I need to move 300,000 cu. yards per month for 36 months and I wanted to hear people's thoughts as to which combination of machinery to use to keep the $/cu. yard the lowest. The earth movement is all on industrial nondeveloped land so we make our own provisional accesses/roads. Historically we have used open bowl scrapers 637 with tractors D9 pushing them full and large vibratory soil compactors compacting the load from the scrapers. I wanted to see what anybody out there would reccomend, as far as using other equipment, 657, towable scrapers, other ideas considering that a job of this size really allows us to invest in new-to-us equipment and can give us a chance at a more optimal blend of equipment for a better $/cu. yd. I know you're busy, but I also think that this is the kind of question that I'd like to be asked in other areas of my expertise; a "what would you do to...make this the most optimal something" Thanks very much in advance and details are appreciated.
A few more details of the job would help. What kind of material? Dirt, mud, sand, rippable rock, shot rock. Different answer for each How far does it get moved? Again, with a change in distance there may be a change in answers.
he's right.. different could mean alot . there is a job up north from here... all the scrapers are parked... too heavy... they are running the Case tracked machines ... about 20 ..most have two pull pans... a couple had 1 pan and one was pulling 3 pans 10,800,000 cubic yard? 12000 cy a day 1200 an hour 10 yard per trip 120 per hour but even at 20 per that would be a trip every minute.. and 60 somethings hauling ... just guessing other than that I would assume that your PM box will fill rapidly with resumes
Yep definitely more info required. just way too many variables.
More info... About the ground: the ground is somewhat hard, but not too bad as it presents some cobbles, but for the most part it's just dirt. Mud isn't an issue as the area is relatively arid and while there is a little sand, it's only sand for technical purposes due to it's grain size and chemical composition but there is nothing like a discernible large sand deposit or anything like that. As for the distance it is being moved, I'd say it's on average about 150 yards. I'm working with hills, and for the most part there is a decent proximity between cuts and fills. The earth will be moved on our own made accesses and not on existing or paved roads or anything like that. Some more useful info: On a similar job (only much smaller) with similar conditions what we've done before is use 637 scrapers that are pushed by tractors in which we've achieved decent $/cu. yard (while I do not know if this is optimal) was achieved by using (1) D9 Tractor to push to fill (3) 637 Scrapers, that would unload for (2) soil compactors to compact, which would be aided by two 3,000 gallon water trucks with an average distance between loading and unloading of about 100 yards. If I'm leaving something essential out, please don't hesitate to ask. Thank you very much for your time, your expertise is much appreciated.
how bout a 815 or 825 cat compactor? Could eliminate those rollers and help or eliminate the fill dozer.
More info... More info... About the ground: the ground is somewhat hard, but not too bad as it presents some cobbles, but for the most part it's just dirt. Mud isn't an issue as the area is relatively arid and while there is a little sand, it's only sand for technical purposes due to it's grain size and chemical composition but there is nothing like a discernible large sand deposit or anything like that. As for the distance it is being moved, I'd say it's on average about 150 yards. I'm working with hills, and for the most part there is a decent proximity between cuts and fills. The earth will be moved on our own made accesses and not on existing or paved roads or anything like that. Some more useful info: On a similar job (only much smaller) with similar conditions what we've done before is use 637 scrapers that are pushed by tractors in which we've achieved decent $/cu. yard (while I do not know if this is optimal) was achieved by using (1) D9 Tractor to push to fill (3) 637 Scrapers, that would unload for (2) soil compactors to compact, which would be aided by two 3,000 gallon water trucks with an average distance between loading and unloading of about 100 yards. If I'm leaving something essential out, please don't hesitate to ask. Thank you very much for your time, your expertise is much appreciated.
Now that's a chunk of dirt! Your talking 100000 cy yd per unit per month I don't know if you mean M-F 8 hours or long hours or 6 day week. No vibrtory I've seen could keep up with that kind of dirt. Hey I've got a couple 623's that could help pick up the berms LOL Best of luck, I can only dream of that size of a job
I'm thinking 10-2-10-2 operation... they did that on a dam here years ago.. I can't remember the total equipment used or the types , but there were maybe 8 push /pulls... I think they were binders 2 ...10 hours shifts would cut the load count in half to 30 per hour... then if you double the cy to 40 then 15 loads per hour... which may be a reasonable 4 minute cycle time.. maybe my figure are off.. But it's fun to guesstimate... my original guesses were 25 days a month. 10 hour days..
It has been used for years with coal mines and Alot of the big boys are getting into these setups and they are working great for big cuts and fills, depending on how Big you budget is and if you can keep a solid enough haul road maintained. Probably 4 trucks at 140 tones and A ex1800 to load would be a impressive cheque to see written.
2 Clarifications 1. When I say that we've done work on this in similar conditions I'm referring to similar soil and distance conditions. The volume we moved was significantly less, but since my question is about $/cu. yard, I thought it could provide a good frame of reference. The conditions we're working under is 9 hour days. 2. Our machinery is getting old and we're seeing this big job as an opportunity to revamp our equipment. That is the real motivation behind behind this post. What do you recommend that would be the best equipment to handle this kind of volume to keep our costs as low as possible? Thanks again for your time and knowledge. It is very much appreciated!
Wow
Typically the bigger the cheaper, You might think about some 657's, they can be bought reasonably now. A job that size if the money is solid is a great chance to move up in the world and also can go the other way if taken to cheap. You need a balanced job, the right amount of scrapers to meet your target quantity the right amount of water and water equipment, I would think a couple 8K-10K gallon water wagons and compaction to match the material hauled, something to keep the fill and haul roads up and keep the cut ripped. The key is Balance
I know you did not ask about it, but more machines means more mechanics. I hate when they double the size of the fleet and keep the same number of mechanics. That goes for support vehicals too, graders for haul roads, water trucks, lube trucks, etc.
DPete, can you give me a good example of what you consider to be a good balanced attack?
Would a 4wd tractor with 2 pull pans work? http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/CLS-GM-Helped-Popularize-Pull-Pans-Tractors-in-South/9886/
That is a huge job compared to any I've had but the principals are the same. It's all cycle times and math and by balanced I mean you do not want to interupt the flow of dirt that is your paycheck so you need ample but not to much support equipment to keep an engineered fill and the cut efficient. Lots of things to consider, soil moisture, water availibilty, length of haul, can the dirt go downhill, ripping,rock, sand. If your target yardage is 300K per mo. get your calculator out and machine capacities and pencil it. If you're going to work 21 or 22 days per month you are needing to move 13000 to 14000 daily. Remember profit begins at the desk.
for starters the biggest job I have ever been on was 600k yards, but the principles of dirt flow don't change. Balance, its like watching that visa comercial and when the guy pays with cash the world stops, stops don't pay. I don't know if your going to see the self propelled scrapers potential with only a 150 yard avg haul route. With a longer haul you increase your scraper count until they start waiting for a push cat. With such a short haul, I think you would be about right with three pans, but they might keep ahead of the cat, and be waiting... You mentioned having a d9, I'd try tandem pull pans on him, biggest I could find too. Minsk makes a 26 yd I know. I like the dozer puller scraper because he doesn't need a push cat, and wet conditions don't necessarily shut him down. Mc someobody in cali. moves alot of their dirt this way. On the short stuff, Id try a d11 or two, maybe beside each other. Your going to need water & compaction equipment, and possibly a lg. disk and tractor if the stuff gets too wet. Don't forget backup equipment & preventive maintence. If the whole show relies on one rip cat and it quits, then the show quits....
That's a good point DirtHauler, I didn't ask about it, but you're very right.
We've got loads of scraper parts and components right up the street so don't hesitate to contact us if you need some help neighbor. :usa
If you want to play it safe start out with what you have, get a few progress payments and upgrade as you work using money or part of the money earned from the job. 3 years work and 10 million yards should allow for that.
yeah no one thinks about the mechanics until something is broke.. I did look up some used prices for cat stuff... OUCH even used I wonder if you have considered lease / purchase.. The used stuff online maybe high I don't know... these were all in the 3 to 5 year old range 14h blade... $300,000 D8t...$525,000 637...$850,000 815...$379,000 621g water wagon...$375.000 then there is the fuel bill... I seen the 657's had a 400 plus gallon tank The lake project had the 2 hour breaks ... it was for refueling. the grease truck would grease, then service .. always a mechanic truck on site... 3 years of steady work sounds real good these days
http://www.gradingandexcavating.com/the-latest/worlds-largest-scraper.aspx Maybe this?
What about software programs like http://www.dynaroad.fi/pages/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4&Itemid=7
I would say the absolute killer these days is the HIGH Fuel costs.. especially a few years ago when the prices doubled or tripled... Oil hasn't raised near as much... but I would definitely look at set price plus an up charge... heck everything else has a fuel surcharge on the bill. three years is a long time to operate if the fuel cost suddenly go nuts again..
Just think streamline operation. We were part of a project recently moving 7 million yards in 12 months. There was a stack of bad scraper tires the size of a walgreens by the time we were finished. The service crews and layout crews worked all night, and production moving was done from daylight to dark. One very large factor to consider when trying select a balanced fleet is size and depth of your cuts and fills. If you have big (50+ feet deep and wide) cuts and fills the amount of compaction and fine grade support required will be much less than if your cuts are say 10 feet and fills are 8 feet. In the latter example you will achieve subgrade in each area much faster, thus requiring more finishing support to keep up with the mass moving. On large (wide) cuts and fills you may work a week to get one lift in and the finish work that is ready will be minimal. The prices listed above for used iron are absurdly high. Look for iron in areas hardest hit by the economy, we have bought a bunch of good lower hr iron that way for less than auction price. Congrats on the opportunity of a lifetime!
Looking at it in rough terms 300,000m3 per month, 24 working days per month (max you will get with weather, days off etc). 12,500m3 per day or 1,250m3 per hour needs to be your average. For every hour lower you need an hour higher to hit your schedule. Too keep some schedule float, you should target 15,000m3 per shift. I bid and manage projects this size quite often. A few things need to be defined. 1. Avg haul distance 2. Ground conditions 3. Soil Type 4. Compaction Spec. I think 2 large excavators (85-125t) should be able to hit 400-500m3/hr with rigid frame trucks to handle the bulk. Add scrapers for the short haul dirt and some articulated trucks with a smaller excavator if there are any wet areas. Fleet might look something like this Production 2 - 100t excavators 8-10 60-70ton rigid frame trucks (Komatsu 465 or a 773 Cat) 1 - 40t excavator 4-5 40 t articulated trucks 6 - 631 Cat Scrapers D10 pushcat Support 2 - D8 spread cats 2 - other site dozers in cut/wet areas 2 - Haul road graders 1 - Fill grader (with scrapers) 2 - 815 or 825 padfoot packers 2 - Ag tractors (pulling disc's or padfoot packers) You would need 1 good foreman, a couple of sub-foremen/gradepersons, and other support staff. If your labour supply is good, consider running 2 - 8 hour shifts a day. That would net you 16 hrs production and keep overtime costs down. PM me if you want more detail, and an address to send the consulting bill to.
I'v never worked on anything as big as you folks are talking about but this thread seems like a gold mine of info. Kinda like a wargame only for dirt work. Think more threads like this, trying to find the best way to setup a job, would help alot. Trying to pick each others brain from past experince and curent knowledge makes for great brain storming. This could be the best consultinat group on the planet.
I think some of you responding missed the part where Chic says the average distance from loading to unloading is 100 yards. That puts it squarely in the territory of scrapers. Too short for an effecient truck or belly dump spread. He also mentions hills. Sounds like a place for 651's with D-10 pushcats, or 657's. Depending on the soil, either 825 or 834 in the fill. Typical SoCal dirt compacts nicely with rubber, so the 834B is the way to go.
Let me tell you what would happen if this were my job!! Before the ink was dry on the signatures of the contract: The GOV would pass new legislation taxing dirt mining/movement @ $1/yard. Gas and Diesel prices would jump to $7/gallon due to war breaking out in the middle east. Wife would tell me that she is expecting twins!! Someone would file a lawsuit against me for a rock that came from the roadway causing them to swerve out of control and crash. All of this before the ink is dry!!
Shoot sounds as if you live local to me...
ointlaugh :falldownlaugh
With the short haul distance this job screams scrapers. TS-14s or 24s work great. you can get good deals on them and they are easy to work on. If you need to do a lot of ripping try to have 2 push dozers. so one can rip while the other keeps dirt moving. If fine grade is important I would get a couple gps dozers to take care of that. moving that much dirt maybe 2 825 compacting and try the water trucks you have. you can always get a bigger truck if you need it. make sure if you need to go far for water you can fill them fast. maybe a water tower so u can fill them fast. you may want to have a grader for keeping the haul roads smooth so the scrapes do need to slow down. Hope the job goes smooth for you. Please keep us updated.