OK, so I am following the advice given on this forum and looking into getting the timing belt changed on my Bobcat 863. I called Perimeter Bobcat in Gainesville GA and they quoted me 1,200 to come out to my place, change the belt, adjust the valves and change the oil. They have a $75.00 call out charge then charge 115.00 per hour. :beatsme I need to get a few more qoutes if I can find another place who willl service skidsteers. Soooo, I am seriously considering doing this myself. I never worked on a diesel before but know my way around car engines pretty well. What do ya'll think? Should I bite the bullett and go ahead and get it done right or try it myself.
Get a service manual for your machine and if the work seems within your abilities you saved a lot of $$$. Do you know if the belt is "wet" or "dry". If it's a dry belt system I think you could do it yourself. I don't know about the price quoted to you but is lower than our mobile mechanic.
I think it is a "dry belt" . I know there is a tension device you need and a set of alignment pins. I just don't want to mess up a good machine. I also don't want to waste money either. I don't think it is ready to break any minute or anything, just doing PM.
Which engine do you have? I recall a Deutz engine that used a timing belt and the whole thing was just crap. The belt would break very soon after the recommended maintenance interval and bend valves and generally make a mess of the engine. I looked at one of these monsters and promptly turned the job over to the dealer. It required a complicated procedure to set the timing and a lot of components removed in order to get to the belt. I made it as known as possible with my customers to never buy any piece of equipment with those engines. If it don't have gears or chains then it ain't a real diesel engine. Good Luck!
Deutz have made some big engineering stuff ups in the past. On some of their engines they used fan belts to drive the cooling fan and when they snapped it took about 3 nano seconds to cook the engine. I am no fan of timing belt, prefer a chain as used by that other German Diesel engine manufacturer. Knowing a little about German thinking it is clear that everything requires vast knowledge, experience and about 5 grand in special tools to repair or maintain. Another big stuff up Deutz made was when they took over Allis-Chalmers and stuck their air cooled V8 engines in the Gleaner series of harvesters, the boss bought one of them, a R60 if I remember right (which was not as nice as the N7 I got to drive and I used to tease him about it too by asking how his Volkswagen is going and that the Cadillac I was using was going just fine), however the dust used to settle on the engine and then catch on fire. They subsequently made a fire kit to put on the motor but you still had to keep an eye on it.
Perhaps you can do most of the work yourself and get a pro to just change the belt and do the valves. Maybe talk to the mechanics and say "times are tough and I need to find ways of saving costs", they may be sympathetic or may say they want to do the whole job or nothing. Not such a big deal if you are flat out with jobs and can absorb the cost easily.
It is a dry belt on those Deutz 1011 series engines. The tough part is finding the replacement belt. I was trying to figure out how to install a gear or chain drive, but since there is no lubrication it is all but impossible. My rule is to never, ever deal with a Bobcat dealer unless you are personal friends or have no other choice. As for engines my Isuzu 4jb1 in my 843 has timing gears and parts can be found as the same engine was used in the Isuzu Trooper and some parts are just an autozone away. The Deutz is a disaster because the only parts come from equipment dealers or the goofy Deutz dealer cartel. Engine wise it is not a bad one though. The timing belt is the weakest link and a good source for parts is yet to be found. The parts prices are at crack smokin' levels. I am sure that if you can find the belt you can do it yourself. The only tricky part is making sure you have good alignment on your pulleys after you are done. There's a set of timing pins to align things and a belt tensioner. As soon as I find a suitable substitute I am going to make the process known to all. Please do not let yourself be ripped off by a dealer.
Thanks for the responses. As far as the engine design goes, sure I'd rather have gears too, but it is what it is. I'm not making my living with this machine,just using it around the homestead for varoius projects. (driveway work, clearing trails, getting the morning paper:tong) The way I figure it, with it having 2200 hurs on it, it should last me for a few more years with me putting 50-100 hours per year on it, and that maintenance should last for a while also. I was just in shock a little with that dealer estimate. Sounds like if I can get a set of those timing pins it might be worth going for. If not, I guess that's the price you pay for owning an "industrial" piece of equipment as opposed to "farm" type equipment. Hope I can continue to operate this thing! If not, it's back to a Kubota tractor. To be continued....
Do not get frustrated with your Bobcat just because dealers are expensive. As you said, skid steers are "industrial" and most businesses are not hesitant to spend $$$ to get their machine running or prevent catastrophic failure. Instead of new consumer grade equipment I have always used retired commercial machinery, often in very poor shape. Good example, I had a small dozer that I used for my vegetable garden instead of a roto-tiller. My lawnmower is a dixie chopper that was driven into a lake, etc. As my side work I maintain machines for small owner/operators and mini-farms and home use. Everything from a vintage Magatrac mini-dozer to a Case excavator. My service saves them time and money, several of these machines were formerly dealer serviced and the high cost almost drove the owner to sell the machine. My machines were too expensive to fix so I bought them for scrap value. Eventually I found ways to bring them alive for less expense. Some advice, hours are not everything. The age of a machine is critical because that also causes part failures. Rubber starts to age immediately so after 5 years a part is weakened even if it was hardly used. You should change your timing belt when you can, but at least check it out every 200 hours or every 6 months. Once you see cracks or fraying replace ASAP. Recently I have been looking to replace my belt and found NOBODY around here sells them except for the Bobcat dealer. Those rascals asked 181.00 for the belt and idler! They must think I am an idiot to quote such an outrageous price. Turns out I may be able to get the belt from the Chinese supplier I have been getting service parts from the last few years. Not sure of the quality but I am willing to try it in my own machine. If it fails I will ditch the Deutz and put in a Cummins 4BT...! Do you have a manual? Good idea to get one for any machine you own. As for the timing pins I made a set that seems to work, but someone else on here did as well. Hopefully he will share the dimensions so I can compare them with mine. Once dimensions are confirmed I will put them on my personal web server along with my vintage scanned manuals (M610, M700, OMC1700 ) and pictures too. Keeping older machines going is a good thing, and I wish manufacturers would encourage more non-commercial people to buy and service their products.
Thanks for the info Tallrick. That is pretty cool what you do with the retired industrial equipment! That was my logic in getting this Bobcat. Surely a machine that is build to be used every day for 12 hours or so would hold up for what I need it for. So far I am very impressed with what it will do. I will look for a manual and do a little more searching for parts and possibly a competent mechanic.(too bad you are not in GA) I am going to take a 2nd look at the belt(maybe I could post a picture):idea and make a decision as to whether it requires immediate attention or not. If you get any leads on 863 parts (belts, idler etc) I would appreciate it if you could pass that on.
Hey Macho, you should really be careful there. I just changed the timing belt in a T200 yesterday, only had approx. 2400 hours on it. You've got two timing belt covers on that engine, and the front cover requires a tamper-proof torx bit to get it out. But if you get the covers off, don't just check for cracking. Also check the teeth, they will start to tear off the belt. On the belt I just changed, all the teeth that were in contact with the crank gear at that moment got stripped off the belt. If you do decide to wait, just remember, right now your pushrods ain't bent. If the belt lets go, it will bend at least three, if not more (in my experience).
Not knowing your engine , i would wind it over with the covers off until i found number 1 TDC and the dots on the gears are both in contact with the belt at some point . I would then use a paint pen to mark the two belt teeth that are directly inline with the dots on both the gears . I would then count the teeth on the belt , including the painted ones . And then mark the new belt exactly the same and put it on . Check and re-check that the number of belt teeth are identicle between the marks and your good to go . It's nice to have all the correct gear for each machine but in the bush you must do as you need to , to get the job done .
The Deutz 1011F engines used in the Bobcat have no timing marks on the pulleys or crankshaft. Seriously, none. The alignment is by a hole in the camshaft and a flat spot on the crankshaft. The crankshaft pulley is bolted to a hub that is attached to the crank by a bigger bolt. There is no keyway either. The only safe way to change a belt is to turn the engine so #1 cylinder is TDC and there is no tension on the camshaft. carefully loosen the belt tensioner, remove old belt and install new one. Carefully tension the new belt after installing the new tensioner. Not sure how to get the correct tension yet, but I am working on that. The advice about marking with a paint pen is a good way to avoid making a mistake with alignment. As I mentioned before, as time goes on I will share my techniques for Deutz service if they prove successful, as well as any good part sources I use.
In that case , the paint pen can still work . Paint one tooth on the belt and the two teeth either side of it on the gears . As long as the old belt never jumped a tooth or two , i would count the teeth on the belt and paint the same teeth on the new belt and install it making sure the painted single belt teeth go between the two on the gears .
you need a spring loaded belt tensioner to get the proper torque also they say 3.5 tighten it to then it should be 9 to 9.5 lbs after rolling the engine around from 1 tdc to 1 tdc four turns also i have been to the perimeiter bobcat by atlanta very nice shop big alot of inventory yeah you maybe able to sweet talk a tech into some side work and stay hush hush about them doing it so they don;t loose their job you get your machine fixed and they make some money on the side you buy all the parts and i;ll d0 the work cut the shop rate in half or so and go to town georgia was nice in march last year when i was down there cold in the morning about 70 in the afternoon a little rain and other than that green and the off ramps where kinda diffrent
so I took the cover off... I debated with myself if I should even ask this question, but I am not even going to attempt to hide my lack of knowledge about this machine. If I don't ask I don't learn, so here goes. How many belts does this 863 have? I see a large serpetine type belt (see picture) and a smaller belt in the back (maybe a hydraulic pump belt?) Is the serpentine belt the timing belt? Or is it behind the flywheel. :beatsme What about the wear on the large belt? Should it be changed right away? After you get done laughing at this question, all information is appreciated!:scool
Yes the timing belt on a deutz is behind the 2 piece cover behind the crank pulley. As to replacing the belt in the pics if you have it down and cleaned up to work on it replace it. It is always easier to do it in the shop where you have tools,power and don't have to lay in mud or worse to fix something.
Macho your first pict. is your drive belt. Next pict. is your coolent fan belt. The alt. belt is on the right side of your machine in so is your timmine belt.
No, we're not going to laugh at you. lmao) sorry, I coudn't resist that. Your learning about your Bobcat, that's a good thing, the more you learn, the better you can maintain it. The belt in your pic is the belt that works the drive pumps and the work equipment pump. The smaller belt you see farther in there drives the engine cooling fan. It has it own belt tensioner pully that you should see back in there. I'm not too familiar with the Deutz timing belt, but I'd say it's on the other end of the engine.
The drive belt (goes to flywheel) is definately an old one, looks like 2000+ hours for sure. It is weakening and should eventually be replaced. However, replacement is relatively easy and will not cause any damage if it breaks. You will just have no action from the machine. The timing belt is on the right side of the engine. You have to remove the inspection cover on the lower right side to see it. I have to figure out how to take pics of my engine so you can see what I mean.
For parts ,I would try a Duetz dealer to see if they may be cheaper than Bobcat. I have a tech repair instructions that I can E-mail that is much better than the manual I bought. I would buy the pins, they are not that much. They have to be pretty close to the original because you adjust some things by backing out the pins by so many turns. I think they cost 6 or 7 bucks a pin. Your engine is sideways so it's a little harder to change than mine but it's all dry and fairly easy to do. You can't adjust without the tensioner tool. See above posts. I rented mine for ten bucks a day with a very large deposit. You can use reference marks with a pen or marker but the pins are what you use to line up cam and crank. The reason Duetz uses this belt is that it allows them to move the cam in the block and to quiet the engine down. Aux engines run gen sets off the crank with a similar belt The injection pumps run directly off the cam. Each cylinder has it's own pump and injector. Reduntant but if a pump goes ,you can limp it back to the shop. The oil pump is run with the same belt and the oil pump can be serviced from the front of the engine,oil pan does not have to be removed. The bending pushrods are designed by Duetz to save the valves if the belt breaks. Again six or seven dollars per for eight. I bought them just in case.Everyone that deals in the Duetz says the valve damage could be a problem, but talking to actual mechanics who have worked on them , none that I've talked to had any valve problems when the belt broke. they just replace the pushrods. You don't pull crank gear off to change the belt. My Gehl has a throttle so the engine is always going from idle to higher rpms and nothing has ever come loose. There is no harmonic balancer on the crank that you have to deal with so the puller and making room for the puller is not an issue. I can can understand breaking a belt thats connected to to a fan or water pump and burning an engine up but most engines will start rattling and throw idiot light before becoming castrophic. It's a non issue on these 1011's cause they are oil cooled. Toomacho , heat and dust are the enemy of any rubber and your serpintine belt looks a little cracked and if you have a lot of hours on the machine you should change the timing belt.Do find that special torque bit so you don't a *** moment like I did. I was able to to find a mechanic who worked on Duetz and he came over and replaced the belt and I watched. I opened every thing up so all he had to do was replace the belt. Cost me a couple hundred dollars but well worth it. I had replaced a belt earlier but still had a vibration, turned out be an engine cradle bolt loose:Banghead. Scott
Thanks again to all who helped out here! :notworthy I am glad i just put myself out there and asked some more questions. Scott: I appreciate the offer to e-mail the tech instructions and would not turn down that offer. My e-mail is " [email protected] " if you would like to send them. Meanwhile, I will search for some parts, and play around some more with that engine when I get time. Hey, at least now I know what side to look on! Many thanks to all again! Mark
Tech info? I would like to see that for sure! The tensioner is what I am trying to figure out how to substitute for, and I will come up with a cheaper alternative. Parts around here are a joke, the nearest "deutz dealer" is 40 miles away and this is a big city! Perhaps someone has a close-up pic of the belt tensioner so I can see what else can be used. Still hoping for timing pin measurements to confirm that what I made are correct.
If you have an e-mail I will send the instructions. We are opposite in that the Duetz dealer is easier to work with than the bobcat dealer and we really don't have a Gehl dealer here. You guys must have a marine dealership that carry Duetz in Florida. The tensioner is a neccesary evil And I dont think they should cast more than your everyday torque wrench. There is not much to them. I'm not sure how to down load a pic but will try. Scott http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg301/LANDTEKK/P4140007Small.jpg
Your picture worked fine. You can also put them on as an attachment. Look for the attachment symbol then you can upload them from your computer. There is some detailed instructions on the FAQs section on this site. How did you come to know so much about the Duetz engines?
Landtekk: I could not get my e-mail to go through to you. PM'd you today. Want to be sure you receive message.
You can email me at [email protected] . Have been busy today filing my taxes, and trying to get the parts I need from my usual supplier.
Toomacho, Glad you got everything. Practical experience changing the timing belt and 5000 hrs running the Duetz gave me an opinion. Having misinformation fed to me made me mad enough to find out how the engine worked.With all the help I got from others and the lack of info out there I feel I should come out of the hole I lurk in and pass the info on. Scott
Problem solved. The correct belt is Dayco 091 SHDN 254 H which is listed as an Iveco Magirus truck. It is available from NAPA and from my Chinese supplier as an imitation, but Central Diesel in Lake Wales has the genuine belt for 25.00! Still trying to locate the flywheel ring gear though. I am also looking for an equivalent for the Bobcat drive belt. I will let you know when I find a source other than the scary Bobcat dealer.
oh, come on Tallrick, Bobcat dealers aren't that bad
It's good As far as my 863, I finally got around to pulling the other cover off and inspecting the timing belt. It looked brand new, so it was obvious that it had been replaced :woohoo I did lean more about the machine during this process though, and will know what to do when the time comes. Now it's time to move on to more fun maintenance projects!
My wallet is what is scared of them, not me. Generally when the word dealer is used, the result with be overcharging. Very very scary. Perhaps some dealers are better than others?
excellent topic :notworthy
I found the 5 point torx tool at MacCo tools Snap on dealer said they do not make same
Deutz 1011 The timing belt and tensioner can be purchased from MEMO Omega in Dallas for $75. They will also sell you the correct pins for timing for $30. Deutz uses a different numbering for cylinders, start at the flywheel with #1, but you time the four cylinder with #4, and the 3 cylinder with #3. Need to have #4 or #3 at top dead center depending on 3 or 4 cylinder for correct timing position. The 5 point star wrench can be purchased through Amazon.com for around $25. Very easy to change the timing belt. Justin at MEMO can give you very good instructions on how to adjust the valves and do the timing belt changeover. Very help at MEMO.
Agco tractor dealers should be able to get all the deutz parts you want. Bash deutz all you want, they are simple and easy to work on. Air cooled engines have their flaws but by far are cheaper to operate and consume much less fuel. They are noisy however.
I really do not have anything against the Deutz engine but around here quality parts suppliers are next to impossible to find. The Deutz engines I have seen were in Bobcats, and you know how many skid steer owners care nothing about their machines. Whenever I need to run someone else's machine I am in horror because they never clean the inside of the machine or sometimes even the outside, some do not even know how to check their oil! Put a Deutz with a consumable timing belt and an oil cooler that relies on a full oil pan and disaster is the next likely outcome. Whenever I have been called to fix a machine it takes at least an hour to pressure clean and inspect it for problems. Guess it's just run it till it dies.
Quite a few years since the last post and some companies closed doors. Anyone know the best place to buy a complete belt kit or separate components? I want to buy a quality belt, cam/crank alignment pin tools, and tensioner tool. Anyone have good instructions on getting to TDC and belt replacement? I have the 3 cylinder F3M1011F
https://dkengineparts.com/product/d2929933/ https://www.foleyengines.com/shop/k...g&utm_term=4579878249691609&utm_content=Duetz https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=1011+deutz+timing&_trksid=p2380057.m4084.l1313