I was told to buy an old predef/regen dozer and if it fails have it rebuilt…. It’s better than buying newer def/regen models. Is this true, price wise? Or is the newer emission models better and more cost effective? Thanks
Go on Youtube and watch lots of Jpaydirt over the years. You will get some idea of what it is like to operate by this theory.
Appreciate it brother! Watching now
Well that's a loaded question - Need some background on what you are trying to achieve. What's your budget? Whats the intended purpose of the machine - commercial, farm, hunting camp, etc? What's your level of mechanical ability? What is your level of equipment experience? Who told you to buy old and rebuild? Oh yeah welcome to the Forums!
Pros and cons to both so pick your poison. It seems from my experience that the def/regen systems have a lot of problems. I believe there is a mandatory 5 year emissions warranty then after that it can break the bank. The good thing is the control systems are so advanced it's almost impossible to lose a major powertrain component unless it's just neglect. They are also better on fuel. The pre-emission machines are being rebuilt by some. If you go too old, parts availability becomes a problem. There is a ton of aftermarket parts out there, but the quality has become questionable over the last bunch of years. Used parts is a crapshoot.
Great info! Good take on the control systems and potential parts for the old machines problem. In the end… going newer is probably a safer bet
I’ve been developing raw property since Covid. I’ve become familiar with heavy equipment… but only a couple years of part time experience. I’m a full time pharmacist. But see that going south in the future. So I’m trying to find good dozers, excavators, skids and dump trucks. A guy I got to quote a couple ponds said he buys all old equipment and has em rebuilt, pre-def. That’s my only reason for asking about new vs. old. He said his new machines shut down because of Regen maintenance and leave him stranded on jobs. Thanks man!
Gotcha. Well I am a hybrid of running old and new. Have a 2011 321DL and a 2023 325 Next Gen. The 321 has 8K hours on it and we use it as a spare machine or additional machine on the job so it's partially "retired". Currently the 321 has a small oil leak on the engine - can't tell if it's the oil pan or something else due to the compact radius. It's not leaking terribly but will need to be addressed. I'm willing to invest the $5-10K (that's what I estimate) for the repair since the counterweight has to be pulled etc and this is above our mechanical skills. The 321 is worth around $65-70K as it sits with no monthly payment. However it's a 13 year old tractor with 8K hours on it so more money will need to be invested to keep it operational. How much money to put into the machine is a personal business decision. On the other side we have a 2023 325 complete with GPSv- $350K tractor with everything. This machine with GPS and onboard scales makes us money but comes with a $5k a month payment and increased insurance cost. It's still under warranty (negotiated an extended warranty at purchase) however we haven't had to use it - yet. We traded in a 2018 325FL on the Next Gen 325. We did have DEF related issues with this machine that shut the machine down 3-4 times IIRC. Had roughly $8K in field service calls overall since the parts are covered but the service truck is not. Kinda hard to load up a computer shut down machine and take it in... At the time we traded the 325FL in our dealer had negotiated with Cat to swap out the DEF injectors that were giving too many issues. Perfect timing on our part right? Also have a 2021 D3 Next Gen that so far has had no issues on the DEF system. I think Cat and the other manufacturers have improved the DEF systems over the last 3 years. We run 3 DEF pickups, one with 200K miles and haven't had an issues yet. YMMV I think a lot of DEF issues are due to improper storage and handling of the DEF. I've seen 1/2 full jugs of DEF next to conex boxes poured into machines to keep them going. We only use jugs of DEF and either use it all or pour it out.
So all in all Def tech is getting better and as long as maintenance is consistent… you’ve seen the new machines work as intended? How do you know bad Def? If it starts to crystallize? Use it when needed and never store and use later? Thats what I was thinking. I’d have no problem with the track repairs. But pulling the counterweight… you’d have to have a crane or something
Those 320 models are beasts! The most I’ve used is the 200’s. Thats why I can’t go back to the small machines. Once you hit the 30,000 lb machines… going down is just a waste of the day haha.
Yes from what we are experiencing the heavy equip manufacturers are using more reliable DEF systems and we are not seeing the issues in the older DEF machines. Crystallization is the reason we use the entire 2.5 gal jug or pour it out. Not worth saving the few $$ to the risk of contaminating the system. We order 10-15 jugs at a time and store it inside. Grab a couple of jugs as needed. I am not real keen and we're not big enough to need a tote DEF system.
Old stuff is for hobbyists, if it was built in the late 70's or so parts are a problem, as well as metal fatigue. It depends on its use, if its a toy go old, if it is to make $ with, I would not want to have to be constantly working on it, and hunting for parts.
I have a mix of new and old, the dozer, backhoe, one skid steer and tandem dump truck are all late 80's to early 2000s vintage (non emissions). The mini ex, CTL and one tractor are new, but under the 75hp threshold so no DEF. Pickup is new but is a gas model, after years of owning diesel pickups I've gone back to gas, no emissions related problems, cheaper maintenance, and the power/economy have come a long ways in the past 10yrs. I don't mind the emissions stuff in general, but the DEF is a **** poor (no pun intended) band aid solution IMO. I'm trying to go as long as possible before having to buy any equipment that takes DEF. Maybe by the time I'm ready for new large equipment they will have better technology and not need DEF. The key to running older equipment is 1) buy something that still has parts support through the dealer, 2) spend more upfront for something nice/low hour/not abused, 3)be able to do all your maintenance and repair work yourself.
I'm keeping the 1998 JD 120 in working order, it pencils out for the company when a new machine would be prohibitive. They just don't work enough hours to keep a new machine happy.
That is the other main reason I'm keeping some of my older equipment around. The CTL/Mini ex run almost daily and don't cost that much new, dozer only runs about 200hrs a year and a new one costs more than I paid for my house.
That’s my only option going older… if I can do a lot of the maintenance. Definitely!
I’ve been keeping an eye on them. Definitely an investment
Yep. I try and clear all my potential rental acreage myself…. To save money and for write offs. Very good point. After all the rental and transportation charges, purchasing would be smart. But new machines are definitely an investment
Same reason I've kept the 321D around. A 50K machine is $7-8K per month to rent plus all the fees and having a spare machine around gives flexibility in bidding jobs. A lot of good advice and real life experience on the new or old equipment question. The answer is personal to an individuals business, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.
As mentioned here "all got to do with what u intend to do" in Europe EGR systems came first, after 2000, after that came DPF / SCR with or without DEF add on. All got to do with Exaust emissions acc Euro6 rule. My opinion is that if someone is running a piece of equipment 150H a month, he will have to make money!!! and that can´t be out of pre EURO6 rebuilt machines. If someone need a loader for yard job @ 15H a month yes he will see his money well spent in a pre EURO6 rebuilt equipment. What does not work is using as was fixing it when it comes about. Long ago, when i was a foreman in a road building company, we bought 2 9G´s from netherlands for a small contract that required either a pair of 80ton dozers or a pair 100 ton excavators. Well one lasted 1 hour(broke the crank @ flywheel) and the other was sold a the end of the job for the same cash both cost, we even had rebuild the failed one with a marine engine and sold it for the same price. Can tell u of other not so interesting stories. Machines like a D6 R III well worth a rebuilt, same as a decent shape 325 D excavator... but most of this machines are stupidilly beaten up... when repairs go beon engine system and or powertrain in my opinion does not worth the assle, unless one does it for fun. Regards to all
Yep! You can do your best to check for damage…. But can’t be 100% sure. I’m going to stay within a few years of age when I purchase. The pre-def’s are too old and beaten to death in most cases.
Sometimes you can find good older machines that weren't beat to death. Better outfits will have all the service history.