I have a few ideas based on my years in the business. Check them out at www.terrasmooth.com
Nice blog terrasmooth. I couldn't agree more about what you said about alcoholism in this business. Most of the best operators I have ever worked with were either full blown alcoholics or marginally close.
I agree about at the heavy drinking operators who strangely enough seem to be good timekeepers and look after their machine.Many sites in the UK have breathalisers at the site entrance.
REPETITION and more REPETITION-plain and simple,alcohol has absolutely NO place in the excavating world--I don't care how good someone thinks they are when they've been drinking,because they don't belong in the seat--PERIOD
I agree, however; it is what it is.
I can't believe anyone nowadays accepts drunks have any place on heavy equipment, that attitude probably says more about the people who accept it. Who accepts drunk drivers sharing roads with their wives/children? I've worked with operators who could operate while drunk, trouble was I never got to see what they old do sober. If anyone can't live without drink, they've no business working with machinery.
Thanks Austin, I am not passing judgement, just stating a fact, some of the drinkers and druggies were horrible employees too.
Detecting and proving substance abuse is tricky... I have seen people that I knew were "dirty" sent them in for a test, they carry ziploc bags of someone else's urine, (that is clean) taped to their body to keep it the correct temperature. There are products out there to give a false reading on drug tests, and some say they forgot their I.D. there are many ways to cheat.. Then you basically have to find another reason to get rid of them. Most companies I have worked for put more of an emphasis on drugs than alcohol... weed stays in your system for 30 days and alcohol is gone quickly... the dilemma is trying to control what people do in their private time that does not affect their work... maybe the breathalizer is the answer, I do not know how accurate they are. Then you need to address whether or not to do it to everyone... I have seen just as many alcoholics in management as in the operator/ labor pool.
I'm not talking about guys that drink at work. That is unacceptable. I'm talking about the guys that party hard at night yet still show up day in, day out and outperform most everyone else on the crew.
Don't know about you, Austin, but I'd be embarrassed to to be outperformed by an overhung drunk. Not that it's ever happened. I have worked with some jerks who think they're outperforming everyone else, but the sober majority know the truth. Terra smooth, drugs is a different ball game, but you and I know when someone turns up drunk or hungover, and you and I know saying that they're better operators than a sober guy is kinda burying your head in the sand. Generally you don't find drunk managers meeting you at 25mph on a scraper or grader, or swinging a bucket of rock over your head.
ih100, I'm in no way condoning it, but it is the truth. I'm just agreeing with terracon when he says that in this business you will find hard living, hard partying guys that are good at what they do and are better operators than others. It's a fact. What a guy does on his own time after work is of no concern to me as long as it doesn't affect his performance at work. Some guys can do that, stay up late and show up to work and finish base, load trucks, build a surge pile, or pull a slope better and faster than others.
I've been operating since 1975, and the BEST operators I've worked with are the ones who don't burn the candle both ends. Can you imagine applying your theory to piloting planes, or brain surgery? Equipment ops aren't stand-alone guys with a unique metabolism. These super-operators might shine by midday, but aren't worth a light first thing in the morning.
What theory? And I thought we were talking construction and not brain surgery. I'm not trying to argue with you. BTW, and this is in no way meant to be a personal attack but I know guys that have been operating since 1975 too that aren't that good. Years in the seat doesn't always mean better. Some people have it, some people don't. Some people can see grade and some people can't. Some guys can take 2-3 stakes on successive 100' stations and can carry that grade for 400' or more, by hand so to speak, and be within a few tenths. Some guys will grade that 200' then stop and holler at you to set some more stakes. And SOMETIMES, the operators that can do that also happen to be living hard. I've seen it more than once.
I don't know how guys can work with a hangover. Some people can do it, I guess, but not me. I found that out early, before I even really got in the seat. Work nights I'm in bed usually by 10 o'clock. Unless I can't sleep, but even then, I'll only have 2 or 3 beers.
I never said or implied that a drunk operator was better because of it; I was making a point that many alcoholics I worked with had a good work ethic in spite of their addiction. And I have never been outperformed by someone that was drunk or high. Your point about managers being less of an immediate threat is taken... however they can still make decisions that get someone injured or killed.
the breathaliser used in the UK is 100% accurate.If a reading is positive then another test is taken on a bigger machine, usually at the police station
This blog shows your great effort. It is worth seeing.
I guess you aren't very old, Austin. I can assure you that you don't lose operating skills when you get to 30. Interest, perhaps. Youthful exuberance and a very large trumpet to blow doesn't equal good. However this is a well beaten track we've set down, and all the older hands will be smiling while the younger ones are steaming, so over and out.
You are totally missing my points ih100. What you said is extremely true as well. I in no way implied that I personally am better than anyone else, as you inferred that I did. I think what makes a really good operator is someone that has a great attitude and thinks about all the pieces of machinery or phases of construction that come behind them and thinks about little things, takes care of them, and most importantly, knows their role in an operation. Some examples that I can think of right off hand: The hoe operator that digs the bell hole for RCP without having to wait to be told by the groundman to mark out where it's going to be. The hoe operator that honks his horn to tell the truck he's loading to go just as he starts to dump into the box on his last pass because he knows it takes a few seconds for the truck to begin to move. The hoe and loader operators that don't sit there and wait for trucks when there is a lull in the cycle. They are always moving, building a pile close to the loadout so that in the event he gets slammed with several trucks in a row, he's got a really short cycle to get them out of there in a hurry if he has to, and doesn't have to work the entire face. The loader operator that doesn't wait with his bucket in the air for a truck to pull up and when they don't spot right, has to back up and readjust. The loader operator that dumps a small pile of dirt in the haul road next to pile to keep trucks from crowding too close to him. The blade operator that gets out of the way when laying gravel to allow the trucks to keep dumping, knowing that there are two seperate operations involved with gravel, the laydown & finish. The dozer hand when dumping a string of trucks leaves the last few dumps in a ribbon for a later time if he wants them to start another, backs up and catches the trucks instead of letting them come all the way down to the end of the fill with their load. There are more little things than that, just what I could come up with quickly. I may not have been operating since 1975, but I have been in this business long enough to see operators that do the things I mentioned above and I have seen operators that don't do the things above, and I tell you what, it wasn't always age or years operating the separated the two. And I have also seen and heard operators that when shown or told the things I mentioned above, (not necessarily by me either) nod and say "yeah, that makes sense" then two hours later go back to what they were doing before.
Thank you kindly Rabia , I appreciate you taking time to read it... hope it helps in some way.
Exactly. It isn't a question if they are good or not when they are under the influence, its all about liability. It isnt the operator that gets sued when he kills someone on site, it is the company. There goes your reputation, and half of your equipment on a lawsuit. I had a foreman tell me a story one time about how he was working down in Arkansas somewhere and they had a trackhoe operator down there that was apparently just a deadeye finish operator. They were talking one day and he smelled alcohol on his breath. When confronted about it, he admitted immediately that he had 4 or 5 before work. Foreman laughed and sent him home, told him he couldn't do that anymore and to come back tomorrow. Operator came back tomorrow and just wasnt worth a ****. Whether he was hung over, or going through withdrawls, or what I guess I won't ever know for sure, but the implied ending to the story was that he was just a better operator when he was drunk! Eventually they just had to fire him because he wasn't worth a damn sober. Kind of got a kick out of the idea. Unfortunately no matter how good you are, the potential of getting someone hurt on site by someone under the influence just isn't worth any skill level of an operator.
The Drunk Operator I worked With Backed A D9 Dozer Over Our Pick up Didn't Know It Till Time to GO Home, wE had to wait until about 10;00pm. to get a ride back to office about 50 miles
Under the influence or not, employers are always looking for a reason or someone to blame for any incident. It's the policy where I work that anyone involved in an incident is drug and alcohol tested. Recently one of the trucks, cat 789, had a turbo fire, no real damage except for the turbo. The operator was drug and alcohol tested. For the life of me I can't see how the operator could be even thought of to be at fault. I certainly don't condone working under the influence and I'd say that for the odd good while drunk operator there would be lots and lots more sober operator. Going back to the original theme of this thread, What makes a good operator, anyone who operates while drunk no matter how good on the machine, is irresponsible to themselves and everyone else who works with them. And therefore is not a good operator.
I think the perception that a functioning alcoholic is better when drunk is slighty exagerated.Many of these individuals can functon at a good level... however most people have already made major exceptions for these people to even be on the job. My father in law was one of the best welders in this state many years ago; he carried beer to work with him and drank all day long. His employers overlooked it in order to have him do what very few others could... he was a huge liability though, albeit in the days before all of the lawsuits. The point I make is that an empolyee needs to be a good employee first and then a good operator or whatever trade they are in. The inebriated employee who is said to be"good" is very naturally talented in many cases... I would like to see what these people would be like "Completely" free of the influence of addictive behavior... all hypothetical I guess.
Drugs and alcohol have no place anywhere near a jobsite. Our work is dangerous enough without adding that to the mix. As to good operators or good help in general, even mediocre ability is outshined by a good attitude and ability to learn and work with the crew. Almost every person has the ability to learn to do better, not nearly enough of them have the desire anymore, so when I find one with the desire, I try real hard to nurture that person and make the ability grow. I run a heavy equipment repair facility for a dirt contractor, and good mechanics are really hard to find, even harder if you want one with good attitude. lol
Yeah, you nailed it with the good help in general. Mechanics are especially tough now-a-days with all of the necessary computer diagnostics. Half mechanic half nerd not afraid to get dirty.
Amen! attitude is paramount in my world... I would much rather take someone with a good attitude and teach them rather than deal with a PRIMA DONNA any day.
First of all thanks for sharing such a useful website. My opinion is that knowledge increases by sharing. We learn from other experience. To become a good operator first you must have a basic knowledge of each and every thing related to your task. Further training and workshops can also increase your skills.
Thank you Rabia it is so true. I try to cover many different subjects of interest.
How do you prove you have the desire in a one page resume though?...... Thats the roadblock i am facing at the moment I have a few blokes i've worked under over the past 5 years who are willing to verify my passion for operating excavators and carrying out various tasks with them and skidsteers. but the more i've looked into "making a resume" employers don't waste there time calling "referees" So am i better off getting 2 written references drawn up and stapling them to my resume???? I haven't had a fulltime gig (operating), but have carried out every excavation job possible with excavators (and skidsteers) for over the past 5 years, with my employer. Also have spent a few years doing weekend work on excavators for another bloke, which has helped me come along way I am starting to ramble (and wandering off topic) so i'll start my own topic sometime soon... Cheers, Matt
Nice blog Terrasmooth..I am agree with your point. i have also known many operators who drunk but they can manage themselves at workplace. Some people are addict while some are not. Management can take decision about this issue.
Matt, There are some people that look great on paper and are absolutely worthless once they get on the job, conversely there are people who don't look that good on a resume or job application who turn out to be some of the best employees. I have found this to be particularly true in construction; because of the transient nature of the business, people follow the work, not always with one company. I have wriiten an article on how to get and keep a job that has some ideas that have worked for me. http://69.89.31.238/~terrasmo/2012/06/16
Thanks terrasmooth, but i have already read your page during previous lurkings I know i (should) do fine once i get behind the controls, its just putting enough on paper to get me that chance, that has held me back for so long. (not that i've applied for jobs just yet) Also i'm abit worried about the fact when i jump on a new machine, i tend to go slow at first to get used to the different way it operates if you get me? I hope it doesn't get percieved as being unconfident/ nervous.... Cheers, Matt