Just curious as to how many "Operators" run the blade backwards as much as they do forward? Years ago I was "Smoothing up" one of my fills, and my boss came yelling and screaming He said If I could not run the blade forward, then I should not run it at all:Banghead From then on out, I learned to rarely, if never backdrag, (unless I am trying to seal up a muddy fill to get it to drain or pull back a little material from an asphalt tie in or something), Now I seem to get irritated when I see operators drag the blade backwards with every couple of passes or so to make their work look better. We have a "Long time" catskinner who drags his blade backwards quite often, and I just shake my head to myself when I see it. We work alot of shot rock, so its not like crushed stone or mud. Am I the only one who is bothered by this? (Besides my old boss). I know when we changed the cutting edges, the paint was still on the backside of the bolts. Thats how it should be.
I do sometimes but rarely. I work in a coal mine and we have to swap out other operators and sometimes park light vehicles in safe parkup areas for our own use, as the mine works 24/7 and I operate all the equipment so it is not very often that I would get the chance to backblade a small area where someone is going to be walking around. It depends on the material too, if its good to work with it won't need a quick back blade, if its blocky but not too hard, yes. If it's hard rock ,no. If its suitable material and will make somebodys (including me) day a bit better I won't hesitate. If we are causing damage to any machine through bad operating practise the workshop lets us know and in all my time operating I've never once heard of any damage done by backblading; thumbsup
Yeah Ive seen Drivers do that with Big Dozer's (Rec Blade) Pushing down to a Shovel. They Back Blade Mostly to fill big holes they left while pushing Gung Ho. Dont bother me TBH. If I cannot get the Cutting edge bolt off first time I have them Arc'ed out of there. This can be Bad on the Tag link though if material fills the space and the front end lifts on the link. The wost offenders Are Grader drivers ........ Back Blading with a 24 Grader can do all sorts of damage.
I back blade a lot,depending on what I am doing of course but I can get a lot more production out of a machine by grading in both directions. One consideration can be to reduce the amount of standing water on an area that you have worked........I find that backblading also increases the surface area for exposure to the wind and sun when laying out wet material to dry such as topsoil so that you can complete your task sooner. It also is a considerate thing to do when finishing an area that people will have to drive over if their wheels will be running over the grouser tracks in the surface of the road or driveway.I even backblade with a grader at times. It is not an issue of carrying a grade at all,it has to do with production and the final product.Ron G
It depends on what machine I'm on. Backblading with finish dozers produces good results, backblading with bulking dozers, it alot more difficult because of the increased blade weight, and I'm not sure how productive it is. For me The d7 is the line. I do know that backblading in a 824 does an awesome job.
Back-blading. Hi, Sharky. I'd just LOVE to see your old boss do some of the jobs that I have done with a dozer without back-blading. F'rinstance, how do you get the material out of an area 16 feet by 16 feet with vertical walls 3 feet high on 3 sides with a Cat D5B wide gauge dozer if you can't back-blade it out? How do you get the material out of a right-angled blind corner where two vertical walls meet if you ain't allowed to back-blade it out? I once dug a hole for a swimming pool with a Cat D7F. The deep end was 6 1/2 feet, the shallow end was around 2 feet, the hole was around 30 feet long by 12 wide - not a lot of manoevering room for a Cat D7F. That involved a LOT of back-blading to get the last of the material out of the hole. Why didn't we use an excavator or a loader? "cos we didn't HAVE an excavator or a loader. What we had was a Cat D7F - and a hole to dig. I might add that the D7F also had a tree pusher bar fitted to it - just to make life a little more interesing. I'm all in favour of doing all the work that you possibly can travelling forward, the way the machine is designed to work. How-wevver, sometimes it just ain't possible to do it thataway and then I don't even think about it. I just do it. As Diggerop said, I have yet to see a blade damaged by back-blading, especially an an Original Equipment Manufacturer's blade. Just my 0.02.
I'm the xxxxing boss on this show anyway, and I backblade all the time when working dirt. On production jobs if I can fill a bit of a hole that's slowing me down on the run back then that's great. On the trim dozer I can touch up a gravel road to "grader was here" standard in reverse can't do it that good going forward. If the cost of a set of cutting edge bolts is an issue than don't own a dozer. Yet I have heard people comment on this, while getting around with the tracks overtight. On their show they's the boss. I replace the bolts every time I roll the edges anyway, and always blow them off because it's faster than arguing with damged threads Works for me
Back-blading. As always, you have the ability to look at the hole picture, Deas...:notworthy... :thumbsup OCR the hole ... :laugh
Gday all, I try not to back blade but a certain D47U with small front idlers got me started for obvious reasons and as they say "old habbits die hard". Im am an owner operator and so when the edge comes time to be changed ( not on the D4 nowerdays- shes retired and restored) I have to give myself a good talking to over the bolts! But like Deas said some jobs give you little choice. Cheers.
only when i need to get rid of track marks finish grading
Back dragging doesn't hurt a thing. Since the dirt builds up under the blade between the cutting edge and the underside (some call a frog plate) there is very little abrasion because of that. There is way more wear pushing forward, the cutting edges and the whole front of the blade (face), thats why those plates wear out. I'd like to see the finish work your boss did, how did he get rid of the track marks? And wouldn't those track marks go over big on a fill before compaction. That is one reason to own your own dozer and not have to put up with some idiot bosses whims, and idiocys.
I back blade any time I need a smooth finish, doing the final on a flat or finishing off a road. Grouser marks just don't go over well with some people in the final finish :beatsme haha
Consider me a novice, but isn't that what the "float" position on the blade control is for? (I'm refering to older style machines like my D6c)
Even the new cats have float int he blade control
I always make a mess backdraging, rarely do it except to get material away from an obstical
Same here, I always get those nice wind rows that roll off the corners of the blade when backdraging. Going forward I can get it perfect. Plus I just like so see a nice smooth as glass pass with nothing but the track marks showing. I can just get things smoother blading forward. I'll back drag slopes and to pull dirt out of corners but that's about it.
Well heres what I was taught from a 20+ year finish dozer/grader operator. I was grading going forward. I would work an area, finish it up. Then drag out my track marks. He told me im burning up the uc on the machine doing that. Told me to make my pass, grab a little material at the end of that pass and drag it back to the start. He said that does two things for me. 1 That piece is finished, no need to track over it again. 2 You need material to grade with. By backdragging that material back to the start it gives you a little material to start out on your blade. Even if there is cut right there. By having the material on the blade it helps take the bounce out of your dozer.
good for drying. I blade and drag when required. Here's my complaint: it "hides" dirt consitency/compaction. course im a grader man, i like clean cut grade.
I'ts kinda like backtracking Sometimes youv'e got to cover your tracks. I know it's hard on undercarriage components but the float must be there for a reason and haveing a u-blade its the best way of smoothing out roads without haveing to cut into new dirt.
Bulk pushing material when we're building dike leaves lots of windrows. When the cut is almost finished (or on the last pass of the day if it looks like rain) I'll backdrag the windrows on the way back to the cut. I could knock them down going forward, but why waste the time and UC? I AM irritated by someone who backdrags to cover up a lack of skill. If you can't make a smooth cut, learn how or find something else to do.:drinkup
Plain and simple, do what you need to do to get the job done it the most efficient way with out abusing the machine....back dragging is hardly abuse
I was told by my dozer instructor to never backdrag. I try my best no to and I don't unless I want to remove my tracks or pull material away from obstacles. Sometimes you absolutely have to, but I try to avoid it. Dozer instructor says "if blades were meant to be drug backwards, there'd be a cutting edge there."
I never do, I like the looks of the tracks in the dirt
Interesting replies. I can see if you have "No other choice", but as I mentioned before, the guys who do it to make their work look better, mainly because they cant get it right going forward. We use rollers to smooth finish grade unless its a complete mud pit. Its not the cost of new cutting edge bolts, it's the fact that one can constantly do finish grade work going forward and not need to drag backwards. A roller is always nice, but not always available. I, like some others, do a much better job in forward than reverse. Again, I am refering to the bulk of the pushing. To each his own, I was just curious to see what others had to say. Thanks. And just because an operator has been running something for 20 years is not saying everything, it still don't mean he is any good at it. ointhead
If I am bulk pushing and not slot dozing,that is I am trying to build a berm etc I will collect my windrows as I go.You can doze at an angle to windrows and pick them up in such a way as to have a bladeful at the end of your push.You can't get much more efficient than that.If you have material rolling off of your blade that is wasteful technically.I also will not be backblading in this case unless there is a special reason to. When backblading with a PAT blade you will angle the blade to create a windrow in the direction you are moving your material which means that you will roll the material in that direction going forward then reverse the angle to cast it the same way backing up. The float position should not be used while backblading as you have no control of the finished product,all you will have is windrows which look worse than not backblading at all. You can still do nice looking work without backblading but there are times that you need that extra touch and as was said earlier,you might just need to move some material for whatever reason and that is the most obvious and efficient way to do it.Ron G
there are some tricks to back blading well. One I like to do when finishing an area is to start on one side of the spread, angle and tilt the blade a little bit, and backdrag out. The corner of the blade that is closest to the operator should be off the grounnd just enough so that no extra spoilage goes around the corner opf the blade, Whala!!!! No more windrows
That thing hung on the front is a tool and is there to be used in what ever way needed in order to get the job done, that's my opinion. I have worked in areas where the only way to finish was work your way out backwards. I only heard two guys in the thread describe the right way to finish in reverse, could that be a reason for the aversion to this way of doing things??
The RIGHT way to back-blade. Hi, LDK. You're right. That thing hung on the front IS a tool and can be used in variety of ways to achieve the desired result. For mine, there is not RIGHT way, only the way that works for the situation at hand. I'm guessing that by 'right' way you are referring to having the blade angled and tilted so that you don't leave a windrow on the side you are taking the material from, basically the 'toe' of the blade. Does this mean that there is no RIGHT way to back-blade with a straight, semi-U or U-dozer? Just thought I'd ask. LOL.
I was taught that back blading was a no-no unless it was a very light load such as wiping out tracks. The reasons sighted were UC wear and possible damage to the connection between the strut ( if that´s the correct term) and the UC. It can hold a load pushing forwards all day long. But there are only 2 bolts that take all the load when pulling in reverse.
there is a demonstration in CAD or something that shows the stresses put on the sprockets when going in reverse...i don't know if it was this site or not but if anyone has it, post it...that alone is reason enough not to back drag a lot of material...like many others, i feel back dragging is only good to eliminate track marks (or tight areas) for the guy that says you get rid of track marks with a roller...thats all well and good if you have a roller on site, but when i finish grade a residentual house or small commercial lot the roller is long gone, if it was ever there in the first place...that way, i back drag my marks so the mexicans don't have as much raking to do, unless the ground is rocky 9 times out of 10 they can just come and throw down seed the next day and not have to even rake it...a few minutes of me back dragging saves my company money by not having to pay the sub as much to seed the yard by the time they save not raking it
IMHO the only reason i can see for not backdraging is that the sprockets are pushing slack chain under the rollers instead of pulling tight chain towards them , the same reason i cited in the excavator topic . The other reason i suppose in soil with small rocks is that they are caught under the blade plate and are causing wear as they tumble . Using the float control is very usefull on track loaders etc as the bucket smooths out the work as a loader bucket does not do as neat a job going forward as a dozer does as a matter of design .
Aussie thinkin! I love it
Back-blading/back-dragging Hi, Folks. As many of you may know, I currently operate track loaders for a crust. Almost all of our work is leveling/cutting house sites ready for building. Many of these jobs involve getting material out of blind corners with vertical walls or getting material away from existing fences or retaining walls. Experience has shown that the fastest way to do it is to open the 4-in-1 bucket and drag it back out of the corner after ripping. This minimises the time spent turning and the wear and tear on the tracks of turning every bucketful, usually around 180 degrees, to get it to where you can get behind it to push it to its destination. Now I know that a track loader is NOT a dozer but it does still have tracks which ARE pulling in reverse when dragging back. We're still taking 4,000 to 5,000 hours, maybe more, out of a set of SALT tracks. Add to all of the above that we are also using spreader bars for most of our trimming work - to +/- around 15mm with laser monitoring - and that those spreader bars cut far better and far more controllably travelling backwards than forwards and you have a recipe for more track wear. Common practice is to cut backwards with the spreader bar and then push the acquired spoil away travelling forward while watching the laser sensor to see where you need to start cutting as you come back again for the next pass. I dunno about the rest of you, but within the limits of not deliberately abusing the machine, I have this tendency to make up my own mind about how best to use it to get the job done in the most efficient manner. I've heard most of the arguments about not back-blading/back-dragging over the last 40-odd years and, for mine, the people who preach them are welcome to them. Just don't try to shove them down my throat. I may regurgitate. LOL. Just my 0.02.
Good one, Dozer575 - at least as far as it goes. Hello, Dozer 575. I agree pretty much totally with what you posted in post #11 about wear on the blade while back-blading/back-dragging. In fact, it was one of your better posts - as far as you went. You neglected to mention the adverse effects of reverse loads on the tracks and drive sprockets. While these effects are fairly minimal when doing light back-blading on level ground, they can be greatly increased when back-dragging heavily out of somewhere awkward or when back-dragging uphill. Very often, these effects are further increased by the tendency to put down pressure on the blade, thus transferring extra load to the rear rollers/idlers and also the drive sprockets of oval-track machines - one more thing in favour of hi-sprocket designs, which also DON'T bunch up the loose track between the sprocket and the rear roller when travelling backwards. That said, I still go with my earlier statement of using the machine any way you need to in order to get the job done efficiently without deliberately abusing the machine. Iron Horse, see the middle of the paragraph above for how to avoid the track bunching up between the sprocket and the rear roller when travelling backwards - get the right machine for the job. LOL. Again, just my 0.02.
Crikey, Deas... your going to have to start reaching into the cookie jar...:lmao OCR... :laugh :laugh
i am driving a new D6T and before an D6R series 3 and both with gps on them and when i finishgrade on a site i am allmost every time alone on site and the last pass i make forward ill sideshift half a blade and backdrag with the automatic on that will just knock down the track marks and why not you must go backwards anyway and i read somewhere in this tread one that said the tracks would bunch up between rollers and sprocket thats the worst RUBBISH ive ever heard the ONLY reason for tracks bunching up is and always has been to much slack on the tracks which in my opinion meens a sloppy operator our mechanics says the onlu extra wear on our dozers when backdragging is the cutting edge bolts wearing down on the back on the blade but they always flamecut them and mount new bolts so that dosnt mean anything serious
Tracks Bunching Up. Hi, Grunk36. Quote: " and i read somewhere in this tread one that said the tracks would bunch up between rollers and sprocket thats the worst RUBBISH ive ever heard the ONLY reason for tracks bunching up is and always has been to much slack on the tracks which in my opinion meens a sloppy operator " Unquote. Whether or not that is 'RUBBISH' depends on whether or not the tractor is an oval track design or a high-sprocket drive. When an oval track machine is travelling backwards, the slack which is normally in the top of the track chain is pulled around the sprocket and down to the ground between the sprocket and the rear roller, which is what the posters above are referring to. If you see my last post above, #34, you will see that I have explained that this does not happen with high sprocket drives. What I did not add, because I did not think it necessary to explain it, is that the slack track chain on a high sprocket drive gathers between the drive sprocket and the rear idler where it is not under the same stresses as with an oval track machine, largely because there is more distance between the sprocket and the rear idler and the track itself is not in contact with the ground. What is the Danish equivalent of, 'Capische'? Or, do you understand? Just a word of advice: it is always a good idea on a forum such as this to make sure that your brain is switched on before putting your fingers into gear. In other words, make sure that you KNOW what you are talking about before declaring someone else's post to be 'RUBBISH'. (Hand goes to empty cookie jar, discovers only space, face grimaces and fingers post anyway.)
sorry deas i do not agree with you on this one i drive the hirh sprockets every day and when you just keep the tracks tightened according to what material your driving in there will not be that kind of slack youre talking about and even if it will get a little slack it wont be so much that it will increase the wearing of the chains it will all end up with lack of maintenance but this was not what this thread was about lets get back to the backdragging:usa
but deas ill agree with you with the oval drive tractors but in my opinion oval drive is not a real dozer
A REAL Dozer??????????? Hello, Grunk36. So what you are saying is that there were no REAL dozers until the Cat D10 came out in 1978? I faintly suspect that there might be some who would disagree with you on that one. Me, I'm only curious so I'd just like to ask a question, if I may. May I enquire what built or cleared so many roads and airfields during WW2, what destroyed so many pillboxes and other fortifications in the same war, what built so many highways, railways, dams, etc., and cleared so much farmland in the years leading up to the release of the first REAL dozer in 1978? Personally, I don't think we have strayed very far from the topic at all because we are still talking about back-blading/back-dragging. We have simply extended the topic scope to cover the effects of this practice on the machine itself which, for anyone who is familar with this forum, was always a foreseeable event.
A couple things that i backdrag for is when working in mud which has been mentioned. Trying to smooth up without foot deep ruts to hold water. When having to working in muddy conditions sometimes it is faster,easier,and the only way that you can finish the job. Also if clearing small and scattered brush and trees after i corner one out i will push pass the hole a little then just back drag loose dirt back in the hole and move on to others.Big trees is a different story.:usa
can i then ask you why do you think they made the dozers with elevated drive i am sure its not because it made the machine worse,, i have never said that the old dozers didnt do anything good but the progress have made the dozers a hell of a lot better i cant imagine anyone today that would rather sit in an D6 from 1965 than in an D6T from 2008 i have tryed driving the old one to even though it is older than me and that is the worst pain ive ever tryed:Banghead:Banghead which dozer is must productive/effective of those two???i will surely bet my money on the newest model i am not into the older models at all better off melting the metal from them down to use in the newer ones
The "special reason" in my case is that I'm working for the govt.:usa It was explained to me from the get-go that there's "the right way, the wrong way, and the govt. way. We're gonna do things the govt. way". I agree that having dirt rolling off the blade is wasteful, but the corps likes to see dirt rolling, the more the better, hence the big windrows. When in Rome... ointhead Actually, the pic I posted isn't a good example for what I was trying to explain, anyway- those big windrows would be pushed to the dike in the next pass. I was referring to the small windrows left at the end, in which case I would work the machine in both directions, as you stated in an earlier post.
Wow ( wheres the smiley thats ducking ) I have operated dozers and can put one to work BUT do not class myself a dozer operator ( some would say duck operator either ) When I read the original question, Yes I backblade, but if I do then only in float to wipe out a windrow. BUT yes I back blade to get material away from a face or corner, as stated its a tool to use not abuse. :drinkup
lol theres novice blade sharpeners and dil bags that say they never back drag thats poop! you have to use the machine whatever way you have to use it with that said i ve never had to smooth my forward path by dragging dirt back your just not getting it right the first time ,"at least until i learned how" and not putting pressure on the blade and floating it while you still have to cut a grade is a waste of time, iam balls out in r passing that dumb f sharpening his blade hmm wilst we are on the subject I constanly move the blade when grading and pushing yet ive had heated arguments with those who dont ???
Just a bit of common sense from the "RUBBISH" poster . No matter how tight the tracks are on a low sprocket machine , when pulling in reverse the sprockets are PUSHING the the lower length of track chain AWAY from themselves , and NOT pulling the chain towards themselves . grunk36 it is easier to pull a chain than push one .............
Real Dozers Back-blading/Back-dragging. Hello, Grunk36. I will not argue the point with you about productivity because it is patently obvious that the newer dozers are bigger, heavier and more powerful that their predecessors and it is size, weight, balance and horsepower that gets earth moved most efficiently. They also have more electronic gadgetry to go wrong, give trouble and cause the fitters and management severe headaches trying to cure the problems. What I AM saying is that there WERE real dozers before the Cat high sprocket drives, that they did REAL work really well and DID bunch up slack track chain between the sprocket and the rear track roller when travelling in reverse and that it had nothing to with operator slackness. It was simply a fact of life and the only way to avoid it was to have the tracks adjusted way over tight. A lot of people were dead against back-blading in any way, shape or form because it was believed that the blade base could be damaged and/or that it was a sign of a bad or incompetent operator or both. I'd happily bet that there were more dollars worth of damage done to tracks through back-blading/back-dragging than was ever done to blades and yet very few mentioned it as a reason for not working in reverse. One thing that is not well known is that high sprocket drives actually accelerate pin and bushing wear because the track chains have to bend around 3 radii instead of 2 in a full circuit of the track and all of those radii are smaller than the same radii in the equivalent oval track machines. It wasn't until sealed and lubricated track (SALT) was developed that high sprocket drives became viable because SALT so dramatically reduced pin and bushing wear. Just for chuckles, would you please tell me when the first high sprocket drive production crawler tractor was made. Quote from Grunk36: "better off melting the metal from them down to use in the newer ones ' Unquote. Boy, that comment is going to get you just a tad offside with a few folks on this forum and a lot of other vintage machinery forums around the 'net. You are entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect a lot of agreement with it.
I guess the 575 doesn't count as a "real dozer"? I don't have much time on bulldozers but like any piece of equipment there are certain things that apply here. Yeah the new dozers are nicer, smoother, faster, but even with all of those new gadgets and gimicks I'd like to see some of these people who won't get on an older machine keep up with those same older machines. Size does count but put your average operator with that narrow mindset on a machine and all you've got is a guy sitting there moving controls and some material. Take one of those other operators who WILL get on ANY machine and OPERATE it and it won't matter what size or age machine they're on they'll walk all over the first kind all day long.
i do not like the low drive dozers at all and not the komatsus either if i should drive an komatsu dozer my legs would have to get an extra knee i CANT get my legs in those japanese size machines but that is the worst i can say about them they can push allmost the same as there cousin cats
i agree with that but i was talking about the highdrives didnt think about the lowdrives
this i am with you on deas i agree with that
Thats true! I think Dozer575 is right on spot when it come to blade wear! of course there is some more wear on the blade when backdraging, but the dirt packed behind the blade acts as a bearing wich prevents wear to some point. usually i only push forward, only when preparing the motocross track i use to backdrag the jump faces to make a nice and smooth finnish! Here in Finland there is almosta always quite a lot of head size stones in the sand, so when backdraging the finnish is really bad...
Dear Mr. Plant:notworthy, Just to clarify your post about track wear on elevated sprocket machines... Are you saying that the track chain experiences more wear because the chain has to go around three bends instead of the 'standard' two? Or are you saying that, because of the severity of angles produced by smaller sprockets/idlers AND the fact that the chain actually spends more time 'becoming' bent and subsequently straightened to and from a more severe angle? I see the light in either side of the statement... just trying clarify. Thanks
highdrives are ****. we have a D8N and numerous D8K's... the K's out push the N no matter the conditions. and the undercarriage wears out twice as fast on the N. It takes more horse power to pull the rails around 2 idlers than it does just 1...... after having taken my first D8 transmission apart many years ago... i soon realized that the reverse directional clutch is smaller than the forward directional clutch... ever since i have not once back dragged. if a cat was designed to back drag it would have a blade on the back of it.
Did I say THAT?????????????????? Hi, F-1.08-F.G. Welkum two ther 4um. Ackshully, I meant both. They travel around 3 bends instead of 2 and all bends are of a smaller radius than those in similar-sized oval track machines. To some extent, I can understand the reason for the smaller idlers in D7 and up because of the rocker arrangement with the adjacent roller bogies. I can also to some extent understand why the sprockets are a smaller diameter than the previous oval track models, to fit in above the track frame with overly increasing the height of the jigger. Not for love or money can I figure out why they went for smaller idlers on the D6's and down where there is no rocker assembly being shared with any roller bogies. On top of that, Catskinner77V (I do like a man of conviction.) is right when he says that it is harder to drag the track chain around 2 idlers than one. He didn't mention that the smaller radius of the high sprocket tractor's idlers make it even harder still. Having said all of the above, I'd still take a high sprocket drive machine. D8R and above, for a hard day's work ripping or pushing rock over an earlier oval track dozer any day 'cos, IMHO, they DO ride smoother than the older machines due to the idlers being on rocker assemblies with their adjacent roller bogies. The D6's and down don't have that and the D7's are just a little light for much serious ripping in rock. Gotta consider my pore ol' bones these days. LOL.
Is sprocket wear less on a high track machine , as most of the abrasives would fall from the chain before it gets to the sprocket ? A high track machine also looks like the chain could jump a tooth or two when they get a bit of wear as they seem to only have several teeth in contact . Can this happen , especially when hard clay packs in the chains ?
my $0.02 One of the factors affecting wear on the high vs low debate is the number of links of the chain that the sproket is bearing on, ie that on a high drive the sproket is only fully engaging on under a third of it's teeth, on a conventional half the sproket is engaged. My expereience is that undercarriage life is not much different in either, and has more to do with other factors than this. On the new versus old debate i say this: Grunk 36, in my shed is a D6R. In my neighbours shed is a D7E 47a. The D7 was built way back when, and has 160 HP. I will absolutely guarantee that the 7 could push the 6 backwards, and probably do it in 2nd gear. I can absolutly guarantee that I can repair the 7, I can't say the same for the 6. So which is better???? Oh and I'm 6'2" and have no trouble fitting into the one komatsu I own.
Hurry up Deas.
Track wear on high sprocket machines. Hi, Iron Horse. Contrary to what some people would have you believe, Cat did not design and build the high sprocket drive to annoy D8Bob/Dozer 575 or Grunk36. The original idea was to get the contact between sprocket teeth and bushes up out of the dirt, mud, sand, rock, whatever. It worked. The fact that only 3 or 4 teeth are taking the load of driving each track at any one time does not matter. In spite of appearances, there are only 3 or 4 teeth on an oval track machine taking any real load at any one time too. Even though there are many more teeth actually 'meshing' with the chain, they are not taking any real load. I suspect that hard-packed clay could cause the teeth to fail to mesh properly and 'jump' but I have yet to have it happen on any high sprocket machine that I have operated. It seems that if it is soft enough to be picked up by the tracks, it is usually soft enough to also fall out again as the track goes on its merry way up to the sprocket. Remember that the track chain is partially inverted on its climb up to the sprocket. The first 2 D10X experimental dozers had top carrier rollers similar to the 'R' and 'T' series high sprocket drive machines. Then Cat decided to delete the top carrier rollers from D10X3 and D10X4. They also chose not to fit top carrier rollers to the first production run D10's, the D8L's, D9L's, D8N's, D9N's, D10N's or D11N's. I suspect that the idea behind this was to get more weight of chain hanging down from the front of the sprocket to improve the 'bite' of the teeth. What it really achieved was to leave a great long stretch of track chain whipping furiously up and down with the potential for huge amounts of needless wear and impact for no great gain in tooth grip. They remedied this defect with the 'R' series and I believe they made an optional retro-fit carrier roller kit for earlier machines. Hi, Trackfanatic. I suspect that you may be right about that old 160hp 47A D7E pushing the D6R backwards. I have no doubt at all that a 180hp D7E would do it, even though the D6R is pretty much the same weight. I also wouldn't mind putting a 2U/13A D8 at 130-140 hp up against a D6R, just for interest's sake and to try to remedy that 'cat-poison'. I'm also with you on the repairability bit. Whizz-bang electronic gadgetry does not necessarily make for a better machine. It does make them more complicated and gives more things to go wrong that are often a LOT harder to correctly diagnose. The same thought occurred to me about people not fitting into 'Kummagutsa' dozers when Grunk36 mentioned it. Is he 6' 14" tall or something? I know I'm only a runt at 4' 21" but I NEVER had any problem with leg room or operator space in any of the 'Kummagutsa' machines that I have operated, even down to a D41S track loader. Grunk36, I notice that you have not yet tried to answer my question about the first high sprocket drive crawler. Hi, OCR. Quick enuff?????????????????????????????????????
Wunn Wilde Beeste Hi, Sparffo. That D6C of yours is certainly 'wunn wilde beeste' with the fuel tank on the side like that and the other 'little extras' that it has. Would you still have a photo of the steering set-up to post here so that people can see what wonders have been wrought within the cabin? I suspect that some eyebrows might disappear into some hairlines. LOL. Thanks for sharing.
Masterful... as always. I was just viewing who's on line... and noticed you were replying. Just being smart again... might have to control that urge... Take care, OCR PS. Didn't mean for you to have to do an edit... but thanks.
deas .... no i cant answer that question because i wouldnt know when other then its before i was born i think
I guess a few or us are living the past! I guess all of us Oval Track guy's are living on borrowed time.......somebody should let John Deere, Kamatsu, Case and the other MFG's it's time to lock the doors. It's just an opinion on what's best just like "To Backdrag or Not to Backdrag" If it makes you money keep it, If not, get rid of it!
living in the past? after owning D8K's as long as I have, and having totally rebuilt a few of them from the fan hub all the way to the final drive... i like to consider them new machines again haha. They will push like an old pro, turn the fuel pumps down a bit and the fuel consumption is similar to the D8H. and heck, when you work by the hour, turning the pumps down isn't a bad idea!!! They still put food in the fridge, gas in my truck and keep the wife happy so as far as I concerned, there is nothing wrong with the older cats.... they are maybe even better. I had an old D8H that last 25,000 hours before the motor needed to be rebuilt... and who knows what kind of hours it had it on it before I bought it.
I think you are quite spot on here! they work very well because of the lack of nice ergonomical and enviromental gimmics:drinkup for smaller jobs a older CAT can be a really good choise, but not when you are working on big contracts with a shedule tighter than a TIER 3 engines piston clearance. then you need the parts and service support that is found for a new machine! uups, i almost forgot! we are talking CAT here, you have really good parts support for machines that are older than most operators and they are even easy to repair but at least the goverment and their emissions standards force the old machines to retire.
Well this goes back to the old saying "Man up" i don't know what kind of fluffly slippers you wear around the house in the evenings.... but the "old school" I learnt in taught me to appreciate the machine i was running for what it did..... not for how good the CD player worked or how soft the leather seat was. Those old cats have made me a very good living.... almost too good. I am getting older now, and I can still put in a good 15 hour day on any of my older 8's just as EASILY as I can put in a days work in a brand new D8T.... give me an open cab K or H on a nice summer/fall day and I will take it over any cabbed machine around..... winter of 2007 we moved 5 million yards of eath on the Winnipeg floodway expansion project... D9G's, D9H's pushing older 631 buggys, D8H + scrapers and D8K dozer/ripper cats to break clay froze 6 feet thick in most spots. We completed our contract just as quick as the fellas across the way running brand new equipment... and we didn't have multi million dollar a month lease payments either pretty easy for you trash talk older equipment when all you are is a simple operater who owns nothing more than this lunch kit.... stand back and look at it from the big picture buddy.
Catskinner, After carefully reading Sparffo's post, I believe that he was agreeing with you that the older machines are better. Remember that he's from Finland and might not phrase things quite like you or I would. This is the way I read his post- "I agree with you, the old ones are better BECAUSE they don't have all these cheap gizmos and gimmicks. Perhaps, though, on a job with a tight schedule a newer machine with better parts and service availability might be a better choice- BUT WAIT, this is Cat, they have great parts support for older machines and they are easy to fix, besides." I'll admit I don't quite understand the last sentence, the only way it would make sense to me would be if the word "least" was meant to be "last"? Am I correct, Sparffo :beatsme
Guys, everyone here is entitled to their own opinions of why they do or don't backdrag, the topic of this thread. It's interesting to hear all the reasons both for and against it, but there's no need to take anything personally or get riled up over. Everyone take a breath and relax, the personal attacks must stop here.
yes you are it's kinda funny how i can get parts for my D8 14a and D6c in two days from the States, but for my new Huyndai lc290 and Komatsu excavator it can take weeks... only bad thing with old cats here in Finland is, that when "marketing" the machine many people see the old machinery as scrap metall they just look at the age and assume that a contractor with new equipment is better. But i proved them wrong recently! I got a call to show one of my machines at one of our city soil landfill, i had no other than the double trouble MF3366 to bring there :beatsme the other machines were working somewhere else or "under repair". but the customer was quite surprised to see that a old piece scrap can out produce a new 25 tonnes excavator quite easily:drinkup If i get a year contract with our town, then i will start looking for a early 953. that was just to make things clear! Steve Frazier had a point there! an to be at least a little on topic, I usually backdrag quite often with the trackloaders
I will backdrag every now and then , sometimes you just gotta when theres no way around it
Glad you brought that up. I know this is a dozer thread, but how many backdrag with a loader - wheel, track, or TLB ?
Well, I wasn't going to say anything, but since we lowly TLB owners are now invited, I'll say that my 310C (or the 580E before that, or the 410B before that) is more useful than a pocket in my shirt. :drinkup Not only does it dig, load, fill, and backdrag, it boosts other machines, it is my portable crane, it rips frost, it pushes over trees, it sets telephone poles, it moves sheds, it pulls out stuck equipment, it is a mobile press, a mobile workbench and welding table, it splits wood, it is a radius-bender, a fire stoker and fire extinguisher, a rubble compactor, a childrens entertainment centre, a beaver dam renovation device wink2), a portable floodlight, a portable heated shelter, and most importantly, a friendship maker. Really my point is that the machine takes air and diesel fuel, and turns that into the potential to do useful work. The sky is the limit of what you can do. I guess some things are harder on it than others, but I will keep doing them because they save work, or do something I couldn't otherwise do. If it breaks, well, a wrench will need to get turned. Really, if someone tells me that a machine shouldn't be used for that, well, to me, that is somewhat of a challenge too. Especially if I'm the one paying the freight and taking the risk. John
WOW That was great , I enjoyed reading that very well put:drinkup , I tip my Cat hat to you
We backdrag all the time with wheel loaders, but they are a little different to dozers because you can operate the bucket at different angles. For pulling dirt away from walls etc. you can tip the bucket to vertical and drag the dirt back, this allso works well for pulling mounds in to hollow areas but then on shed pads you can backblade with a little pressure on a level bucket and achieve a level, flush finish. This is proabably not a real good comparison because there are no bolts to damage on the bottom of a loader bucket and there are no tracks to wear out. Rn'R.
Well like someone mentioned before, "what is the float position for?" And for the ones that say they never back blade, I'd like to know how well the float postion works when you try pushing forward? And Deas your right about wear going in reverse. The extra pressure on the recoil spring and adjuster etc. But average back blading would be no worse than a steep slope job where you are backing up the slope.
Wear/care factor. Hello, Dozer 575. Average back-blading on flat ground would, IMHO, not be as bad for wear on track components as backing up steep or even moderate slopes. It all has to do with how much load is being placed on the drives and track components. It's only when you start heavy back-DRAGGING that the wear factor starts getting up there with reversing up moderate to steep slopes. A lot of this also comes down to the care factor of the operator. I had a job yesterday where I had to track roll a slope of about 2 1/2 in 1 with a Cat 943. I had the option of working either way on it and chose to work with the engine downhill, driving face first up the slope, so that the tracks were driving the right way under the heavier load. This in spite of the fact that the 943's will back up steeper slopes that they will drive up due to the rear engine and ours all have rear 'scarifiers' too. Mind you, opening the 4-in-1 bucket and rolling it forward almost into the dump position helps them to climb face first too by getting extra weight up front. But I'm still learning.
Everyone backdrags, can't avoid it at times
Allen there is a big difference in guys to back drag regularly to make thier work look nicer... than the guy that uses his blade to pull material away from a manhole or hydrant. After taking D8 transmissions apart years ago, i soon realized the reverse clutch is smaller than the forward directional clutch. None of my cats are allowed to back drag regularly.... period. they just are not designed to pull more than thier own wieght in reverse. not only is it hard on recoils and front idlers... its also hard on final drive pinions..... the gear is no longer pushing on the reduction gear, its trying to pull away from it. \ In the rear of the transmission, in the transfer gear case. The transmission pinion gear, when in transmission in forward speeds the gear is spinning in a manner that tries to pull it out of the transmission, but it can't because its meshing on the bevel gear. when you throw her in reverse, its trying to push the pinion into the transmission and away from the bevel gear, thus if things are worn out.... like most things are lol, you are not meshing the pinion and the bevel at thier strongest points.
I'll backdrag when there is no othe way or its a very small amount of material. As Cat Skinner said, when your close to a building or curbs, manholes, etc there is no other way. I will however float drag to knock down lil ridges, cover the track marks things of that nature, but just floating them back. We have two Dresser 15's that both have over 24K on them and have never had an issue with the finals, rearend or transmissions. The D6 at my new job has bout 6500 hours on it and is just fine as well. I look at it the same was as Deas said bout digging over drive motors(see excavator page), for just a lil bit of material or a real short distance I'm not going to turn the machine all the way around and go the other way(just use your head as to know when how much is TOO much). Trbo
:Banghead Backdraggers:Banghead 77v, Just curious to know, if you see one of your operators Backdragging, do you say something to him about it? The owner of dozers I ran was sure to no matter who the operator. He owned them and paid for the maintenance, so I guess he had the right to want the machine operated his way. It was my understanding the the "Float" valve was a pressure relief valve, not solely for causing unnessary wear to the back of the blade and trunion arms. I like others am still learning, and maybe it dont hurt a thing.:beatsme And not everyone does it on a regular basis. Maybe pull away material or to help with drainage, but all the time? Uh, No. I work alot of shot rock, and there is absolutely no need for it there.
we rarely work with rock or small aggregates..... we run heavy equipment, not bobcats on steel tracks. Theres is absolutely no reason whatsover, to ever back blade with a D8. they are not a finishing cat. and when i see one of my operators doin anything I don't like, your damn rights i tell them what I think!! The float valve makes the hydralic pump circulate oil, when its minus 10 or colder, i always stick them in float while they are warming up to help the oil warm up quicker. Just like with any powershift transmission, you should always just stick them in gear for a quick second when you first fire them up, to make sure your transmission pump has a prime..... you can screw up the pump and alot of bearings a in hurry if you let it sit and idle for too long without any pressure in the pump.
I was unaware of having to prime the pump, and just learned something new.Thanks! We had a couple 8K 77v's for a long time, then the boss switched to an 8R but kept one of the K's for a while, then finally sold it, but he still claimed the 77's would push more. I spoiled myself with the cab and not having to switch the fan blades around to keep warm, then not having them switched back to get "sandblasted" or cooked in the summer. Built a few miles of logging road with the K. Been on a 6R for the last year, and as it dont push nearly what the 8's do, it's still a nice machine.
you don't have to prime the pump, just make sure it has prime. just putting in gear quickly will tell you that you have a prime, because it takes oil pressure to engage the clutches in the transmission......when the hoses and o-rings that connect the bottom of the transmission to the pump get all cracked and rotten, they can leak air and you will loose your prime. We have a D8N, and its such a piece of junk, i hate that damn thing, the AC doesn't work half the time, and inside that cab when its plus 35 is just about murder on yourself. much rather be under a nice shady canopy with a light breeze blowing through on a hot day. Old elvira (my very first D8K) when she was all sick with a more blowby than exhaust and a transmission and torque that would run in the red all day long. would still out push that useless N. THe highdrives will move faster, but the guys around here still like to hire the K's for stumping and stripping, slot dozing, etc. because they just have the muscle.
also, the oil pumps in the finals only work while going forward The hydraulic system is open center, the pump recirculates oil back to the tank whether it's in hold or float.
It all depends on who's operating it, and they make nice large finishing cats ie the reason I like them things.
Depends on many things, especially material, but also compaction, moisture, and reason for doing it. As long as the dozer man is leaving a nicely bladed finish, I don't have a problem with a man dragging occasionally. I don't like someone to ""finish"" their work by dragging. I want to see how that blade cut the material. I find it to be a better indication of the grade you've really got.
Horses for courses. Hi, CatSkinner77V. You seem to be putting your humble opinion in rather 'absolute' terms. I have done quite a bit of finishing work with D8H's, especially when sinking (building) farm dams and have often found it useful to be able to drag some material away from an edge or out of a corner. Beats the B'jazuz out of turning the whole machine around in a confined space or, even more entertaining, trying to hang the jigger on skyhooks 'cos there ain't anywhere outboard of the edge to stand on to PUSH the material back away from said edge. When finishing these farm dams, any left-over windrow bigger than about 2" was considered a pretty scruffy job. The preferred result was NO left-over windrows. All dams were cut over twice. The first time was to 'shape' the banks and corners and get all the 'bulk' loose material up on top of the bank. The second cut was to 'polish' the job and remove any remaining windrows. The top of the bank and any overflows and/or silt traps were the last things to be done. I found the 270 hp D8H's with the side-mounted hydraulic tanks one of the easier machines with which to do this finishing work, size regardless. I back-blade/back-drag when I see a need for it but I don't think you will ever have to go crook at me for doing it. I doubt I'll ever be on your payroll while I live DownUnder.
Interesting to see how different people do it. Up here I always cut rills about a foot deep across the face of a dam after building it. Cut it pretty smooth first and then take a "nice" job and attack it, with the cuts running on a slight chevron back into the banks either side. The idea is to prevent the first storm washing down the face of a dry wall. On an earth tank or a turkeys nest I tend to do a smooth finish, but unless it's pretty small I will have had a scraper with me so there's enough compaction that you can get away with it. I can't get that sort of compaction out of a dozer, and have seen a wall with ruts 3' deep down it once when the first rain was a serious one. Besides all that scruffy stuff should be under water by January.
Ah ya kinda gota finish by back dragging if ya don't theres a tracky mess. And besides after its nice an compacted you don't need to see any how it cut the material deal, cause you have some nice solid material to work with.
i wasn't suggesting that a D8 can't make a nice looking job, I do that type of work alot with my cats. What i was getting at is a D8 isn't the type of machine you use in confined spaces, working road construction pushing crushed aggregates, trying to get grade within a half inch.
D8 in confined spaces. Hi, CatSkinner77V. So a D8 is not the sort of machine that you put into confined spaces? How does a 250 cu. yd dam sound, 50 feet square on top, 13 feet square on the bottom, 6 feet deep, 3-in-1 batters, all very neatly cleaned up? My SMALLEST dam. LOL. One of the things that I seem to be pretty good at is operating in confined spaces and it doesn't much matter what sort of machine it is or what the job is. I won't say it is easy but I find it a lot easier than some I've seen. I also had a D7F with a tree pusher bar fitted in a pump station intake chamber shaped like a figure 8 with each half of the 8 being 36 feet in diameter. I was ripping shot rock for a Case 1150 track loader to muck out. The tree pusher bar stuck out about 8 feet ahead of the blade. Challenging, considering that the holes were 24 feet deep with only one 14 foot wide opening where the 2 halves of the 8 met on one side. I once dug a hole for a swimming pool with that same D7F - with the tree pusher still fitted. If memory serves me right, it was 24 feet long, 14 feet wide, 7 feet deep at the deep end, 3 feet deep at the shallow end with a ramp out of the shallow end. Now THAT one involved a LOT of back-dragging to get the last of the material out of the hole. The hole needed excavating and the D7F was what we had handy to do the job. Nice looking pool too. Midnight blue below the waterline, sky blue above, with underwater lights - very effective at night.
Deas, its sounds like you did well enough digging the hole to be invited back for the chistening pool party... And as for finishing with big cats, they can do it with the right operator. I've seen a guy spread topsoil with a D9L, and it looked good when they were done. I'm not saying that I want a 9L backfilling my house foundation, but I'd let that guy do it. He ran that 9L like an extention of his hand.
Re: Finishing Hi, Stumpjumper83. No, I didn't get invited to the pool christening party but I did get back to see the pool a couple of months later - and was made most welcome. That D9L operator sounds like the 'real thing'. A really good operator is a pleasure to watch. A poor one leaves me wanting to get on the machine and do it myself, properly. Sometimes, I just have to grin and bear it - and keep my mouth shut - and THAT can be the hardest part.
If you know your machine you should be able to finish with it regardless of size. Other than the little trim dozer we have I can finish better with the 8K than the 6R because I have something like 12k hours in the chair of the old doll and after that amount of time I reckon I know her pretty well. Of course there's something kinda futile in burning that much fuel to shift 1" of dirt...
And back on topic, today I was trimming some roads down hills for a local farmer. every couple of hundred yards I put in a bit of a whoa boy to divert water from running down the road. Every bank I walked on top of, dropped the blade and dragged it back to smooth the other approach. Backdragging, while backing up hill. Damm looks like I might have to get fired... The option was to walk down, turn around and walk back about 1/2 Km to do a 10 second job.
Re Back-dragging -Collect your entitlements, Boy. Hi, Trackfanatic. I guess you better front up and collect your entitlements, holiday pay, super., Long service leave, etc.. Just ask for Big Pete at the Pearly Gates. He'll fix you up. LOL. I've put in a few 'whoa-boys' too. They're not bad when you're using a dozer with a tilt cylinder but they are an interesting proposition when you're using a track loader with a 4-in-1 NON-tilting bucket and they are angled across the road - and you have trees both sides - or a bank on one side and a drop on the other. It's all in a day's fun.
Never been on a track loader but can imagine the fun. I was on the little kummagutsa doing it. I might whinge about "21 days from Japan" on parts, I might groan about no diagonal braces so God it's rough, but one thing I will say is armed with PAT I can shape dirt... a teaspoon full at a time.
Funny you should mention that. Hi, Trackfanatic. Funny you should mention that little Kummagutsa and enjoying your time on it. The only Kummagutsas that I really didn't enjoy operating were a couple of D85's. Even with rippers, they were too light on the 'rump' end, making them somewhat unpredictable on slopes, especially backing up slopes diagonally. I got the distinct impression that it would not be too difficult to find oneself somersaulting diagonally down the hill at an alarming rate without much notice of intent from the jigger. Other than those two, I've run D65's, both normal and swamp, D155's, D355's and (briefly) a D455 - with a U-blade, push-loading Cat 660 scrapers at Hervey Bay. I've also had my 'delicate derierre' on D55S's, D57S's and a D75S, along with several of their 4wd loaders and a GD825 grader. I liked 'em all, with the exceptions of the 2 x D85's for reasons previously mentioned. They ALL worked well, although the D455 was a tad tired and liked a drop - or sixty - of Arab Gold in the donk - DAILY. They burned diesel fuel, made noise and moved dirt so what's not to like - - except the service here in sunny Q-land?
Deas I've just posted my considered opinion on the Kummagutsa in the Lets talk Komatsu thread. No suprises there.
Backdragging!!! If backdragging is such a NO! NO! and I do understand that there is some wear on undercarriages but wouldn't useing back-up rippers be just as bad if not worse? I know a lot of operators who use them and thinking of getting them on my next machine along with a winch.
Now you've gone and done it. Hi, OK Dirt Witcher. Now you've gone and done it. You WEREN'T supposed to mention anything like that 'cos it puts a crimp in the argumets of the anti-back-dragging lobby. Likewise, nobody was supposed to mention backing up steep slopes as being a track killer. From where I stand, it seems that the track wear argument against working in reverse applies a LOT more to oval-track machines than to high-sprocket drives 'cos a high-sprocket drive CAN'T bunch the track up between itself and the rear track roller. A high-sprocket drive exerts more or less the same forces on the track chain and the idlers whichever way it is driving. With this in mind, if you want back-up rippers on your next machine, maybe you ought to consider a high-sprocket drive machine - - - just NOT the Chinese imitations. I have some pieces of transmission gears from one of them on top of my bookcase. They had 800 hours up.
I thought!! LOL I was wondering if that might not get minds turning and gears rattling????:Banghead It's like that thing-of-ma-jig that keeps that bull gear from jumpin that heifer cob! LOL
we contract log here in wv and we actually contracted for one land company where we had to back drag EVERY road on the job, when you leave youre not supposed to see a dozer or skidder track anywhere
We do alot of road building and when we reclaim our borrow pits the topsoil is pretty muddy and we have to backblade out the ruts. Kinda tough to get around it when the cats are leaving foot and a half ruts blading forward.
Anyone that never back drags, has never done finish work. You can not compact with track ruts. Period.
Compacting with track ruts Hello, Dozer 575, I may be just an old dinosaur but, for mine, if you still need major compaction effort after you've trimmed, you've missed a step or 3 in the process. Also, if you have a smallish area like a house pad with cut banks of 3' - 4' or more with a spoon drain at the bottom on two sides and spill slope drop-offs of 3' - 4' or more on the other two sides, how do you get rid of the left-over material under your blade without putting more track marks on your 'finished' surface and how do you back drag right to the edges. As you go over the edge, your blade is going to come off the ground leaving a nasty lump of loose material there which you then have to get back up on the pad to push off, leaving more track marks. Catch 22. The above is why we use track loaders with 4-in-1 buckets and spreader bars or excavbators with spreader bars for all our house pad work - and we do a bit, around 600 a year for just one customer and we'd have a hundred or more customers. Yes, I did use a Cat D5B dozer for 2 1/2 years doing house pads but I never back dragged a single house pad to finish it with that dozer - or any other. Just track roll in 1 foot layers to compact and trim it going forward. Why bother? You should see what the plumbers do to the pad straight after we leave. Just my - humble - 0.02.
Hey Deas, I have all the respect in the world for your opinion but I just have to put my .02 in here. I also do pads and I use a BD2G. I backdrag to the edge and just after my tracks start to leave and the front comes up I just put the blade down to bring the spoil with me over the edge, then keep it moving just a few feet to make it smooth. Doesn't make it right but it works for me here in Texas. By the way.....I saw an opinion that you gave on the history of "Old Caterpillers" today and your knowledge is fantastic. I'm 70 and wish I had a fraction of the things you have knowledge of stored in your head. I learn from you every day on here, Thanks!! Keep feeding the info..never too old to learn OR change!! Reddog848
And you know- It sounded like such an easy question. Whudda thunk?? And yes- I've learned lots from this threasd, and learned there's a lot more I need to learn.
Backdragging ? Holy cow, I can't believe the length of this discussion. Never knew I could get fired for back dragging till today, 39 years later . LOL The 800 Mile Trans Alaska Pipeline was built, with Angle Dozer D8K's, D8h's doing the final clean up. finishing it. And they backdragged every bit of it. No dozer tracks when they got done. I was there doing my share of it. You can't get off the pad or ROW to push from behind the spoil pile for backfilling. Most of the time. Some places you could. The trick to making a smooth pass in varying underfoot conditions is to use every technique possible. If your track ruts are very deep, then you have to apply some down pressure to get the material to fill in your ruts. Sometimes backing up in sweeping arcs, like buttering toast. In sands use hold and float at varying times , to avoid heavy windrows . In gravels use slight down pressure, float, and hold at varying times. When you have a pile at the edge, or a cut to make, just take a little at a time , don't expect to do it all at once. On gravel windrows, the height of the windrow will tell you when you can float, hold, or apply down pressure to spread it out smoothly across the width of the blade without creating new windrows. Onto commercial work, finish grading for floor slabs was always done by backdragging,with small dozers. Of course the new laser and GPS controls help eliminate lot of that. But the final passes still cannot have the grouser indentations. Never heard of Cats losing their prime during start up. Working on steep slopes , I've know D7's and D9's to lose their prime, and a wild backward downhill ride at that. Overfilling the transmission was the cure. Yes, old hoses with cracks will leak allowing air to get in, and lose prime. Sometimes the sync pump had to be replaced. Backdragging doesn't create any tremendous work load , unless you have lots of down pressure. It's just the weight of the dozer blade. On loose material. If you need to move a lot of material,or heavy cutting , of course then forward doze. But as in landscaping work on road work, or pipeline work , with the varying soil conditions and tight ROW's , finishing is accomplished by backdragging. Almost forgot, the D8K Angle Dozer and D6C Angle Dozers were my favorite for cleanup or finishing work . Now the new PAT D-4,5,6 dozers are the choice. Much more agile, for the narrow confines . Anyway, that's what I've got to add . :usa
Does anyone make a curved blade to mount onto the ripper tynes to back drag while going forwards ? Ive seen them on tractor pulled stone crushers for rehabilitating gravel roads . It seems to me on big runs like that pipe line it would be be a real time saver . And one that could be angled would bring the spoils into the center .
Back dragging horses for courses Hi, Reddog848. Thank you for your kind comments about my posts and my knowledge of Caterpillar. Things like that make it all a bit more worthwhile doing what I do here, I have LIVED earthmoving and construction machinery as well as operating them for well over 40 years now. I guess a little bit of it musta stuck between my ears. Ah well, there's p[lenty of room for it in there. LOL. The length of the machine, its point of balance and the slope of the batter that you are going over make quite a difference to whether or not you can keep your blade on the ground to take your material over the edge with you. A smaller, shorter machine may well have a bit of an advantage here and a machine with no ripper will be way ahead of one with a ripper. The Cat D5B that I mentioned had quite a substantial ripper fitted to it. Without it, I would not have been able to do a lot of jobs that I did. But it didn't make dragging material over a drop any easier. Also, almost all of our jobs are spill slope batters, at least while we are cleaning up and trimming. If there is enough pad area outside the actual house area, we will sometimes cut a bit flatter batter for appearance sake. But, as I mentioned in my earlier post, you should see what the plumbers do to a pad when they come in after us. Keep on havin' fun, M8.
Deas, just keep the info and knowledge coming... I ain't ready to stop learning yet. A lot of things may be bigger here in Texas but it's not our brains, we need to keep feeding them information. Thanks again for all you do here!! Reddog848
Just about everybody backdrags in the coal mine where I work, when your running a fill and you get to the end you back up to start over, back drag your back to smooth up for the trucks and smash rocks because the tires on a Euclid260 or a cat 793 go for upwards of 20 grand. Use the machine whatever works get-r-done!
Welcome to HEF freewheeler :drinkup
i agree use the machine how it works best. if you've got to backdrag in a big dozer to flatten out for the shovel or haul trucks that's fine. back draggin 2 miles of road, maybe think about putting a blade to it or time for some fresh material. finish dozers backdrag all the time- windrows- mud, material in corners or against wall. i do believe the dozer is designed to work by pushing but sometimes a backdrag is necessery
Just my .02 cents. Backdragging is a natural act, and a good dozer man doesn't have to explain or defend himself on this issue. Pushing a pass and backblading a pass is simply a matter of good efficiency and utilizing every pass you make. You do what works, as long as it's productive and not abusive; two most important things to remember in operations. No two people do things exactly the same either. I've heard the buzz about never digging over drive motors with excavators, running graders at warp speeds and having the end result be perfect, and so on. Sometimes according to conditions, and we are all guilty of it...the rules have to be broken...but it doesn't mean the equipment has to be either. No matter how high tech this world becomes and how operator friendly the machines get, there will never be a substitute for smoothness, attention to detail, and common sense when running anything from a plate compactor to a D-10. It's all in the operator's hands at that point. Want to build a good reputation with your company/owners/customers, then pay attention to detail. Want to do the opposite...just run it like you stole it, like a lot of them do. It'll show.
Very well said LowBoy, I agree 100%
That reminds me of a local guy, the best operator that ever lived (if you have any doubts, just ask him ), who swears that the only way to fine grade with a dozer is at max speed. Apparently, the idea is to sort of "sling" the dirt into place- maybe he's working off the same theory as the mach 2 grader guys? Anyway, I've never seen any of his "finished" work, but I've heard stories... I wonder if he backdrags, hafta ask the next time I run into him.
I know the type really well dieseldave. This "slinging" theory...My dad used to achieve the same looking results dragging around an old set of bedsprings with cinderblocks wired to them for weight years ago...
Yers ago they use to drag old wore out cat rails to finish the backslopes,ditch bottoms,and forslopes to get them to pass inspection on all the road work.Not only the state roadwork,but also the county jobs. Thats back when the inspectors was really picky about how things was done.:usa
More on backblading I used to work for the Soil Conservation Service in NSW, Australia first as a dozer operator and then as a foreman-operator and we used Cat D5B's with straight blade and rippers for the work we did creating contour channels and dams on agricultural land to stop or prevent erosion and water loss. Unusually for a Govt department we were told we had to compete with private enterprise contractors and do a better job in less time! That meant full throttle all day in the highest gear that could get the job done effectively and efficiently. Of course you used the decelerator if going over rock or other rough conditions that could damage the dozer. Our contour banks generally had a fall of 1" every 100 feet and had to be even so no ponding occurred. Creating the contour banks was an artful process as we didn't want to bury all the topsoil and needed windrows of topsoil left in the process to spread over the work in the final grade. We also only charged the farmer by the hours on the hour meter and no idling was allowed. When the operator took a break the foreman got on the machine and continued the work until the break was finished and then it was back to the operator. Needless to say the farmers were impressed and private contractors couldn't match our work rate, quality or price. It also helped that the Service took good ideas and methodology from operators all over the state and shared the knowledge actively. I never experienced any breakdowns caused by our work practices and all machines were on a good maintenance schedule with regular oil sampling. Now what was this subject about again, oh yeah backblading. Our crew never backbladed, though some others did. It was generally frowned upon and seen as lazy. Dozer tracks on the work were usually neat and orderly and showed the pattern of an operators work and efficiency. However if a really track free finish was required because the soil was really cloddy or similar, we just hooked up a set of pasture harrows behind the four wheel drive and ran over the job with them as fast as we could safely go. Way faster than backblading and absolutely no windrows. Sometimes a bit of grass seed might be thrown on before harrowing too. Well that's my 2cents. Have fun, Dave
My dad (and his father too back in the day) does the same thing, only with a piece of chain link fence with old Corvair wheels on it :lmao
o k it is nice to c u gys py htnn,
what? Are you "texting" someone on H.E.F.?
Colorado Digger: Welcome to the Heavy Equipment Forums. Here's a tip, English is the language used here.
Is that "texting"?:beatsme I thought Ozzie Osborne was with us.
My dad had the Cadillac of drags dieseldave. He had a 1927 McCormick-Deering F-12 narrow front end tractor (at least the tires weren't iron,) and used to pull a homemade drag built of 12" c-beam. Two 20 foot long beams with 4 8 foot wide channels contacting the ground, and bolted together so it would fold up as he turned around in tight quarters. That thing worked slick, as we lived on a 1 mile long dirt road with several neighbors, but no one but dad ever did a lick of work on that road the 40 years he was living there. That was definitely the grader, maintainer, and finisher. He then fabricated a "blade" on the front, with a 4' X 8' sheet of 3/8" boilerplate. 2 outside lift arms, and a chainfall mounted out front on a sort of snowplow frame. A 1" galvanized pipe all the way from the chainfall out front, to the driver's seat, and a few 90 degree threaded elbows to form a crank handle. Turn the crank 15-20 times...blade down. 15-20 more the opposite way...blade up. Good if you're by the hour, not on a bid job.
I just read skimmed though most of this very interesting thread, and I have a couple of thoughts. Pardon me if I am duplicating what has been said. I understand the points about track bunching slack between the sprocket and rear rollers when backing up under load, whether back dragging or backing up hill. It seems to me that the fundamental difference between running forward and reverse is that when loading in reverse, the recoil mechanism is between the sprocket and the track/ground engagement, so the loading is able to pull and bunch slack by compressing the recoil. Whereas, when loading forward, the recoil mechanism is not involved in the loading. There was some discussion about the high track pulling the track around two idlers. In connection with that, I note that on a high track, each link joint folds, unfolds, and folds again, all under load, with each revolution of track when the tractor pushes. Whereas with an oval track pushing, each link just folds once under load with each track revolution. I don’t see anything wrong with back dragging to make the work look nice if you are in the final phase of finish grading, and want the work to look nice. However, I do know that novices are often quickly attracted to the seemingly easy payoff of back dragging, and can get in the habit of doing it every time they back up. But for finish grading, whether with a dozer or track loader, back dragging seems as important as toweling when finishing cement. Not only does back dragging smooth the surface and even out compaction, but it also pulverizes chunks. But I am inclined to not use float for back dragging. I put the blade or bucket on the ground in the hold position, and make small adjustments up and pressure-down while backing up to actually grade to the extent possible with micro cuts and fills. With the final passes, I just let it back drag in hold with no adjustment. With a track loader, I finish grade with the bucket flat and about 2/3 full of dirt. The weight seems to balance the tractor and stabilize it for micro cuts and fills going both backwards and forwards. The dirt in the bucket also prevents it from gouging going forward, and allows the bucket to cut, transport, and spill like a dozer blade does. In other words, the dirt being graded is out ahead of the pile in the bucket. The pile stays in the bucket as the grading proceeds.
Yair...off topic but trackfanatic raises some ancient woes and troubles. Anything I absolutely detest and refuse to wear is grovelling around in the dirt under a scraper-bowl or dozer blade with a gas-axe because some slack arse fitter installed over length cutting edge bolts!!! Cutting edge bolts are NOT an expendable item. The correct length in the real world is one thread inside the nut. If they are long and protude, shim the nuts out with flat washers, run on an extra nut, or burn them off flush with the nut with a ten inch grinder. With Never Sieze applied at installation even worn nuts will spin off easy with a flank drive socket. I weld premade lifting handles onto the segments to make them easier to handle and approach and edge roll or change like a tyre change on a race car. With a spare set of bolts all greased up and ready we used to get 627's back into the cut in under fifteen minutes.
I do it all the time, and don't know what i'd do without it!!
I yell at my operators if they dont back drag. I want the blade down as much in reverse as I do in forward. The little extra wear on the machine isnt enough to me to not have the jobs looking nice all the time. This business is competive and the jobs looking nice is a must. If fact I talk trash about other dirt contractors that dont leave thier jobs slick. Just my 2 cents though.
Makes sense to back drag. Why not?
I back drags all the time. I run sevral thousand acers of cattle and when i run my dozer feild to feild i backdrags to grade the road as i go and level of manure piles, etc. Plus saves lots of time and cost of fuel and runnin other equipments.
Best finish I ever managed was on a reinstated borrow pit, some 13 acres. I cut two holes in the edge of a forty-foot sheet pile and towed it round with a D6H and two-leg chains. On back-blading, I like to see a good finish with parallel track marks, but most jobs I worked on the inspectors didn't, so back of the blade it was. If the underlying finish is level, all you're doing is knocking off the grouser marks. I'd never back-blade to "achieve" level, only to polish it. And I use the float. If the underlying finish is cut to level, the blade won't dig in or bounce.
overloaded D4 Hey Graham, I'm surprized the D4 would tow that and you at the same time:beatsme-bet theres some black smoke!!!!! Neil (returning the favour)
i dont drive the dozer much on our firm, as im an excavator driver, but when i do my foreman and boss insist on backblading everything, they like to see no trace of machines ever being on site, and want every job real tidy, so im always smoothing out my excavator tracks aswell! here is a landscaped bund back bladed with our d6m lgp done a couple of weeks ago...
A drag pulled by the dozer or a tractor will give the same finish (or a better one) on landscaping work, it's faster and theirs a lot less wear on the running gear of the dozer.
back blading hi guys ,i always drop in here for a quick look ,get some pretty interesting threads ,boy did this one hit a nerv, i think times hav changed a lot since the old days i dont think it was the blade wear that the old timers were worried about more the fact that a lot of the old cable blade machines didnt hav the big heavy trunnion caps on the draft arms like the moder era dozers hav, most only had a verticle bolt or a wedge this could easily be pulled of buy back blading causing lots of down time and probaly the odd beatting !! i was allways told it was "bad" but in the modern mine saftey culture i all ways back blade a short strip where i park the dozer this makes for safer pre starts and you can allso see any leaks under the tractor,allso if we change out dump ropes or do bucket repairs i back blade a area around the bucket ,you can buy a lot of cutting edge bolts for the price of a broken ankle! the only thing that peeves me is when you see blokes chasing rills with a big dozer if they were paying for the dozer they would want the blade full all the time , get it level then hit it with a grader.
I think there is times when back dragging is needed and times when it is not. When i'm finishing up on the job site i'm on now. I back drag before I leave one area to another. New guy here and love this site Other people just don't understand
well my grandfather has been running dozers for the past 58 years and is an expert on a dozer and you really cant grade too well forwards with a cable job cause of the way the blade is but i guess its possible and yeah he backdrags quite a bit
Yair . . . caterpillarRy. Mate that is one of the old wives tales that has cropped up since the the string went out . . . and it is completely wrong. There is nothing wrong with a cable blade blade to grade with, in some ways they are better than hydraulic, especialy for clearing fence-lines and tracks . . . very fast lift. Cheers.
I only back drag when I'm finish grading. Sometimes I just have those off days when I can't seem to carry grade, and back dragging helps. I don't see anything wrong with it.
think for a second because of the shape of the blade it will drag the blade down if your going forwards and have a little slack but in anycase cabel isnt bad ive got 2 cabel d7s so i know that they arent bad machines
You will Never see me back drag unless im slicking up a mud hole, or pulling a my windrow out of the bottom of a ditch. If you cant make it look good going forward, let someone else run the machine that can.
vapor300, Funny you say that, although not hoping for an argument but I was taught that a blade only cuts while moving forward however, in 26 years of operating I have found that back dragging, back blading etc. is just another technique an Operator has that helps him or her get the job done. If you're grading a golf course or performing land shaping you had better master back dragging because leaving track marks or windrows no matter how slight or small will get you fired fairly quickly.
co-sign
co sign , me too
I should add to my original reply that a dozer Operator that can sculpt a golf course is more artist that anything else knowing it has to be PERFECT! It's no wonder they seem to be the highest paid dozer Operators around.
Backblading was always seen as the unskilled operators method of trying to smooth out washboard, that he'd made, trying to level going forwards. Anytime I did back-blading when I was being taught at age 16, I'd get hollered at, and told not to do it - it was the sign of an incompetent operator. Then there's the likely damage caused to cutting edge nuts and bolt threads when you hit something such as a rock when dragging the blade backwards in float. A badly worn cutting edge is most susceptible to this problem. That's damage guaranteed to make you curse, if you're the one who has to change the edge when it's worn out. Secondly, there's the chance of damage to a new cutting edge if you hit a rock whilst back-blading. The cutting edge has support when travelling forward, it has no support when travelling backwards. In the old days before better quality cutting edges such as the boron alloy steel we have today, it wasn't unusual for you to be able to break a chunk out of the cutting edge if you whacked a rock whilst back-blading, particularly if you were travelling in 2nd or 3rd reverse. Having said all that, it is necessary to do back-blading occasionally, when you need a totally smooth surface, not chopped up by grousers. It just pays to ensure that there's no rocks in the surface you're back-blading.
ME THREE!!!! I can't believe this thread has lasted 150 or so posts.99.9999999% of my dozing jobs demand a back blade glass finish.Maybe antique dozers would break some hardware running reverse back blading,but certainly NOT any modern dozer in this day and age.If some old timer here[I'm one myself] can tell me how to erase my tracks while going forward I'm all ears.
You know you don't have to put the blade in float to backdrag, don't you? I often don't put it in float. You can grade going backward like you can going forward.
Buckethead, I was waiting for someone to bring that up. I do back blade but I very rarely do so in float.
As for a float back blade, now that I would say is for an amatuer. You have to have the same control over the blade, forward or reverse...IMHO!
Yes, I do know you don't have to use float for back-blading. However, using the hydraulics whilst back-blading makes the dirt build up behind the blade, and then it gets picked up by the tracks and hurled up and back, obscuring your vision. You know what most people think, when they see someone holding or using a tool backwards, don't you! LOL
New to the HEF site ,do alot of reading :drinkup The man who writes the check , is the one who decides weather I back drag or not.
back draging a mound or something on a gold course is tottally different and like i said sometimes it has to be done. but i have see operators back drag a road because the could blade it off smooth goin forward, that i think is a rookie
Not being a dozer hand, yet, I really don't have a dog in this fight but since Sea Mac brought up golf course shapers I'm inclined to repeat a quote from a man I knew in Fitzgerald Georgia named Bruce who worked as a dozer hand for the local rich mans excavation outfit. He took frequent leaves of absence from his regular job to shape golf courses for Arnold Palmer. He was a joy to watch on any piece of equipment he got on because he was just that good. He was dozing a pad for a warehouse addition one day and I asked him why he moved dirt coming and going and he said "if the tractor is moving and the dirt ain't you are wasting time, fuel and my patience". He winked when he said it and I always knew him to be easy going, so I'm sure he wasn't trying to be a hard ***. I backdrag with everything else so I fully intend to backdrag with a dozer as I learn. If the man mentoring me prefers I not backdrag, then I will honor his wishes and use his equipment in the manner he so desires. When it is up to my discretion, I will employ it where and when it is the best technique to achieve the desired results.
I'm not a big fan of backblading.It's almost like apologizing for the work you just did.
Spoken like a true contract-rate operator!! A man after my own heart! A good operator never lets the dirt fall below the top of the blade, either, when pushing. When it does, you stop, back up, grab some more and push that into the half-pile you were previously pushing. There's nothing like watching an operator push a half-or-three-quarters-full blade, to make a true contractor weep.
Forgive my ignorance OzDozer, I don't understand this statement, although it sounds like a compliment to my long ago acquaintance Bruce.
Depends on the size of the dozer. The smallest that we have is a D9, mostly D11s. When you make a road/track in loose material with those there will be always pretty good track marks which are not good to drive on with a Toyota Landcruiser or other similiar light vehicle. OzDozer.... You know what most people think, when they see someone holding or using a tool backwards, don't you! LOL Yes ... a very clever and innovative person who can get the most use out of the tools they have to work with at the time... and probably not a rookie :drinkup
LMAO at Skadill! I agree 100% with you If the dirt is not moving your waisting time??? What can you move a yard back dragging if that. Most of the time you see someone backdrag its because they made a mistake
Im not talking about a dozer of that size, im talking about finish dozers, and even in a machine that size i dont think i would backdrag, probably alot to do with pride, i like ppl to see the cuts i have just made, or how slick i got it going the right direction. But thats just me
locomoconomo - The statement means that there's a sizeable difference in outlook between an operator/contractor on a contract rate, as compared to someone on a straight hourly rate. A guy on a straight hourly rate is only filling in hours, he doesn't care too much about efficiency. On the other hand, an operator/contractor on a contract rate, is looking for the most efficient and economic method of carrying out the work, in the fastest possible time. Contract operators/contractors are the most efficient people on the planet, and forever looking for ways to find a better way to do things. They don't waste anything, particularly fuel, machine time, or labor time.
Post deleted - double post.
Thanks for the clarification.
i think float might have been put on hydraulics for the old guys who ran cable machines for ever
Not sure you get what I meant. Maybe I am misunderstanding you. I know you always need some dirt in front of the blade to grade, but when you're fine grading, you can't just gouge! I took it like this was about fine grading, that is, the bulk dirt is moved, it's rough graded and you're finishing. You could probably measure it more in square yards that cubic yards, if that helps you understand.
yes he has to be talking aboul bulk pushing, if you were always pushing a full blade when finishing you would never get rid of the windrow
Yes, sorry, a little thread drift there, I started talking about efficiency in operation, instead of specifically back-blading. You've brought up a good point, though. Going forward with only a teensy amount of dirt in the blade, and trying to make a level cut, is the most difficult thing you can attempt. A blade that's got some dirt in front of it, stabilises the machine from dipping and bouncing. Thus the attraction of back-blading, you don't have to have dirt in front of the blade, to stabilise the dipping and bouncing.
I am not a operator anymore, moved over to the service side, but the company I work for does about 1/3 of their work back dragging. Most of their finish work on parking lots around corners involves pushing rock up to the curb and gutter and back dragging excess material back. Not talking mountains of material but enough to fill the work area in.
You are always talking about "pushing", "cutting". When you are fine grading you are cutting and filling, whatever is necessary to put it on grade. Have you ever fine graded something like a road, a building pad, a parking lot?
No, I've never driven a dozer in my life! I wouldn't even know what levers to pull! I spend all my spare time hanging off the Cat dealers fence, staring at the big Cats, wondering what it must be like, to be in control of all that HP and tonnes of steel!! :tong
The man probably has more years of seat time then you have in age! Lol I make sure to pay close attention to Oz, he knows what he's talking about, and is fussy and meticulous as all get out. I read tons of his posts on other forums as he's very willing to help and offer his advice on many earthmoving matters.
I Backdrag! I spend a lot of time building and repairing roads for timber dealers w/ a D4e and a D21a. These dealers simply buy the standing timber, and pay contract loggers to cut and haul it. They do not care one bit about the roads after the timber is out. Standard procedure is for the loggers cutter operator to cut the trees off at ground level where the road goes. The stumps are left in place. A lot of the stumps are actually 4-6" tall. Depending on the situation, I will be just moving around the existing dirt, spreading a pile of dirt, or spreading 3"- rock. If you are going forward when you hit the 24" pine stump 6" tall under the rock, it will pitch you out of the seat, but, backblading, the blade will usually ride over it. I'll take the extra wear on my blade and edges over the constant hard impacts on my machines and me.
So what happens when you hit the stump thats covered by an inch of loose gravel in a pickup going 20mph??? Push some dirt over the stump then put the rock down is what id do, rather have a bump in the road then a stump.
These stumps will be every few feet apart, if you try to go down these roads 20mph, you will have a wreck. These roads are from 100' to 5000' long and are done as cheaply as possible
Ozposser, this is the most honest post you have ever made. Bob ,
Ahh, Bluox! Glad to see you here - so you can pick holes in everything I write, and sh*t on me constantly! You must get thoroughly bored, when I don't post! To keep you completely happy, here's a pic of me, at a show a few years back, playing on this big ole Cat, and trying to figure out what that big lever sticking out of the floor, does! They told me to get off, when it looked like I could hurt myself! http://oi50.tinypic.com/x3z97m.jpg
32 posts and already causing drama? Stop it!
We have a road on our ranch that goes to cell sites. It has to be up to fire dept specs. It had not been maintained in a while so the fire dept wrote it up. The cellphone companies wanted to re engineer it. We decided to do the maintenance ourselves. We dont have a grader or a tractor with an angle blade. I have a D4 7U with an angle blade. It did a great job. It was 99% backblading. It is amazing how much control you can have in grading in variations between float and different degrees of downpressure. Finish backblading is a must with this old Cat because the grousers are really tall and leave a mess behind. By running them on the high spots they do a good job of scarifying.
ozdozer, The picture of the old 3t and the LeT scraper, Is that the lever that broke off in your hand. Kelly
Oooh, Kelly! I was hoping you'd forgotten about that incident! Don't tell Bluox I broke the gear lever off, will you! That will ensure that Bluox's opinion of me, will get get even lower! (if that's possible?) The guy who took the video of me boiling the dirt into the Model M Carryall, took it down! But he left up the video of that amateur Bill Rudicill, loading the Carryall UPHILL! :Banghead It must have been Bill that fractured the lever - and then left me to be the scapegoat for breaking it!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K8B6rsr_xY&list=UUmFMGxrIz8gWRxqjEgopwJw&index=27&feature=plcp
OzDozer, Here is old great grand pa at the woodland CA show in 2011 on old MikeMc Hi Out Put digging a hole. Kelly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI9yQo4SPyA
Kelly, that's a neat video! I can see you haven't lost your touch. I'll wager that ole D8 brings back a few memories? I didn't you backdragging in the vid? You obviously need more training to be a "proper" operator??
OzDozer, You mean like is, old Deas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=_AmDD4taFNI&NR=1 Kelly
it's all according to what your doing finishing on a golf course or in a front yard track marks are highly unwanted i did those kind of jobs but now i work at a coal prep- plant and the reject coal (aka gob) is wet and nasty a doxer wont stay up on it when it a sunny day sometime when it rains or snopws on you the filter will wash out of it and its like pushing 57 stone so we dont bother with back draging that stuff so it's all in what your doing i do it but only when i need to no since in sharping the cutting edge up lol
Cutting edges are on the front for a reason. The whole front of the blade is covered with hardened steel to protect the much softer steel on the back. You see what the dirt does to the cutting edge bolts, why would you be naive enough to think it's not also wearing down the back of the frog? Sure you probably won't notice it over a couple sets of edges but I guarantee if you make it a regular habit a welder will be coming out in that dozer's lifetime to do a whole bunch of welding on that frog to build it back up. Some light back dragging in certain situations cannot be avoided. Working in tight corners, pulling a windrow away from utilities etc and that wear is just the cost of doing business. Like U/C sometimes certain situations pay off burning a set or two out. Trying to cap ruts so deep you're dragging your belly pan is another one I forgive on. Not much else that can be done. We do mainly rough grading (get within 6" and get out) and everyone I hire new or train gets the same line. The cutting edge is on the front because that's which way you move dirt. When you start going the other way you can keep going all the way to your vehicle.
^^AMEN^^ Like i said if you cant run it in forward and do a decent job, get off and let someone that can.
This is one if those things "pros" say that makes them feel better about themselves. U leave your tracks after your done and it looks like poo. Finish dozers are made to finish ...... Leave smooth when done. It's also a good way to work up rough or clumpy dirt. My customers are happy. It's a tool like anything else. If your not using it to its ability... Then it is "you" that doesn't know how to run it properly. Merely my opinion.... wait for it.. Wait for it.....
LOL so what are you finishing that you cant leave tracks??? I've finished sub divison's, highways, parking lots, and train yards and everything i have finished i left tracks in, im not going to take the extra time to backdrag the tracks out of it. The customer can hire a guy to brush the tracks out with a rake if he is that picky. IDC what it is you are finishing, but why does it matter if you leave tracks??? You wont be able to see them if they pave it, and they wont be able to see it if they build a foundation over it, and they wont be able to see them after the grass grows, so there is really no point to back drag unless you cant make it look good goin forward
Ahh there it is we finish grade yards and waterways etc.. I'm Not to lazy to take the time to back blade when I'm Going backwards anyhow. I wouldn't want clear marks in my front yard, I might spill some beer while mowing...,
Finish grade yards??? With what??? Most yards around here are finished with a box blade once the house is built, or a skid loader? Dont need a dozer to do that. And its hard to see dozer tracks if there underwater
OK.... there is quiet a few mentions of a finish dozer. My question is, what is a finish dozer?. Most of the time I only have a D11 to finish my jobs, mostly working in support of a EX 3600. Sometimes I have to make a road for light vehicles so I will probably maybe backdrag. So if I only have a D11 to finish off with then for me that is a finish dozer. Can anyone enlighten me please. :beatsme
Eh... U use the tools u have to get the job done. I don't care if somebody doesn't like to backdrag. But don't get cocky and assume that because I do back drag that I don't know how to operate. Everybody has their own preferences.
Some of the posts have come over pretty arrogant, I would have to agree with you Illinoisboy.
We use small dozers like a D5G for finishing larger yards, otherwise we'll use a track skid loader. It just depends on what makes things go faster and the amount of dirt that has to be moved. I still don't see anything wrong with back dragging. When we have to "finish" things, it has to be within 1" typically. It all depends on the operator. Not everyone is the same. There are few guys who can honestly run forward and finish the grade within 1 inch quickly and efficiently. Back dragging helps a lot. I don't see a need to back drag if you are getting grade within 6 inches. Everyone just needs to calm down and stop being armchair operators. Not everyone is the same, and everyone has a different way of doing things faster and better. So now I'll sit back and wait for someone to tell me about how we've been doing it wrong since 1979
I shaped and topsoiled a massive berm once, lovely parallel track marks, no windrows, I was real proud. Then the site agent told me to get back up and take the tracks out. I wish I'd thought of your answer. Also IMHO, There's a world of difference between using back blading to cover for inability to hold grade and back blading to achieve a finish. Some "operators" couldn't take their track marks out and not leave windrows to save their lives.
actually alot of states are requiring you track the slopes up after you finish them so that the seed will get caught in the track marks if it rains instead of ending up silting down to the bottom of the slope
Rest my case your, "Honor"
cutting double ditch topsoiling double ditch Now idk how you guys do it but ill put it all in a little high when im putting it out there, then when the scrapers are trucks get done hauling ill go back and trim it all to make it look good going forward, get to the other end ill turn around and come back the other way. Now if i was to back drag all this do you know how much extra time that would take??? Plus there are so many other things that i need to be doing.
using this machine
I'll say.
farm track here is a track i cut out a few years ago ready for hardcore , 1962 D4c done by eye also with some back dragging and i am not a dozer op
Ooh, you back dragged....you'll never be a dozer op.
nothing in those pictures has been back dragged? looks good thou
:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy
I haven't bothered looking at all the posts,and wonder if anyones mentioned the real reason to refrain from back bladeing if possible. Its hard on sprocketts,but yes nessasary at times. Kind regards Motat
how come Motat?
this old man backdrags and is proud of it. that being said i will NEVER be an operator. i have a total of maybe 24 hrs on a dozer. i have been using a loader and or a backhoe since the late 70s but it was more of a playing thing with both helping a friend evenings and week ends. i had to make a living repairing autos and trucks. my point is some of us do the best we can with what experience we have or the equipment. i just dont understand all the bickering that goes on on all the web sites when a person gets the job done and done right. there probably isnt a construction company out there that would give me the time of day and i have no problem with it but i get what i need to do done. there i got it off my chest.
I know a lot of ppl do it, even had a few operators working for me that would backdrag everything they did, it made me mad but those 2 were the best dozer hands we had to work with so i dealt with it. But I've got the pleasure to work around some of the best dozer hands and I've never seen them backdrag anything they have ever finished and neither will I. If I spent all that time finishing it and get it to look good I'm not goin to hide my work by backdragin it. But that's how I was taught. The funny thing is when i run a highlift I always backdrag, but that's how i was taught to run a one
So what you were taught is gospel? One oldtimer says don't backdrag with a blade, another says backdrag with a loader. Good job one of those oldtimers didn't say operate at all times with your foot on the brake.
Hard on sprockets for same reason any backing up,especially under load is. The top of the chain is tensioned,and chain at bottom of sprocket bunches,therefore the chain tends to climb up on teeth. Also if you drag a large heap behind blade,it tends to flo into track chain ,carried along and packs in sprocket,thus putting it out of pitch and again wearing tips of teeth Also hard on idlers ,with top of chain pulling onto track spring,etc If you had the option,would you drive forward a long distance,or reverse,???? certainly know what I would do,and not just to save my neck. Any decent excavator operator will always walk a distance with sprocket at rear I run a high track now days,and have yet to work out the dynamics on these,especially as rear idlers are loaded up when pushing forward on these,(tho no springs at rear,and bunching tends to occur between sprocket and rear idler,tho I notice that even tho the spocket is up high,they still can (pack) As I said before tho ,sometimes one has to back blade,and certainly cannott avoid backing up under load. Kind regards Motat
Thanks Motat - it's always good to know how to look after a m/c properly especially when most of the gear I use is 3/4 worn just because of it's age (and probably some abuse). Off track - you were chasing some fiat info for a neighbours m/c a while back - did you get sorted? jimbob
Jeembawb Re the Fiat Neighbor has sold the Fiat,with its problems,thank goodness too. What a great memory you must have. Kind regards Motat
Motat good to see your still around, lost track of you since Joe's site went down. Have new email, change cs.com to gmail.com. Later Bob
Dear Bob Yes still around,but weak as knats pee. Whats happened to ACME site ???? Please send me an email so I can reply as cannott find yours. Kind regards Motat
this is not for argument please. need explanation. is back dragging and using the float position the same thing? my reason for asking is using a loader and a loader runs backwards loaded as much as it does forward. to me the loader is always in danger of more wear than a dozer that does back drag.
Dear Jughead Ist let me say ,I dont wish to be seen as a guru. The loader you speak of .Is this a tracked loader[traxcavator] Float. I personally seldom use float,as one needs to put down pressure on some places and feather at end of run.. If its a wheel loader then I have had little experiance of them. My theory about [float] is that its a carryover from the old rope blades, where you can drop blade quickly,and I can remember yrs ago operators condeming the new fangled hydaulic blade. Of course I could well be wrong and probably are. As I understand it,Float is the [carry] position,as haveing loaded the blade,you float the load along,something I have had no success with. The real Guru on Dozers is Ozdozer. Regards Motat
Float - I didn't know what it was until recently when I spent a bunch of hours in a D6D (was like xmas day everyday). When I realised what it was (my old Fiats aren't flash enough to have float I reckon) I found it quite good depending on the ground conditions. i.e. if it was too loose it would bite in too much, but most of the time when it worked it was time to reach for the water bottle & have a little break. Does someone know what it would entail to make my old Fiats float?? (no boat anchor jokes ) Just wondering what the hydraulic bits involved are? I guess its just like opening the tap between both sides of the ram?? Jimbob P.S. Motat - what part of the long white cloud are you from? Me Gissy originally
the loader i own is a d75s-3 it is a track machine. when i use the float on it the bucket is almost always flat on the ground it is a heavy sucker and knocks off the humps this old man leaves quite easily.
yes when im running a track loader ill put it in float, but i will always tilt the bucket forward just to allow the dirt to slide thru the teeth
I don't use the float mode, I just rest the blade and move the blade up and down, side to side as needed, its not going to wear the back of the blade at all
NO they are not the same thing....at least not in my opinion #1 back-dragging to me is using the bucket or blade while in reverse #2 "Float Position" is a setting on your Bucket or blade that allows it to float up or down with no hydraulic pressure on it in either direction you can use "Float Position" going both forwards or backwards but it in my opinion it works better while going backwards, and works well smoothing with buckets as mentioned by Vapor300 in his post I use the Float position with good success going both forwards and backwards with a bucket....and backwards only with a blade
I couldnt hit the ground with the blade if i tried. One thing I do know is that I will do what ever the customer wants and pays for. Its no secret that kissing the customers rear and back dragging is a sure way to stay working. Besides, back dragging is the quickest way to cover up the phone lines I just yanked up out of the ground. I could go on and on with this.... but I know better than to argue with a prima donna.
and i know better then to argue with a truck driver
Just because I drive a truck does not make me a truck driver.... http://youtu.be/hSowc53hERA
LOL i know i seen the IUOE i was just giving you hard time.
heh heh, I thought that guy was going to backdrag with his tranny
LOL, classic vid. I couldn't understand a word, but I know what he was sayin'... :lmao OCR
The main reason that running any sprocket/chain driven dozer in reverse is not good is that the rails on all dozers are of the offset link type as opposed to box and strap type chain. The wide end of the chain is always toward the forward. This allows the bushing of the chain to lay in the sprocket as it travels around the sprocket and all movement or rotation of the chain in relation to the sprocket takes place between the pin and inside of the bushing. This eliminates the bushing rotating against the sprocket tooth which is what is happening when traveling in reverse.That is why there is more wear on sprockets and chains when traveling in reverse. This is from millright experience in a paper mill. You always run offset link chain with the wide end leading to minimize wear on the sprocket and outside of the chain. Just thought I would inject that little piece of information.
Killing Two birds with one Stone This one definetly creates a unique solution for this topic,although appears to need a second operator! Friend took this last year.
Yair . . . Interesting. Anyone hazard a guess as to what its for? . . . is that maybe a rice paddy? Cheers.
I've never seen anything even faintly resembling that rear blade - and I'll wager it's a nightmare to control, hanging that far out the back of the tractor, and with the lift rams mounted almost near the pivot points!
I saw one of these I believe in the Netherlands used them for cleaning ditches if I remember right. Had completely forgot about even seeing it till the picture.
For me this is another deja vu moment with one of life's mysteries solved. I remember 40 years ago when one of my coworkers sarcastically told a mine owner that, if he would mount blades on the front and rear of our D9Gs, they could move more material. The company would just need to hire some qualified operators. The owner, who obviously had an appreciation for sarcasm, replied that he had plenty of "two-faced" operators already. LOL
Ouch you know what they say. There is a little bit of truth in sarcasm lol
lol my father bought a case 450b some years ago he didn't realize the tracks were installed backwards till he got it home when he called the guy to ask him about it he said he only dozes backwards it wasn't to long before it got a new bottom
Yair . . . That set up and it's application has me intregued. As one poster mentioned it could well be for cleaning ditches. That is to say the machine backs up to ditch and rear operator reaches out with devise and using lift and crowd he drags blade through ditch and then the dozer moves forward leaving the mud in a neat pile . . . repeat leaving a windrow along the edge of ditch . . . or maybe they run it out across the paddock. Can't see why they need the second operator . . . one thing is for sure if that is how it works it wouldn't be too hard on the finals. Cheers.
Yes I back drag. What ever it takes to get an area done and move on to the next area.
As previously explained, running the track chains under load in reverse is bad for the chains and all the u/c components. But then again if it's not your tractor I suppose most operators wouldn't give a rat's *** about that. All depends on circumstances. In mining it's all about moving large amounts of dirt from A to B in the shortest possible time. IMHO the only reason to backdrag would be that the operator in question didn't have the required "touch" to get it right going forward. Any operater caught backdragging would be shown the door in quick style.
It obviously depends on the application. I would expect to be shown the door were I back draging with a D11. Occasionally if I have gouged a bit while laying out material in a fill from haul trucks I will grab a bit on the way back to help fill the low spot, and working around structures, or pond edges, it is necessary to remove material that one can't get behind, but in general, unless tracks cannot be left, I do not back drag as a practice. As someone earlier in the thread mentioned, I do not like the inconsistency of compaction created by back draging, and the tracks can add aesthetics if following contours in large scale landscapes to enhance the shape.
Hi Nige, I am one that cares about the owner's tractors and if they make money or not. As someone else mentioned, if you need to get an inside building corner or area to grade and there is no other tractor around, you may need to back drag the material out. Or say your building a pad with scrapers dumping chunky clay, you need to work the dirt a bit to get it smooth enough for the compacter operator does not bounce out of the seat. The expense of the wear on tracks back dragging can be less of the expense of trucks, scrapers, labors and others waiting for you to do all your work in forward gears. Time is money and if back dragging saves time with what your doing I think most owners are ok with that. I learned with old wore out tractors 40 years ago and if you did not take some care in running the old stuff it would surely fall apart one you.
Yair . . . it all becomes academic B/S . . . one rule doesn't fit all situations. I would not expect to be shown the door if I was caught back blading with anything . . . it depends on where you are and what you are doing. Without pi$$ing off the cocky with a two foot deep channel none of the hi-track hotshots on here could cut a two pass fuel tanker track through Gilgai brigalow country without dragging the odd bit back into the low spots to get a full load on the blade . . . or how about from standing mulga to a 260 Cessna pulled at the camp in two hours forty minutes with two D9's, try that without backblading . . . when you can't see a bloody thing for dust. I have always considered that freakin'n thing hanging off the front as a tool to be used in the most effective manner for the job at hand and stuff convention and any smart-ass that tells me otherwise Rant over, cheers to all. ** I should explain that Gilgai country is usually heavy black clay and resembles the surface of the roughest confused ocean you are ever going to see, crest to trough can be eight or ten feet and the pitch is variable, just a few feet between holes. Mulga dust apparently is unique. Farr-Pamic air cleaners were fitted to the first P/S Allis twenty ones. They had a huge surface area and were supposed to be a throw away item changed at each service . . . The Big Brass flew over from the States because they flat out wouldn't believe us that they wouldn't last a day.
With you there, Scrub. In my over 35 years around plant, in my experience it's fitters rather than owners who have the most mouth about things like back blading. I say this as one who sits firmly in the middle of the fence 50% operator 50% mechanic. There isn't a fitter of note who wouldn't in their most honest moment admit to using a screwdriver as a chisel, or a slightly oversize spanner, or a set of pipe grips on the hex union...you see where I'm going? You point out to a fitter that they aren't doing it properly and see where the conversation goes. I know because that's my mindset when I'm on the tools. However, If it makes all of you full time spanner & laptop jockeys happy, I will have a serious word with myself next time I catch myself back blading.
Worthwhile pointing out at this stage that using a screwdriver as a chisel might require the premature replacement of said screwdriver. Incorrect operation of a machine will also require parts replacement, just that the parts could likely cost 1000 or more times what the screwdriver cost.
Now let's not start taking this too seriously. Besides, the fuss one of my mates makes when you borrow his screwdriver, you'd think it cost as much as a D11.
As it used to say on my tool box ....... "The man who lends tools is on his holidays" And BTW......... you started it ...... :tong :tong
Had a couple of sleepless nights. New Cocker Spaniel puppy... My mate and me have an arrangement with our tools - what's mine are ours and what are his are his. He's got magnetic finger syndrome; when he walks past my box, my tools stick to them.
This is going off topic, but I'll add that I've had good results with painting my tools some really putrid color. They're easy to identify and nobody really wants them anyway. Good choices for color would have "puke", "snot" or "baby" in the name.
couldn't agree more. I am an owner operator,if your only criteria for judging whether an operator is good or not is backdragging your OUTTA YOUR MIND!! dozerman nailed it , time is money.Sand is also hard on undercarraige, you gonna turn down job because of that? No! had a owner tell me not to run his D8 sideways on slope ever, meanwhile pads below are being held up and streets also while gradechecker, blade and others are waiting for you to finish a slope? news flash dirt moves down hill much faster. Lost production outweighs cost of undercarriage always. If your mechanic doesn't like fighting the threads on cutting edges then tell the dumb ass to shorten the bolt so that they dont stick out past the nut, whalla no bured up threads to fight. I do whatever it takes to get the job done as fast as possible so that the owner makes money and keeps getting jobs then I keep making money and getting jobs also. Bottom line is that its not a simple equation at all. just my 0.02
You people need therapy . Over 200 posts on who drags ?