lets say you have a road that you need to put gravel on. you have grade stakes down each side and crown stakes in the middle. where would you start off?? the way i was told to do it was start putting all the gravel to grade down one side. once that is done, move to the crown stakes on the same side of the road and put them all to grade. then start filling in the hollow in the middle. how do you guys start a job like this out?
Couple of questions: How wide is the road? What type of equipment will you be using? Time frame for project completion?
-Lets say two lanes each direction. -any grader will do, but lets say one like the mini i have (champion C80c) and a backhoe is around if you need it -time frame is as fast as you can get it done!
just pull the stakes and just do what feels right in the seat!!
Don't worry about pulling them between the operators and the drivers there won't be any left standing anyways.
I'm having a hard time to picture using a mini for a road that has two lanes in each direction. On a two lane road (one lane each way) I would have the gravel spread on one side bringing it to grade with the stake marks. If the road we were doing was a long stretch, I would work one side for aways then work the opposite lane. The grade stakes in the middle (crown) stayed unless they got knocked down by the truckers :stirthepot After you get the first few loads dumped it won't take you long to figure out if you need them dumped heavier or thinner. I had the tendency to go a little lighter so you don't have to drag so much ahead. You will have to come back and spread more anyways after compaction. Once you have it to grade (stake marks) haul the middle stakes and grade off the material that is left around the stakes. If you bring the gravel to the stakes from each side, then there shouldn't be a hollow to fill in. Although I have worked with grade stakes a few times thoughout my years on a grader , most jobs were done by eyeball. We would set stakes for the road width but that was it. There are lots of grader hands here that have years of experience working with grade stakes, so maybe they can chime in to help you out as well.
The only real reason i start on the outside is to save stone. You build the edge first, and any excess you roll to the center to build your crown. It is easer to work your extra material down the center of the road than it is on the side. Working on the side, you tend to have stone spill outside your stakes, and it is hard, if not possible, time wise, to get it back.
I seldom work a job with centerline grade stakes.If you have gutterline grade stakes offset to your preference with Finish Grade (FG) on them.......some wrap tape on the FG line for visibility then it is a simple matter to pull your stringline between the stakes and measure down to the surface to determine your grade. You will need to calculate what each dimension will be depending on which lift you are applying but the same FG marks will be used to determine subgrade,gravel grade,process stone grade and the paver just lays down the combination of binder and surface mix that the job calls for. If for example the specs call for 8" of gravel,6" of process and 4" of pavement with a 3" crown then your subbase at the centerline will be 18" from your stringline and 21" at the gutter. The gravel when brought to grade will be 10" from the stringline at the centerline and 13" in the gutter and so on. When you do this every day or after you have done it a while the calculations become second nature and you train yourself to think in those terms. I can imagine that when working with a wide road such as a state highway you would need a centerline stake because the roads are supered in the turns and the stringline might be cumbersome if it was too long. I have worked some on state highways and in my experience they only do two lanes or so at a time so the stringline would still work. I do enjoy grading by eyeball with minimal critical grades,that is an art and you have to have talent to do it properly.Ron G
You should always build the shoulder first before you make the first cut for subgrade or at least have the road shoulder in place before you start spreading gravel and stone and there will be very little waste. If you compact any layer without any material to backup the shoulder it will just roll off of the side during compaction and be very difficult to establish your grade there.If you are building a roadbase with the curb installed it takes care of that problem.Ron G
stakes Very interesting thread. My grader experience has always been eyeball, never used stakes. I think I have just officially changed my title from "Operator" to "Driver". To this discussion I can only add, "Patience is a virtue". :notworthy
Now I've never built a road before, but that sure makes a lot of sense. Especially ending on the crown and starting on the shoulder. I will consider all of this when I have to do it one day.
I just start smearing it around till it looks good...works for me. On a 2 lane road you might be able to start on a shoulder, but I have never had any luck at it on a 1 lane. I go with more trial and error get the center set and just start slowly carrying the fat material down to the shoulder until I figure out how much I need to carry to make grade. FYI I'm not a blade hand this is how I do it with a dozer the few times I've done it with a blade I do it the same.
now i know i havent been around long.... but all the jobs i have been to have had center stakes. maybe its just the way our company works. I couldent imagine having to try and go with out them, but having the abliltiy to do so will only come with time im sure! Thank you all for your input, i havnet had the chance to put any of it to use yet, since i have been on driveway duity as of late.
Grade stakes Hi, Danial Doherty. The only time I have EVER had or used center grade stakes has been for 4 or 6 lane divided roads i.e. dual carriageway with a dividing or median strip down the middle. Then the center stakes are always in the dividing or median strip. All the normal 2 and 4 lane roads that I have done have only had shoulder grade stakes and the crown has always been checked using a string line and a tape measure. Final grade on the shoulder stakes is alway offset above the finished crown level so that you can work a string line across the road. Shoulder levels are usually checked with a spirit level and tape measure, measuring down from the offset level. A string line and bubble level can be used in place of the spirit level for checking shoulder levels. There is a little trap here. When working with a change of elevation as in going through a corner, if the shoulder stakes are offset outside the shoulder as is common practice, there needs to be two separate levels on the shoulder stakes, one for checking the shoulder with a spirit level and the other for stringing right across the road. The chief reason that center stakes are seldom if ever used is that they cause compaction problems - or rather 'lack of compaction' problems. Hope this helps.
Yep Deas that is the way we do it as well. Most of the roads we put in have curb/gutter or valley gutter so the only grade stakes we need are off-set 4' from back of curb- for the curb installation. Put the curb sub-grade in, slip-form the curb, use the ol' trusty string pulled from back of curb to back of curb and measure your crown from there, both sub-grade and base course. If you have the typical 6:2:1 paving section, measure down 8 1/2" from the top of the pavement edge of the curb/gutter (1/2" allowance for the seal coat to be 1/2" above gutter line) and cut your subgrade and measure the sub-grade crown. Of course these are our local spec's, other locations will probably vary. Hint if you are doing this task by yourself, grab 2 bricks and tie them to both ends of the string line.:cool2 Hang the bricks over the back of the curb and it keeps the string tight while the one man measuring crew checks the crown. As far as the shoulders, we fine grade once curb is in to facilitate proper drainage. In our rolling hills, this may be towards the street or away from the street. The only time we have centerline staked is for the rough cut/fill of the street, most of the time this is done once with off-set stakes for centerline placed outside the clearing limits for reference and protected from damage.
Very intresting. Here in the UK we use block ups to get the crown. Assuming both curbs, or similar are in then pull a string line ( I use fishing line ) between the two, on the far curb will be a block up, say + 40mm which is how much the line has to be above the curb at that point, the dip from line to grade is the same from the 1st curb to the crown. By reversing the proccess and checking the block up on the first curb you get the grade for the other half of the carriageway. When cutting formation ( prior to placing stone ) with a dozer or exc the profiles will be off set 2 metres behind finished curb and have 2 crossheads in different colours and are normally marked{ FRL + 1m o/s 2m } Finished Road Level + 1 metre. The traveller is then made to suit eg 1 metre + blacktop of 300mm + stone 275mm = traveller 1575mm. by sighting from the lower crosshead this side to the higher crosshead the otherside you get the side of road nearest too you up to the crown. By sighting top crosshead to lower crosshead the other side you get the road from crown to far curb. The formation and the stone are all done off these. Pins are then put in for the curb line then final trim is done to the curbs.
Who needs bricks when youve got curb hooks. Basicly a 1/4in thick by 1 inch wide, by 12 inch long. Length wise was bent into an L shape. The tops had a handle on them. Run thru back fill your curbline. Then you can stab the hook in any where you want to pull a line. Hook your other hook on the other side. Grab your tenth rule and a can of paint, and away you go
We will usually get curb and gutter staking, get it close, usually like to be an inch or so high, eyeball the crown. Once the curb is laid down we call the paving company to come finish grade the sub grade and lay down stone and pave it. last couple times i was grading for curb and gutter i had to us an excavator with a blade, i can get it within an inch without too much trouble. they won't buy or rent me a dozer.
That is intresting in that you get the paving company to finish grade ( we say 'final trim' ) is that the norm as far as industry standards or norm as your size of contractor. Others from other parts of the States please chime in as what you class as norm could be different in other parts :drinkup Add. talking of specification and how tight ( close) you trim. Our ( UK) Highway spec final trim for blacktop ( I believe you say Hot Rocks :beatsme ) is 10mm ( 1/2") high, 25mm (1")low total tolerance 35mm. I know grader ops that work to +/- 5mm ( no GPS) but graders are a rare beast on the size jobs I'm talking about
:lmao:falldownlaugh On the average job where do you find (A) 1/4in thick by 1 inch wide, by 12 inch long Length wise piece of wire? (B) Somebody clever enough to work out how to bend it to make a hook, and have you got a welder to make a loop on the end so my mate can fix the string line to it Seriously 2 bricks is the same in any language
It's pretty much the norm for any smaller contractors around here, bigger outfits will finish grade themselves. The paving company we use keeps their grade crew pretty busy. I know they prefer to do the final trim anyways, as they know they will be nuts on, they have had lots of problems with contractors trying to do their own grade and being anywhere from 2" low to 2" high. :beatsme
Same here in CT...paving contractor will bring in their own grader and roller to bring it to grade, unless the roadbuilder is doing all the work themselves.
What is the tolerance for most of your jobs?? where im working now we usualy try to keep it within an inch. but i have been on jobs where the survayer had to come in and it had to be with in 1/4 of an inch!!!!
Hey Rob- We usually do the pre-"final trim". Like Tylermckee said, you can get it within .5-.1 FT and the paving contractor will still blade the sub-grade. We all know how persnickity those grader operators can be.:stirthepot The reason why I like to do the pre-trim is to find any soft spots in the subgrade and repair them. Sometimes we have utility subcontractors (Asplundh for one) that are hired by the utility companies to run services across the road before curb and paving go in. These guys could care less if it is compacted or put in properly, so it is in our best interest to make sure the subgrade is sufficient. With asphalt and aggegrate prices these days, it pays to spend some time on the subgrade.
The contractors always want it high rather than low as stone is cheaper than blacktop but they have to live in the real world and it becomes the normal hurry up blacktops here in which case you cant have fine tolerance and productivity, as long as its within specification ( + 10 / -25 ) it will do :cool2 Thank you all for your responses, you definetly operate different to us. Our blacktop companies do just that, blacktop
We usually get our subgrade to within a tenth or two, then the paving co. lays down 3" of rock and 3" of blacktop. 3" and 3" is our city spec.
Our normal spec for "standard duty paving" is 6:2:1, 6 inches of stone, 2" of binder (large course aggregate asphalt) and 1" wear course which is a finer graded aggregate asphalt. "Heavy duty paving" is usually 8:2:1.5 of the same recipe. Tyler, do they put all 3" of asphalt down at once or do a 2" first and 1" when the project is closer to completion? I have bid several jobs here lately that have both standard and heavy duty paving sectons. It seems to be getting more popular to spec HD paving in the higher traffic areas of hotels, resturants and retail centers, or at least the ones I am bidding.
Tolerances. Hi, Folks. It is interesting to see how folks do things in other parts of the world. Here in DownUnder, on ALL the road jobs I have worked on, the contractor does the boxing out, lays the gravel/roadbase/whatever and the hotmix/asphalt/bitumen crew comes in and turns everything black or it gets concreted - concrete is mostly used for major highway jobs or airport runways - LOTS of concrete there. Tolerances can vary from +/- 20mm (3/4") on subgrade to +/- 3mm (1/8") on top course gravel/roadbase on a main road or an airport runway. I have had to do +/- 3mm (1/8") under a string line on a 'Gah-damm' car park - with a 4wd front end loader with 4-in-1 of all things. I've also had to do 0 to +1/4" under a string line prepping for concrete in another car park with a track loader with 4-in-1. Both times, they had the dollars so I had the time.
They lay down all 3" at once, sometimes on larger developments they will lay down 2" and do the last inch after most of the homes are built. and our full profile is 8" of pit run/gravel, 3" rock, 3" hot mix