Now that exhaust turbine is another story. I have seen a few do that and believe it or not.........I was taught that severe engine lugging causes that. The explanation I got was when the engine lugged the excess fuel would coat the exhaust turbine and as it spins the fuel ends up on the outer edges. Once the turbo winds up with heat, that fuel on the tips burns hotter and over time it will burn off the edges. By the amount of soot it has, it makes sense. Take that for what its worth.
My WAG looks like they ran it with a plugged air filter and that took out the thrust washer. Any way it needs a new one. Bob
Wouldn't there be telltale scuff marks from the turbine making contact with the housing?
#1 It lost a turbo before and crap went through the system #2 High exhaust temps but I doubt it #3 Turbo was defective from the start, that does happen. #4 extremely hard carbon deposits built up in exhaust manifold broke loose and I doubt that also. #4 it's your unlucky day.
This is why I posted it on here. My other tractor had the turbo replaced before we got it at 6000 hours. I personally don't believe that it was caused by dirt ingestion, the intake piping would be filthy, unfortunately we've been down that road twice with other engines so I know what that looks like. What I've been hoping is that someone would have seen or experienced similar damage to a turbine end and had an answer that didn't involve debris or dirt.
I had a Detroit recon turbo on a 14L S-60 that came from factory defective-not enough clearance on both compressor and turbine. That was in a new glider truck. Detroit covered it. But the possibility of a defective turbo is not far fetched, it just took it's sweet time some of the edges on the turbine in your photo show it had been run a long time that way. Some of what would be sharp edges are rounded. Best I can say.
I've had bad turbo builds also from the factory. The point of this entire thread is that the turbo should be replaced.
Would be nice to have an idea what caused the failure though. Then you might be able to protect the new one from suffering the same fate. Sometimes things just go bad and you have no control over it. It's part of a big conspiracy theory to get you spend money on new parts.
Said lt was running fine then decided to take a peek inside--said it was running ok---so run it till it makes a noise and blows smoke.
Any turbo rebuilder will have a “failure chart”.. There’s probably little to nothing they haven’t seen.. Hell, u might be able to Google it.?
Well there's the base problem lol Also just cause the intake pipes are clean doesn't mean it wasn't run in the past with it off, seen it before, more then once.
A pugged filter don't mean it will pass dirt but when it is changed the turbo shaft will go back towards center. Bob
https://www.cummins.com/sites/defau...s/turbos-failure-diagnosis-poster-english.pdf
Yup.. that’s it.. thanks Truck Shop. Foreign object impact..
Only one big problem with charts like that one. Notice Cummins didn't show the aftermath of a defective turbo. Because that would be admitting. It's always something else that caused failure.