Hi folks, I have an old '85 Int'l 1954 that I drive as a service truck. I got the thing for free, stretched the frame to fit the service body, inframed the 466, and I run it pretty much just locally. I almost never even go on the highway, but I do sometimes. Slowly. I like the truck. I used to run a F350, but had that thing so over gross it was actually getting fairly dangerous. I like the fact that the Int'l is heavy and big. I don't really care so much that it's slow. I also really like the fact that it's paid for. Hah! Also, oddly, insurance is actually cheaper on the old cornbinder than the Ford was. Go figure. Anyhow, like absolutely everyone else in the world who ever started driving one of these, I hate the AT545 trans that's in there. I mean, it's ok for just driving locally, but towing or any driving in the mountains (I live in Denver), and it's just awful. I have thoroughly explored transmission options, and while I like the idea of a roadranger 10 speed, this buggy don't have air. Yes, I could install air, but I'm a lazy bum at heart. Also, I would need to install a different driveline brake. Refer back to the lazy bum part. Some of these trucks came with a Spicer 5 speed. That solves all my issues. I can even change out 5th to be a slight OD gear, which is just gravy. The Spicers have the mount on the tail for the driveline (parking) brake, and they're actually not that expensive and lots of them in junkyards. So, I'm real tempted to install one. But I find that everyone and their brother says they are complete crap and don't shift, there was even a lawsuit (like who doesn't have one of those?). So, my question is, what makes a Spicer so bad? Can they be made to shift right? Why does everyone hate them?
What exactly is your issue with the existing transmission? What do you think a 5 speed will fix about it? Has anybody here heard of anybody installing a Roadranger in a non air [work] truck? All it would need would be a *reliable8 small electric air compressor. My gut feeling is the splits on the 5 speed would be so wide, you will wish you had the automatic back. Another option would be a lockup automatic, MT 6xx series. There have to be donor trucks all over in this configuration.
I don’t have a answer for your question, but I would love to see a picture of your service truck.
My core issue is heat. Under a heavy load, that trans just sits there and gets hotter and hotter. It also doesn't have a lockup TC, so that's lost power and a 466 isn't exactly a powerhouse - I need all the ponies I can get to the ground. Id certainly prefer a 10 speed, and I like your idea of a little compressor! Maybe then, I could get an air horn and be really obnoxious.
This is the only pic I have of it at the moment. https://www.dropbox.com/s/30jje6sk891crkm/snoball.jpg?dl=0 Oddly, this particular tow job was the one that put the nail in the coffin, so to speak, with the auto trans. I almost didn't make it getting that tractor out of the mountains.
Meh,.. the Spicer is fine. In my fleet of old IH rigs, they probably don’t last as long as they should. But, reman units are easy to source and reasonably priced. There certainly are other 5-7 speed options available. Look at the Eaton catalog. Consider a Mico Hydraulic parking brake vs a driveline parking brake.
I’d probably try to score a MT-653 out of another truck. Seems as though the IH CargoStars and the C series Fords used them frequently and often with the tail shaft park drum.
My last service truck had a 7 speed spicer in it. I hated it until I got used to shifting it. Now I’ve got a 6 speed Eaton and wish I had a donkey low gear.
FWIW our '99 4700 DT466 service truck with 5sp Spicer is slow as waiting on Christmas in January. Wish it had an Allison 3000 auto in it or at least a 6+1 Spicer. The 5sp that's in the truck is good for 60 MPH - uphill, downhill, loaded or not.
Never seen an S-1954 without air brakes myself. I had two of them in rollback service. Both had 5&2 drivelines with DT-466 engines and ran damned near bulletproof. I want to say the rears were Rockwell. One truck was an 83, the other an 86 and besides rust issues in the cabs, they were great. A good trans for that chassis is either an RT-610, or RTO-6613. There are a couple around here with that driveline behind a DT-466. Have to shift them very fast, (like a gasoline engine) but there is plenty of "grunt" without being all that powerful. Decent economy too.
I'm pretty ignorant. I drove an older Ford Tri axle 20 miles several years ago. At the time I thought "What a pleasant truck to drive!" It had an Eaton Fuller 10 speed. Today, I was in the passenger seat as my son waged war on near the same transmission. Very similar Ford dump trucks, I'd say near the same transmission. I suspect the difference was the clutch. Both had Cat inline six engines, how they compare, I don't know, todays truck was rated at only 220 HP, 30 less than my own truck weighing well under half GVWR. I had an old 1976 Chevy C65 Eaton 5 speed, Eaton two speed rear. I was always frustrated I couldn't get the hang of downshifting for intersections, or down hills. Recently, I read in a manual: "Never attempt to split shift to slow for intersections, or steep downhills. Turns out it was working as intended! Split shifting was definitely best uphill, or getting to speed loaded.
My reply and question to your question is: 1. Everyone hates the AT545: I am OK with them but never drove them in the mountains while towing. 2. The 10 speed Road ranger has some advantages. Lower gears and closer splits. There is also a 13 speed with deep reduction instead of OD. That could be an advantage in the mountains. 3. The 5 speed Spicer is no so bad. Probably not do as well on the pull off as the 545. 4. Change out to a slight OD gear: That does not help you pull at all and you are not concerned about road speed? Dt466 is a gutless wonder. It will work its heart out for you forever and ever. A different transmission can help in some cases. We are flat landers here. One of my buddies has a DT with a 10 speed and a 2006 Dodge Cummings. Dodge will smoke the little S model pulling 20 rolls of hay every day. Only way the S model wins is brakes. Just saying the transmission change will not get the results you want IMO.
I have an 1986 International S1954 w/o air, it's hydraulic brakes. Ripped my Spicer out and put a Eaton FS-6206A in, Fully Synchronized 6 speed rated for 620 ft. lbs of torque bolted to a DT466 mechanical. Ripped the drive line brake out, put a hydraulic line lock in for a parking brake, and installed a AutoMeter GPS speedometer in. Rears are 4:89 on mine so when I split it in 4th it climbs steady but not fast and I have fuel turned up with pyrometer. Also had to realign the pinion angle.
Wise man.
I can see why you don't like the heat of the AT545. I have only passing familiarity with them. But no lockup is certainly going to generate heat continuously, especially on long grades, up or down. How hot does it get? Leaving it be is certainly the cheapest option. An MT643 whould be the obvious choice. There were thousands of 466/643 combo trucks just like yours made. If you can find one with a bad engine and good transmission, that would be nice. But mainly it will depend on what you can find for a used transmission. It does no good to say you would rather have x transmission when you can't find one. Also consider the effort of putting in a clutch and linkage.
Wow, lots of responses, but I never got the email notice. Geez, sorry guys I'll try to keep up. I looked into the MT643, and I didn't find any option with the parking brake drum. I'll look some more. That would be the easiest option. Well, the easiest option would be, as Birken pointed out, leave it alone and not to tow in the mountains with this pig. I'd like to fix it though. I like everything else about this truck. It's simple, no computer, no EPA, also no ballz, but I'm hoping to fix that. I think those hydraulic like locks, even the nice ones that Coaldust pointed out, I believe have legality issues. I'm not required to get a DOT number yet, but if I do, and get inspected, they will fail me for those, if there is no other parking brake available. They can't be the main parking brake, from a legal standpoint, is all I'm saying. SpudMonkey, I read your whole thread on your trans. We're in the same boat, and that 6206 is a bit cheaper than a RT6610. I have my HX40 turbo ready to install, I'm just waiting on the time to do it. Also going to turn up the pump, and advance it a bit. I have EGT and Trans Temp gauges installed already. Max trans temp is 275, and when I was towing that tractor in the steep hills outside Evergreen, CO, I was slowly creeping up. It got up to 250, and I would stop for awhile, let it cool down, and go again. Slowly. It would start to smell like something's burning HAH. This truck is just too big for an automatic, in my opinion. I'm an old - school hands - on kinda guy anyway. I like to be in more control of heavy things . I don't mind going slow and chugging up hills with my 4 ways on, I just don't want to be burning up stuff while doing it.
Well, I'll be damned... https://www.heavytruckparts.net/item/Allison/Mt643/Transmission-Assembly/65930/1/19153 They do have brakes. Also, oddly, this place is maybe an hour from me. They're the guys I got my frame rails from when I stretched 'er. A little spendy for an old trans, but this might be just a drop in fix. I'mma give this one some thought.
I don't follow the market for old used transmissions, but that does not seem spendy at all for what it is.
Not disputing you, but that to me does not make sense. Perhaps you or someone else can explain why you cannot use a micro brake or some similar as a parking brake. From what I can tell, they sell them as such. I have see many trucks over the years with them. since the driveline parking brake isn't worth the material it's made of (opinion there...) I know within 30 minutes I will have a cognitive answer staring me in the face and I will give myself a "dope slap" for not realizing it in the first place....
About a million years ago, checking through the CMV regulations, I stumbled across some language that seemed to disqualify those line locks as parking brakes. And no I can’t quote you CFRs. There’s also stuff in there that says a truck as old as mine doesn’t necessarily need them either. I only know 2 things for sure; jack and **** and jack just left town. It all boils down to whether or not I get cited IF I ever get inspected. That’s a big IF.
Actually, yea I’ll agree with ya there.
OK, makes sense to me.
I passed my "first" CDL test with line lock brake so it must be some legality to it. Just as I passed my "second" CDL test Class A (Tanker, Double/Triple endorsement) with a rig with air brakes and no air brake restrictions even though I had a gooseneck trailer with electric brakes. Just need to read between the lines.
I'd have said my MT643? in the 28000 LB gross fire truck was handicapped by not having torque converter action in top two gears. Lock up is fine once I reach synchronous speed, but the clunk as it shifts to 3rd or 4th seems to waste power. All in all, it behaves acceptably, climbs steep hills slowly, Differential is approx. 5 to 1, so 2500 RPM is 65 MPH. The 3208 wants to run best at 1800 to 2000 RPM. I would love a 10 speed, I imagine that'd be a big job to convert.
It's been 3 years, but I bought a reman MT653 for my International dump truck with DT466 for $2500. I did not have or need a driveline brake as I did have air. I see used 643/653s come for sale from $500 to $1000 on a regular basis. On the hydraulic line lock - there must be some legal basis for them as we owned a late 80's F-750 that did not have air, that had a parking brake knob you pulled out on dash. When pulled, you heard an electric buzzing, and then the brake pedal got firm. You could then shut her down and walk away. When I was shopping for a single axle dump truck, I ran across several of these trucks while i was shopping
In that pic I posted of the truck and tractor, I think I was close to 25K GCW. I know for sure the truck is 15K. The trailer is 4K, and I think the tractor was around 6K. The 545 is rated at 30K max. I was towing in the mountains, etc so I was probably pushing that little slush box to its limit. I guess I should be happy I even made it home . An MT653 is rated at 70K, and would require me shortening the driveshaft about 10”. When I stretched the frame, which was a total PITA I will never do again (yes it’s all on my YouTube channel), I took the DS to a local shop to extend it the required 18”. The DS was a one piece, but the additional length mandated a carrier bearing and a 2-piece. So I put in an additional frame crossmember, and did all the driveline calcs, had to shim the rear axle to make the angles work etc etc. Total drag, but got it done and it’s been just fine. But now, since that 653 is 10” longer, I think I’m going to have to move my crossmember, which will effect my driveline angles. I think that crossmember is 16” behind the 545. If the 653 takes up 10 of those, that would mean I’d have a crossmember and carrier bearing 6” behind the trans. This is what happens when you start customizing trucks I guess
I had a 653 in a single axle truck, grossing 33,000 to 35,000 leaving the pit. Probably more when I did site work. My grandpa has 3 Ford trucks with MT653 in them, all tandem drive grossing 50-55,000 when we cross scales. Our only issues have been related to prior owners lack of maintenance, or our own abuse in soft ground. The one truck pulls a tag with our 590D Deer excavator on it. Not setting any records, but it gets the job done.
Thats not a line lock run away as fast as you can. Dont as any?? just run.
I would not trust a line lock as a park brake. I dont like the thought of what could go wrong if thats what i had i would also use wheel chocks.
I use one on my forklift because the OEM brake is not made anymore. I only run the fork a few times a week, but I need a brake that works. Granted, I installed one of those cheapo line locks, but it fails all the time. I have a few sitting on the shelf I just change em out. They’re fine for the fork, but yes agreed, I would not put one in the truck.
I thought it was the general opinion on here that line locks cause wheel cylinders to fail due to the constant (high) pressure. As well as the danger of it leaking away over a long time. Good for tow trucks that need to winch with all 4 wheels locked but only for the duration required.
Lucas girling hydarulic brakes. I had to look it up, but I see they are damn expensive to work on. We sold the F-750 we had about 5 years ago. The brakes never gave us any fits, always worked, but we needed more capacity that that truck could haul so away she went. All of the single axle dumps I saw it on were gas engine rigs that I didn't want to mess with.
In the late '80s where I worked, if I recall correctly, we had a mechanic truck with the 3208 and 10 spd, and the combination seemed to work ok on the highway. Truck was a, GMC with air brakes, service body with an IMT crane etc, so was heavy. Truck was fairly new then. Had the pickup style cab and tilt hood.
Unless laws have changed a Mico brake lock is not legal for parking.
Yup. Mine is GMC Top Kick. 1990. Other engines, GMC switched to the then current pickup cab. The 3208 & a few other engines they stayed with the 1973-1987 square body pickup cab. There is a lot of extra stuff surrounding it, you have to look close to recognize the pickup cab. It's quite sporty empty, reasonably adequate loaded, but hitch a trailer carrying an 18000 LB backhoe behind it, it gets slow.
Just curious where you find weight ratings for different transmissions. I don't know much about trucks but am curious to learn how to calculate towing capacity, and obviously the transmission plays a big part in that.
A few years back I researched specifications for the MT643. I didn't find much except torque & horsepower ratings. They seemed to choose transmission based on truck weight & engine. Though, I've never seen a tow rating or Gross Combined. This is a subject I hear often. I see smaller single axle trucks outfitted as a semi. Their drivetrain, I know nothing of. One self described expert says in CDL sized trucks it's about rear axle weight. To me, that doesn't seem logical. Mine, I figure I'm towing 23000, I wouldn't want more than that.
Class trucks the trans and axles are matched to engine torque and horse power. The brake shoe lining is rated at 23K lbs for premium lining. The towing hauling weight is calculated by how many axles and bridge laws going by gvw.
Just look up the data sheet for the trans. Like this one for the 653 https://www.dal-trans.com.au/files/MT-653_-MTB-653.pdf look at a couple of them. If you find 2 or 3 that say the same thing, you’re fairly well assured it’s accurate.
Even about the same color. The tilt hood was a real plus , as it was crowded. There was also a similar truck on the site that was a 4x4 conversion, had the 8.2 Detroit 4 cycle diesel and Allison. Don't recall that setup being much of a road truck!
That piece of earth moving equipment on your trailer isn't chained down.
I wouldn't be all that upset if I lost it as long as it doesn't kill somebody.
Yeah-wheel barrows are just that.
Although, that one is a family heirloom. It was my Grandfather's. When my father was still using it, & I wasn't yet a father, I bought the most expensive wheelbarrow I could find. Told Mrs. B. it was a pretty, new wheelbarrow. It'd serve as our indoor wood rack. By the time Seth came along, I figured there'd be a tragedy, built a wooden rack we still use. That wheelbarrow is long gone, my grandfather's has held up fine. I believe on its second tire since 1939.
Got your money out of that one.