Hi all, been a lurker hear for some time but don't post much. I'm looking for some advice (preferably legal) regarding damage that occurred to a skidsteer I bought from a dealer in CA and had shipped to SD. It shipped on an open flatbed and arrived with problems. It ran ok but kept throwing various errors after 30-45 minutes of operation. Tried changing fluids, filters, etc and it seemed to do the trick for a bit but then began having errors again and suddenly really dropped power. Local bobcat mechanic pulled error codes and found they all started right at the hours that I purchased it and did not occur previous to then except a couple issues some 250 hours back. (machine is a 2007 t190 with 1900 hrs by the way). Turbo was shot and he said it looked like it spun dry for a long time and, based on the error codes at the hours given, it looks like it spun during transit. The bad turbo was replaced and then oil started coming out of the exhaust showing that the engine has been damaged from the bad turbo and overheating that occurred. $9000 in repairs is what I face. Trucking company claims dept says the liability for protecting the turbo falls on the shipper or recipient and not the trucking company. "As they were not informed to tarp the load, they are not liable"... This same trucking company has covered turbos on other skidsteers for me before without me having to tell them so why now? Doesn't their doing it before without notice give me reason to believe that it is standard practice for their drivers to know if this needs done or not? Any advice or similar experience with this issue is appreciated. thanks! AP
Are you sure the oil coming out of the exhaust is not just turbo lube oil ?
Just going by what bobcat mechanic says. he thinks continual overheating has caused internal damage.
good luck with this but i believe you are SOL if it did not have some kind of warranty
The person that was there when the freight was delivered should have noted on the freight bill that the exhaust was not covered and have the driver sign at the note. It's likely you will have to take someone to court to settle this, and that document would have at least gave you some leverage to hold someone responsible. Sorry to hear such bad news.
For 9k what was done to the engine besides the turbo? Exactly what did the turbo damage, did it shell out the impeller and ruin the valves, cause it to drop a valve and how many hours have been put on it since you've gotten it delivered to you and the engine work was done?
If the repairs haven't been done yet, I believe I'd want a second opinion, or more details. Just a bad turbo and oil coming out the exhaust after a turbo change doesn't sound like $9000 necessarily, to me. I am NOT opening that can of worms, but, if he says he can look at a turbo and tell it was damaged in transit, I'd want to see it, at least.
I would say it would be the shipper's responsibility to cover exhaust. Truck drivers can not be depended upon to do anything but drive the truck.
Will the turbo even spin during transport?
Well, the seller/shipper is going to say that everything worked fine when it left their place. And they've got evidence of that since the error codes started when you took delivery. The trucking company is going to say that they only drive, no one said it had to be tarped, exhaust covered, etc. Sounds like you are going to be stuck paying, unfortunately. Is this something that your insurance would cover for you? Then let them find a stone to squeeze the money out of... Andrew
There is a related thread on HEF entitled "COVERING EXHAUST DURING TRANSIT". We always cover the exhaust when hauling equipment, but I have never been convinced it was necessary. I guess now I know for sure! Sorry for your misfortune arbor pro.
I will second the question. Will the turbo spin in transport????
How do you know that the machine was not somebody's problem child to begin with and that is why they sold it off?
If it was the the sellers problem child what would have kept them from erasing all codes rite before they shipped it out? Don't feel to bad arbor pro we bought a front wheel assist tractor and I took it out to do some work with it and the front wheel assist didn't work $20,000 later it works?
As I suppose I expected, the shipping company denied liability. said it was my responsibility to note on bill of lading if 'special requirements or conditions' are necessary - in this case, covering the exhaust or facing it forward or both. Even though every other truck driver I've ever spoken to in the last 3 years has known this needs to be done, this newbie driver apparently did not so the burden falls on me as far as he's concerned. What really stinks is that I've become friends with dispatcher/sales guy for this company and now I have to take my business elsewhere because of how indifferently his boss treated me in this matter. It'll hurt his employee in the long run as I believe he works at least partially off of commission. As for the damaged turbo, I will see if I can post pics Monday. $2500 labor and parts to replace turbo. $5500 to pull old engine and replace with remanufactured one. Misc parts and tax adds up to $8k plus for this mess.
Arbor pro, I'm with Randy and Mitch you said you ran it 30-45 minutes changed the oil than ran it more before in stalling a new turbo. If the seals were out of the old turbo it could push oil in to the exhaust side, and that oil can take a long time to clear up even after you install a new turbo. I have seen trucks take hours to quit smoking and drooling out and down there stacks. You did not say how long or how hard you ran it after the new turbo was installed. We've had a lot of turbos go bad some from transit but we've never had one damage a engine unless the turbo scattered and the engine swallowed something or turbo puked all the engine oil out and blew it up. You did not say how long you ran it after the new turbo was installed nor did you say how it ran after the new turbo. Of course were not there but I think I would run it and see if it clears up . I remember Dad had a 955 cat loader turbo seize up while it was on the lowboy in transit and it locked up solid. When he started it up and unloaded it he was sure it was blown up reluctantly he changed the turbo and it was fine
Did you actually go run this machine before purchasing it or watch a video or just take a sellers word for the condition of the machine when you bought it?
It sounds like you have nothing more to lose by running it to see if it will quit smoking. Keep checking the oil level often if you do. Listen closely for any bad sounds. If the oil level doesn't fall you should be ok. There is also a chance the replacement turbo has a seal problem. Although the exhaust is smoking a compression check may indicate if there really is a problem with the engine itself. Keep in mind combustion chambers loaded with oil from a turbo will not allow an accurate compression check.
The engine has power loss. Mechanic says it definitely needs replaced.
Hmmm ???? ….this whole story the mechanic has given sounds REALLY FISHY ! …… You buy a T-190 w/~1600 hrs on it, then you are told the turbo was hooped due to transport ??? …. as said before and has been an ongoing thread here on HEF, right or wrong, the argument over turbos gone bad from dry spin during transport is purely a myth IMO …… If it was me I'd be leaning to an original issue with the engine not supplying sufficient oil to the turbo, and I'd say it was purely coincidence that the hr meter showed it to be about the same time as it was transported ……. To Each His Own ! … over the issue of covering exhaust during shipping … I've been hauling equipment of various configurations for over 30yrs ….. the only time you'll see me cover the exhaust is if the machines exhaust pipe opening is facing directly into the wind, but not to prevent the turbo from spinning but more for the fact of having foreign debris entering into it (like rain water or sandy dust ect.) I really feel for the issues you have got going on, but for a CSI type mechanic to say it happened during transport sounds like a typical CYA (blame it on someone else) ….. have the engine checked independently before tear-down …. as posted before turbo failure to destroy the engine ??? … HMMM ?? …. unless it grenaded into the intake of the engine its highly unlikely it did !!! JMHO ……. keep us in the loop … Good-luck …. cheers
It should have a power loss if the upper cylinders are loaded with oil and possibly continue to be. If it were mine that engine wouldn't be coming out yet. Craft is right on: The diagnosis sounds real fishy. TOOO many things need to be diagnosed. As i said before there is a chance the replacement turbo is defective. I have seen it happen two different times on two different dozers. You didn't mention if you took Randy88, Mitch and Chum Duffy's advice and run it to see if it quits smoking. Is the mechanic that wants to replace the engine going to guarantee that it will fix ALL the problems ??? I am guessing he won't. Run that by him and see if he can look you in the eye and say yes at the same time. It would be a sad situation if a rebuilt engine goes in and the smoke and error codes are still there.
Not a myth. Not common, but it can happen after a particularly long haul. A turbo doesn't need to spin many times on a dry bearing before the bearing and labyrinth seals are damaged. You wouldn't necessarily see it as a haulier, the turbo would most probably fail while the machine was being worked hard later. Put it this way, if I was having a machine moved more than 20 - 30 miles, the exhaust would be covered or I'd change hauliers. Also some types of turbo failure can wreck an engine, such as seal failure allowing the engine to burn enough of it's own oil to let the bottom end go dry. The turbo doesn't need to fly apart to wreck an engine.
1) You never saw the machine running 2) T190s are usually beaters 3) It is not the driver's responsibility for what he is not told 4) $9000 for a new engine is impressive
Don't take this the wrong way but when you get down to it, everyone in this transaction shares some responsibility but ultimately it is yours. 1. The seller could have covered the exhaust or made sure the driver did so, after loading and before the transport departed. 2. The transport driver could have covered the exhaust after he loaded the machine. 3. You as the purchaser could/should have made your wishes clear to the seller and the transporter before the shipment took place. still learn'n has a good point, a dishonest seller could have tampered with the computer to put the blame on someone else for a bad turbo/engine. Personally I find it unlikely that the turbo would spin this way, but I have heard the stories from expert diesel mechanics and just because it hasn't happened to me yet doesn't mean it couldn't and under the principle of better safe than sorry, I make sure everyone involved knows my requirements before I get any of my equipment moved by someone else. Once the damage is done, unless the seller or transporter disregarded your instructions to cover the exhaust then I think it becomes your problem. For the few minutes that covering the exhaust takes and until the Discovery Channel Mythbusters take on this question and settles it once and for all, I will cover the exhaust and be assured damage will not occur.
Mythbusters, that is good:notworthy guess trucks don't spin or wrecker drivers are just lucky
Just goes to show that there is a lot to be said for buying from a local reputable dealer where you can go and touch, feel and try the machine before you buy it. It have heard tons and tons of stories about people who have bought sight unseen hundreds and thousands of miles from home and wondered why they got screwed over.
Look guys think what you want but we have had to many turbo failures with in minutes of unloading off the lowboy over the past 40 + years to wonder. We move our own equipment, for years we have had 2 to 3 lowboys on the road every day moving our equipment hundreds of times a year. Our drivers are required to cover the exhaust stack . Occasionally they are not covered they get forgotten or the cover blows off some of the time we get away with it however not always. The phone will usually ring just as the lowboy is back on the road just out of site. It has happened far to many times to be a myth it has proven out to be a expensive fact!
its crazy but on the other extreme im to young but my father and i were talking about it and he has never once covered a stack on a piece of machinery and never had a problem. i would like to try and do a test since my hobbies are usually me tinkering around. i think im going to buy a turbo and test it to see what it would take for it seize.
I just found a website that invites suggestions for mythbuster topics and suggested this one. If a few others suggest it to them also, maybe it will be tested one day............
Arbor Pro; Did you see your bobcat hauled in? Was the exhaust facing in to the wind? Why would you replace your engine with out seeing if yours could be repaired for much less money?
arbor pro, I'm with all those who smell something fishy here. Mostly because the fault codes only start from the time you got it (= deleted before it was sent), and your mechanic's inclusion of overheating as part of his diagnosis. Ask him how a supposed failed turbo (for any reason) overheats an engine. I'd like to know. As to the turbo spinning in transit, my mate "Plant Fitter" from just up the road has provided a link to an excellent past discussion on the subject and is well worth reading. Someone posted there that he put a leaf blower into the exhaust of a Cummins ISX and the turbo spun. Of course you have to have two pistons at TDC so both the exhaust and inlet valves are open at the same time on one cylinder. So it wont happen every time and it is unusual for an engine to come to rest in exactly that position because the other of the two cylinders will be at TDC on compression. I know it could be embarrassing, but it would be good if you answered the questions about your inspection etc of the machine before you bought it.
Sorry "Plant Fitter". Got you mixed up with "scrub puller" who IS just up the road in Gladstone. You are just "somewhere" in our political wilderness. Cheers. M.
No worries mate, I'm DOWN the road quite a bit from where you are.
I used to run heavy duty wrecker, (early 80's) and after the boss ended up paying for a turbo on a truck that I hauled into the dealer, I was instructed to cover the exhaust from then on. It is cheap insurance.
Dry spun turbo!!!!! arbor pro, Please up date us with your final decision on your Bobcat engine, and what help if any you were able to get from the trucking firm?
You need air flow for the turbo to spin..............If you block or cap an exhaust the engine stops as exhaust cannot get out and turbo stops spinning. If you hold a pin wheel out a car window while driving it spins, put a small hole in a 5 gallon pail side with pin wheel stick through it and bucket opening toward airflow you will see the pinwheel not spin but kind of waffle or wiggle back and forth from pressure in the bucket but since air is not flowing past it , its not spinning. As air enters the exhaust it pressurizes parts of the system but really cannot finds a good path to Flow through the engine all the way out the air intake to spin the turbo. Think of the engine running and all the air sucking in and pushing out to spin the turbo, well the wind from transporting has to go in the reverse direction with significant flow to spin the turbo. I do realize that debris and water can get in there which is not good but the turbo will not spin any significant amount to damage it.
Very interesting. Did you know that engines have these little items called "valves" which can under some circumstances allow gas flow through an engine when it stops in certain positions? Well, whether you do or not, in a previous life I used to strip and examine returned, failed, engines for a major engine manufacturer and damage caused to turbos by spinning dry during transport is a known and documented occurrence. So for me it's a non-argument.
HMMMM ????? Well !!! …… I Did Not Know This !!! ….. I Guess that's why after 19 yrs of towing my 312 Cat Excavator, 10 yrs of towing the old 8875 JD skid-steer, 7yrs of towing the newer A-300 Bcat …. and too many other pieces of my OWN equipment to mention over the last 30 yrs …. (plus other equipment owned by others) …. at a High rate of Fuel Consumption down the by-ways and high-ways backwards down the rds. why I've never had to EVER clean an Air-Filter either …… (other than covering the exhaust on bad weather days or following down a real dusty rd.) ….. Hmmmm ??? …… I guess by all "documented occurrences" the air flowing threw the turbos and the engine out the air-filter backwards keeps them eternally Clean that I've never had to clean them personally !!! …….. Give your head a shake !!! ….. another Myth in my books …… I've dealt with fuel injection and Turbo Re-builders over many years and this topic has come up many times ….. NONE have ever said that it was 100% proven that a turbo failed because of transport ….. but to each his own I guess ….. This is turning into another topic like the ISO vs SAE controls in excavators ! …………….. JMHO and another $.02 worth ….. Cheers !
ok i understand what you are saying but for the valves to allow air to flow past wouldn't both the intake and exhaust have to be open at the same time. and craft i agree i dont think i have ever covered an exhaust not once and neither has my father and we have never had a turbo failure due to dry spinning
Someone correct me if I get this wrong but in a 4 stroke diesel, the four strokes are intake, compression, power and exhaust which then repeats. So at the end of the exhaust stroke with the piston coming up to tdc and the intake stroke where the piston has just left tdc and is on its way down, the cam has both valves in that cylinder partially open at the same time which is called overlap. In a theoretical engine there is no overlap but in a practical engine the overlap helps draw in more air and to scavenge the remains of the exhaust more completely. If a piston stops at tdc at the start of intake stroke then because of valve overlap, the intake and exhaust are connected allowing a slight flow of air which could cause the turbo to spin unlubricated if the engine is not running. Unlikely as this situation is, it seems possible to occur, so now for short hauls I just leave the engine on the machine running and for long hauls I make sure the exhaust gets taped up if the engine has a turbo.
You are correct Norite and in fact this situation is very likely to occur because the running mate to the "valve overlap" cylinder is coming up on TDC compression and this is where forces are the highest and engines are most likely to stop with one cylinder at TDC compression. For me it's not whether we have valve overlap going on cause it is very likely to happen. The thing I struggle with is air going down the muffler through the baffles, through the turbo ( causing it to spin ?) down a manifold through a cylinder, out the intake, aftercooler, back through the turbo, air cleaner, precleaner and out - All while having enough volume and force to spin the turbo.........
Double post
i know about valve over lap but its very minimal when i say open i mean open. i was bored and about to eat something i emailed garret turbo chargers and holset turbo charger to see if they ever had a a case of a dry spun turbo from transport lets see if they respond and i might be wrong but to my understanding diesel cams usually have a wider lobe separations than a typical cam for a Gasser making a valve over lap very minimal either way id like to see real proof that this really occurs another thing doesn't bobcat have there exhaust on the rear i rarely ever back up a skid on a trailer so was it loaded forward or reverse?
That was a good idea, please post what they send back to you. Maybe if they don't respond, a bunch of us ought to email them and see if they take notice then. The only thing I've seen from a manufacturer on this was from Cat, written in 1987. It said covering the exhaust in transit was to prevent damage from debris and rain.
Exactly my point ! ……….. even tho valve lap exists, the amount of air flow would be so minimal that even in a perfect case scenario the turbo, if it were to spin, would be so slow that to incur a bearing failure it would have to be spinning so fast to generate heat to fry the bearing surfaces or cook the residual oil left there in the case bearings ….. its endless the things that could be dreamed up as to "what if" (which is why I guess my air-filters are never dirty ….LOL) ……. lets see if the turbo guys get back and maybe have some REAL documented cases …. hmmmm !
Well, Craft, I did say earlier that it was a problem during prolonged transport, when the oil has had time to drain, and you don't need to fry a turbo to damage it. But then, if your turbos are okay, I'm happy.
craft, *** you wouldn't believe Garret and Holset if they did agree that you can have a dry spun turbo. IH100 tells us that in a former job he had the opportunity to inspect wind spun turbos. I have stated in this thread that we have also lost turbos due to being dry spun, but you obviously have chosen to disbelieve that. I believe I also mentioned that we have moved thousands of pieces of equipment over the years and we have been moving equipment with turbochargers since turbochargers first became popular in the late fifties. But what would we know.... BTW I read your thread and it seems to me that your excavator would be your only load that would have the exhaust directly facing the wind. Mind you it has also been said in this thread that this occurrence does not necessarily happen often. IH100 stated that luck was on your side, however I am more of a believer that ignorance is bliss! I have been around this industry for 40+ years and I hope the day does not come that I think I can't learn anymore. Regards!!! Chum.
what surprises me is why haven't the oem designed a flap or something on the exhaust if it is such a problem?
Yeah, it would be easy to hang a flap in any run of horizontal pipe, wouldn't it? Maybe you guys ought to do that, then you wouldn't have to worry about it.
im thinking the air would push and keep it closed while your driving
At one time, a lot of equipment did have such a flap. I suspect the manufacturers have saved a few pounds/dollars by eliminating it.
Yeah, yeah, you can talk the talk, but now walk the walk. Where's the pictures? Documentation? Anything? Just because someone says it happens doesn't mean jack, proof is what's needed here. Until that point, it's just a urban legend, something concocted by a dealer or mechanic years ago so they wouldn't have to pay, or admit they didn't know why something failed. And, ok so IH100 says it happens on prolonged trips. How in the world would he know that, he lives in a country where a long trip is what 2 hours?
Have walk the walk 95z hello, With what you said you would have to be an Atheist. With that line of thinking you cant have faith in your fellow man or God or anything! Why would I lie. I am the one that has to pay the Bill when a turbo fails, And no so called ( by you ) concocting dealerships lying mechanics are changing them for us, we do our own in house . I have clearly stated the number of opportunities that we are subjecting our selves to have a failure occur. I think most people will agree that certainly qualifies us to (as you say) walk the walk!!! BTW what have you done in your career that qualifies you to challenge IH100, Myself and others who have posted on this thread? On this subject show me that you can at least crawl!
what about a heavy wind? do you cover the stack during 60 mph winds?
You are a funny man, aren't you. Google Eurotunnel, Europe, or failing that have a look at a map that covers more than your county line. Be careful, though, some of those pages can be sharp. Also, I don't have a particular axe to grind for or against dealers, the work I was involved in was root cause investigation to avoid future occurrence, not blame avoidance. Whatever, I didn't intend to get involved in a urinating match, I did post with good intentions on this occasion. But I'll bow to superior knowledge and bow out of this one with my turbo covered.
Holy Smokes Gentlemen, we're not talking about global warming, just covering exhaust! As said before, I have had my doubts about whether or not this can happen, but when I see the Cat transports from our local dealership cover exhausts I figure there must be a reason, and it only takes a minute. I use a Delo gallon oil jug with the spout cut off (leaving the handle portion intack) and a bungee cord to attach. I use duct tape for small exhaust. And YES, it MUST be Delo, Rotella oil jugs cause other problems (I am trying to interject a bit of humor here gents). If you look closely you can see the oil jug! (Delo) We used to have a D7G with the flap on the end of the exhaust that could be pinned close. Don't see many of those these days.
Who's Liable for damage during shipping ? If the haul truck was in an accident causing damage to the piece of equipment being shipped or the machine fell off the trailer due to poor chaining then I would say the trucking company is liable but that is as far as I would go with it. In my opinion It's the owners responsibility for rest of it particularly when buying equipment sight/unseen a long ways from home. As for the turbo windmilling during transport I have never experienced it yet hauling equipment or towing trucks & dont bother covering the stacks. Not saying it cant happen as other members have stated & experienced in the past. Aerodynamics can act in strange ways, One thing I wont do is rear tow a tractor that has the large fiberglass fairring on top of the cab like this truck www.auctiontime.com/onlineauctions/details.aspx?ohid=4592385&lp=trk&bcatid=27&rc=2 I Was always conserned about the wind ripping the fairring off the truck in a rear tow. Also make damb sure the tilt hood is secured down good,sometimes the hood latches are a little shakey and I will put a nylon ratchet strap over the hood as a safety.
towing trucks the fairings are very vulnerable. also the areo mirrors can and do pop off during transport when being rear towed. The Volvo's were the worst about it but i have seen it happen to several different brands of trucks,
funny you guys mention rear tow my fathers friend has an original boss 302 mustang when he bought it out of California he had it brought down here to Miami. He requested it be shipped in an enclosed trailer and they brought it an open hauler on the top of a car hauler. the louvers on the rear where catching wind and some where along the way it was ripped off by the wind and it dented the roof and chipped some of the original paint on the roof and cracked a windshield on the car behind it. the shipping company was liable for that one his money was refunded and they had to cover the damage on the car. i was there when the car was received with him and my father, his face was not one of excitement when he saw what had happen. i got to ask my him if has some pictures of when he received the car
Agree Dualie. Hate that happend to your buddys Boss 302 monster76. The aerodynamic fiarrings,wings,& spoilers generally just work in one direction & can have the opposite effect in reverse.:Banghead