I'm looking at getting a backhoe to start a small excavation business, and do some jobs around the farm. I'm looking to go with a modern 4x4, cab, heat, air, e-hoe, and maybe some loader attachments. Looking at like a cat 420 d/e, case 580sm2, or a deere 310sg/sj. Now this might be a kindergarden question, but what features does an IT have over stardard models? Is it just a quick coupler on the front bucket w/ aux. lines up front? Or does it include a rear quick coupler as well? I have heard that the IT part sucks some power from machine. What does everyone else think? I'm plannin on using the machine for general digging and loader work, might want a graple that I can use with both forks and a bucket. Might add snow removal equipment to it in the winter, possibly a blower. I also want to be able to run a hammer, a breaker, and have a thumb on the hoe. Might try a post pounder on the hoe. What do you all think, Is the backhoe the right piece? And what about the IT's?
Yeah a backhoe sounds like the right choice... they are incredibly versatile. The IT feature is basically the quick coupler and in come cases parrallel linkage for the loader so that your forks always stay level when you lift. As far as I know Cat is the only company that has an entirely different loader setup for their IT model. I think but I am not 100% sure that Case is the only manufacturer with a hyd. quick coupler on the rear, but the Deere's can be converted to use the case quick attach for the hoe. You can buy a seperate quick attach unit for a standard loader backhoe for any backhoe. Case has their own quick coupler for their loader, Deere has one, and WBM sells a coupler but my experience with the WBM style coupler on Deere backhoes sucks.
Personally Id stay away from Cat backhoes in general. I respect others thoughts and opinions and hope they wont take offense to that comment. To elaborate on the "IT" it stands for intergrated tool carrier. I think a regular loader setup and quick coupler is much better. It may not give you parallel lift but you will most likely have better breakout and less "slop" over time. My friend had a 416CIT with 5,500hours and the IT became very sloppy over time. His wasnt the only one.
Our 420D is not an IT, but it's been great in every other respect. Power, speed, and balance are excellent. It's kind of a funny size, but in a good way. Heavier the a 580, but less hp than a 590. Honestly it will still spin the tires if you stomp the throttle when digging in with the front, so more needing more power isn't really an issue. The IT linkage provides even more break out force, so you don't even lose anything with the parallel lift feature. I had plenty of time on 580SLs with under 2500hrs and a NH 575 or 675 before we got the Cat. They honestly don't compare. The 580s were plenty solid and strong, but our Cat just does everything better. Even the specs show this if you look, so it's not just my opinion. In all fairness, the M series wasn't out at the time, so definitely demo one to compare. The NH was weak on the loader end, but strong on the backhoe end, yet it was worthless, because it didn't weigh enough to sit still while digging(I think the stabilizers had more miles than the tires ). We haven't had anything go wrong that wasn't our fault. Even with 4,000hrs, it really isn't that sloppy. That really depends on how it was run and greased. I wouldn't trade it for almost any other brand(never tried Deere) and you can't really blame it on pride or arrogance of people recognizing the Cat name, when most people just call it a crane or bulldozer anyway. It was cheaper, hasn't broken down, is good on fuel, lifts more farther out, and the loader end is quicker and stronger. What's not to like about that? EDIT: all this long winded stuff to say Cat, Case, or Deere is fine. While I may prefer one and someone else another, there is no reason to fear buying Cat, just as I wouldn't have a problem running Case if the deal was right, unless there is a bad dealer involved which is another matter entirely.
:lmao Had my laugh for the night.
Another note on the Case. Case typically uses ACS couplers on the front end and our experience with them were not good. The top "loop" would break off and the coupler pins needed to be adjusted often. I believe you can opt for a JRB coupler in the Case and that would be the way to go - we've never had a problem with the JRB.
Honestly no experience with other than Cat. The IT on the cat rules. Can go from a set of forks to a bucket without getting out of the cab. If you plan on using different attachments it's worth it IMO.
If your planning on doing general excavation with the hoe, there is little reason to go with the IT linkage. If your using it as a General Contractor would by having a broom attachment or as a work platform that would be one thing. The other use is on a pipe crew where you would switch from forks to bucket often. If your not using the loader for attachments there is no reason for all the extra linkage in general excavation. They are a specialty machine and if your not taking advantage of its capabilities there is no reason to own one. I also believe that the bucket breakout is less on the IT but perhaps a CAT guy can clarify that. I know that CASE has the hyd. quick attach on the front as an option. As far as what make, demo whats available to you and decide from there.
I'm looking in my Cat Perf. Handbook and it says a 420D with single tilt loader has 10 181lbs breakout force, and the IT model has 10 564lbs breakout with 1.25cu yd bucket. When it comes to backhoes... I am a Case/Deere man. If I am using the loader a lot... I would rather have the Deere, I like the tractor and loader better, but for lots of digging I have become acustomed to the Case. My biggest complaint with Case hoes is that the cab still feels cheap to me. Everything is plastic.. and cheap plastic and its still kind of an ugly cab. Plus their stabilizer controls on the pilot control machines...SUCK. I have had some time in Cat Backhoes, has a 420E when they first came out because my 580 Super L was down for a couple weeks. I honestly couldn't stand that machine. I think the cab looks huge on such a small tractor.. I think their ugly, the inside is great. But the hoe and loader still seemed to slow to me. On my second week with the E I had to go dig a basement, I traded one of our other guys his 580 SK Turbo and took it just so I didnt have to sit in the Cat any longer. Everyone has their choice, I have friends that swear by their Cat Backhoes, I know guys that swear behind their NH's and Deere's... and I know plenty of guys that swear AT their JCB's. At this point in the game, Cat, Case, Deere all have good solid machines. One might do one thing better than the other. But unless your super picky their all gonna please you for the most part. My ideal backhoe would be the Case Super M hoe, Deere tractor and loader, the Cummins engine, Cat interior OH and a chrome stack. Because without a chrome stack... your junk. But I would also settle for a 50th Anniversary 580 Super M2 Wide Edition....
Thats what I'm looking for is a case 580 super m + or a 590 super m. Looking to get a used one under 1,000 hours. I figure I'll save a little lettign someone else put the first scratch on it, as well as check for the occasional bug. I think since its going to be a general excavation machine, if i get a loader coupler it will be a manual one. Might splurge and get a hydraulic rear coupler though.
If your looking to run forks you don't need the quick attach. I have run a few backhoes with clip on forks where you keep the bucket on. The top of the bucket has hooks welded onto it and the forks just have a long round bar joining them that you hook. Out of all the machines I have seen it on, I saw 1 where the bar stepped back so that when the bucket is level so are the forks. They are somewhat awkward to get used to at first... but after a couple days they are fine. For snow removal... my former boss and I built a couple blades for the backhoes that slip into the bucket and are just held in with ratchet chain binders. When you slip the blade frame into the bucket and tighten it down with the binders you curl the bucket all the way up and the blade is perfectly setup for the ground, and then you disconnect the bucket cylinders and hook them to the blade. So while on the move you can angle the blade with the bucket control. We put quick connects on the bucket lines right in front of the cab. Slipping into the blade, hooking up the lines and chaining it down takes all of 5 minutes. And you can wing snow off in 3rd gear and cover tons of ground.
The deal with the snow removal is alot of the plowing in the area is done by pickups, with enough snowfall, the pickups cant stockpile the snow up and lots clog. Sometimes the snow hardens to almost ice. Then you need a bucket or a blower to move it, blades work it they are dirt moving blades like those found on graders and dozers. I was thinking of putting a blower on the loader and using that to push back already plowed snow or load trikes to haul it out.
Id take a look at a used L series. The general consences of everyone I know all like the L over the M better and I agree. Specs are specs. A good hoe operator can do the same no matter what machine wether it be a 420, 580, or 310.
If you get a Case with the Hydraulic rear coupler, make operating the rear quick coupler a part of your daily maintenance/warmup/operation. Alot of time the coupler will go unused for long periods of time and when used again it will either not retract or get stuck in the retracted position.
I'm one of those guys that swars by my NewHollands. In my experiance I found that the Cat had a very weak loader compared to the NHs. I got to try another contractor's brand new Cat (I think it was a 420) and it would dig into the pile, but the loader would not lift up or roll the bucket back :beatsme (to it's credit it was a pile of hard packed heavy clay). Then I got in my old 555C, dug in right next to the Cat and filled the bucket like it was sand (OK, it struggled a little, but it would lift and roll where the Cat just sat there and struggled). Maybe Cat has improved since then (they tend to do that) but the backhoe was about the same story. The NHs will pull themselfs around with the backhoe, (if you flip the pads over, set the parking brake, and set the front bucket in the ground you stand a chance) but I like the power when you are setting catchbasins, septic tanks and the like. They are also a bit Quicker than the Cases & Cats. That said, they all seem to get the job done, some work better than others depending on what your doing, but the dirt dosen't seem to care whats moving it.
how is the ground speed on cat, case, and NH 410G Deere is a little gut less going up hills and top out at around 18mph
580Super L2 is an animal over the road.
9600 hours on my 1998 Case 580SL. My cousin who was bad with maintenance the last few years he owned his, went 11,500 hours and the motor blew. If we slapped a motor in it, we'd still be digging with it. Mine is used as a backup machine for snow. The 580Ks were another story, Electrical problems plagued them and they rotted out real easy. I have a Cat 420D IT, and I don't think I'll get the life out it like I did my 580SL.
i've run Case (primarliy) and Deere. I like the cab of the Deere but i don't like the park brake thing. I love the Case with the stick controls. All the "big 3" backhoes are decent, people buy them all and if you have no brand loyalty then go with who gives you the best deal. The thing i don't like with the Deere and Cat is the booms are so heavy. The booms are much bigger then that of the Case. I personally also like being able to control each function with one lever. I know Cat offers this now, but i have not had a chance to get in the cab and try them out...the levers look kind of far apart though from other excavators machines that are on our sites. All the machines are quality and time proven though, Cat parts are going to be more expensive the Case but you might have a Cat dealer closer to you, just go with your gut feeling
Another thing with the Deere and Cat excavator style boom... you have 0 clearance with the back bucket. I never thought it would be an issue but I can't count the number of times I dragged the bucket on a Deer or Cat hoe pushing up a sand pile or backing down into a hole. IMHO I think the way Deere did their hoe with the over center idea on the D series was the nicest they had. As for life expectancy... my former boss had 3 Super L's the oldest with 10000hrs, and a Super K Turbo with 9700hrs and it ran like a top. I don't know what guys are getting from their Cat backhoes, but Sureway has a few 710D's where the hourmeter has rolled around already, and my old man has a 1987 310C with over 23 000hrs on it, engine was replaced at 14000hrs, has had a couple shuttle shift units and the hyd. pump rebuilt once... but that old pig will start after sitting for months. Also the old K's has major problems with the frame cracking at the hydraulic tank since the tank is part of the frame. Go into a pile of broken concrete or hard clay in 1st gear and twist the loader a bit, you crack the frame and pull the transfer case apart enough that you wont have 4wd... I got the joy of seeing the effects of such a maneuver!
Burnout do you have a picture of the homemade blade to push snow with.I'd like to see it if you do?:usa
No I don't have any pictures of the blades but the design is incredibly simple. We took a 10' Arctic Blade made for a dump truck with an A frame setup like a pickup. On the A frame we welded 3 I Beams 2ft long standing up on the frame with a slot cut into each one long ways on the beam. You slide your bucket into the slot and then chain the frame into the bucket and curl it up like I said before. I will try and make a picture for ya tonight, it's such a simple design its almost silly.
The one thing with the excavator styled curved boom is that you can work closer into the machine. I never paid much attention till last summer when I ran a 416B like the one my dad had and he mentioned the fact. Im a diehard Case man and my dad loves the case over the cat but coming from him, he'll tell you the cat was more stable and would do things such as handling road plates better. If it wernt for all the problems and headaches with the Cat it was an allright machine. Ive run plenty of cats but never really put in a full day with one. Most of my time is on Cases and a deere or two. Loading tall trucks like 10wheelers and trailers (Super L vs. 416CIT) I'm all for the Case. I wanna say the Case has about a foot more dump height. Add in a confined area and the Case is even more of an advantage. Case is more compact and in my eyes turns better. The one thing I will say is that I ran a brand new 420DIT for a day and that machine would push like a tank. Pushing piles of blasted rock mixed with gravel I was really impressed with it.
YES... you definately have to give it to Case for having an awesome machine for loading trucks. It took some time for me to get used to just firing the stick out to reach into a truck. And yes I will admit the boom came back on the lock a few times too... city guys even made me sweep the gravel off the road when I did it.
It would take me a while to get use to digging with anythan else besides a 580 right now. After a while you get use to were all the surges in the hydralics are, what slows down when you multitask what functions, how to counteract, etc. Burnout Im sure you know what Im sayin.
For sure what you get used to always seems best. I have put almost 1,000 hours on our 420D and love it as much now as the day we got it(bought with 3,000hrs). I happen to prefer it to a Super L for loading trucks. On the Case, I always found that unless I started raising the bucket way early, I usually had to get on the brakes and wait to clear the sides of the truck. The loader speed on our 420 just has a really nice balance compared to ground speed. I don't even have to think about the brakes until right against the truck. The Cases were always rentals, but well maintained, so I don't believe they were damaged:beatsme. This is one of those parts I looked at the specs and found that the Super Ls had lower hydraulic flow to the loader than to the backhoe. Why they did it I don't know, but I noticed the difference before seeing it on paper, so I don't feel I was just being biased. One thing I really liked though was the Case 3 axis loader control. You could raise, dump, and open the 4n1 without having to twist or stretch your hand. I'll agree 100% about the 420s pushing power though. Somehow they matched everything just right and it pushes like there's someone helping from behind. Let's just say that trees fear me Also, after digging with my legs crossed out the back window, everyone else can keep the old style levers and center column. Joysticks all the way for me.
Ha ha the surges of a case backhoe when digging. They kinda bugged me at first but you get used to them and realize its not that bad. I learned from this old portugese guy about doin trenching in a serious way. He showed me that you always dig with the extendahoe out about 18" and he does er all 1 function at a time. It's not quite smooth but he's like the moses of the digging world. The electric company I'm workin for is lookin at new backhoes. Their going to demo a couple different brands because no one likes their JCB's. I know there is a Deere coming next week I might have to jump in the Cat when it comes and see if maybe I was just not paying attention last time I ran a 420. Sadly I can't believe their gonna try a Terex backhoe... it will be a sad sad day in the digging world.
As far as loader speed, if its not quick enough......clutch disconnect give some throttle and get in a pattern of timing it right. I dont mind the surges. I dig with the e-hoe out about the same distance alot of the time.
Check your PM's. I might sell mine. It has everything you're looking for. I might buy a new mini-ex & skid steer or possibly a new hoe. Mine just had the 1000hr service done to it. It's loaded and has new front rubber & batteries. It has the manual coupler. Just under 1200 hrs. Excellent condition except the hood paint is peeling. Estimates were in the 400-500 range to repaint hood. Other than the hood, it's a 9-9.5 out of 10. I wanted the SuperM "+" until I demoed one. It had noticeably less power than a Super M (for reasons I can't understand, but the dealer said everyone thinks the same thing) and the stabilizers spread is very wide. So wide I had trouble fitting in tighter areas, so I bought the Super M.
That does work, but you end up burning more fuel. I wish there was a variable clutch disconnect to help inch up to trucks, this goes for all backhoes, not just Case. There's many situations that I really don't like the harshness of the on/off nature of the current type of button.
That would be a great idea, couldn't they set it up like the clutch disconnect on a loader? I am pretty sure it was an IT28G I was in with that, you slightly tap the brake pedal and it just disconnected the transmission seamlessly, and if you let out it would glide back into gear. But I've been loading trucks with a track loader the last week... I never want to go back to a rubber tired loader again. On the last bucket you just swing side to side to strike off the load... I love it!
as far as the variable clutch disconnect, IH used to have what they called a foot and inch pedal on their backhoes. These were a hydrostatic tranny compared to the current torque converter style. They had a pedal on the floor and for foreward you used your toe, and heel for reverse.
the Cat loaders have a "clutch cutout switch." Switch on the first half inch give or take, becomes a clutch disconnect. The more forward the more you brake. Its good for loading trucks but I seldom use it.
The Ford/Newhollands have a clutch disconect switch right on the loader controll lever. It is handy, but I rarely have to use it. The loader hydralics are fast enough that you don't have to unless you get your timing off. I like to time it so that I actualy start dumping as I am coming up to the truck and I am in reverse backing away from it by the time the bucket is fully dumped (in the truck of course :thumbsup).
I think most backhoes have the switch on the stick. I use it most often when doing stuff and switching between forward and reverse. I find it quicker to release the button than pull the shuttle lever down for reverse. I like to pull towards the truck and while dumping, I click the clutch disconnect button and put it in reverse so I'm ready to go and not ram the truck if I have a brain fart. If I can help it I like to be aimed downhill when loading, so I can let the machine roll towards the truck while I have the bucket over the bed and not need the transmission to do the work. Whatever works though, different strokes for different folks:drinkup
That's how I use mine. I live off my clutch disconnect button.
Yeah... wait until the clutch disconnect stops working. I was loading trucks with a 310-C with 15 000hrs on it, had a lot of really hard f/r shifts before I figured out it was the clutch disconnect not working. Is it just me or do you guys also prefer the manual linkage to the shuttle compared to the electric shift shuttles? I always found with our older 310's that you could roll up to the truck and slowly slip the transmission out of gear and the forward to reverse seemed so much smoother because the transmission didnt just drop into gear all of the sudden.
I dunno, I like the shuttle in the L case. I just spent 12 hours in it all nite plowin snow and my back is feeling it so a nice simple shuttle works for me. I hate the machines now that have the F-N-R on the loader lever. I cant get use to it for the life of me. I hopped in a friends 924G Cat and I ended up only using the shuttle. I dont use the clutch disconnect very often. The rare occasion of digging into somethan very packed or rolling a boulder around and you have to raise the loader arms before you can move forward. I do use it alot when I have somethan chained on the bucket and working to set it in place, or when Im working with someone in a trench directing me were they want the stone or sand.
That F-N-R can be confusing. I was running a JCB loader that had that and I kept going for the shifter not the switch on the control arm. Got aggravating, but I guess once you get used to it's nice.
Is that standard on machines now? I don't think I'd like that either, never tried it but I'm used to it like you guys, on the steering column. Do machines still have the option for this and not on the loader control?
I don't have the f-n-r on the stick. I was referring moving forward doing something and then let's say I have to raise the loader. I click the button for neutral so I can give it some throttle and speed up the hydraulics without moving and while that's going on I click the shuttle to reverse, so it's ready to go when I'm done. I find reverse engages quicker and a little smoother by releasing the clutch disconnect than going all the way from forward or neutral to reverse. It sounds like to many steps, but I just do it instinctively now. I could see myself getting used to the buttons for f-n-r on the stick though. One other thing I'd like to see or at least try is joysticks for steering. Have the left stick doing drive and steering functions and have the right do loader functions. It seems like a natural fit on some of the new machines with joysticks built into the seat
Just like the Cat skid steers? That'd be a good idea.
Yes, also like some of the mining loaders and also hydrostatic dozers. Less patterns to switch between would be good for everyone.