Finally got back to 977 switching tracks from my older 977K to the 977L. Seems I have an exhaust leak into the coolant. (I don't see any coolant in the oil). There are small bubbles coming up at idle. I let it run for 20-30 min. at a fastish idle and the temperature ran up to too hot. Worse yet it’s pushing oil out the exhaust manifold connection to the stack!! Left it overnight and added 2 cups of coolant. Idled for 5 min. then tried to push hard with it. Took about 5 min. and it's pushing coolant out of a loose cap and it's too hot! I'm looking for confirmation on it being a head gasket and I'm wondering if the oil is coming from the turbine bearing? The turbine spools right up and the engine is strong. The machine has been sitting for 5-6 years. I wore the tracks till they were running on the pins. I used to run it back and forth a couple times a year till I snitched the batteries 2 years ago. I was referred to a local service man with a track press. That was a relief… I feel that the machine is solid and worth additional investment. The loggers just finished taking 40 walnut trees and I would like to use the 4 in 1 bucket for cleaning up! They’re leaving the skidder for me for a bit, but I should figure out what to test before tearing into this project. Then there is getting the parts ordered from Off Road before the frosty ground is gone!! Serial #11K05251 I’ll get the engine serial # tomorrow I think it’s on the left side in the back. I am tempted to try K&W Nanotechnology Permanent Head Gasket & Block Repair. I would like to use this machine ASAP but stuff like this can… maybe weld shut partly plugged old expensive radiators and not fix the problem. Any suggestions on tests or things to service while digging deeper are most welcome!
If the machine was only worth scrap you might try a sealer (to move it a short a distance) but if it runs good fix it right especially considering the work you've already done on it. Hopefully you caught the problem early enough there's no other problems.
Having the 3rd valve makes it worth more, but there maybe other issues. I should of taken oil samples before I switched the tracks. It ran fine when I parked it and all works well now otherwise. Then again I can't say.... I haven't put it to real work after getting the moth balls out. Does anyone know about how many hours a professional would need to do the job?
cat977, i had the same problem with my 955 3304,it would push coolant out the large cap after about 15 min running, let it set for 5 min and it would cool down, turns out the rad core was plugged up, and the pc chambers were chewed up , i had the bubbles also thats where the pc chambers were shot ,corroded ,how many hours to do what ? fest
If indeed the bubbles are from coolant entering combustion chamber, watch out for hydrostatic lock. You'll bend a rod before you know what happened, if you encounter any resistance when cranking, STOP! Good luck
With 2 guys and overhead hoist I removed hood, turbo,injector lines, a few sensor wires, valve cover, rockers, push rods,& head. 4 hrs. The tricky part comes when you inspect the head and liner projection. If you were just interested in reinstalling everything with just a new head gasket, then it could be done in 1 10 hr day, drain and refill oil and top off coolant.
Brock Thanks for giving me a time estimate. You had 2 977K's I believe. Did your dad buy them? Fest You must be talking about precombustion chambers? I don't really know anything about them do they get cooled by the antifreeze? Is there any easy way to find out if the radiator is plugged? I haven't looked but can you remove the top tank with the radiator still installed? This is a 3306 motor but I didn't get to the serial # yet to make sure. I have a local tech that should be showing up soon to help figure this out. Time is of the essence, one slope started melting today!
You would be well advised to strip the oil coolers down totally and clean out the water passages. tctractors.
Thanks Tc! On the right hand side there is a round cooler I believe is the engine oil cooler. Are you thinking I should add the trans and hydrolic oil cooler also? I believe they are in front of the radiator. Seems take your time and dot the I's and cross the T's. maybe in order.
I'll second the oil cooler. Ours was plugged and kept taking out the pre cup orings. TC is the one who told me about it. After cleaning the oil cooler it then plugged the radiator just like he said it would. Pre cup orings leak to the outside of the engine though.
Hi Shawn The radiator top tank is removable, you can look into top where cap is and get an idea of what the tubes look like. I usually use a temp gun on rad to check for big temp differences. Yes my dad had many 977Hs & Ks. I bought a few myself after he retired in 1980. You might want to verify the water pump is up to snuff after the thermostat has opened the flow at half throttle should be obvious at the cap. The heat gun is your friend, check anywhere water flow can be shot with the gun. Like others have said those coolers can't be overlooked. Look for easy stuff first. Nick
Thanks Nick! I think checking all the easyer stuff before I disable the engine would be wise. Figuring out what all a person would want to do and what parts to have on hand helps things go smoothly when a helper is on hand. You added some good tips! I use a temp gun but never thought about using it to trace functions...??? The voice of experience. At least I checked the sprocket for movement before switching tracks! In my hurry I didn't do much more. "Haste makes Waste" just too often. I had gotten the other 977K fluffed up and gave it a shot to get the 977L up and going with the added grouser stock on the front of triple grouser pads (tall tracks). Now with ice scattered around here it would be the champ! 2nd day on the skidder and I'm beat! Cheers Shawn
977, yes the pc chambers are surrounded by coolant they get very hot, i mean real hot because thats where the combustion takes place, they can get pin holes, and corrode letting combustion into cooling system . its about 4 to 6 hrs to pull radiator , take hood off and go straight up with radiator, i guess you could just pull top tank and hook a water hose too bottom outlet and seal it off run water then rod it out with a long oil dip stick from top , when i did my 955 there was about 3 pounds of scale and rust in top tank, its hard to see the core from top because there is a baffle just under the large round cap but you can a little under the small cap pretty sure the 977 is the same way, fest
Thanks fest! Just got off the skidder, this logger is doing me a BBBBig... favor! I'm not a motor man much less a diesel guy but is there compression tests for diesels? Should I replace pc cups even if they don't leak or is it best to leave well enough alone? Could open a can of worms, but doing it on the bench has to be easier. There’s a little river starting on the trail.... If I can get the Tech to come over he may do a lot by himself. If If If... Cheers Shawn
replacing the cup is not a hard job, yes there are compression testers check ebay, there not that much, the only way too check the cups is too pull them, you need a special tool its only 20 bucks cat 5f8353, i really can't advise you on pulling them , pulling the head and that not being the problem is costly , cleaning the radiator is number 1 i think, then if your still getting bubbles check the cups there real easy to do about 3 hours max, if they are ok put new o rings and seats you wont be out much and the problem is else where, sunk liners is a major problem meaning dropping pan pulling pistons and liners and if lucky just shims if not" portable machine work", and it is high just doing the cups i think will not open a can of worms, pulling the head who knows where that can lead, after market cups are about 30 bucks a pop if you buy a kit its a lot less, 6 cups orings and seats,if you go after market try to get the ones made in italy, oem are about 80 bucks each, i went after market and every thing went fine, but some other members here wont touch them with a 10 foot pole, its almost like a crap shoot with after market, clean that radiator and see how it does. fest
Do you have a Parts Manual for it yet.? If not you really need one for all the odd gaskets, seals, and o-rings that you'll need to replace whether you go into the radiator, coolers, or pre-combustion chambers. This is the one you need.
Thanks to both of you!!! Got off the skidder for the night! All the manuals are in hand Nige! Boy if the answer is not the head I would be overjoyed!!! I'm thinking the Tech has a boom so the hood and nose comes off easily. We can do some testing (before that the Nick temp gun tests by me!). Then I can clean all the coolers. I was thinking of using muriatic acid if it is still available. How would you know if the old cups are good? Time for a good dinner and some sleep. Cheers Shawn
A service manual obviously has a lot more information in respect of disassembly & assembly but it's amazing what you can interpret from a Parts Manual drawing if you have half a brain. Honestly if you have no definite confirmation that's where the problem is then I wouldn't consider suggesting to pull the head off before having a go at everything else that has been mentioned up to this point like radiator, coolers, pre-cups, etc.
If you could lay your hands on a borescope and look inside the combustion chambers, could see if cylinder walls are washed clean from water entering the chamber. I have one that hooks up to Ipad, nice big sceen. Nick
If your head isn't spinning enough yet, there is a combustion leak tester that can determine weather the bubbles your seeing are caused by, you guessed it, combustion! It's a fluid that is placed in a glass tube kinda like a hydrometer testing battery specific gravity. The fluid changes color in the presence of gas, I think green. Nick
Again clean the oil cooler and the radiator. I the transmission cooler and hydraulic cooler are usually air cooled . So they have no effect on overheating unless they are blocking the radiator air flow.
Thanks!! Nick and oarwhat Seems new technology has been added to old school experience!!! You've stayed busy! Never heard of sneak a peek hooking up to a big screen that they don't own and want to sell to you. "Proprietary" lol!!!. I guess these worms can be directed to turn corners too. The frackers do it.... My head is spinning, I thought it was from the skidder..... Transmission and hydraulic coolers ya just clean the fins duh.... Mental note Shawn relaxe, don't fix it if it ain't broke.... Cheers Shawn
The temperature gun will tell you where the heat is getting and not getting. If the radiator is working correctly, I think there's supposed to be 20F difference between top and bottom temps, when it's fully hot, that is the thermostat is open all the way, near overheating. The problem with that measurement is if the radiator is plugged inside just as much as outside, it will show the same temp drop, but not be moving much water, or air. For temps you're working in now, it doesn't need top performance out of the radiator, it needs a little less than fully plugged! So blowing it out with compressed air on the outside, to get the mud and sticks out. Backflush the radiator with both hoses and cap removed, a garden hose running in the top, an air gun and a rag stuffed in the bottom, let it overflow then blast a shot of air, repeat until you don't get any more sediment. Miserable job in this weather, and not as good as rodding every tube out, but you don't have to take it out. I couldn't say if there's a way to backflush the oil cooler in place or if that has to come apart. The biggest question is if you have a combustion leak that's causing the loss of coolant, and then overheating. Or if you just have a plugged up cooling system, that's overheating, and then losing coolant. If you stop before it gets hot enough to lose coolant, does it need more or not?
That would be for a new radiator operating at absolutely peak efficiency. On this machine any difference beteween top and bottom hoses of around 15F would be acceptable I think.
Delmer, you have an excellent course of action that doesn't cost any money. Nige, I love the way you dig up the spec's! I'm exhausted... they're picking up the skidder. Shucks.... Foot Doc tomorrow. Top and bottom split, good check on efficiency! Take off the grill and clean the fins. Temp gun should work in sections from the front. The engine oil cooler should show a good in and out temp split too. You guys are giving me some Great Clues!! Now for some dinner. That bed is already looking Good! I haven't worked this hard since I retired!!! Cheers Shawn
Make sure to take pics Shawn, for the benefit of us all in the future ! Cheers and good luck Chris
Picture records are soooo.... good to have in the record. So well said Chris! "A picture is worth a thousand words". Now we are down to the operator. I seem to be lacking in the operation of Google photos, they're in my phone, in the cloud, now if I could well... We have a nice coating of wet snow. In pic on the Cat. A real nice Timber Jack skidder with the Cat. Tracks that say don't put new segments on a Cat with old rails. Tech is busy, I'm busy with a grapple on that 1998 Gehl next to the tracks, now with a grapple on. There are some real warm temps coming and I'm not sure what comes next could be the Cat. Then again fishing with the utility truck 4x4 has some merit. It just keeps changing with new ideas or new help. I have some big dead Red Elms I would love to pull out in one piece to send to the top of the hill (could sit up there 50 years and still be good I think). Good job for a 977L with tall tracks on half frozen ground. It's been going good! Steady progress. I sure dream of the days when I was younger... and hit sun down and say what's next! Cheers to all the Great Help!! Shawn If you post the links in a Google browser they should work.... https://photos.app.goo.gl/J8cBiBMYqMvYrtQy8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/7mbGVr18GtzvHisg6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/W2EWt8MVW6zn5TkS8
The engine oil is cooled by water, this water feeds into a transmission oil cooler that then lets the water enter the cylinder block, the coolers peg up with crap constantly on older equipment, it's not hard or costly to strip and rod out the water tubes. tctractors
tctractors Thanks for pointing out what you've picked up on the job! The time of well frozen ground may be done except for the north sloping area. So Tall tracks 977L’s best time will be next winter. I think 6”x1”tallx½” cleats on the front of triple grousers maybe a good enough ice biter for around here. My tall ones will come in handy for that pull up the hill! I've found the Tall studded 4wd 65hp construction tractor to be working well in shallow snow, ice and mud. Working the burn pile with beafy forks (3500 lb rated machine) with a 55 gallon drum of rocks and cement on the 3pt is a good setup. The skid steer with grapple did well when the footing was good for the metal tracks. Its been real nice for picking and stacking small stuff. There are 2 separate burn piles and the easy/close stuff is done and burned. On the biggest pile set in the woods the logger jumped in the skidder for the first time since he dropped it off and toured the place with me. I rode along (advised for learning) it was like a rodeo roundup! He tucked big long stuff in here and there but mostly he went around the pile in circles and would dip in smashing brush and breaking off long sections shifting the pile around, condensing it while causing it to rise in height and herding it to our new location. Got to love machines that are big enough to be a bully and nimble enough to get things done quick. He said they don’t make them this small anymore. Bare frozen ground and clean brush did make it an easier job. Articulating machines makes going in circles a piece of cake. The other pile was an old brush pile that I dragged tops onto with large ends pretty much on the same side. I strapped a pallet to the forks for an elevated stand to pour accelerant onto the densest part of the pile. Burn out the center and twist and break the pieces starting at the large ends. Ramming into the center to bust it up helped also. Well just checking back….. Could be awhile till I get back on the 977L. I’ll be sure to post some good pictures posted for "Chris" and the other 977 fans! Best of luck to all the HEF Fans!! Shawn
Finally got back to it. Tec showed how once heated up, throttling up would push the radiator to overflowing, throttle down and it's OK. His opinion "we need to rod out the radiator, it's too plugged to do the job". The oil and trans. coolers will also be cleaned out. I see cores are $2500 and think pulling the radiator and doing a thorough job maybe in order. We both have lifts and share work splitage as friends. Thankfully his opinion is not a head gasket. I wonder once the core is separated is the use of chemicals like muriatic acid a good idea? Spring is on the Rise! Cheers
I have used muriatic acid to clean copper heat exchange tubes for a swimming pool heater. The setup was more of a pain in the butt than actually doing the job. You will still need to rod the tubes out to make sure that each one can pass liquid through before starting the acid treatment. The acid should be warmed to improve its effectiveness and the process watched carefully to ensure you don't go too far. You may find out that you have thin spots in the rad tubes and generate some leaks if the rad is getting "worn out". But better to find them now than out in the field doing something! The other thing is how to get the acid to flow thru each tube so you know each is clean. A little pump that can handle acid comes to mind...more fiddling around to find something. And finally, how to properly dispose of the acid...I think you neutralize it by adding a bunch of baking soda to it until the reaction quits bubbling and foaming. An internet search is your friend here. It may be better to take the cores you want cleaned (rad, oil cooler?) to a rad shop for the chemical cleaning to take advantage of their experience and setups. If they find some leaks you can decide if you want to fix them yourself or have the shop do it. Good luck and keep us posted! Jon.
I called a radiator shop near me and they want the radiator in one piece. So its they look and they deside which is best. They are indeed in the business. Flushing in place is looking like a better idea, but I want to do it, and forget it. Then again if they say new core after trying we get $$. They were not interested in the serial # for a bid on recoring, said it means nothing to them. They want it in shop and will measure it for a recore. Maybe I look, clean, and test, and buy a core on my own if needed. To me paying more and not hasseling with it is good. Going to the cleaners is not so much.
If you want to try to flush it yourself, remove the cap and both hoses, stick a running garden hose in the top, stick a rag and air blow gun in the bottom, once it overflows give it a little shot of air, repeat until you get no more sediment, giving bigger shots of air as you progress. Clean the oil cooler like TCT has said. Could run it with rainwater a few times for a few hours each, and repeat until there's no more sediment in the drained water. You don't need good circulation, barely any circulation at all will be plenty if you're operating this thing only in winter.
We had this same issue on a loader only used for snow. Tried backflushing, chemicals etc. with no luck. Our bush fix was cut a hole in the top of the radiator and rod it out. Then make a cover and tap the radiator for bolts to hold it in place. It had to be cleaned on three separate occasions until it wouldn't overheat. We used an electricians wire fish for rodding. I think we doubled up the fish for better cleaning. We also stuck a big magnet in there to catch the rust.
Cat977, did you ever figure this out? I have a 977H with a newer 3306 in it. It’s leaking oil out of the exhaust stack. The oil drain line on the turbo is unobstructed and I’m trying to determine where to look next. Just wondering if you ended up having leaking precups and if that caused your oil leak at the exhaust
Sorry to say that job has been sidelined... And it could be awhile the honeydo list has added finish the basement! I may enjoy her she cave just as much as her! Keep us posted!