Ok guys firstly i want to just start off by saying i dont want this to be a everything china makes is crap thread. what iam looking for is real world experiances and peoples genuine ideas on why they are cheaper i will give an example . a local chinese manufacture i know is selling there 15ton excavator for 62,500USD brand new but from what i can see all the running gear is the same as kobelco , Hitachi and doosan when it comes to the pumps , engines and drives. so what iam trying to work out if all the major parts are non chinese made and imported why are the japanese machines still so expensive is it just the Jap's and other contrys company's trying to make massive profits? anyways but as i said before lets keep this civil.
The japanese currency is very strong right now.t this makes any product out of japan more expensive.
The Chinese also commonly use a 'price dumping' tactic. In that they under price their goods to kill everyone else on the market. It is an effective tactic that has killed many other companies. You can learn more about dumping at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy) & http://www.wikinvest.com/concept/U.S.-China_Anti-Dumping_Laws
mate basicly all i ment was the machinery side of it not the politics of it all
I think its that they use cheaper materials and no offense to anyone but they also steal designs
haha yeah they do but i guess the same could be said for CAT , Hitachi or any one could say they all stole the true excavator design from Kato. but i know what you mean. i just cant work out the price differance as its not even though they are using chinese chains or anything a few of the mobs i know use Nipon chains from Korea.
I had some new russian multiytre rollers some years back, name brand engine, gearbox diff, First thing we did get all the wheel cylinders sleeved as they were rusty and complete rewire of electric as they just did not work. For an excavator, how good is the steel in the boom etc, what are the rams like, pins and bushes, bucket quality, heater, A/C etc etc. technical back up, spares supply, warranty?
You have to differentiate which Chinese excavators you are talking about. Cat makes excavators in China and some are coming to the states. I guarantee you there is no price difference between them. If you are talking Chinese made clones of accepted machines, then they will have to prove their worth over time. As far as the emerging manufacturer's machines go, low pricing is to buy into the the market, not run everyone else out. The Japanese machines low priced their way into the United States in the eighties in two ways. They started the dealer networks here for one and they allowed a gray market to develop. The Japanese government limited the service life of machines in Japan which meant the used machines had to be shipped out of the country. The rest of the world was happy to absorb those low hour high quality used machines. Now that the Japanese have gained acceptance with the high quality they build to, the demand and the prices have risen. Since China has the huge monetary surplus, and a demand for equipment at home, it doesn't appear that any gray market will develop the way it did for Japan. With the advent of air pollution laws in effect now and in the future, I doubt Chinese manufacturers will want to jump through the ringer that is the EPA in the United States.
All I will say is the chinese kool aide drinker is at in in this thread too. As for how good the steel in the boom is Bala, it depends on the mill it comes out of. Steel mills in some countries produce far superior steel then mills in other countries. There are several reasons for this. Main reason is that if you don't make high quality here in the states and the competition does you will be out of business. If nobody makes high quality then you have nothing to worry about if you produce low quality. Same is true of all products. One of the big reason we get junk consumer products here is called Walmart. As for commercial items, it is starting to swing the other way.
hey greg what dose Bala mean? in regards to the boom? Also greg mate i wish you keep your coments relevent to the thred and dont start the kool aide talk again mate as i said before iam not trying to push these machines or anything just asking a serious question . well greg i find it hard to belive you have spent much time in this contry. if i was you i would be poniting out why chinese are more happy buying used jap machinery then new chinese? but as i said lets keep this factual and not a slag fest.
Yes I agree. There have been many threads about Chinese quality and many threads that just went downhill with immature comments. SO - Let's keep this thread about facts and not the usual "Chinese crap comments". If you have facts and/or personal experience about a certain machine, it's quality or lack there of, then by all means feel free to comment. If you just want to beat the "Chinese Junk" drum then keep it to yourself, that record is getting old.:cool2 Is that CLEAR?
Thanks CM1995
There's no way to answer your question if you don't want to talk about the politics behind the manipulated value of the yaun and the other political issues involved. The cost of labor is a fraction of what it costs in western countries. Also, it much less expensive to reverse engineer, copy and reproduce than it is to fund the research and developement that is behind the product that was copied. If you want a first hand account of why the prices are lower, you can read it here: http://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production/dp/0470405589 .
How much does a factory worker make in the USA or Japan? How much does a factory worker make in China? There ya go.
The Chinese must figure they have some competitive products under the SANY name to build a new manufacturing plant in Georgia http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/...completes-first-us-branch-in-ga.html?page=all while CAT builds a new plant in Athens, GA and one in Victoria, TX: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/17/caterpillar-idUSL2E8DH6PN20120217 http://blog.chron.com/houstonshiring/2010/08/new-caterpillar-facility-in-victoria-to-employ-500/ All three plants will be focused on building excavators. This is going to get very interesting in short order. How low can they go?
In the article, they use the term "assembly facility". My guess is that this will allow them to stamp "made in USA" on the machines while shipping largely preassembled/modularised components from their manufacturing facilities in China.
the reason for the chinese machines being so cheap is they want the market, they are new to the market globally ,they make good machinery and they want to get their machines out there cheap to build a name for themselves, cat are so dear because they think they are worth it and convince anybody stupid enough to listen that they are worth it, if it digs a hole is easy on fuel cheap to buy and starts when you expect it to then ill buy chinese machines all day long!
Write this down- I actually agree with you CJ, except for the good machinery part, they haven't proved that to me yet. I think it has to do with cheap wages (although they are rising in China), what CJ said above and we also have to consider that Chinese do practice price dumping to help build a market for themselves. Get the product out there cheaper than everyone else. However this can also be a double edged sword if the product is crappy. Anyone remember GM diesels in the late 70's- early 80's? They tried to get a fuel pinching engine in the market when the gas prices were high but did a really crappy job of it. I know guys that almost 20 years later wouldn't buy a 7.3 Powerstroke when they came out because of the burnt aftertaste they still had from owning a GM. The Chinese are very aggressive and ruthless businessmen and they want to make their stake on the world. Time will tell if they do it through quality or by price. My bet would be on price...:cool2
Previously somebody referred to the chinese, among others doing reverse engineering. PLEASE GUYS!!!!!!!!!! Call it what it is. COPYING!!!!!!! Yes, it is COPYING!!!!!!!!!!!! No engineering of any kind. What is REVERSE ENGINEERING any way? There is no such thing, never has been and never will be. I am also getting fed up with these threads about chinese stuff. They have been in the dozer section, the grader section and now here. All the same every time in each. I wish our moderators would just shut down these stupid threads.
Well mate you cant really say that as a Japanese worker gets paid more then an american worker and it dose not make the japanese product higher priced then the American? also in most chinese like SEM , Luigong and bigger mobs there normal worker there is on around 5000-8000RMB (800-1300USD) a month and hosing supplied by the factory for free. but bear in mind that is not the normal wage for a normal factory a person in a shoe factory or something would be on a lot less. To Bluetop I did not realise that SANY had built a plant in the states that is very interesting i wonder what there pricing will be like and you would think this would give them a major boost in service and parts for the states? just my thoughts but i think this is a good thing might help to make CAT lower there prices a bit.
I, on the other hand, wouldn't miss a thing being publicized here. The more vetting of Chinese and other imported equipment, the better. I have found that when threads are frequently closed at the drop of a hat, a message board predominately comes to reflect the generally narrow outlook of a few mods and contributors and becomes basically a private dialogue between a select few parties, a private board in essence. No thanks. There's a reason why freedom of speech is such a big thing in America. It keeps you from buyinig cheap imported junk machinery...
Well one think i want to ask people out there are CAT machines more heavy on fuel then others? i have heard this all though out asia but not too much back home and iam just wondering why dont hear too much about this is it because of the fuel grades?
Greg mate christ i think you where born with a USA Flag and a CAT stamp on your arse haha just kidding mate honestly know a few blokes like you
The last thing we want to do is close threads, and typically when we do, it's not so much because of the topic being discussed as it is the behavior of adults responding to a topic being discussed. I strongly implore everyone responding to this thread to keep a cordial and respectful tone, as there's no denying that Chinese equipment makers are making their move on the global market, like it or not, and for anyone to stick their head in the sand and imagine this is not so is ignoring the obvious. For this reason, it's a relevant topic to be discussed. But keep the comments respectful fellas. Well, being a former Marine, it's likely Greg does, in fact, have an American flag stamped on him somewhere, and if not, he has certainly worn the patch. He may take his patriotism to the max JGS, but he's earned the right to do so. I'm sure your comment was in jest, but as I stated in comments above, let's all make an attempt to be respectful here.
Sorry willie59 mate just couldn't help it wont happen again.
Once you become a Marine Willie, one for life. No Cat tatoo JSG, but I will admit to Cat underwear here. LOL THanks Willie.
haha mate its JGS for the record. greg when are you next coming back to china i would like your opion on the NM360 and NM460 steel types say compared with there american and hardox counter parts. as i know its all well and good on paper for them to have nearly the same chemical compunds also what steel mills did you help set up over here and in what city? do you have and experience with any mills in changsha?
This seems to be another interesting thread. I like hearing of the good, the bad, and the ugly of the whole issue. I hope this thread stays on the civilized side, so we can hear more. I will say that for a country that in the lates year I found data for made just short of half of the steel products in the entire world by tonnage, all of the factories doing it cann't be producing poor quality, nor can they all be producing high quality. We are talking about a huge country, both in population and in physical size. To lump the whole thing into one stereotype is not realistic. Seeing the effort put forth from the students that come to the US to learn and take skills back to China, they must know how to do things right. There is also a huge environment where poor quality operations can thrive by taking advantage of customers simply looking for the lowest up front price. Maybe 10 years ago, the feeling was that China was economically about 40 years begind the US. This would be in technology, metals, manufacturing, etc. Now I would estimate they are no more than 10 years removed from the US in these areas. That is a huge gain in a short time, and shows me a commitment to succeed. I feel the low priced producers will soon be pushed out of China and into other, less developed countries, and the quality coming from China will increase as well as the price. We all live in a global economy, and that will not likely change as long as there is fuel to power a ship accross the seas.
mate agree 1000000000% and you are right about the low cost guys getting pushed out wages are going though the roof big time i think it works out to about a 15-35% a year pay rise for my workers since 2006 and also this year i was just reading it is estermated over 165,000 excavators would be sold in china. oh and greg on a little side note bet them CAT undies are made in china haha.
Reverse engineering is by definition copying. I didn't think there was any confusion or anything obscure about my choice of words. The chinese very boldly copy and reproduce any and all products on the market. In terms of intellectual property, they are the worlds' largest assembly of pirates. Think of a patented product or business model and there is a pirated chinese equivalent. Does any of this look familiar?: http://www.reuters.com/news/pictures/slideshow?articleId=USRTR2PIQT#a=17 http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/31/chinese-carmaker-blatantly-copies-ford-f-150/ http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/business/27trade.html http://www.psfk.com/2011/07/china-fakes-an-entire-apple-store-pics.html The cheap excavators only cost less on when the original buyer signs the purchase agreement. Despite the lower purchase price for new, the depreciation is much faster than any of the proven brands and the cost of ownership after disposal of the unit is often significantly higher. The manufacturer can set the purchase price, but that doesn't dictate the cost of ownership.
josipoi, If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck then it must be a duck. If the politicaly correct term "reverse engineering" is by definition copying, they FOR GOD'S SAKE call it what it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Call it COPYING. Let the whole damn world know it and call it what it is. I am glad that you have stated this and sited several examples in your post above.
When I was there in '07 that's the way it was. We stayed primarily in Hong Kong but went to Beijing as well as the Great Wall. Anyway, pretty much every consumer good you come across, even in Hong Kong, was a fake. Fake Coke, fake Marlboros, etc, etc. As far as the Chinese being just 10 years behind us technically, I can see that. However, environmentally they are 40 years behind us, unless they have really got their act together over the last 5 years. :cool2 The air and water pollution is terrible. From air so thick you could cut it, to creeks that are black as motor oil, it's awful.
Few before reading this I was a man that prefers quality at an affordable price.. NOW I DEFINITELY STILL AM lol!:usa
Politically correct?....me? When I hear the term "reverse engineered" I think of a bunch of monkeys crowded around a tire swing trying to figure out how the knot was tied.
LOL, I "reversed engineered" a few things as a kid and got my rear end tanned because of it.
40 years might be conservative. The US has never seen the population density that china has nor the number of dirty factories. They're in uncharted territory. Here's one chinese product that doesn't appear to be copied: http://www.thefix.com/content/south-korea-confiscates-smuggled-pills-containing-dead-baby-flesh90074
National Public Radio did a piece on people from Africa going to China to set up export and import companies. One of the people interviewed made this comment that seems to describe the general feeling of China. I'll paraphrase as I don't remember it exactly. "Many if not most Chinese businessmen consider cheating, lying and general dishonest practices as being clever and not doing anything wrong." Recently there was an international warrant for the arrest of a Chinese national that had been operating auto wrecking yards in Washington State. His practice was to lease a piece of land and start chopping up cars with an excavator. Environmental protections didn't mean anything to him. All the fluids went on the ground. The state would go in and close him down and he would move operations to another place and start again. This went on for a number of years until the state finally had enough to press criminal charges that put him in court facing years of jail time. He pleaded for mercy and for some reason he was allowed time to put affairs in order before his stint in the gray bar hotel. It seems that mercy is for suckers as he caught a plane back to China and hasn't been heard from since. I'm probably in the boat with most people in that China will have to prove itself to be something other than just another crooked businessman trying to make a fast buck on those that don't know any better.
Ok i want to remind everyone this is not about china iam looking for answer in regards to the chinese manufactures and not the chinese business culture. also i want to hear from people who have chinese machines.
All things are relative JGS. In any country, business culture is relative, at least has an affect, on manufacturing process, marketing, end sales, product support, hard to separate all these components. I'm of the opinion of others, China is a huge country. There will be manufacturers that make good product and are striving to take their legitimate place on the world stage. Likewise, for some time yet, maybe always, there will be some Chinese producers whose only concern is making and putting as much product on the world market as fast as possible, take the money and run. In either case, the business culture is directly related to the end product.
I think it's kind of difficult to address the opening question without looking at the other factors that've been mentioned. The environmental issue, for instance--I grew up in Pittsburgh PA, USA, once known as "The Steel City", and equally as "The Smokey City", and sometimes referred to as "Hell with the lid off". There are pictures of winter afternoons downtown in the 1940s that were as dark as nightime, because of the smoke from the mills. Today, the air is clean, pretty much, but we don't make much steel any more either. Part of the reason for that is that the cost of bringing those old mills into compliance with today's environmental standards (here in the states) made it cheaper to make steel elsewhere. Now, I'm not saying that's the only reason for the decline of the steel industry here, but I'm pointing it out to illustrate that there's a cost to having clean industry--industry that cleans up it's own waste before sharing it with the rest of the population. In a sense, as a society, that's a luxury, because my local history has proven that you can have industries that make lots of stuff, and lots of money, but that make lots of pollution as a by product. Clean air and water is a luxury that we, as a society, have decided to pay for here, that the Chinese have apparently decided to forego, if CM's description is anything close to accurate. So, in reply to your question, that's one factor in how they can bring products to the world market at a more competitive price.
You seem to want to steer this thread in a certain direction. If you have a message to share, just post it. If you can mention a chinese manufacturer that isn't based in china and does not have a chinese business culture, then we can talk about that company answer your questions without talking about any of the things you don't want brought up here. Otherwise, how are we supposed to talk about a manufacturer without talking about the manufacturer???
China is on the brink of social revolution, and rampant pollution is one of the primary drivers. Not possible in China? The Czar Family of Russia can tell you what can happen when the majority populace becomes totally pee-owed with government. To stay on topic, if it happens, how will spare parts availability be affected? :beatsme
Another thought on this question... Is the cheap Chinese maker actually making a profit at that price, or is it a long-term market strategy to essentially buy a share of the market by foregoing any profit (or even taking a loss), early on, in hopes of making it up once the brand has established itself?
Somebody please show me how to copy from previous post here like lots of others do. In response to CM1995's remark about "reverse engineering as a kid," all you had to do was put it back together the way it was and nobody, I am assuming "Dad" would not have known as long as it ran like it was supposed to. Otherwise, your "reverse engineering" was all in vain. LOL baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
The key thing here digger242j is the brand establishing itself. With the quality issues, product support associated with many chinese products it is going to be a real up hill fight. Even mighty Isuzu from Japan who builds an excellent line of Diesel engines has product support issues as far as parts and service are concerned. Ask anyone who has a Link Belt excavator with an Isuzu engine in it if they have had problems.
Greg just look at the lower right hand corner of anyones posts and there is a "Reply with Quote" button. Click on it and it will quote the entire post. You can also go one button over to the right of that one and it's a multi-quote button. Click the multi-quote button for as many posts that you want to quote and then on the last post you want to quote, hit Reply with Quote and all those posts will be quoted. My "reverse engineering" escapades usually involved a sledge hammer and when the "experiment" was over there weren't many parts recognizable enough to put back together - hence the back side warming that usually commenced after said "experiment".
Well....that leaves me out...:stirthepot
Actually quite a good question, when you look at the broader picture. Yes we know that workers in China and other parts of the world get paid a pittance, relative to what western workers get. However wages are only one factor in unit cost, raw materials, factory set up costs, taxes, worker benefits (super/health/etc), management cost (da bosses gets a load of dosh) and other associated costs come into it. These things may well be cheaper in the PRC than in the west but are still present in some form. Well maybe the way to look at it is to work out how much Cat pays out in workers and executives pay, benefits and bonuses per hour and then apply this to productivity per hour. In other words what are the real worker costs per machine produced in the US compared to China. Whilst the CEO and all the executives and their support staff do not actually put machines together, their costs have to be put into it, perhaps therein lies a big reason as to why the Chinese can build cheaper, if they don't have to pay execs as much for running a company, they can use those savings to create market share. I suppose we could also perhaps say that the average Chinese company has a smaller R&D department but I am not saying any more than that.
LOL, a Link Belt with a Cummins...let me count the ways that mother had problems.
Same. Thankfully in Junior High and High School we had a shop and auto class that let me have a better outlet instead of my parents things.
I don't believe the original Cat 200 series design was copied from anyone. Modern excavators are all so similar they must be copying from one another.
When i worked for CAT i was told the orginal 200 models where brought from Mitsubishi i remember a lot of the older blokes talking about them. and still know a few blokes talk about them. but hey correct me if iam wrong just what i have heard others say.
The chinese at the top take real good care of themselves too. Guy that owns the company which I last did work for is a billionaire. Lives in the best place, driven in best car by driver as is his wife and family too. As for productivity of the people on the shop floor, it is next to nothing. They have people swarming around like bees. Saw one job where a wheel loader was loading trucks. They had a whole gang of people with shovels loading the loader bucket, then loader dumped it in truck. When I was there I had a car and driver as well as an escort/interupter with me all all times. They have overhead in china just like we do here. As far as R&D goes, forget it. All they have is a copy department.
actually this might come as a surprise but i must agree with greg in part. the chinese CEO's and bosses mate dont you worrie they are taking good care fo them selfs nice new Benz or BMW's house worth a few million US and the list goes on. my factory workers wages are low in china but what i find you cant have workers here who multi task like you might have a bloke back in aus who could run the profile cutter and weld buckets together in china forget it one man one job thats it no multi tasking. one thing i do notice about the R&D beasicly that changes a hell of a lot depending on companys some of the bigger companys do try and build new designs themselfs . but 95% of the companys basicly just look at what the bigger brands are doing and try there best to reproduce a cheaper version of it. when i worked for CAT in china as a QC officer i was offered heaps of cash a few times to get a chinese workers from other companys in there to see how its done. haha
Cat did or still does have a "partnership" with Mitsubishi. http://www.mhi.co.jp/en/news/story/0803261229.html From the article -
That is true about the wealthy Chinese business owners, however if they do not have very high up political connections, no matter how rich they are - they still can't leave the country.:cool2 The wealthy can go to Honk Kong, which the majority of Chinese cannot but they can't go anywhere else. This was the case 5 years ago, I don't know if it's changed.:beatsme
mate never heard of that your neighbours canada has always been the great out let for super rich chinese and you dont need guanxi (Chinese for relationships) most chinese who have money decide to stay in china as when you have money in this contry you get power and you can basicly do anything you want. in australia and iam guessing america dose not matter how much cash you have you do something wrong in regards to the police you are faily screwed but in china a whole other story. what a lot of super rich chinese do is get a australia and or Canadian passport and then come back to china and get there version of a greencard in china and go from there. but i am not sure who told you that never heard of that and well if they can get into Hong Kong then they can get out of china.
I agree with you except that intra Chinese business can be more expensive because you have VAT taxes on the transactions, and no tax on exports. Another thing to think about is the "synergy" of production, where you have a ton of factories in close proximity to each other. You need a few thousand special bolts? No problem, that factory is next door.
Like I said it was 5 years ago the last time I was there. My friends in HK have dual citizenship - Chinese and Canadian. They are younger and when England gave HK back to China (don't remember the date) their families took advantage of the open policy with Canada to get them out, not knowing what would happen. So now they are free to travel as they like The specific instance I remember was having dinner and drinks at a place in Hong Kong with my friends and they invited a guy named Peter that owned a plastic injection molding factory in the mainland. We discussed the costs of making plastic rebar safety caps and orange fencing. Peter lived in the mainland but came over to HK for the evening. I remember talking amongst the group about how he could come to HK but he could not leave. However that was 5 years ago, so has that changed? My friend from HK has been to the States, Alabama actually. I have another acquaintance (I use that term loosely with this individual) in Taiwan that has also visited Alabama but Taiwan is a different ball of wax. It was rather un-nerving the first time I applied for a travel Visa into the mainland. Leaving your passport overnight at the Chinese consulate in HK was something I had a hard time doing. The second time it was old hat.
well china dose not accetp dual citizenship well not that iam awear of as my wife is not able to get it. and yeah i know what you mean the same feeling for me about leaving your passport haha. but mate i never meet any chinese friends of mine that are not allowed the biggest i have ever found for them trying to leave the contry is the other end for there visa's only time i found they are not allowed to leave is if they owe the goverment a whole heap of money in unpaid taxes. also there is export tax in china 17% but you get about 11% of it back but that depends on the product. and taiwan is not china. same as hong kong it is not china either not untill the completed handover and thats not for a few years yet. i think your friend who had the factory would not have been able to leave as he might have pulled strings to get his factory set up or he could have also been part of the party and then he is not allowed to leave the chinese goverment has over 90 million workers and then every police and millitay personal is the same. but hey the chinese story on anything changes town from town person to person i guess chinese whispers is more then just a game
that is the best part about producing anything in china parts and everything you need is at hand well everything accetp for bloodie workers that know what they are doing. and if you are not chinese and set up a factory you are screwed. if i want to fire a useless worker i need to pay him 6 months wages just to get rid of him and then he can still take me to court and yeah most times the little ****ers win.
They carried Hong Kong and Canadian passports. Is your wife from HK or the mainland? I am not well versed in all the policies they have, just going on what I have seen and heard when I was there. My friends would use the HK passport when traveling to the mainland or Macau and said they used the Canadian passport to travel to the US and of course Canada. That's an understatement..
The lower labor cost is one, the other is the brand issue. Though China is good at manufacturing products, but not brands.I work in Lonking, a China based construction machinery manufacturer. Most of our customers have complained about the price of our excavators. Though we have better quality than hyundai, the core parts of the excavators such as engine and hydraulic system are cummins or kawasaki, but they still think the price should be lower, since they are made in China and by chinese. I think the reason that most people take for granted that products made in china should be cheaper is the historical reason. Price maybe the core competitive element in the past, but in the future i think brand-establishing is the way out.
Don't think for a second that shoddy employees are all Down Under with you, JGS Parts. They are Up Here , too, possibly in greater numbers and with more experience at gaming the employment entitlement system.
problem with the weston world is the work fore or lack of i should say all they want to do is get a job in IT or some other crap sit on there ass and get paid and then if not then sit on there ass and get government hand outs. I hate this about our contrys now.
Im interested for chinese machines for a while now. Its very hard to get any informations from people who have experiences with this machines. All I heared so far was pretty bad. As you seem to know a lot about this machines (@JGS Parts) maybe you can answer my questions. Are there any known chinese machines with working -hours comparible to other brands? If you look for used SEM, PowerPlus, LiuGong or whatever excavators or wheelloaders they usually get sold with very low hours. Hows the support for spareparts for those machines? I guess that will be different all around the world, but is it slower in general than the support of komatsu, Cat or the others? Do they have technicans all around the world?
In Australia at the moment, Chinese visitors are seen as the saviour of an ailing tourism industry. With the rest of the world's economy in the toilet and the high Australian dollar, middle class chinese tourists with money to spend are increasingly taking the place of European and North American visitors. With many direct flights and such a large population, China is a growing source of inbound tourism, and desperate tourism accommodation operators and allied businesses are welcoming them with arms outstretched. While there may be more restrictions than other countries, there are potentially millions of chinese who can take an overseas holiday in Australia... and breath some fresh air AusDave
No, that was the E series cat hoes from the late 80s early 90s like this one http://www.ritchiewiki.com/wiki/index.php/Caterpillar_E200B/EL200B_Hydraulic_Excavator . The original 200 series machines first became available in the early 1970s and I believe were an all Cat design.
I've been interested in seeing how much the Chinese graders are worth for a couple years now and even at Conexpo I approached some guys at Sany about how much they cost and what the availability is like. Maybe it was a communication thing, but they didn't even know what a Grader was, and I talked to like 3 different guys there. Later on I was at the Cat area checking out the 374DL and some Chinese lady from Sany walked up to the engineer from Cat and asked him where they buy their parts. LOL With that said, I do think they'll be major players ten or twenty years from now. I think they'll someday develop a brand equal to Komatsu and sell it for cheaper. (Not that that's saying a lot, I'm not a big fan of Komatsu.) Would be interesting to see a Chinese brand build some big mining equipment. That would be a very interesting test of their abilities to say the least.
Bingo!
What makes you think these machines are sold cost plus?
But a lower cost of production would allow a manufacturer to bring their product to the marketplace at a more competitive price, no?
if you can make it for cheaper you can sell it for cheaper
If you can sell it for more, you sell it for more. **note: this is not how I think things should be, but how I think things are in many cases.
It seems South Africa seems to do things differently to the rest of the world; we have a Chinese truck assembly plant just down the road from me, Bei Ben i think, we call them PowerStar. the trucks, although most of the components are made in china, are assembled here to South African standards; different air cleaner, wiring, some other things I can't think of offhand, mostly small things, but things that have a tendency to break over here, and whatever they take out of the box and don't like, they replace and throw the junk away. So far, these trucks aren't doing to badly, with their 10 cubic meter tippers selling the best, apparently achieving a 10% market share (which is not hard to believe, considering the number of them on our roads...) Never mind the pricing, as well as the serviceability of the things, no electronics and pretty much everything can be undone with a 13 spanner. Now, FAW (First Automotive Works) is coming, they have just signed an agreement with the COEGA Development Innitiative to start building a truck and bus assembly plant at Coega port.... Well, lets see how that goes, considering that FAW trucks aren't as popular as the PowerStar units... I would buy a PowerStar tipper in a heart beat; the new look (specially for South Africa), rugged build, and African toughness, as well as price are very appealing. It might not be a MAN or a Benz, but if it hauls dirt 9 til 5 and runs when you put diesel in it, why not?
It even looks like an older Merc truck http://www.powerstarsa.com/models.html http://pietersburg.olx.co.za/merc-2624-double-diff-10-cubic-metre-tipper-iid-104960130
The chinese mother company bought the Powerliner series cab moulds (or so I'm told) from Mercedes Benz, but the trucks have recently gotten a facelift, and the website has not been updated to show this yet, it would seem.