I was wondering what people's oppinions are on the zero tail swing machines. Mostly in the 320/321 size. I know the manufactures claim that they will handel the same size bucket/load that the normal machine will. I can see advantages to not having the tail out there, and I think the visability would be better, but is it enough to justify the extra cost. I would have to think that working on them would be a nightmare, as we do all of our own maintance and 99% of our own repairs. Does the extra weight (321 weighs as much as a 322, with a similar capacity as a 320) make a noticable diffrence in soft conditons? I work in mostly rural areas, and have not had any situations were we could not do a job beacuse of the tail swing, so it would be more of a luxury than a nessasity. Seems like even if I am working in an open feild, where I need to work will be right next to the only tree in it.
right equipment to right job? Fitting the components which will serve desired performance (in its class) in a relatively small area is not easy. Thats why manufacturers commonly use smaller components for short radius machines, but run them on high performance. I believe this may decrease the commercial life of equipment. (i.m.h.o.) Also servicebility is relatively hard. On the other hand, while operating machine runs in a smaller are than classic long tail excavators. that may matter depending to the job and needs. Is your site small, or will you work on narrow a street? In my opinion its better to decide the type of tail through the place machine will work. Because short tail gives you nothing but pure safety. If working area is not small/narrow/dangerous classic is always better.
I've moved several brand new 321C CR's recently, but haven't had the opportunity to do any work with one yet. I'm curious to try one, and see how they react when the stick is extended all the way out with a full bucket, compared to a normal counter-balanced machine...I'll play with one the next time I get to a jobsite when nobody's looking, and see if I can't get it to do a nose-dive.:cool2 I have in fact, used our 305C CR for a day's work with an oversized 3 foot ditching bucket, but that's a tough judgement call, because the bucket was too big for that mini-ex to start with. I had that little guy doing all kinds of rockin' & rollin' just to keep it interesting.
My thoughts are if you dont need it, dont buy it. They cram enough stuff in these machines as it is that it can be a pain to work on, but then going and stuffing it in an even smaller package. If i was doing a lot of work in cities or tight places then i would definitly go for it. Just get the extra gaurding so when you swing the back end into that tree you forgot was there you dont cave in one of your side doors
One thing I've noticed comparing specs, is that often the zero tail swing machines will have sider, and sometimes longer, tracks than their classic counterparts. As an example, my mini-ex is 39" wide, the zero-tail swing equivalent is usually 5' wide....that can mean the difference of even getting the machine in and out of the job for me. Mark
Depending on the design they can be a nightmare to work on. I was looking at a JCB and the starter was on the backside of the motor you need arms 6 feet long to get at the damn thing. But on a big komatsu it seemed pretty decent to work on.
do you have any pics of those 321C CR's
I have no experience on those two machines, but the zts machines I've run have been a little tippier, nothing that you can't get used to quickly, in tight conditions it's probably the way to go. With the conditions you said you operate in I would go with a conventional tail swing, talk to a cat road mechanic about servicing/repairing.
I've only been on a handful of zero tail swing or short radius excavators, mostly 115, 135, 235 Kobelcos, and a 120 Deere, not counting minis. The cabs tend to be more cramped due to the reasons explained above, and some regular service items, such as air filters, can be a real bearcat to get to. It is nice, though, not having to think about swinging into anything with the counterweight while working in tight quarters. Would I plan on trying to run a zero tail swing hoe past 10,000 hours? My gut feeling tells me no.
I ended up buying a Zero House Swing machine (Bobcat 430), but I do think it rocks a little more than a regular machine. I ran a John Deere 120 & it was very stable, but the 130 or 135 (whichever is the zero tail swing equivilant) rocked a little more. I have already done several jobs with my machine that I could not have done without it, but for hard digging, I would think a regular machine would be much better.
I have ran several, the largest being a 300 Komotsu, the smallest being an EC88 Volvo. I would rent one if i needed it and buy standard. They will NOT handle the same size bucket as their counterparts period anyone who tells you they will is blowing smoke!!!. They are a PIA to work on, as stated above they still have to stuff the same amount of wireing, hyd hoses, pumps, motors, ect into a much smaller space and it is crowded enough in a standard machince (I know this for a fact as I am removing the swing motor from my 320 as we speak, it is in the open and iI am still having to remove about 13 hyd hoses to get it done:Banghead !) They are very unstable over the sides for obvious reasons. They are great for working downtown and in tight spaces, that being said, i would rent one for that reason, but would buy a standard machine for daily use. Just my humble opinion . and we know that opinions are just like rearends everyone has one, this just happens to be mine!!:drinkup
Thanks for answering my question about stability with these CR's.:drinkup
perfect for city work Hi new to posting replies but here goes.I work for a firm that mainly does work in the city and we have 8 zeros from 5 to 23 metric tons and all i can say is how perfect they are for our job sites.If you have lots of room their probably not for you, but when it comes time to trade in I think they will be more attractive for resale. Two things against zeros is width and weight in comparison to the J.Lo version .Service on our zeros is easier than on our conventional machines thanks to remote filters and as far as hose repair goes the upper structure comes to pieces like all machines for easier access .Only real problem I had when building mountain bike trails was lunch box storage when miles from truck but great around trees and very stable on ski slopes where trails were THX
Zeros do have there place like mentioned by others, it is perfect where room is an issue. The only knock I have on them is the lack of room in cab and storage but thats the sacrifice you take.
Welcome to HEF sirdigalot! :drinkup
ZTR is next to impossible to repair woithout extensive disassembly Servicebility is relatively hard. Repairs are a killer. My Komatsu PC-75UU2E is douwn with a bad spool valve. Very nasty to service. I finally got the valve out.
But the question is, does yours stick out and bump into things?
I am renting a John Deere 225 RTS for a job I have going in the mountains. The machine weighs 55,000 lbs and seems just as stable as a conventional swing machine. Even with a 40" bucket. We are digging in a driveway through decomposed granite and I am having to bench it off as I go. The drive is only 11 feet wide. They wanted 10 feet but I couldnt get a machine that was big enough to do the work that was less than 10 feet wide. I chose the RTS because I am working in a lot of trees and I knew that something would get smashed. Not to mention I wouldnt be able to spin around in the driveway. This is the second time I have rented an RTS. The first was a little 135. It didnt seem tippy at all until I started dropping pipe into the ditch. That 36" concrete pipe is HEAVY! I had the loader put his bucket on the tracks to keep me stable.
That sounds like a pretty small bucket, any time running it with something bigger?
We are digging in both solid and decomposed granite. The 40" is even too wide to do a good job cutting through it. I have a rock bucket coming next week and will probably finish the rest of the work with it. Then switch back to the 40 to do a little fine grading.
sometimes if i swing the barstool to quickly, without checking my mirror:drinkup
I spend most of my time in a 70 SR kobelco. We also have a 27 ZTS JD. Both machines are balance well for being short radius machines, its tough to keeo a machine that small from rocking when you dig anyway, so I think in the 8 ton to 14 ton class I would always buy ZTS but if I bought a larger machine than that I would most likely get conventional. I did run a 225 JD and that seemed to be very well balanced. I was just trucking on that job but the owner of the 225 let me run it a bit. for the conditions I was very impressed with it.
swing im the equipment manager for a large construction company,we have 15 hoes,10 dozers,and just aquired a new 320clu thats a zero swing.only real difference is 45000.00
Liebherr R924 Compact Obviously, you should be sure that the measurements of the application in which your machine will be working actually require a zero-swing excavator rofessor But if indeed you do indeed require the dimensions of a machine to work in tight spaces you sometimes do not have many other options. I've dont some research and found that in your particular size class or interest, there are five options that I looked at; CAT's 321 C LCR, Liebherr's R924 Compact, Kobelco's SK235 SR, Hitachi's ZX 225 US and Komatsu's PC 228 US. If you download the brochures and compare the data as well as maintenance features, your best bet is the Liebherr. Although I think in general they are quite expensive. The performance data including HP, digging depth, swing radius, maximum reach, etc. all is in Liebherr's favor. :yup Durability and maintenance should also not differ greatly from a normal excavator and I would not expect the life of the machine to be drastically different either.
The 320CLU is a reduced swing machine. There is still a counter weight that swings outside the dimensions of the tracks. The 321CLCR is a - well almost - zero swing. My 321 has a couple inches of the counter weight swing past the outside edge of the tracks. The zero swing machines are very useful hoes. These machines really shine when digging benches in a pit or slope, building roads, foundations, clearing and grubbing, etc. Of course where they really shine is pipe work in a tight space, like a one lane shutdown where you have to dig and load a truck behind you. The base of the boom is moved back towards the rear, which allows the boom and stick to crowd back in closer within the radius of the swing. (like the pic of the Liebehrr) I think they are well suited for 40-50K class of utility size hoes.
Yeah, 320CLU is a reduced tail swing. The "U" stands for utility, just like the 311CU. 321CLCR is a C series 321, long carriage, and the CR stands for "compact radius", just like Cat's CR series mini's that have basically zero tailswing. As mentioned, it's pretty close, within an inch or two of clearing the tracks.
Near Zero Turn radius. I think on a larger steel track machine the dowside to zero turn radius vs. near zero is too great. Anything over 6 tons should be near zero turn radius. A large +14 ton machine ought to have the counter weight maybe up to a foot out from the tracks to give it capacity and stability and make room for service. I also think front blades are useful, provided the operator does not go overboard playing Dozerman.
Welcome to HEF Gasoil! :drinkup
Here zts is almost a most. The properties & roads are very smaller and in many places you'd have a hard time spinning a regular tail excavator even 180 degrees.
We rented two Linkbelts a while ago. A 220 and a 225. The 225 is the one we wound up owning. The 220 was ok and was a nicer machine to run compared to the 225. It was faster and had more power. The 225 had better visibility and fewer blind spots. It's pretty cramped in the cab and every ware else. They were both stable. The 225 can lift more then our 320bL without tipping. What sold me on the 225 was the zero tail and the way the boom and stick suck right back so the bucket is next to your head. If your tracks aren't hitting anything, you can pull everything inside the circle and spin it. It's awesome. I did a really dangerous backfill with it. It was a factory at the bottom of a cliff. There's no way I could have done it with a conventional excavator.
Thanks for all the good information guys, keep it coming. Has anyone used a Komatsu 308 or Cat 328? I am of the oppinion that any mini I would buy would have to be zts, and most likely anything smaller than a 20 ton machine too, but still undecided on the 20 ton class and over. Liebehrr... I have herd they are nice machines. My main problem with them is that I don't know who or where my local dealer is, or of any Liebhrr dealer in the state.
My excavator neighbor and friend of mine as two Komatsu 228's and one 308 ZTS. The 308 was balanced well from the factory. He had to add weight to the 228's kinda tippy. He had a CASE 225 prior to that, it was rock steady. All these machines have thumbs on them. He really likes the 308
Liebherr Dealers I went to the Liebherr website to search for dealers in your neighborhood, but just their U.S. factory site came up in Newport News, Virginia: E-Mail: [email protected] Phone: +1 757 2455251 I'm from Wisconsin and I know that "American State Equipment" out of Milwaukee sells Liebherr equipment, but I am not sure about Michigan, which I see is where you are at. Maybe American State could also help you out; AMERICAN STATE EQUIPMENT CO., INC. 2055 S. 108th Street Milwaukee, WI 53227 414-541-8700 Good Luck! :waving
We got our first cat 321 zero tail swing at work. Everyone who'd run it loves it. Zero complaints so far!
I have always found the 321 to have a cramped cab....
I love ZTS, once you get used to it it's tough tp remember to check when you swing when you run a conventional machine.
If it wasn't designed that way, the cab wout rotate outside the width of the tracks. This is typical of any zero tail swing machine regardless of brand. My buddy has a Yanmar Vio55-5 and I couldn't close the door without feeling totally cramped up. That and since the door is so small, the glass is tiny and I could never see anything to the left if the door was closed.
the ztr's i've run, seemed clumsy compared to a regular machine of same weight class while setting manholes, concrete pipe, etc...ztr's would be nice working in an alley, or confined space, but i know of very few situations where you'd have a 150 sized up excavator in that situation.
That's not entirely true! :nono In the case of mini-excavators, I can understand. But in the case of larger zero tail excavators, a good design can leave room for a spacious cab. In the case of the Liebherr R924 Compact, which I referred to before in this thread, the same cab of their normal excavators of these weight classes is used. :yup CAT uses a very cramped cab for their 321 (which is made in Japan). I don't know if they put large-bodied Americans into mind when designing this machine. :usa
The Kobelco SR's (short radius) cab hangs over in the front when you swing. I would rather have a normal sized cab, cuz I can see what it's about to hit, than have some cramped up cab that will swing inside the tracks.
You got that right. When i go from ZTS to conventional, I better have some touchup paint kicking around.
horses for courses Hi all Just to add my tuppence worth,I run 2 ex135ur and love them for what they are,tight places back yards etc.just great.,but I reckon the same weight machine in tail swing are more stable. I was wondering if some one could tell me what i need to look for when trying to establish how much wear there is on the undercarriage/walking gear. thanks
Close quarters This is my first post to the site , I been a heavy equipment mechanic /service manger for the past 36 years -----------My take on zero swing machines , they take the next bigger size under carraige and put it on the next size smaller upper that has been modified , with that said how can you really believe that it will be as stable and carry the same size bucket as the same weight class conventional machine , the best way to compare a zero to convetional machine is the zero has no ass , as mentioned over the side is where you feel it the most , the second draw back is working on them , I have the fuel tank out of a Bobcat 435 z right now and it was a nightmare to get it out , anything I have every done on a close quarter machine has been hard , something so simple as a oil pressure sending unit turns into an all day job , too much stuff crammed into too small a place , but , the machines do their job in certain situations where a conventional machine couldn't operate , so my take would be if it's a second machine or your type of work calls for it 90% of the time go for it , if not rent when you need it
Welcome to HEF Fishfiles! :drinkup
Short Radius You will ALWAYS find SR's will weigh more than conventional machines. To discuss SR's we CANNOT use the original weight classes as an indicator or of performance. They WILL be heavier than the original machine. If properly designed for North American markets. (No, I do not work for Kobelco or a dealer.) Example, Kobelco SK 210LC counterweight, 9800 pounds, Kobelco 235 SR Ctwt Japan..14,000#, North American 16,000#. To carry such weight and still have durability and travel power to give ability to turn, the undercarriage is from the next size larger machine (At least on Kobelco who really started the SR movement)...SK 250LC as is the swing bearing. Swing power MUST be increased, verses a conventional machine, as on an incline, the counterweight cannot help the boom swing up hill as does a conventional machine. The booms will be different due to needing to raise it higher than a standard machine. Hopefully, the sticks will interchange with your other machines. They do on Kobelco. Most drive and hydraulic components will be the same or very similar as standard machines Stability is actually BETTER on the 235SRLC than the SK 210LC due to it's undercarriage and weight. You will note that SR's by any manufacturer, feel..."Nervous". Consider a tipping condition due to large bucket on a conventional machine with the counterweight around 9 feet from the center of rotation, now although heavier, move the counterweight to 4 feet from center of rotation. During tipping, the conventional counterweight will move up and down, perhaps 4 feet, while the SR will move 12" at the similar tip condition due to it being closer to the tipping point and center of rotation. Stability is similar, but the actual tipping event is much faster on the SR. Cabs must be smaller to keep front swing radius as low as possible. While paint and sheet metal damage is important, consider safety of passing soccer Mom's and workers on the job. My two cents.