I've looked at bidding on a project that requires setting 84" x 8' long concrete pipe. The pipe has a weight of 19,000+ LBS from what I've been told, far more than any of my 210 size machines will pick up. So what size machine do I need to look at renting for this size lifting and setting? Will a PC 300 or cat 330 be big enough for the job and do it safely or do I need to look at getting a PC400 or cat 345?
How deep will you be laying? My 400 will pick it up but not far. maybe 6 or 12 ". I had a run 60 or so feet at 15' deep and when i got to about 10 12 foot the 400 would fall on it's nose. And i was not stuck out vary far.
At 20' dead center over the front and at ground level you can lift ~25,000lbs with a 330C L. If you try to go the extra 5' you are in the danger zone of 19,000lbs. The weight you can lift is reduced as you get higher off the ground as well as futher away from the machine. A 345C L on the other hand is good for ~33,000lbs at 20' over the front. 23,000lbs at 25' While it can be done with a 330 as long as you are nice and close and can work over your idlers the whole time I'd recommend the 345 if you have to have anyone near the lift/down hole (especially if you have to do more than just one lift). Last thing you wanna do it tip over to drop the pipe on anyone/thing.
I think the bottom of the trench was going to be around 15' down, maybe a little more. I was planning on cutting the grade down before that way I would not have to set them so deep, then backfill back to original grade. I think the plans called for 84" concrete for one creek and 60" for another one.
How much pipe are you going to set?
160' or 20 sections of 84" pipe
Instead of getting a bigger machine just to set those pieces what about prepping a decent length of trench and the just having a truck come in and place them for you? In that situation when I delivered they'd prep enough for probably 4 pieces and then When I showed up I'd set them right off the truck. More if there's room to get a boomtruck in there along with a semi to haul more, if you could get 4 on the truck then 6 on a big trailer and the site was good I'd say it wouldn't take that long and it would cost a bunch less.
chris no matter what you decide to do...you know that we will expect ALOT of pics and videos!
Of course, I've never set any pipe bigger than 48" in concrete so it should be interesting. I've done 60" plastic and larger in metal but never in concrete. I would like to get the chance to run a 345, I've never run anything of that size before.
Responses are right that you will lose lift capacity the higher you are lifting. You won't be picking the pipe from ground level - 84" pipe plus lifting eye/cable and you're talking more like 13'-15' off the ground. You'd need a 345 sized machine with a shorter stick (11' vs. 12'10") and you'd have to have the bucket off but it would lift it and you'd be able to handle the pipe. You'd also have to lift them off the truck by reaching over the pipe and sticking your bucket into it vs. using a cable. I'd second the suggestion to pre-dig the ditch and pick and set the pipe with a crane if possible. The pipe can be set in a single day so you'd only need a days rental on a crane/operator. If you can ramp out the end of your ditch, you drive a loader or dozer into the ditch to grade and push pipe home. A third option is to consider shorter joints. Rental on a 330 is less than a 345 and 6' joints shouldn't be a problem for a 330.
450 deere? babyshirt
Having dug and set a lot of this size pipe, I would not even attempt it without at least a 45 ton machine. I have done a lot of it with a Cat 350, and you have to be close in. By the time you get your ditch down to grade, you will be too far away with a 330. Even if you pre bench, that makes it worse because you have to reach higher up to pick up the pipe by the trench. Unless you pre dig, go up top and set the pipe down, then go back down and do the final set. Way too much running around when the proper size machine will pick it and place it. If you are renting, be sure to get the 11' stick as said above. the 12'10" will do it but with trouble, and I would not even attempt it with the 14' stick. Also best with a quick coupler so you can drop the bucket off when setting pipe, then put it back on to dig the next set.
i would rent a komatsu 600, rent a trap bucket and a 96" bucket with side cutters and then hire me to get it done!
Just roll em in.....then push em together:falldownlaugh
Yeah just beat 'em together, tick off your Inspector:stirthepot
:iagreeYeah but you will need a D-8 or larger sized dozer.... back up about 20 feet then as fast as you can run right into it!! :beerchug
I think I'm just going to go the cheap route, just ramp it down and roll them down in the trench and push them together with a bobcat Looking on getting some prices for a large machine. Here are my choices Volvo 460 Cat 345 Komatsu pc 400
Whatever you choose you are one lucky devil I would love to play with a machine that size, I have never been in anything larger than a 325!
you also have to think how you are going to get them off the truck
If you can pull it off, go for it. Keep in mind, if its not spelled out in the plans and the jobs done correctly its absolutely none of the inspectors business how its done.
Here in Ca, the delivery truck has ramps and a winch, and he lowers them down gently. Whole load off in about 5 minutes. Any size from 12" to 120" is delivered this way here. Then all you have to do is stage it close to where it goes, and set it in when the ditch is dug. Dirtman Make sure you check the charts close if you go the 400 route. I question whether they have the grunt to lower them Safely into the hole. They will get there, but your pipelayers will be happier if the hoe is still flat on its tracks when the pipe arrives, not standing on its nose.
Thanks for the info, Around here the pipe is delivered on flat beds that are equiped with spring loaded forks at the end of the trailer. Pipe is rolled down to the end and the forks let it down to the ground. I'm not sure on how big of pipe that system can handel though.
Chris, I'd say either the 460 or the 345, cause like Jerry said I've heard that Komatsu's tend to be a little weaker for their size, course I've also heard the 460's tend to be a little heavy in the front, so who knows. Have you though of looking at a John Deere 450? They have plenty of power and a wider track frame (about a foot wider than a 345), which would give you a better balanced machine when craning those pipes in.
Chris, those can handle any size pipe you can fit on the trucks. We had 3 trailers that where set up like that a good man on them can unload a whole trailer load in no time flat, and if he's got a head on him he can unload a 2 tiered load with nothing more then a 3 foot prybar. But think about the truck crane too, my knuckle boom could probably set 4 or 5 of those from the same spot before I would have had to move. And with a delivery came an automatic 1 hour of time. That's part of why I suggested that, because you could unload them and set them at the same time, I'd also have 2 slings handy for that so the crane never really had to stop.
We used a John Deere 450C LC to take apart a manitowoc M80 crane. The counterweight was around 28,000 pounds. We picked it up 4 or 5 feet off the ground around 10-15 feet out and walked it to the trailer. It wasn't the greatest of ideas, but we got the job done. I think you may be better of with a crane or a PC600. But those are my thoughts, cutting it down is a good idea to. Just need to think on the time it'll take to backfill and compact.
45 tonne machine will do the job for you. my John Deere 450Dlc has done this type of lifting before with no problems. Good luck and take some pictures.
Thanks for all the help guys. I got some prices on 84" concrete pipe and it was $400.00 a foot. Does that sound about right?
$400 L.F sounds about right...RS Means calls for 84"pipe around $427 L.F. so you might be getting a deal haha
I'm getting a great deal with the total cost of concrete pipe at $100,000. We really have to do some good Pre Bid planning on this job.
id say get the 345 they just finished a big job here doing 83" water line using a 345 and 365
What ever you rent get a quick coupler. two reasons: one with the bucket offf you can see alot better.two when lifting, the bucket just adds useless weight.get rid of the bucket and gain a couple thousand pounds in lifting cap.
Just to add for an FYI, the lifting charts are the weight INCLUDING the bucket listed on the sticker. If you drop the bucket you'll gain on what is listed on the chart.
That is correct - some manufacturers include bucket weight (and keep in mind it is usually a particular bucket - you'll have to adjust if it's a different size) and some don't. I believe Cat does, but Volvo doesn't for instance.
Thats is exactly what I am saying.
However if it's got a hydraulic quick disconnect you're adding length to your stick, and another ~1,500-2,000 lbs. Just something to consider if you're close to your limits on your lift charts.
just rent a 70 ton crane to come in a set the pipe. I think it would be cheaper to do it that way. you get everthing ready the day before and then set the pipe the next day and backfill the day after.
As much as the prospect of renting a large machine would excite me, your first priority is $$$ The crane would be able to set all that pipe in a day I would bet and at a lower rate that a 345 or whatever you may choose. Dig the trench and backfill with whatever you may have and just rent the crane to place the pipe. If there is a water issue you may want to use the 45 ton machine though so you can work along with the well points. Just my 2cents after taxes
have you looked into pouring the pipe in place?
On a local pipeline project, they got a Doosan 450lcv to do the job. It did it perfectly well, plus being a cheap and strong machine, once the contract is finished, you can sell it for a relatively good price, unless you want to keep it for bigger jobs.
I'm not going to buy a machine to do a week long job. I don't need anything that big and that expensive.
I think the crane idea is probably cheapest, but definately not as much fun as running a 40+ ton hoe. I'd lean toward the 345 or Volvo 460 if you go the hoe route, PC400's don't overly impress me when it comes to lifting. They are smooth, quick machines, but they need a little more juice when it comes to heavy lifting. At least that's been my experience with the few hours I've spent in dash 6 and 7 400s, with medium and short sticks.
Of course the 400s are going to be light in the ass. They are on the low end of the size class. As for the crane, or digging everything the day before, I dont think I would do that. What happens if it rains, or if you have ground water issues. I dont think pipe this size would float, then again, ive seen some pretty big and heavy structures float. Go with the 345 or 460, as much as i like the 400, they are not going to perform they way you need it to. I would have someone in your smaller machines following behind backfilling.
Keep us posted
Will do, you know how it is with bid work. Think they'll do it quick and they don't start until 3 months later.
heres what you should do...
X2 sure you might get lucky but it not your going to lose a bit of $$$$. Its not worth cutting corners just be the lowest bidder.
The crew doing the utility tunnels for KU used a 650 to dig and a RT crane to set the "pipe" sections. The crane crew would show up every other day to set, they only did this on the really deep part, so it's probably not the efficient.
Ok fine, but what is the difference between a PC400 or a Volvo 460 compared to a Doosan 450LCV? And why buy, when you can hire??
He wants to do it himself and its only a weeklong project so why buy it? just rent it...
Have you looked into 4' lengths of pipe? the extra expense of casting 4' ers probably cheaper than renting, and your hoe could handle them.