Track shoes, sprockets, carrier rollers, what do you use on the bolt threads, thread locker?, antisieze?, interested as to what those who have experience consider the best options
I generally use copper antiseize compound in spray form so you could shoot it in the threaded holes besides putting it on the bolt threads, I have used 242 loctite not for vibration but to seal the threads. The undercarraige I just finished I used antiseize on bottom roll fasteners and loctite on the sprocket fasteners. I just always do it that way.
I use anti seize.... think it should be a law, when building a new machine everything put together with anti seize.... any thing thats meant to come apart..
Anti Seize all the way. Grew up with my grandpa, dad and uncle swearing by the stuff and it drives me nuts seeing guys put things back together without wire wheeling a bolt and just putting back on the machine. And next time...it don't come off. All of our undercarraige componets gets AS'ed and 3 years later when installing new....the bolts all came off with the 3/4" impact and saved. Few years ago, putting tracks back on after fixing adjustment seal on front ideler i got my hand caught between 2 pads and was stuck there for bout 20 mins. Torch was WAY to hot too quick to even attempt that way but I told them grab the socket and wrench...them bolts have never seize on them. It came off no issues. Trbo
On track shoe bolts - black (graphite) anti-sieze under the bolt head and on the thread. As Tom V said on another thread the other day, if the shoes or links are new take the paint off the back of them first. On roller bolts - copper anti-seize after having run a tap into the threded hole first to clean it out. Sprocket segment bolts - whatever the service manual procedure calls for. Based on personal experience I'm always a bit wary of what torque to put on a bolt when the procedure in the manual doesn't call for putting anti-sieze on it. You have to back the torque way down and you're never sure what tension you're putting on the bolt.
CAT copper anti-seize, same as Nige clean the threads first and torque to correct spec's with the faces nice and clean, no paint, dirt or rust We used to use a RAD gun for torquing and removing bolts, 3600lbft got most bolts out as long as they had plenty of spunk on them to start with, it should be a punishable crime if people assemble lower track roller bolts without some form of anti-seize
We mix some anti-sieze and 80-90. make a soup in a pail and dip all the bolts. the oily mix stays wet in there a lot longer than just anti-sieze alone.
thanks all for the replys, i am antisieze fan, I have no experience i undercarriage work, the guys here loctite the track shoes and sprockets, but then i realised they only use WD40 on the track rolller bolts. no wonder the machines break track roller bolts. Juts thought I would check with others on here, I will leave the sprocket and track shoes but they will be pulling the track roller bolts back out to antisieze them, thanks again
Yair...I always found one of the problems with disassembly of machines constantly working in salt water was that the bolts were often too long and the exposed threads rusted and galled when backing out. It made a huge difference to repair times when we started measureing thread depth on through holes such as rock gaurd and roller bolts and cutting off bolts so they remained one thread inside...or maybe Cat. has done the right thing by all fitters and now makes the holes in track frames blind? I was also very anal about this on cutting edge bolts. Anything I hate is grovelling around in the mud under a scraper gas axing bolts because the threads are sticking through. If you measure and cut so the threads are flush with the nut or one thread back inside you can generaly blurt them off no trouble even if the nuts are pretty worn...and Cat. anti-sieze of course, the copper stuff, that goes without saying. Cheers.
so, anti-seize is used for more than just door handles?
For door handles, lock mechanisms, seat rails, seat suspension mechanisms, etc, (even the rubber seals around doors) I would always use aerosol dry graphite lube. Anything sticky you use in these areas will just cause dust & dirt to stick to whatever you are trying to lubricate. Then your lube becomes something akin to grinding compound and causes more trouble than it fixes IMO. Picking up on scrub pullers comments about bolt lengths I always try to find the exact correct length of bolt (if one exists) so that when it's assembled there is no more than 1 thread poking through the nut. I don't like leaving the bolts short in the nut because then you stand the risk of the threads tearing over time and then the GET loosens. Nobody like having to go back to re-tighten or replace GET hardware. In a lot of cases we're using bolt part numbers that are different than what the Parts Book quotes but it works for us. Bala - I would say if your guys are using Loctite on track shoe bolts then those bolts will be undertightened and run the risk of loosening over time, expecially if the shoes are a bit on the wide side. You really need anti-seize both on the thread and under the bolt head (lots of people forget that) plus the torque specified in the manual to make sure you have the correct tension on the bolt.
good points about the bolt lengths, I picked up on that when they were disassembling. there are some very inexperienced qualified tradesmen In the workshop i run, and although i dont have eme experience i have a lot of general experince. i would say the loctite has come about because they did not use antiseize so the bolts come loose, on the machines we have there have been a lot of track roller bolts broken, pain to get out, they just consider it normal but again not antisieze so the bolts come loos and break. I have lots of this sort of thing to deal with. The have always done track shoe bolts by hand, 2 or 3 guys for hours with breaker bar and pipe undoing bolts. I bought them a 1/2" air rattle gun and a 1" electric rattle gun. One comment was "life is good now"
Nige, you just gotta know Qball, he doesn't use the antiseize on the door latch mechanism, he uses it on the Handles of other peoples machines.
:thumbsup Yep, that's good advice. I learned it the hard way...
they take the paint off so thats good, the other thing I reallised they were doing when fitting the sprocket bolts with loctite: They put the loctite on then put the bolt in, buzzed them up with the new 1/2" rattle gun and when they were all in tensioned them, so i explained how the loctite has already gone off and that when they tension they are breaking the loctite,
The best stuff I have ever used on undercarriage bolts was Stockholm Tar. One of my bosses told me about it years ago when we were due to change a heap of load rollers on a demag H255. I'd never heard of it but he swore it was the best stuff, previously we always had problems with the nuts seized, then having to gas axe them to remove roller. Demags have a bolt/ nut setup through the track frame, and the nut had a plate welded to the side so it didn't turn when tensioning. We had used anti seize before but still had dramas. Like mentioned before in this thread, there was always some bolt thread protruding after the nut, totally exposed. So before this shutdown, we bought 2 x 4 litre tins of Stockholm tar, and before installing the bolts we dip the whole bolt into the tin, and because its liquid. its quick and easy. I remember next time we had to change rollers on that machine, not 1 nut was seized and it was a breeze. I was amazed at how good it was. Anti seize is good, but I'd recommend stockholm tar to anyone.
Correction... I had heard of Stockholm Tar before, but it was something we used on our horses hoof's when I was growing up. I'd just never heard of it being used in this application...
Yeah...not good.
Zed, I've never heard of Stockholm Tar. After tooling around the 'net I see that it's derived from pine tree sap, interesting. Learn something new every day.:Cowboy There is a pine stump "distillery" in South Alabama that I pass going to the Gulf, I just thought they make pine rosin for baseball teams and Pine Sol sent.
Well I grew up around horses and we used it alot to paint on our horses hoofs, to keep them healthy (not sure how it works but my grandfather told us to do it, and he's an expert horseman). When my boss told me to get some for this shut, I kinda raised an eyebrow... But he convinced me it was great stuff. We'd had so many dramas before I thought it couldn't hurt so we tried it. I might have a look on the net about it myself now...
What we use is red loctite on sprocket bolts or sprocket segment bolts. We use a mixture of 90wt and anti-sieze on the track bolts. Anti-sieze on the rollers bolts. We see machines over and over again and the track bolts are usually still wet, the roller bolts come out, and the sprocket or segment bolts are never loose. Alot of people will dip the roller bolts in grease but they will be dry when time to replace rollers. We have tried many different lubricants on the track bolts and we have found 90wt mixed with anti-sieze works best for us.
And always give the bolt and the area around it a slap with a big hammer to crack the rust. before undoing the bolt. spent many a day welding nuts to broken bolts to get them out
Couldn't agree more with the Stockholme tar. Having been using it for twenty years after an old bloke put me onto it. A bit dubious to start with, but still find it to be the best stuff out for undercarriage and cutting edge bolts.
Deja vu on the undercarriage bolts. Stockholm tar aka pine tar. HeavyEquipmentForums
As a toolmaker who grew up on a 80a. farm, w/15 horses, and some old equipment w/ square heads/nuts, I have used some pine tar on the hoses. None of them had rusty nuts. The biggest issue is to put enough good water repellent grease on the bolt threads to fill all of the internal spaces, and extrude a bit out of the hole. A properly made Unified thread has a slight flat, at both the crest and root, equal to 1/8 the pitch of the thread. This makes a helical opening for water to wick into. As was mentioned, the bolt length is critical. Once an over-length bolt is pushed into the taper at the bottom of the threaded hole, you are fighting friction on the thread flanks, and also on the bottom threads that have been deformed by the wedgie. Another thread idea that I learned while owning a Case steam traction engine, is a thick mixture of Lubriplate 930AA, and flake graphite on all pipe threads that went into the boiler. 2-3 years later the fittings came out with the same torque that they went in with. It is better to over grease a bolt than having to remove the threads from a hole in a part that can not be set on a mill table. Regards, Bob
What makes loctite go off? Is it pressure, exclusion of air/oxygen or something else? As it can sit in the bottle for ages and still seems to work. Sometimes with the lid off...Oops
It's anaerobic, which means it works with the absence of air. Thats why if your using say 518 flange sealant on metal to metal surface, the excess that gets squeezed out stays sticky and doesnt go off.
Yeah, i'm still using Loctite from the 70's.
Thanks Zed, I also meant to ask, how long does it take to go off?
Granpa & Scrub Puller have nailed it good, particularly about the bolt shanks being too long and the exposed part corroding. Spent many a day getting broken bolts out of track frames. Always used Never-Seize (now a Loctite brand) on re-assembly, never had any problems thereafter. Vital to use the stuff on manifold studs and nuts to prevent lots of unnecessary additional work. Interesting to hear about the Stockholm Tar. Never used it, only heard of it being used in the horse days. I guess it isn't much good in hot conditions (manifolds, etc)? A lot of tree saps and resins are superb rust preventatives - poplar bark is typical, it's full of iron tannates, that are natural rust-preventatives. If you look up the story about the WW2 German tank recovered from the pond in Eastern Europe, you'll see the pond is bordered by poplar trees. The tannins in the poplar bark preserved the tank something amazing.
Our guys in the workshop use a thick black almost tar like substance that we dip the bolts in before putting them in, not sure what its called but stockholm tar would be a good name for it . Will have to ask the fitters what it is . Cheers RDG.
Bumping an ancient thread; anyone have any updated info on Stockholm tar? I'm fighting rusty and snapped off bolts (not undercarriage) and trying to keep from repeating this process again. Appears that it acts as an anti-seize and a mild thread-locker, too.
A shop that does a lot of undercarriage told me to use blue Loctite on the bottom rollers bolts. You can get surface insensitive Loctite that isn't affected by a little oil on the threads. Bolts don't come loose and the Loctite also prevents them from getting seized/ rusted solid.
Stockholm tar? Sounds like some type of European heroin. Just say no. Once you go on the smack, you ain’t coming back.
Over fifty years in the business and I generally used whatever the manufacturer recommended. Sprocket bolts were always a problem after the first set were changed. Because of slight movement between the drive wheel and the sprocket segments would promote slight movements over time, we used to weld around the corners of the segment to the drive wheel to help hold things tight. For the bottom rollers we used anti seize and then welded a piece of 1" by 3/16" bar stock to the flats of the roller bolt heads on each side. The bar went from one bolt across to the other bolt. Thread lock compounds and all the fancy chemical concoctions I've found only make the installer feel good until it has to be taken apart again or the fastener snaps off in the hole. I have yet to find anything that would prevent corrosion in the undercarriage bolt holes after running the 3,500 for dozers and to 7,000 hours or more of service life on excavators.
Interesting point about anti-seize and welding bar stock to bottom roller bolts. Same concept as safety wire, but heavy duty stuff.
Pretty standard practice in the PNW. I thought that was the only way. Even the brand new machines rolled out of the dealership like that. Just part of new machine set up along with the paper floor mats and Caterpillar air freshener on the rear view.
Liberal application of Loctite and/or anti-sieze should suffice if torqued properly. Original bolts rarely come loose. Can't see why new bolts can't be put in similar to original bolts. Welding flat bar to the track frame to prevent the bolt turning could be a failsafe. Welding directly to the bolts could compromise them.
Nige go back in time, Stockholm's tar wont wash over ,and good for cuts and cheap
Better than all the chemicals base one
its what they used on sheep cut plus all the old sailing ship rigging
I can't imagine working with pine tar as an anti seize/sealant. That stuff is NASTY. Removing it from anything makes wiping up nickle based anti seize look like spilled water. Yea, its a good wound treatment and it will stick around several days on a hoof. For locktite/anti seize in blind holes, the compound must be put in the hole, not on the screw. Otherwise the hole is airlocked and the compound won't get past the first thread.
Ok, so the 1967 John Deere 350 is getting new single grouser shoes/pads. Bolts are 1/2" - 20 (fine thread) track bolts from Broken Tractor - https://www.brokentractor.com/p/john-deere-track-shoe-bolt-nut-kit-id207bk/ Plan is to clean the chain mounting surface and clean the paint from the pads around the bolts. I'll use anti-seize on the bottom of the bolt heads and on the threads. Plan is to tighten them to 90 ft lbs, which is what is recommended for 1/2" fine thread lubricated. Sound reasonable? Thanks
Make sure you clean the underside of the shoe to go past the profile of the links, not just around the bolts. You don't want any paint or contaminants between the underside of the shoes and the links or you'll never keep the hardware tight. Personally for track shoe bolts the lubricant I would suggest to use is something like engine oil or similar. Anti-seize would significantly increase the possibility of over-tightening the hardware. The only undercarriage hardware I would use anti-seize on would be croc-style master link bolts because usually the assembly instructions specify it.
Pad bolts are usually tightened using the torque turn method. A starting torque is completed and then the bolt turned a specified number of degrees more. Some do 90 degrees and others do 120 degrees or two flats. As Nige states a lubricant will be specified by the manufacturer of the machine using their brand of bolts. After market threaded fasteners can be a crapshoot on whether they will take that amount of torque and stay tight. The process is to tighten the bolt into yield where it is stretched to the point that it will not return to its original length. That is as tight and as much holding force as the bolt can accomplish. I've always used anti-seize on pad bolts myself and never had them come loose using this method. Good Luck
X2 on Nige's advice. If you don't take it you're going to be cussing - ALOT.
In the absence of a spec for initial torque followed by X degrees, I think I'm going to have to go with just a final torque. FYI - I tried to use John Deere bolts, but the originals had been superseded about 5x and JD only had about 100 available of the allegedly correct ones in the entire JD parts system nationwide and I need 288. Thanks
Yep. I'm going to spend a fair amount of time with a flap wheel cleaning up paint this weekend. Getting the old shoes off is going to be fun, too.
We used to just burn the nuts off but if in a hurry we would use a rivet buster torch and burn off the bolt heads. The anti-sieze and the standard torque might just work out fine. Run them some tight and then retorque to make sure they are still tight. It's a small older machine so I think you have a lot of lee way.
I believe track bolts are a little stronger than grade 8 so can take a little more torque. I think Cat has a torque turn listing for 1/2" bolts. Anti-seize will reduce the torque required a little more than using engine oil.
I plan to unbolt them all, but I have a torch for the ones that don't want to loosen. Thanks
According to what I found on the interwebs, there is a definitely a difference between torque using oil and anti-seize, but it's not a huge difference. 90 ft/lbs is on the higher end of torque with anti-seize and on the lower end with oil, but still in the strike zone for both. I'll call Broken Tractor to see if they have torque turn specs for their bolts, but I'm not hopeful that they will.
I called Broken Tractor and they provided the following specs: Exceeds Grade 8, torque to 130-140 ft lbs, 170,000 - 180,000 psi tensile strength. They did not have any torque turn specs. Anyway, their specs sound about right -- for a regular 1/2 - 20 Grade 8, McMaster-Carr lists tensile strength as 150,000 psi and the generic torque spec is 120 ft/lbs. I should be able to bump up torque to 100 ft/lbs with oil and/or anti-seize. EDIT: I found one site that recommended 48 ft/lbs + 1/3 turn for 1/2 track bolts, or a final torque of 133-210 ft lbs. Unfortunately, they didn't include the specs on the bolts. https://bigpartsllc.com/bolt-torque-specs/ And ITR has the same - 48 ft/lbs + 120 degrees (1/3 turn) for 1/2 - 20 bolts with 170,000 psi https://dmcwearparts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/ITR-TRACK-BOLTS.pdf
It is a great thing that you are doing your homework. If you are going take the old ones loose keep in mind that the bolt heads will be worn down by the material that they have been working in. Regular sockets will fit loose and try to round off the bolt heads. My experience is that they will work for awhile until the sockets will break. Impact sockets are usually loose to begin with, the worn bolt heads will just round off. If the bolt heads are worn enough, you can usually pound the next smaller impact socket on to them. Be careful as all this force sometimes involves medium velocity steel flying in unexpected directions. Safety glasses and ear protection are highly advised.
The old bolt heads are actually not that bad off. Maybe the prior owner used new ones when he installed the loader pads? I'll definitely be wearing hearing protection; good point on eye protection, too. Thanks for the input.
This spec is for oiled bolts. Dry would be the 132ish lb/ft.
Excellent! Thanks for posting that info. Scott
I think the ITR specs. are the most trusted. They are a big player in undercarriage.
Yep. That's a good lead-in to my next comment. The track bolts and nuts arrived today. I ordered these from Broken Tractor, but they're made by ITR. Nice looking stuff, too.
Hope their spec's are better than their excavator rails..
It's been a while but we used to run ITR undercarriages on our dozers and track loaders. They lasted as long as the OEM Cat undercarriages for us. It's entirely possible that they're no longer the quality they used to be though ...
Deere used to be all Berco. How long ago did they switch?
Put a set of ITR rails on our 321DL several years ago. We have put around 2K hours on that set of rails and a master link is wallered out as if they have 6K hours on them. Strangely just one side though.
I wonder if you got a defective master link that wasn't heat treated or something? That's what I think would cause it to waller out prematurely. Any chance of getting it checked and covered under warranty because it was defective from the get go? Nicky said he has had good luck with ITR.
The rails are well out of warranty time wise. I won't buy another set.
Called ITR today to see if they could give me torque and/or torque and turn specs for their track bolts with anti-seize. Guy I spoke with didn't have a clue (they only have a sales line, not a tech line), but someone is supposed to call me back.
Can't blame you. Still think you got a defective master link but you wouldn't be able to tell right away. Bad QC!
No luck. The sales rep called back but no meaningful information to share.