Its my turn to ask for some advice. Today, I was doing some maintenance on my 1968 580CK with 188D engine. Its original and unmolested since new. I am the third owner and have had this one for close to 25 yrs. Last oil change was Dec 23/2014. This machine has been difficult to start and not run for some months. I checked the oil today and it was at least 2 inches up the stick. Dumped the oil and had a couple of quarts of water first. When we did the last change, there wasn't any and I did coolant check the same time. Not sure where the water is coming from as the rad is still full. Since I am now looking at more than a bit of work and probably a major overhaul if the block isn't cracked, what should I be doing to conserve the engine? Fill crankcase with diesel and flush or just let it drain whatever is in the bottom of the pan? I will need to pull it but don't need the project now, so it might have to wait a couple of months before I can get to it. Any suggestions are appreciated... Jess
First question is was the water in the pan, just water or was it coolant. I'm assuming you have antifreeze in the cooling system so it should be easy to tell the difference. If it is clear water I'd be checking things like exhaust system and maybe air intake along with oil filler tube or even valve cover to see how it could have got in there. If oil pan is easy to remove I'd be tempted to drop that and just have a quick look for rust. Assuming you are going to remove and rebuilt this engine I might then just fill back up with oil and a new filter and run it to warm it up enough to burn off any water still in it. Then if possible park it inside to prevent more water getting in. Covering with a plastic trap is not a good idea as this can cause condensation to build up especially in damp weather.
If you can get the pan off, do so and pressurize the cooling system with a hand pump. That will tell you if there is an internal leak. even if you pull the engine, pressure check it on the bench before doing the tear down. You will know the cause of failure. I noticed you are from the rainy side of the world. Check for an external source like rain through the stack.
Thanks for the suggestions. I am not fond of plastic tarps as anything under them will deteriorate from the ground up. I do have the exhaust stack flapper and never had an issue like this before. This afternoon, I'll fill the crankcase with diesel and drain to carry off any remaining water. Its probably a good idea to refill the oil and crank to get some circulated and displace whatever water may be in the system. Its not too difficult to remove the pan on the machine but will probably wait until I pull the engine because its coming out anyway. The cooling system pressure test will prove the liner seats anyway. Its unfortunate that this happened now since I was going to move it into the equipment shed but it may stay where it is now until this is resolved. If I can get it running, its just a short backwards move into the shed and a better place to work on this.
Not sure others here would agree with me but if you are only going to run it for the time to move it to the shed then park it till you are going to have time to pull and do a good rebuild, I'd be very tempted to just fill with diesel or maybe a 50/50 mix of diesel and oil move it to the shed and then drain the oil mixture and tie the key to the filler cap with a tag saying NO OIL! Do't get me wrong I would not suggest you take it out and dig a new foundation for a day with this in the engine but to move it a few feet it would not be a problem and would help flush it out so prevent any more damage till you do get the time to do an over haul.
I agree with Kshansen......do a 50/50 mix and crank her up, let her run for maybe 5 minutes, and get her into the shed. I would be tempted to remove the radiator cap so the water wont pressurize and maybe leak into the engine again. I also have a 1968 580CK. My oil pressure gauge reads way up around 80, and I wanted to drop the oil pan to inspect the oil pump screen, and just check things out down there. However, it looks like a big job to remove the pan.....I think the entire front end/wheels have to be removed also. Let me know how you plan to remove the oil pan.....maybe I will learn something. I posted pics of my oil pan and was asking the best way to remove it, but not sure if anyone replied.
Today, I drained the diesel that I had flooded the crankcase with yesterday and will try and start it tomorrow to move under cover. I have to go and get the pressure tester after the weekend and will see if that proves anything. Its possible that the head gasket is leaking but currently, nothing is coming into the pan. I suspect that will change once pressure is applied. I have the cast pan and the current plan is to lift off the steering cylinders and drop the frame they are attached to. At a glance, the rest should unbolt and with a floor jack in place, I can lower the pan. It will be a few days anyway but I will post my results and the removal procedure when I get to that. I have a chipper under repair and the truck in the shop, so this one will have to wait in the equipment shed until I catch up but I want to know what the issue is now. Jess
Jess.....Great.....if you are able, take some digital pics of the oil pan removal process so I will see what tricks you have up your sleeve. So, it sounds like you can leave the front axle in place, and only drop down that "A" brace under the oil pan? dwight
Jess, Did not notice if you said that the "water" in the oil was just water or indeed coolant from the cooling system. Makes a big difference on finding out where it came from.
I let the oil and water settle out and drained off what I could. A bit of a disappointment as it was difficult to see if the remainder had antifreeze or not. When I originally pulled the drain plug, I got a rush of cloudy fluid and then the rather dirty oil. The machine had only run a few hours since the December oil change. So far, just sitting, the coolant is the same level in the radiator. Once I get back with the pressure testor, I will see if I get anything leaking into the pan before I start dismantling. I would like to get it running again and move to a better location where it can stay until I have the time to do this properly. On the pan removal, I'll definitely take some pictures to post. I'm fairly certain that I can leave the axle and just float the steering cylinders out of the way and drop the A frame. Thinking back, I started to have issues with starting after I ran it out of fuel on a steep uphill climb. Usually, I remember to top off the tank when do this but forgot this time. I changed the filters, bled the fuel system and eventually it started up. Next time, being colder, it was difficult to get going and needed the heaters applied to get going. Seemed that it wasn't getting fuel at first but did run. While my grandson was visiting at Christmas we ran it up and changed the oil and oil filter. I started up and we ran it for an hour or so. A levels were fine. Since then, I have only tried to start it and had little success. It seemed to be slow cranking, even with a boost and recently a new battery. Its still slow to crank now and can only wonder if my problems are just accumulating since the fall. Regardless, this old machine will need a refresh and now is as a good time as any. I can't expect to go on forever. When its apart, I will also deal with other common issues and the usual leaks. I would rather wait until I finished the few digging jobs at hand, set off the hoe in the equipment shed and then take it into the shop. Just another adventure... Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. Jess
Jess, Im thinking that you sucked a good amount of water into the injectors the last time you were going up that steep grade and ran out of fuel....but you said you bled the lines, so I guess you have good fuel in the filters and injector pump. You mention that its now harder to crank than it should be. By any chance, have you removed the quick-disconnect line going to the backhoe and just laid it down instead of connecting it into the quick-disconnect up under the loader control handle? I came close to doing a major stupid mistake last month when I took off the backhoe from my 68 580CK. I just laid it down and did not connect it where it is supposed to go. When I went to crank the engine, she did not want to turn over at all.......which is a good thing, as I learned that I could have blown the hydraulic pump to smitherines if I had cranked up the engine, and there was no pressure relief on that line. I charged the battery for an hour and she still would not crank. I then tried jump starting with a fresh truck battery, and she still did not want to start. I then happened to think about that hydraulic line with the quick-disconnect on the end.....went back and connected it up under the loader handle, and the 580CK started right up and purrred like a kitten. Here is a pic of the hose I am talking about....it curls upward and goes over the Hi/Lo Shifter in the pic:
Good thought, but unfortunately its all still attached. I even checked to be sure that all the cylinders were equalized and controls in the centre position. Jess
There is a simple test to determine if it's just nasty dirty water or in fact coolant. Not sure this will appeal to some but I have used it more than once. What is this simple test you ask? Just put a drop or two on your tongue, for the control to this test stick a clean finger in the radiator and repeat test. Hard to mistake any coolant I've known! Helps to have a shot or two of adult beverage to clean the test instrument after the test!
Kshansen, that's a great method. I dumped the mess into the recycle pail so I won't be trying it this time. In retrospect, I should have just drawn off some with my suction pump instead of dumping the whole mess. There was a bunch of sludge and it all mixed nicely. After leaving it overnight, there wasn't a lot of separation so I gave up on that. I'm heading back to the house on Wednesday and will bring the pressure testor back with me. What I hadn't mentioned is this machine is at our cottage on a small island where access is by private boat. No running to the store and back. Heavy lifts are tug and barge. No Roadside Assistance, just me and you guys.... On a completely different approach, since this is a gravity fuel system, from the tank to the primary and secondary filters and on to the injection pump, would there be a possibility of fuel leaking into the crankcase over the couple of months it sat, and where would that fuel go, on top of the oil, or to the bottom. Unlikely but maybe the umbrellas seals are done and fuel contributed to the increase in liquid volume in the pan. If it was there, it would explain why I didn't get much water separation in the bucket. I didn't try to start it before I discovered the extra on the dipstick. I still want to get this thing running and into the shed, so will have to keep poking away at it before I start to tear anything apart. I did check the fuel return and its clear all the way to the tank, fuel filters are new and have good flow to the bleed screw on the pump. Should fire right up? Batteries are on charge and I may try again this evening... Jess
Justk.......and you are sure that the fuel line is "on", not off by accident? You are getting fuel flowing when you bleed the fuel filters? Never hurts to ask the simple questions. If you find it is just fuel getting into the oil, I guess you may want to always turn off the fuel tank valve after using each time. Send some pics of the old rig if you have time. Kshansen is quite the "taste-tester"....ha haaa. You would have loved the flavor of the foul 90 wt. oil that came from my 50 year old gear box......probably would have made your tounge turn green and glow in the dark. ha ha.
Fuel and oil will mix fine and won't add any sludge. Water will obviously go to the bottom and won't make sludge either. Glycol and oil together will make more sludge. The diesel would float on top of the oil, so if the thin stuff was on the bottom then it was water based. If there is any trace at all left in the pan you can do a sizzle test and see what it smells like. Use a piece of rag on a wire to scrape the bottom of the oil pan. Drip (or touch the rag) on a hot piece of steel, maybe 400 F, and see if it spatters or just smokes. No sizzle means no water. I'd think the sweet smell, or the hot diesel smell would be pretty clear, maybe try it at a lower heat if the smell isn't obvious.
90 wt. usually smells bad enough you would not need to do a taste test, just remember it's just like wine tasting experts do, spit it out don't swallow!
Thanks for all the suggestions. Today, I changed the oil filter and saved the water that ran out first. Its coolant by the taste test. I also tried Delmers method and got a positive on coolant there too. I had put the drain plug back and when I opened it, drained some more into a clean container. There was water beaded in the bottom. Because I want to move this thing before getting into this project, I refilled it with new clean oil and cranked it over. Using a running vehicle for boost, cranked it over several times to circulate the oil and hopefully start it. No luck, and although the fuel flows freely through new filters all the way to the bleed screw on the pump, there doesn't seem to be any fuel traces at the stack. I have other things that need my attention, so will not get back to this until late in the week. I will bring back my pressure test kit and see if I can borrow a bore scope. For all the interested parties, I will try to take some pics and post them as this develops. Once a rebuild is underway, I will do a new thread since the troubleshooting will be done. I already have a round-to-it repair list for some other things while its apart. I just hope its not another Saga like a few posted here previously... Jess
Jess.......Great, keep us updated with pics and whats happening. Sounds like the pump is not getting fuel to the cylinders. Someone may have already asked, but you sure you dont have the cut-off switch pulled out, thus stopping fuel flow to the injectors?
I'd have been happy to report that the fuel shut off was pulled out but, it was all the way in. I leave it in that position after reading somewhere about the valve sticking shut and causing problems. This afternoon, I drained the fuel tank and got a little water out. The flash light check into the bottom of the empty tank isn't pretty. Once we start in and strip off the sheet metal, the tank will be on the list for a boil out at my friendly local rad shop. I have to fix the sender anyway or at least the wiring going to it. The cab will have to come off to pull the tank so the list get longer yet. As its in 'field' condition right now, I will have to give it a good cleaning before any disassembly. Jess
Jess......Well, too bad it wasnt something as simple as the fuel shut-off......but as you dig into it, it may turn out to be something minor. Good luck with all the work......and zap us some pics of the process.
o rings on wet cylinder sleeves, rubber is probably rotten, leaking coolant in the oil, almost 50 year old o rings
I'm with Shawneecat... Happened on my 207D case which is the same block. Could also be a rotted cup/freeze plug in the head. There are 3? right down the middle that separate the coolant inside the head and the oil on the rocker arm assembly. Also happened on the same engine as I am just that lucky.
Another problem with wet cylinder sleeves is that they get electrolysis pinholes, especially if run with poor coolant. I have seen this much more often than o-ring leaks. It will be easy to see pressurized with the pan off. If the piston is down, it will be leaking between piston and cylinder. If it's up, you'll see the stream.
When you try to start it again, drain the coolant from the bottom of the oil pan. Just remove or loosen the plug long enough to let the coolant out. This may save you a lot of money in bearing and crankshaft work.
Also if possible turn engine over by hand a couple turns to be sure there is no water above the pistons. Water above pistons can cause major problems like bent rods. If you can not turn by hand easy bump the starter a little at a time till it has turned a couple revolutions. Do this with shut down engaged also if possible.