Just a quick question, i have seen many cautions about using ether starting fluid due to the damage it can cause. can you mix a small amount of gasoline [maybe 1 cup full] into a gallon of diesel and put it into a 1 gallon sprayer and set the nozzle to a fine mist and introduce that to the intake close as possible to the intake manifold to aid in starting? or get it to run on the spray long enough to move or load it on a trailer. I have seen some videos on the old international dozers that started on gas with the compression release activated then switch over to diesel after a short warm up so i wondered if this would work on newer tractors and equipment without damaging it.
Personally, I am not of the "one sniff of ether, she dies" crowd. Overdosing isn't good for it, and it is best if you can spray lightly while it is turning. One alternative that works well is to soak a rag with gasoline and put it in the air filter housing. Make SURE it can't suck the rag into the intake. I don't think a cup of gas in a gallon of diesel is going to be volatile enough to do anything.
Are you talking about a specific engine? or just in general? the IH engines that started on gas had a way to lower the compression ratio, and had carburetor and spark plugs also. I've heard of using gasoline fumes for starting, not sure why that would be better than ether? Ether is used because it ignites at a lower temp than diesel, gasoline is a higher autoignition temp than diesel. If it's not cold, then you shouldn't need starting aids, and if it is cold, then ether is arguably the best. You can start and run an engine with a spray can of starting fluid, just have to be careful. Loading it that way is a bit of a stretch.
I'm like mitch504, I'm not scared to appropriately use starting fluid to start an engine, but from what you described that's not the first thing you need to do. We know it's a tractor and we know it's been sitting for years. First of all, I hope we're not talking about an old Detroit, that's a whole nuther thing. If it's not, make sure you're working with fresh, fully charged hot batteries, we don't need cranking to labor. Second, it's been sitting for years, there's going to be virtually no lubrication of the piston and rings initially and no oil pressure. You need to open the intake piping as close to the manifold as you can. Start cranking the engine and spray some WD40 into the intake, this will at the least put some form of lubricant into the cylinders and may even help fire it off. Do this for a a couple of times in cranking spurts of 5 to 10 seconds with a good minute of rest in between. See if you have smoke coming from the exhaust when doing this. If all is looking good, start cranking the engine giving it just light snorts of starting fluid while it's cranking, not necessarily to start it but just to see if it tries to respond. If all still looks good, give the snorts just a bit more and see if it lights up. By this time you should have created oil pressure and have fuel moving through the system if all is good. I'm not a fan of using gasoline in the open air for anything, that stuff can go WOOFFFF really quickly.
One of the best starting fluids is WD40 or something else similar. It lubricates the bore. I'd never use ether again even on a reasonably good engine
Personally, I wouldnt hesitate to give it a sniff to see if it barks.. I need a smidge more info tho.. Does it have glow plugs,?? Does it have a hand primer in the fuel system somewhere.? Have u loosened the fuel INLET hose closest to the inj. pump to expell the air thats trapped in the line.? If applicable, do u have voltage to the inj. pump shut-off solenoid.? If its a manual shut-off, is the cable in the "run" position.?? Have u loosened the steel lines AT THE INJECTORS to expell the air.??
thank you all for you insight. this is a very helpful site. i am not very experienced in diesels yet," other than farm tractors". after i retired this year i have begun to look at the social media sales adds for an affordable farm dozer and tractor to buy without massive expense. most i see have serious problems [final drives, steering clutches etc. ] but some have just been parked for years due to lack of use. those are the ones i am seeking. i have noticed there is nothing cheap about heavy equipment repairs so i am approaching it very cautiously. i just don't have a semi to haul them so the ability to at least make them move under their own power to load is a thing. it appears hard to get a tracked unit to load by just a 12k lb. electric winch so i was hoping for a manual solution to keep one running externally long enough to load it similar to introducing gas carefully but manually into the intake of the carburetor of a lawn mower.
thank you for the advice on starter fluid too. i had used wd40 in times past as a starter fluid for lawn mowers and cars, but when they changed the formula many years ago due to the cans catching fire the starter fluid characteristic at least on small engines for me was lost, and i haven't tried it on a diesel. i had heard of hanging the rag over the intake but it had been many years ago and i had forgotten about it. mainly looking for a way to load a dozer tht has been sitting without damaging the motor on the same day i buy it instead of having to hire a semi with a pto winch and return at a future time. looking at a case 350-450, cat d3-4 or Komatsu d20-21 sized machine so in the 8k lb. to 17k lb. weight class.
thanks willie59 that is a great place to start
My view on ether is this. Many diesel engines will start, even in winter, with no ether or anything else. So first, I will hook a battery up and get it to crank real good. If it does not crank quickly, ether is not the answer, fixing the problem is. Then once it is cranking good, it needs to be injecting fuel. An engine that is ready to start, but too cold, will blow thick clouds of atomized fuel (thick white smoke) out the exhaust. If it is not injecting fuel, ether will not make it run. Finally, if all of the above are good and it does not fire, a little whiff of ether will usually get it going. You don't want to give it so much ether that the ether itself is the propellant. Almost any amount of ether will fire in the cylinder and that will light off the fuel that is already being injected and it will take off at that point. Sometimes it will not stay warm enough after the first round of running and in that case you may spray a little more to help it along until it can run on its own. On small engines, are talking spritzes directly into the intake for a quarter second, or less. Almost as little as it is physically possible for you to spray. On large engines it may take significantly more. I have tried gasoline, other flammable sprays, unlit propane, etc. and none ever worked in the slightest for me. I don't see how they can. Ether detonates under compression and that is why it works, none of the others really do when cold. The only other things that have worked for me have been a lit torch in the intake, held while cranking and even helping it along getting up to speed, and an electric heat gun done the same way. They also work very nicely. Engines will run on ether if you spray enough, but that does not prove it can run on its own, and that is what can damage the engine, because the detonation is uncontrolled.
Gas in a spray bottle will fire a diesel a little gentler than either loading while under spray No way that would be foolish and unsafe As far as buying a machine not running unless your made of money dont do it thats voice of experience speaking Why do you think they sat parked lack of use either the seller is lying or grampa parked it 20 years ago because expensive repairs were needed and now nobody knows whats wrong so it must be in good shape after all they saw him using it when they were 5
Total agreement here.
We used to use either by the case when we had big dirt spreads working in below freezing temperatures. We never, ever damaged an engine from using it. You gotta keep your head out of your a## when using it tho. Keep the either can at least two feet away from the air cleaner opening. Doing so dilutes the concentrated spray. Sometimes in below zero weather we had to spray it directly into the air cleaner. Even then you need to be very careful to prevent locking the motor up from pre-detonation.
thank you all very much for all of your insight. i appreciate it. i will rethink my approach. it appears it is better to have a running machine so you can see the faults it has in action. pay a little more up front to avoid a wallet drain on the back end..
Equipment used to come with ether installed on a lot of equipment for a starting aid. Once they developed glow plugs, ether was removed. Invariably, the can was empty when you needed it.
A JD engine in a machine I purchased new in 2007 had an ether can on it. I removed it before they started doing the PD.
You mean that yellow button on the dash is not the power button for hard pulls
No this one was worse, it was connected to the puter.
You can load a lot of machine with a 12,000 lb. winch. You just need a few snatch blocks and part the line as many times as necessary. If you don't understand multi part lines google something like "how to reeve a 4 part line". You don't need a 4 part block. I have used multiple single snatch blocks we carry when offroad playing many times. If the tracks won't turn, jack up one side at a time and lay down two planks with 1" pipe rollers in between to make a roller out of it instead of a slider. Yes, there is bull work involved with building the simple roller system but it works well and is dirt cheap if you have the time and are not afraid of work.
I believe the original question was to start run a machine on ether that has set a long time. I have often started Cat machines that set for 20 years with no issues.(See 1939 D8 Snowplow on HEF in 2019). Pre bio-diesel fuel could set for 20 years or more and start and run fine with it. If you got fuel going thru the system ether should not be needed. thepumpguysc started the OP on the right track and that is the track to follow in my opinion. Unless its cold out with a known good engine that just needs a kick to start I'd leave the ether home.
I agree with others but will only add that if it's cold instead of using ether I would open the intake inlet and preheat the air with a torch while cranking. Stuff a palm tree in there.
Thanks: Explains why I never have any luck starting anything with it anymore.
All starting fluid and diesels are not created equal. Compression ratios and cylinder sizes create variables. Some have very low tolerance for the stuff. A JD that was very sensitive to the little I have left would run on the stuff from the convenience store. Many engines fire well off a gas rag. If you are worried about cylinder lubrication also spray WD40 in it or use chainsaw gas. Old VW diesel I worked on would react the same if I peed in it as it did to starting fluid. Get the fuel system, timing, glow plugs right and it would start. Some brake cleaner does OK and is milder on high compression engines.
An outfit I worked for had a small milling machine that would lock up when you used any starting fluid .Had to use the torch .
That's all I ever use. When it's real cold and tractors setting on the line start having extended crank time I wheel the torch out remove the CAC boot to intake strike a mild flame. Hold it back just so the tip of the flame is at opening of intake warm the air inside turn the key and it will fire right off, With no possible damage. install CAC boot while idling. There is no sense in burning up starter motors, straining batteries, overheating battery connections and possibly causing piston ring damage or worse using ether when it only takes about ten minutes to get the job done by heating the intake air. JMO.
If it is idle that long ,I would me looking at the oil pressure guage ,if it has a working one .Maybe your diesel is different over there but I have come by a few stuck fuel racks on long parked units with inline pumps which could cause the engine to rev to destruction should it fire . I like the WD40 idea even if it doesnot work any more . A little lube is always good . I have often got an oil can to put oil into the manifold or into an inlet port or 2 if possible for an out of the bushes restart . I found it gave compression where there was none . As for ether ,I rarely use it but when I do , a small squirt before cranking and the stroll back into the cab instead of jumping like a lunatic gives it time to dilute in the air so it doesnt all hammer down on one piston
I leased a stationary sawmill for a year or so when I was 19. It was run by a cutoff B-model with a Thermodyne. Above 40, crank in just a couple of revolutions, below 30, never crank. Give it a light hit of ether, start instantly down into the teens. I went to Walmart to get some more, all they had was "environmentally safe". I bought a case. Spray a little bit, nothing; spray a lot, nothing. I found an old can with just fumes, it started the engine immediately. I sprayed some in a paper cup and threw it in the fire, nothing. Spray it straight in the fire, nothing!
Flame retardent easy start. Great stuff
I try to use WD or something similar first too, especially if it's been sitting. In winter up north we'll often have a torpedo heater or two with us too that we can run off one of our welders to heat up an engine, that really helps.
Fired a DD15 this morning that has issues, using a torch. Timed it start to finish-6 minutes.
We had a pettibone crane v6 cummins it needed a shot first start when it was a 100 but at 20 below give it a shot and it would also start.
I've got an old bobcat 743 that needs a snort of ether no matter what the ambient temp is when the block is cold. After it's been warmed up, it touches off right quick on its own.
if you happen to have a power outlet near a cranky cold engine a heat gun works as well as a torch. will put 1200 deg. heat straight into the intake
I would have to have alot of extension cord-but yes a heat gun will work also.
I got elected one winter in ind.ind. to get a friends 60 series started in about 11-12 below 0 weather after it had sat there in the yard since the end of oct. I used 2 batt,chrgrs a high powered heat gun and a very little bit of ether. when that thing did finally light off I don`t think I HAVE EVER HEARD the noise out of any other eng. on a cold start that came out of that one
Definition of cold to me is? Cold to me is when the engine fires and the exhaust from that fire layers about four feet above the pipe. Ether time.