I have an early (1964?) JD 450 loader with the 4219d engine. Smokes bad out the breather tube and the stack. Even worse under load. Uses some oil and coolant but never mixes the two. Oil pressure is good. Trans works well, undercarriage is 70-80%. I’m thinking of doing an in-frame rebuild. New sleeves, pistons, rod bearings and have the head redone. Is a JD kit the way to go? Are there any aftermarket kits that are reliable? I’m planning on radiator boil out and new water pump and hoses at same time.
Better off to pull the engine in my opinion, sounds like a blown head gasket, which was common in my experience. You can get the head done, but if you want it to hold you need to get the block decked and the liner counterbores (If I'm remembering right) done at the machine shop. Make sure you ask them to double check the block webs with the liners removed, we had a couple that the inside web cracked along the length of the block most likely from some idgit over-torquing the head bolts in a failed attempt to keep head gaskets in them.
Ok thanks. I will know more when it gets into the shop. Does JD actually make these sleeves and pistons or are they just rebadged aftermarket? I want a good liner/piston but would be nice to save a bit on the rebuild. What's the best aftermarket option?
I've used rebuild kits from Agkits. They used name brand parts like FP pistons and fel pro gaskets. Give them a call and see what's in there kit. They were very helpful on the phone.
Thanks! I'll give them a call. I'm thinking I should test compression before I remove the head. It starts really hard now. But reading about that it may be pump timing also. Of course the oil usage and smoking out stack and bad out of the breather tells me it probably time for sleeves and pistons.....
Curious if it sat for a number of years or if it slowly went south over time. If it may have sat it could be stuck rings. No harm in working the crap out of it for 3 to 4 hours at high temperature, close to hot but not boiling over. Put a big disc or pull some big trees with the branches on and smooth some ground well you are at it. Coolent is concerning. No signs of where it is going. Is the cap good?
It was used infrequently before I purchased it. I’ve worked it hard clearing and digging. Coolant usage is not consistent. I have not tested the cap. The smoke from the breather tube is heavy and worsens under load. It uses oil. No coolant in the oil. Oil pressure is great.
Chances are as you worked it hard when warm its worn out and not stuck. Old Cat engines were notorious for smoking and drooling when not worked hard enough. A little work saved a lot of overhauls on them and cheap to try.
Yes. I’ve seen some older diesel tractors that stopped smoking and wet stacking after a few hours of snorting. I’m thinking this engine is going to need to come apart. I’m sure I’ll have more questions after it gets into to shop. With the oil pressure holding as good as it does, I’m hoping the main bearings and crank are still good.
We had a 450 dozer. Always ran great. After sitting one winter it wouldn't start. Even ether didn't help at all. The rings were stuck so bad when the pistons were out rings came out in pieces. Didn't bother trying to remove them just installed new pistons.
This engine has been a hard starter since I've had it. It needs ether to start usually. I've heard there are kits that help w starting, higher compression? I think Reliance makes one.
Well, I got the head off and found the blow by issue. Number 3 piston/sleeve was in bad shape. I don’t see any head gasket failure. I’m wondering what caused this. Fuel issues?
The piston top appears to be very clean in the photo. Yes ? Do they all look like that ? One clean piston indicates water intrusion when running.
It was similar to the others. I wiped it down to look for any identification. See if it was JD piston or another brand.
Broken top ring.
Which is caused by a dirt from a bad airfilter
Been a few years since I've a four banger JD head off but it looks to me the valves are worn up into the head enough to cause lower compression and harder starting, a real problem for deere back in that vintage. If you have a really good machine shop nearby, you might be by with boring the bad hole and refitting with an oversized piston, and all new rings in the other three holes, if not buy the whole kit and put them all in new. As for what brand of kit to buy, not sure its that critical unless your putting a lot of hours on this machine every year and plan to keep it for 10k hours or more. As for if its got deere pistons in it or not, don't think I'd worry much about it myself, any good machine shop can get whatever you need to put it back together, don't think deere makes their parts for machines that old any more anyhow, think they bid that stuff all out and just stick their own logos on the box anyhow. If I recall, Dubuque Iowa is where that engine was made back in the day, I'd bet money they don't have any of the tooling to even make those parts today themselves.
Thanks. I don’t use it daily by any means. It’s a “farm use” machine. It’s darn handy to have around and I’m going to put all new sleeves and pistons in it. I’m going to check on a Reliance kit. I’ve been told they have a kit that makes starting easier. If not I’ll check on Agkits.com and see what they can do. I’m not opposed to doing it right even though it’s not my daily money maker. I am going to have the head decked and valves redone for sure. I really only want to do this once. Then I’ll sort out the left steering clutch that’s not great... otherwise it’s been a solid machine that saves me time and gets projects done so much quicker.
I did replace all filters and fluids when I got it. It has always smoked from the breather and stack since I got it. (Gotten much worse recently) Maybe that’s the initial cause years ago? It’s always been a hard starter, it’s needed a shot starting fluid to start when cold since I got it.
I do not think you need a kit for easier starting. That engine wouldn't start because it was so worn out.
True! I’m going to check the main bearings and get a kit ordered soon. Dropping the head off next week. I really appreciate all the input. I’m a pretty good wrench but this is the first old diesel I’ve been deep into. All insight and advice is appreciated.
Your going to have the engine out anyhow, on those machines its so much easier to work on once it out of the loader or dozer. When out, if I recall, maybe a dozen bolts and it comes out with the radiator, pump and clutch, but its been almost 20 years ago now since I took mine out. Do a complete tear down of the engine, pull the crank and cam, have them both checked over at an engine shop for wear, same for the rocker assembly, pull the sleeves and pistons, basically tear it down to the block, take everything in and have them check it over for wear, it will probably need new bushings for the cam. Take the injectors and pump in a pump shop and have that gone through as well, most likely the injectors will need to be rebuilt so the spray pattern is right and the pop off is set correctly, that helps a lot with starting, the head will definitely need to be done, the more the valves wear up into the head, the lower the compression is in the engine causing a major hard starting issue. Get new sleeves and pistons and put those in, the engine shop will check for the top of the block to see if it needs to be planed or not, then put it all back together again. Have the flywheel surfaced and put new front and rear main seals in, if it were mine, more than likely I'd put in a new clutch since its handy and apart and have the ring gear checked over as well, it only ends up stopping on four spots on the ring gear, have someone heat it up and turn the ring gear just a little and when it cools you have four new wear surfaces for the starter to hit again, have the starter gone through, if it were mine have the alternator checked over as well, since its apart and handy. If it has a turbo, see if its leaking at all, if it is, find out if you can put a new cartridge in it or buy an aftermarket turbo and install that, some had them others didn't, they are a basic altitude compensating turbo, not a huge hp gainer, but the turbo helped them start better, hence deeres idea at the time to improve the starting issue they knew about but did nothing to remedy in those engines. While the parts are away being gone over, take the fuel tank off and pressure wash it out, use a bore scope and look inside to see how badly rusted it is, if its badly rusted, either figure out how to get it cleaned out, shot blasted or whatever to clean it up, those steel fuel tanks have been a huge pain in the a@@ lately for rust issues with my own stuff, replace all the fuel lines with new rubber lines, if its got steel fuel lines on it, throw them away and put on good quality rubber lines, then put at least one cheap inline fuel filter on it before it gets to the engine, somewhere easy to replace. Beware of a simple truth of those vintage engines deere put out, even new they were not the best starting, so I'd put a nice block heater if it has a port in the block for one you can get at, and also a tank heater before you put the engine and assembly back in so you can plug the heater in when it gets colder out, as in anything under 40 or 50 degrees it needs to be plugged in so you don't have to use either, even brand new, the bulk of those engines needed to be warmed up with a heater in order to start without either. If your comparing them to any more modern engine, your in a for a very disappointing feeling once you get it back together, all the above will help, but it will still not start like any modern diesel built today. I've been around hundreds of those engines over the years, from trenchers, to tractors, generators you name it those engine were put in everything back in the day and as one guy once told me, they need a block heater or they catch a cold every time they are left out in the cold. With putting two heat sources on the engine, a block heater as well as a tank heater, you have a second option WHEN one quits working to warm it enough to start the engine till you have time to replace the one that doesn't work, my 450 crawler loader has both on it and it too needs all the above done, but when done, it will again have two options to plug it in, if it were in a tractor, no bid deal those are easy to get at to replace, but a dozer or especially a loader, you need to raise the loader in order to get at the engine, which means it has to start to raise the loader, then another hour to find the heater and a couple more to actually replace it is the reason why I put two on my own loader. The tank heater on mine is up inside the lever compartment tucked up under the dash, up enough so its out of the way, but still able to get at if it doesn't work to replace it without having to start the engine and raise the loader up in the air, I just routed the hoses up through the impossible engine compartment to where I could still get it to work, that way the heat cord is zip tied to the hand grab handle I use to haul my fat butt up onto the tracks to climb into the seat. The next newer vintage four banger starts a whole lot better than the vintage you have, and yes I do have both vintages of engine I still use, along with a newer version still, each newer vintage starts a lot better and with colder temps than the version it took the place of. Compression and fuel spray pattern were the two big things that helped the starting of those engines, that and having a place to plug them into when it gets cold out. Best of luck.
Thanks Randy88! I'm getting deeper into this engine as we speak. Got the pistons and liners out. #3 piston was terrible. I have the head at the machine shop as we speak. The crank bearings looked great, no excessive wear. Crank has already been turned once. its 10 under currently. New valve kit and a check of valve seats. the guides are tight so that helps. I have a new starter ready to go in along with new fuel pump. My machine shop recommends a Reliance kit, now that I have the main bearing sizes I'll get that ordered.
good thing you didn't run it much longer. if i remember correctly, some updated engine kits used pistons with the top ring moved higher up to help prevent so much carbon buildup above the top ring under normal use. i seem to remember the green deere advertising as such so i'm assuming the yellow deere was likely the same
Been a few years since I've investigated the whole starter thing, deere ran those absolutely worthless delco starters, I know I've spent well over 40k in starters alone over the years, see if you can get a denso gear reduction starter for that engine, well worth whatever you have pay for it to replace the delco's. I think I've bought about a couple dozen of the good jap starters from deere over the years to replace those delco's, long before any aftermarket units were available, not to mention dozens more of off brand gear reduction starters to replace even more of those crappy delco's, matter of fact I spent the entire day today taking a spare worthless Delco I have for one of my semi's in to figure out what gear reduction starter I can get to replace both the one currently on the semi and also the spare I took in to figure out what gear reduction it takes to get the job done. If I recall from memory, that 450 of mine is about the only machine I have not yet replaced with a gear reduction starter, all the rest of those four banger deeres have been converted over, I just can't remember what brand they were. I can one up your piston, a few years ago, we took a four cylinder cummins apart, when we dropped the piston out of the sleeve, the pin fell in two and so did the piston itself, the entire bottom half of the piston skirt was gone and in the drain pan, it wore a hole through the sleeve and dumped all the water into the pan, closest I ever came to having a rod go through the block that's for sure. Also make sure nobody screwed up and forgot to drill a hole in the wrist pin end of the rod assembly, that's what caused the failure on the cummins, the overhaul kit never had an oil hole in it to lube the wrist pin in the piston, ran over 1000 hours before it failed though. Some of the things you learn the hard way along the road of life. I didn't do that overhaul, but I also never caught when we did the tear down, took the machine shop a few days to realize it as well, like the guy said, you just take it for granted you just overlook it, it wasn't until he was done and putting things back in the plastic to ship out did he finally see it.
I believe your engine has a water outlet in the back of the head that you can connect the return end of a tank heater to. If I remember right I screwed a street ell into it to get it to the side. As stated a few posts above get it in while the engine is out and you can get to it easily.
Starter upgrade was typically Denso back in the day. If I haven't said it before here (oldtimers brain cramps) after you pull the liners inspect the block carefully through the liner holes, preferably have it hot tanked and inspected, the internal webs below the deck running the length of the block internally had a tendency to crack, especially if some gorilla over torqued the head fasteners in a vain attempt to help a head gasket seal up. Basically after that the whole deck just vibrates up and down, it will never hold head gaskets.
I dropped the rods off at the machinist to get the bushings honed. I will certainly check for the oil hole but I hope he does before I get them back. I considered a gear reduction starter but I have a new starter of the old type in my parts stock so I'll probably just use it.
The head gasket showed no indication of failure. The radiator is getting tanked and cleaned while it's out. I'll check the block while its apart. The head is almost done and the Reliance kit is in already. Looks like this engine might be back together sooner than I expected. Any tips on rolling in new crank bearings?
I used to cut the head off of a nail, with about an inch an 1/2 of length.
They make insert tools, might want to pick up a set. YMMV
I loosen all the mains a little bit. This make a slight gap and it's much easier to roll them. Then roll all the bearings in and then torque them up.
Thanks for the advice on the bearings! Between this forum and a knowledgeable machinist I might get this done! There will be more questions as I get all the parts back. I have the JD 450 service manual to hopefully avoid the obvious questions...