I have only been on this forum for a short time. I am dissapointed to find in the last few days a number of members posting threads which, If you look below the thinly veiled veneer of the subject matter of the thread, is nothing more than an advertisement for some unheard of species of Chinese excavating equipment. Indeed one member actually confessed to being a Chinese salesman when pressed on the issue by me. Another so called Australian member had the audacity to post a reply in a thread with nothing more than a link to an advertising brochure for a Doosan excavator. That member must think that we are all totally stupid and will immediately be converted by his link. I wouldn' buy a Chinese excavator for a number of reasons. A. I don't like being conned. If the product is good it will come to pass that it has a good reputation, has proven lasting power, smoothness of operation, safe to operate, reliability and parts are readily available. In my view the Chinese excavators fail all of these criteria. B. It may put quite a lot of people out of work in some of the Western economies which have been producing these products for some time. The Chinese excavators even if they are made by Caterpillar in China should also be avoided. Unfortunately one of the problems of free trade is that companies can easily choose to shift their operations to countries employing cheap labour.This is good for the employers.They get to produce the product at a reduced cost because of the cheap labour thereby increasing the profit margin. However the people in the traditional economy which was originally producing the product are now out of work. In fact they now cannot even afford to buy the Chinese excavator because there is no employment and the economy is in decline. I believe that there is ample example of this in the US economy at this time. C. Production of Chinese excavators would involve production methods which are highly polluting ( probably double the pollution experienced in the traditional, old economy). D. It involves employing Chinese people to work for very low slave labour rates ( I think another member here called it a "sweat shop" ). I would stress that these are my opinions. Not everybody will agree and I am sure that some of the Dealers masquarading as genuine members will be posting here in droves. Regards, Aussie Nick
Aussie Nick, B,C and D are my thoughts but you said them first. I'm neither here nor there on the subject. I've seen a few peddlers come and go here and it is just that. I'm not sure if this guy is just wanting to get ideas and become a regular poster or be a poser???? I'm a grain of salt about the whole idear. I don't run equipment any more but so desire to learn more since I'm in system engineering. My heart is into trucks and equipment and how they have evolved in the last 25 years is a huge success of the engineers who have developed this stuff. Fair trade is a big deal down under isn't it? can't sweat shop the peps when everyone gets a piece of the pie. My biggest problem with China and India right now is the countries who have hired them for the use of cheap labor have exploited those counties and that is wrong. But the leaders of those two countries are equal in blame for the money that they receive for this very exploitation. I can't blame them but the pollution and lax safety is very unsatisfactory.
post hello Aussie Nick,you ask a question about the loaders ,i posted the link to answer your question ,i dont work for any of them companys ,i work in victoria ,worked in eartmoving in the past ,may need a post page with equipment reviews so they can post company equipment for a price,pay for there add like in the top bar , bruce oz my web page http://www.freewebs.com/bacolcaterpillar22/ .
Aussie Nick, Nobody disputes your right to select whatever machinery you want...and you will find similar parochial and sometime patriotic views expressed well throughout this forum and from many different countries. However, I interpret the subject thread somewhat different based on my experience here as a Moderator and as an operator. This topic comes up from time to time and is discussed at length by the administration: Members with a vested interest in the subject get one "freebie" "Hi, I'm from Whatsaappillar Manufacturing Inc, here is a link to our new machine" After that they can become a site sponsor or get banned if they continue to advertise. The members will very quickly let us know when something is fishy, plain biased or, essentially, its spam. Thats the rules and many of the members here will tell you that spammers get nailed fairly quickly...or so we like to think anyway. In the case of Hitch; I don't see any hard sell, inappropriate links or advertising. I believe its informative and when you have a member who has a vested interest who admits it, and also admits to shortcomings of the product from which he is very loosely representing, then he/she should be encouraged to participate. There are literally dozens of members here representing various manufacturer's in various different capacities.....many work for those manufacturer's but are not in the least representing them in their membership here. Our objective is to keep these forums objective, informative and professional. If you want to get real first hand experience from operators, maintainers and manufacturer's alike then we all have to keep an open mind and judge input from others on its merits. FWIW we have to address the issue of unsponsored advertising on a fairly regular basis. These are generally judgement calls on behalf of the administrators. If you see something that you believe is inappropriate then please let us know.
Yes. I agree that Hitch has been honest when pressed and he should be congratulated, (and I hereby do so) for his candor and honesty. I notice however that he has gone on to post assorted pictures of Chinese excavators after the admission. I hope that this is not a case of "confess and avoid" But I would certainly encourage him to continue to be honest and candid.
Hi Aussie Nick I am very surprised to see this topic and if this is due to my thread posted in the past few days. I would say you have misunderstood my incentive. I didn’t expose more information about my work before, since you doubt about this, I would like to open: I am not a sales man of China branded manufacture, I am a sales trainee working in Caterpillar Global Petroleum department (selling engine and generator to oil & gas industry) 2 years after graduate from college. I became interested in Construction machine since 14 years old when I firstly saw the huge CAT truck in a mine site near my hometown and my brother worked in one of the CAT China dealers - Westrac ( you must know it) for 10 years. So I always try my best to know more about these fantastic machines. I have join this forum for 1 year and haven’t post or participated any thread, then one day I saw the Iron horse’s “Jonyang 230e Excavator”, I became a little bit excited because our forum members begin to use or begin to know about China branded machine, then I post a thread “Some basic information about Excavator in China” in the “Excavator” forum. My purpose is to introduce some reality situation about excavator in China to other members without any advertise motivation for any brand. As for the pictures of china branded machine, I thought our members all know the famous brand but maybe never see what china branded machine look like, so I pick some China branded machine on job site to share. I am fully responsible for what I said before, if you still have other questions about my “advertisement thread” let’s discuss further.
Thanks for your detailed post Hitch. I for one am always keen to observe and encourage members of any country, colour or religion to provide valuable input in a forum. The participation is what enriches the forum and makes it a worthwhile place to visit and learn. I was astounded by the technical assistance (Even though I couldn't follow the plumbing directions) offered to Iron Horse in the Joyang thread. Of course I and other members are not privy to your personal information so no-one can ascertain your motivations except from the content of your posts. In the circumstances wherein your thread appeared to me to be written by a salesman, and I then I asked if you were one, you replied "yes " without volunteering any further information or comment as you have now. It is not only essential but critical that members are fully appraised of the different kinds of machines available. In this regard your posts with photographs should be welcomed by all. However the machines themselves are meaningless and worthless unless their existence is related to the men, women the general worldwide community and the environment which they serve. In this regard I have raised some issues which you might care to broach (discuss). I will repeat again that I have congratulated you for your basic honesty whenever you have answered questions directly. Realizing that there is a language barrier , I expect that allowances have to be made for your responses,Certainly I would have no hope of communicating with you in Mandarin. Over to you.
Never know it could be quite fun and a head throbbing experience:falldownlaugh
It's doubtful that I'm evern going to buy an excavator, but I do have a backhoe, dozer and a dumptruck. All for my land and personal use. That said, finding the best price for what will do the job for me was a big part in what I bought. None of it is chinese, but that wasn't a reason not to buy it either. If I came across a chinese dozer in my searches that I felt would do the job and I had the support to buy parts for it, I would have been very interested in it. It wasn't too long ago that Japan was the country the put out cheap cars and equipment, or at least that's what people used to say in the early 70's. Then in the 80's korea took over at the cheaply built cars. Now it's inda and china. Both have the ability to build better and build it cheaper, so as a consumer, it's very interesting to me to read about the various brands. Just imagine if that chinese excavator makes it here, opens up shop and sells the same sized equipment for $100,000 less then the competition!!!! Then add dealer support with parts on hand. They will make a killing and the other brands will have to seriously rethink their prices, which are way too expensive anyway. It's just a matter of time until china and india get thier stuff together and improve on quality. Japan and Korea did it, so it's not impossible. Then it will be some other country or region of the world. Africa? South America? both have the resource to do this if they can get their coruption under control and take advantage of their labor pool. Eddie
Being from Texas I sure miss those East Texas pine trees and the land scape was sure pretty, but back to the topic at hand. Many of the known reliable manufactures have out priced themselves and they are partly foreign made with parts sent worldwide for assembly. Yet a unit from China or India might be as good in many areas and not so in others. But if the product support was good and the machine up making money I could see and I too might consider a foreign brand. In the US or where I live now your equipment on site tells about your ethic of work. So hang your company name on equipment and not some rental company is what I'm referring too. So it is easier to get caught up in names to keep business. It may be shallow logic but it has worked for a long time. I ran a 444E for a while and we bent the bucket removing a stump one day. My boss said had we had a CAT this would of never happened. Choice of metals was the cause for the failure of the bucket. The deere imo had better creature comforts than the CAT and it was less work to operate. but the CAT had some motor with down deep torque. These days somethings aren't what they seem an we have to go out and put ourselves out in the middle and find what works for us best. That is not just for equipment but for everything we by as a consumer.
What Eddie Walker says above is pretty much what I was thinking. I too am old enough to remember when the label "made in Japan" was a synonym for "junk". These days the debate is not whether Japanese goods are junk or not, but whether they're that much better than everybody else's or not. I think consumers have voted that they are in a lot of cases. The point hitch made in the other thread about Chinese goods in the 10 or more years ahead of us is spot on as well. As for Aussie Nick's points, there may be some truth to them, but they need to be considered in a global sense. People never seem to grasp that the world today is different than it was fifty years ago. Today, businesses, and their employees, are not just competing locally, but with everyone, everywhere, world wide. I've long said that if they could figure out how to dig holes over there, pack them into 40 foot shipping containers and send them over here, we'd all be out of our jobs too. We, in the industrialized nations, have long had a higher standard of living than those in the "developing nations". That's given us the luxury of having factories that pollute minimally, workers that are well paid, as opposed to "slave wages", and clean, safe workplaces, as opposed to sweatshops. Go back in time a hundred years, and you'd find all of that right here in America, and I suspect Europe and probably Australia too. People put up with it, because it still gave them a higher standard of living than they had back on the farm. They were happy to have us export our sweatshops to them. Why are we now surprised that theyre even happier to have our good jobs? People in the developing nations are doing the same thing now that our grandfathers did--putting up with it, because it still beats the hell out of life on the farms in that part of the world.
What the hell does colour have to do with it. White man in Africa speaking. What next, refusing to buy a deere ADT 'coz its made in Africa by Africans? I do agree with you on a few points, but refusing to buy an excavata 'coz its made in a certain country is not what us earthmover freaks are about. We love equipment wherever it comes from. And since when is Australia concerned about pollution, its not like you signed anything official in Brazil or something drawn up by the UN. And yes Eddie, we do have a large labour pool.
The point I was trying to make which is patently obvious is that colour has nothing to do with it. I can't understand why you would attempt the slur when it was obvious. Australia has signed the Kyoto Protocol and Carbon Emission Trading will be introduced in 2010. I can elaborate further but wont. Now what is south Africa doing about pollution?
I didn't read anything sinister into Nick's comment. Rather, I read the opposite. While he may have some issues with the way China (the counrty) is doing business with respect to manufacture of equipement, he's expressing that he's totally respectful of the participation of any individual here on the forums. Or am I missing something?
I suppose that I was a little out of hand, but having been brought up in a society where the smallest mention of race is dodgy, i suppose I should not have come out full guns blazing. I also did not know that Aussie has signed the Kyoto protocol, what with slow deliveration of news about international standards and what not. Sorry. Africa is a poor continent, with corrupt money grabbing governments that spend every last cent on war instead of electricity (cough, cough, look at Zim, not that we aren't far behind) to uplift the population out of poverty where they still rely heavily on burning wood and paraffin, coal to heat and cook for themselves. All though South Africa may not be doing much, we certainly are trying our damn best. We may not use a lot of Chinese equipment, but we do use it. It is becoming quite popular.
For many people, both the quality and price are two important factors when they choose an excavator, some will choose the product with a common quality low price. I don’t know how many Chinese excavators you have used, but I am sure not all of the Chinese excavators are so bad in all of the criteria as you said. And I am sure many of the good quality famous branded excavators which being sold to worldwide are made in China. It is the economic trend chooses which country will be the place to manufacture a excavator, not China people or government invite foreign companies to establish the factories. The same as other products and industries. You may not like this global integrated economic, but I am sure you are now enjoying the result of this trend. If you refuse, I suggest you do not buy any thing made in China including clothes, furniture, PC, mobile……Then I will be very proud of you! I tell you, more than half of the pollution in China is produced by foreign companies with their production methods! More and more foreign companies begin to establish factories in China that means more pollution and employment. It is a alternative choice and we choose accept the pollution and economic development, improving our industry competency to make sure that people like you will not always criticize “Made in China” in the future. Which would you prefer? No job and can’t afford the family or work as a (you called) slave labor to make the family live. And I know many of the Medias in your country never report the developed part of China, always focus on the topics like so call human rights. I would suggest you visit China to see the real situation of the whole country. To be honest, I agree with some part of your opinions, but I can’t understand why your response so sharp about “made in China” when I just post a thread about product in China (not product made in China). But anyway, what you said will not influence my confident to China branded machine or branded machine made in China. Best Regards Hitch Fan
Chinese Industry Congrats to Hitch for sticking up for his country. I for one have been talking to many Chinese business people in the past 7 months,& the one thing I have found is the pride in service & product. Today ,out of the blue,I got a follow up email from a Chinese bloke I spoke to in February.I can assure you that I never get that service from Australia,USA & Japan. Recently,a Jap company wanted to slug me $1000 each for a lower track roller on a 5 ton Track Loader.That roller is worth $200 retail. $1000 would buy rollers on a big dozer. So what do I do? Give the $$ to the Jap,so he can drive a better car....or go to China & get a good roller for the fair price.My money went to China,employed a man for a short while & helped me out of a bind.I'm happy,China is happy ...& Mr Jap keeps his paperweights & old car. I recently worked on a pipeline job,& there was a Chinese 20 tonner there,doing a good job in tough,wet conditions.It may not give 10,000 hours,but the young/operator owner may have got a good start in his business by buying this machine.....a start not offered by any of the majors. Country buyers are also buying China loaders for the farm.For $55-60K they get a loader on the farm that performs all the tasks it needs to & keeps the farmer's liquidity intact for fertilizer,fodder ,debt payments or whatever. Remember Nick,one size very rarely fits all ....& don't be too taken in by all that Kyoto crap.Window dressing by pollies means we all get to pay more $$ for nothing gained.I dunno about you,but my pockets are of limited depth...all that warm,feelgood stuff is for spoiled little rich-kids. Jim
Thanks Jim for your candid post. I would agree with you full heartedly on the climate change if it was them darn spoilt little rich kids saying it. Unfortunately the scientific evidence is being supplied by some very down to earth and very believable scientists armed with some fairly conclusive evidence. The problem is visible in most parts of Australia and can't be considered to be merely cyclical. By the way the thread was not intended to run China down and I think that it was obvious if you read the thread carefully. Further there is a reason why the roller is dearer in Japan. Firstly it is probably of a different quality to the one you bought. Secondly the labour in Japan is higher because the workers expect to be paid a proper wage for their labour, in much the same as we do over here and everywhere else in the Western world. Like you I have purchased Chinese non generic parts for various items of machinery, because it was way cheaper and looked like the real thing. Unfortunately , with the exception of the Fu shen Compressor motor, I have been disappointed on every occasion.
Aussie I am going to have to back you up completely on this issue. While chinese product quality is improving, it still has a long way to go to match leading brands. You can argue that the prices are low because labor is cheaper, but it still isnt right to pay workers poverty wages just because thats the standard,and the workers dont know any better, is it? I have never seen a chinese peice of heavy construction equipment in my end of the world and I think those are some of the reasons why. So while buying chinese makes sense to some, I think the vast majority of proffesionals will stick with what they know, for now.
Chinese Hi Nick, Your experiences buying out of China are totally opposite to mine. The rollers I bought are very well made...& will likely last 80% as long as the Jap rollers.Don't ever assume that the OEM product is the bees-knees...they are being made in China too.The steel quality is often the only standard that varies....as a low hour user who can save $900 per roller,I'll go with China every time.Clutch parts I have also had success with. The fact is ,unless you're a company making big bucks,running a piece of gear is getting beyond many people who are fringe users ,such as hobbyists ,Farmers,etc...& young guys starting out . On the Chinese labour issue...picture our Western societies in the Industrial Revolution. Yeah,our ancesters worked hard in bad conditions too....the other option was starvation.Our ancestors took the work route & worked our society into our current comfortable position. Even today,many of us get up each day @ 5AM to go & work....we are slaves only to our own needs & wants. Judging another country from the sidelines is a Western indulgence .... they will sort out their role in the world,& are doing so. On the Kyoto topic,why would a minor country sign up to a Protocol that no major polluter is part of.? It's a scam so we end users of everything can be taxed even more...so while all the majors are continuing their non-stop polluting,you & I can pay more for our electricity & cars & food & know we are making a difference only in our minds. Lets see where we are in ten years time.....
All that I know about china is that they are Communist. Communism isn't a bad idea, and China is starting to come around to Western Culture's ideas and systems. We must just remember that the Eastern countries do things differently to the Western world. Us Africans aren't either, so we do things that would make Westerns cringe. ie: the African Way. Anyway, in China and so forth, Machine makers aren't just machine makers, as in the Western World. They make kettles, cars, computers all under the same name, directly or indirectly. Besides, if China is so bad, why are the Olympic Games being held there? Its 'coz they can do it fongkong equipment and all.
OK I may be a slave to my wants and needs but I can quit this job any time I want. Can they? I think its more forced labor than slave labor since we are all slaves to our wants and needs. Do forced labors get to come and go as they please? Pete
Communism isn't a bad idea?
Communism isn't a bad concept, especially when it lives up to the promised ideals. Everyone has a fair paying job, housing and food, and in a world where unemployment is rising, good on china. We can't crit countries whose political system is living up to the promises made to their people. They promised that everyone would get a job, and thats what happened. If it works for them, thats their business. I'm probably sounding real Gandhi, but it is not for us to judge what they are all about. Like I said, communism isn't a bad idea, its the way you go about it that counts. Even if there is a degree of 'forced' labour, and even if they are paid a pittance, as long as its enough to get them by for 1 day, its enough and no one can complain It's not like America didn't do it at some stage, South Africa did it, even Australia did it at some stage in the dark and dirty past. Accept it. Its not like it is going away to very soon.
Administrative note: We're crossing the line into political discussion here. That's contrary to HEF practice and policy. To this point, the discussion has remained civil, but if this discussion goes much further afield, or becomes overly contentious, it will be closed.
here we go with the pg-13 rated crap
That last comment of mine was a bit too far gone. At the end of the day, it is all about personal choice. if you don't want to use it, don't.
No, not at all. It's just that things like politics and religion are hot button issues for a lot of people. Heated discussions in one thread have the potential to carry over into other threads--Somebody gets the mindset, 'Oh, that guy that doesn't like my brand of dozers is the same idiot that thinks that other form of government is better. I'm gonna flame his ass...' It's counter-productive to what the purpose of Heavy Equipment Forums is. That's why, even though we don't prohibit it entirely, we don't let it get out of hand.
One of the best pieces of advise my father gave me when I was first looking to work overseas aged 19yrs. DONT argue over Politics or Religion and DONT play cards for money :cool2
Negative posting Yep,this was a pretty ordinary ,negative topic,dragged here from another forum. I reckon Nick didn't have a good weekend,& Hitch came thru OK. Jim
No it wasn't dragged here from another forum Jim. Perhaps you would care to tell the members which other forum it came from. I had a fine weekend. So far your posts have been half reasonable, except for this one which is descending into personal abuse. I don't think that you can speak for the other members of the forum Jim and neither can you presume that the other members don't have the intellectual capacity nor interest to discuss some of the issues raised by this thread. I often find that the descent into personal, unprovoked attack by any person in a debate is, more often than otherwise, counterproductive and of no value. I haven't bothered to respond to some of your base arguments, leaving that to other members to do if they so chose to do so. I have plenty to say about your claim that the carbon emission trading scheme is just a con by the Federal Government. This is just a nonsense when you consider that the whole of the European Union has already adopted the scheme. How would you expect Australia to persuade the major countries such as the US and China to join, without Australia being a participant even though the emissions emmited by Australia are low overall but right up there when you consider the emissions on a per capita basis? I never understood this to be some kind of personal duel and race between me and Hitch. It is actually members exchanging different points of view and hopefully everybody benefits from the discussion. Hitch actually said he agreed with "some of what I had to say". Actually Jim I find your last post quite childish and personal.
If I may... I suspect what Jim meant was that this thread was inspired by the other thread that's currently running, about basic information on Chinese excavators. Had he phrased it that way, perhaps Nick wouldn't have felt it was such a personal attack. Or maybe it wouldn't have made any difference. :beatsme Either way, before you two come to blows, perhaps it's best that we put this one to bed...