hi all, I have almost completed the re-wire on my case 580ck 188d, but this alternator wires don't read the voltmeter and light, do I need to connect the 2 spades on the side to complete this cycle to the voltmeter and charging light?
Please post a photo. No one knows how the wires are connected without a photo.
A voltmeter shouldn't need to be hooked to the alternator. The alternator warning light (battery idiot light) is usually the feed to the excite circuit of the alternator, you can try hooking that to the alternator, I'm not sure if it will function on a one wire alternator.
Ya Delmer, that's why I asked for a photo. I wasn't sure if he is referring to the dash voltmeter or ammeter or if he is probing with a VOM.
OK guys thanks, I'll get the pic to upload...the system was already upgraded to 12n ground, I completed almost all the re-wiring except for the alternator! After I looked at the diagrams in the manual for the 580C, its not clearly illustrated for me to complete this project. thanks jerry
Found this thread on another site...perhaps there are answers you need https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=ttalk&th=1055039
thanks Swetz, I looked at the above post but am lost. I don't understand the Delco alternators with all the components. I just wanted to keep it simple and use a warning light to tell what the alternator is working or not for my 580ck 188 diesel that uses a stop pull cord to shut the motor off. No electric solenoids
If you actually have a Delco SI type "one wire" unit, it won't have the two terminal spade connector on the side of it. It should just have a ground screw and a B+ terminal. The B+ terminal goes to the battery. Next, to monitor your charging system, simply use a voltmeter. On the other hand, if you have a regular run-of-the-mill, Delco 10si or 12si alternator, you will need to run a field circuit with an indicator lamp. Easy peazy. A quick google search will supply the wiring diagram. You might even be able to utilize your existing indicator lamp.
the alternator pics attached....
Some guys skip the indicator lamp, but I recommend you install a lamp or a resistor because the voltage regulator will work as designed. Or, you can use a 10watt , 10 ohm resistor. Sometimes, doing a retrofit will create a situation where the alternator can backfeed the fuel shutoff solenoid and keep the engine running even with the ignition key off. Various places sell a diode that prevents that specifically for the Delco SI series alternators. I've got a spare in my tool box. I'll see if I can find it.
There it is! Just a basic 10si one wire. It's not set up for an indicator lamp or anything. Just install a voltmeter and monitor battery charging voltage. No practical way to install an indicator lamp.
Your image does not show the two prongs on the top of the alternator that should be in that black plug. I can see the black plug in the top photo. I would like to see if any wires are plugged in there. They are crucial for it to charge.
Jerry's alternator has a self exciting voltage regulator. It doesn't require a field circuit. That's why it has the tamper resistant black plug on it. The 1 and 2 terminals are actually connected together internally. Here is a picture of it.
I think I've seen the self exciting regulators with the prongs and without. And also with a connector that adjusts the voltage for shorter use, or winter, or longer use. If there's no prongs, then you need the voltmeter working, no indicator lamp will work (or you could rig something up to read voltage and set the indicator lamp) If you have the two prongs showing, then hook up the wires you have, you might get the indicator light to work.
No there are no wires connected to the black plug in the top of the alternator, is that where the wires connect to and if so where do they go from there.
One 1 wire is hooked up to the back of the alternator, the black plug is where the 2 spades are..I don't have any other wires to hook up, that is why I am asking which wires go where? totally new to this stuff so I have no idea and the manual/ book doesn't explain anything that I understand.
coaldust, sorry but I don't understand your diagram. I don't see any Dios that you are referring to.
no wires are plugged in there [under the black plug] however there are 2 spades under the black plug is that where the wires get hooked to?
You don't need the 2 wires. You have a SE alternator that only has one wire......to the battery post on the back. Tape off the 2 wires and tie them to the loom. The SE will turn itself on with engine rpm and turn itself off.
Here is how it should be. The tan wire goes to the idiot light. Unless you put a self-exciting regulator in the alternator it won't charge below 1000 rpms. And it won't charge when you start the engine until you speed up to about 1400 rpms. The image is my own tractor.
Tinkerer has a good point. Depending on the size of your alternator pulley, a one wire alternator might not be such a good idea on that tractor because you will need to raise the rpms excessively high to get the thing to start charging. Jerry might try wiring a field circuit up and see what happens. Worse case, Jerrry zaps a $7 voltage regulator.
Tinkerer, look at the pics he posted, he has a 10si delco with a self exciting regulator already
That is why I requested a better view of the back of his alternator. I wanted to see the plug better. I'm thinking he should take the unit some where and find out if it is capable of charging at all. He may not have a wiring issue.
If the tan wire goes to the idiot light, then the other wire from the light connects to the ign switch?
Don't worry about that, Jerry. It looks like you have a true one wire set-up. Mine is a three wire. Those Delco alternators can be set up either way. I drilled a hole in my dash and added the idiot light. Simply because I wanted a visual indicator in addition to the OEM ammeter. Remove your alternator and take it somewhere that can test it for you. Yours may be defective.
Jerry, is your alternator charging with only the one wire hooked up? you may have to rev the engine all the way up for the alternator to start charging, but it should have no problem maintaining the voltage when the engine speed drops back down. IF you want an indicator light working, and you have a "low battery" indicator on your dash that's not working, then the wire from the ignition will go through that light, and on to the alternator, it should be hanging loose or cut off in the wiring harness near the alternator on most machines. It MIGHT work with the one wire alternator regulator that you have, it might not. A VOLTMETER (10-12-14-16V) on the dash will tell you if the alternator is working. If you have an old AMMETER (-30amps to +30 amps), that will work too, but the alternator wire has to go THROUGH an AMMETER. Jerry, yes, the warning light is connected to the alternator and the ignition switch, when the alternator is not charging, it draws current and lights up the warning light. When it is charging, the voltage at the alternator is the same as the ignition voltage, so no current, no light.
OK battery had to be charged to start the tractor, Im off to get the alternator checked! I see 65 on the Delco, does that mean it's a 65 amp? Just to add a note, there was a black wire and a brown wire attached but not connected to the red wire at the back of the alternator.
I could be 65 amp. A quick and dirty way to see if that alternator is working is this old school trick: Take a small screwdriver or steel pocket ruler and touch the rear bearing while the engine is running. If the alternator is working, the rear bearing will become magnetized.
Hey! No giving away old school tricks! Those should cost a beer at least.
Hey guys, tested alternator and it works, re-installed and not charging .. No reading at the voltmeter , basic wires are correct according to case diagram. not sure whats next
I'm lost here Jerry, 1) How did they test it? are there two terminals at the black plug that they hooked up to the tester? What makes this a "one wire alternator", where did you get it, how was it advertised? 2) belt tight enough, pulley not worn, engine revved up? 3) Is this Voltmeter a handheld multimeter, or a dash mounted multimeter that says (10-12-14-16V) or an AMMETER that says (-30amps to +30 amps). If it's a voltmeter, what IS the reading? 4) How many wires do you have hooked to the alternator installed on your tractor? how many in the black plug area?
The electrical connections on the back of the gauges maybe rusty and not allowing current flow to the battery. A quick way to test on the tractor is to use a voltmeter. Check battery voltage at the battery engine key off engine not running. With a good hot bat u should have 12-13 volts. Start the tractor let it idle..check voltage. Looks like u have a 1 wire alt..Rev the motor up after it warms up to energize the alt. Check voltage at the bat again.. You should have 13.5 to 14.2 volts. If not check the volt reading directly on the back of the alt. That will tell u if the alt is working or u have a wiring issue.
he has a 1 wire alt. where does the wire on the back go to, should go to the + post on battery. I have a old international tractor the wiring was all tore up when I got it , I just ripped out all of the old wiring and put a 1 wire on it alt. and it been fine for 20 years
Your tractor came from the factory with a Presto-lite alternator with an external regulator. That is why you have two wires hanging. If you look at the schematic there were two different alternators used and three different wiring configurations.
If you want to spend the time to read the details of the PrestoLite charging system, here ya go. But bear in mind it is for the Prestolite alternators.
This is about as simple as it can ever be shown for a true one wire conversion.
A few years ago I put a one wire Alt. on my 931 Cat loader. I took it back to napa several times claiming it was not working. It tested good. The problem was I did not go through the amp meter like the above drawing shows. After going through the amp meter everything worked as should.
So Don, was the alternator working and your ammeter not working? I've asked Jerry what he is using for a "voltmeter" and still suspect it's the ammeter in his dash...
It turned out to be a faulty Ammeter. The alt. was good it had to go through the ammeter to get excited which there was a short circuit in the ammeter so the alt could not get excited.. If that makes sense.
No, not at all. but I think you mean "the ammeter was faulty, it had an OPEN circuit/no continuity. The alternator output had to go through the ammeter and couldn't because of the open ammeter" maybe?
Exactly
It would be nice to know if there is an indicator light in the dash. Jerry says he wants one and it is doable. Whether it is there now or if he wants to add one. We need to know if there is an ammeter in the dash. Or if there is just an indicator (idiot) light. The tractor could have been configured with either one but not both when it left the factory when it was new. Only Jerry can provide the answers to the questions we have posed.
thanks Tinker, Don, NAPA said it was good. I'll keep working on the beast!
Delmar Napa said the alternator test was good and in is working as it should....
the amp meter gauge in the dash was broken, waiting a new gauge . the idiot light in the dash was already installed original with tiny bulbs painted red (one says alt and the other says Gen ) using my hand held voltmeter to check the wires.
I think that the two indicator lights need to be eliminated from your one wire alternator circuit. One of them can be used if you change your alternator to a three wire set-up like I posted a photo of.
thank you Tinkerer I'll keep ya updated
OK guys, battery is dead again..I disconnected the idiot light and broken ammeter, recharged the battery.. I am lost on what to do with idiot light and voltmeter gauge. perhaps I need to start at the beginning ?
If I were you, I would run a 10-12 gauge wire from the battery post on your alternator to the battery post (positive at the solenoid) on your starter motor. Then run a ignition side wire from the ignition side of your ignition switch to the battery side of your voltmeter.......then be done with it.
Also, when you think you are done, removed the positive cable from the battery......wait a few seconds then touch the battery post with the terminal you just removed. If you see or here any spark at all with your key off......your getting a current draw that shouldn’t be there.
Did you replace the broken ammeter with a voltmeter ?
You very much need to start at the beginning get a multimeter Do you have battery voltage at the battery terminal of the alternator? If not find out why do you have ground on the case of the alternator? If you need to run a set of jumper cables to the battery does the alternator charge now checking with your multimeter? if not does it start charging at full throttle? Alright if we are not charging at this point its either a bad alternator or it needs to spin faster with a pulley change dont care what the napa test says if its not charging that this point we can go no further In the dash a the indicator light will NOT work with a one wire alternator personally if the alternator needs replacing I would get a three wire and configure it that way as they are more reliable at low rpms An amp meter and voltmeter are completely different and NOT at all interchangeable we absolutely need to which it is that you have and want to use if it originally had an amp meter that will have heavy wire and be installed in the path between the alt batt terminal and the battery this would be a common point of failure if its disconnected broken or corroded you would have no power to the back of the alternator and hence no charging A voltmeter is preferred as it simply reads the voltage off the batterys it doesn't go inline and cant break the charging circuit also less high power wire running around to cause trouble
yes I replaced the broken ammeter with a voltmeter..but wired something wrong so now I am going to start from scratch.......starting with step 1.
If you installed a voltmeter in the place of an ammeter and started the tractor, you may have destroyed the volt meter. A volt meter is simply supplied keyed battery voltage and displays it. When you’re running it should read higher than when just the key is on(to show you are charging) An ammeter has the tractors Electrical load and charging current going through it. It is not typically keyed on or off. It can take the load of everything (electrically ) except the starter.
I would recommend that you install a 0 to 30 ammeter. You probably destroyed the voltmeter if you didn't wire it correctly. Did you change the wiring when you removed the idiot light ? All you needed to do was remove the bulb from the socket. Did the alternator ever charge while you have owned the tractor ? I'm thinking something isn't wired correctly on the ignition switch. Look at that diagram in post # 39. That is what you should have. One exception is the ammeter wire can go on the starter battery connection post. There is also an outside chance there is a faulty diode in the alternator allowing a parasitic draw on the battery.
Tinkerer, kind of embarrassed ..I don't think the alternator has ever charged because I always needed to recharge the old battery. replaced the battery and same problem. tried to figure out the wiring mess but nothing has worked and now I have a few fried wires....oops ! I need to start from scratch. Case diagram showns #40 RED Harness: 4 wires: yellow, red, pink, brown #41 BLACK harness: 4 wires: white, l/green, black, black w/white stripe. KEY switch terminals S-, B-, Y-, I-, A-, R-, without burning up the tractor and go from there I think.
Ok, like Vetech said, if you are going to use that alternator, you just run one wire from the post on the back of the alternator the battery hot, either at the starter where the battery cable goes, or to the hot post. That's why it's called a one wire alternator! It has to be a big wire, with nothing interrupting it. If you want to use the factory wiring diagram, you have to first buy an alternator or generator that works like the factory one.
If you put the VOLTMETER where the AMMETER was and used the same wires, it would not read volts correct, because it would be wired to measure AMPS. Test that voltmeter on your battery, I don't think you burned it out reading 12V, which is what it is meant to read (hint, it should read 12 V when hooked to your battery, and 12V when you install it correctly with the key "on" and 13-15V when the alternator is working). The alternator needs to be hooked directly to the battery or the big lug on the starter that connects to the battery. The voltmeter needs to be connected to the ignition side of the key switch, and GROUND in order to read voltage.
Ref: the diode... How old is the alternator ? Diodes (located in the alternator) are a 1 way check valve for electricity. After 10 years or more, diodes begin to decay and allow electrical leakage backwards. With your ignition off (key removed condition) the defective diode will allow slow voltage to leak backwards from the battery thru the alternator to ground causing the battery to be low voltage or to go dead. The fix is to replace the diode or the alternator. Replacing the alternator is the safest and simplest way to fix the problem. This is a problem on lawn mowers too. Simple to troubleshoot with a mutlimeter on the amp setting.
Welcome to HEF, Logue ! Excellent information about a slow drain on a battery. For anyone reading this that may not know, maybe you could post how to put the VOM on amp. setting into the circuit. Another way that I am familiar with is to check for a very low AC voltage at the 2 battery posts with the engine running.