This tractor would start easily with weak battery whether cold or hot after redoing the heads. While moving to re-attached backhoe front wheel lugs popped and wheel came off crashing to concrete. Motor kept running fine but after turning it off it would not restart after replacing front end/hubs - unless we used ether. Thought something to do with fuel so rebuilt fuel pump - no change: had it rebuilt again professionally - no change; replaced fuel filters and ensured all fuel lines open - no change; Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad? Started with ether - individually loosen all injector fuel lines and motor ran rough each time until tightened injector. Adjusted fuel pump timing for best running. Shut off and still won't restart when warm even with ether (or a propane blow torch), but will after cold with ether. Impact of wheel coming off only change we know between easy start and now hard start. After starting problem appeared we did have generator rebuilt and got new regulator. We are stymied - don't know what else to check? Anyone know what the compression is supposed to be when cold cranking starter? Other suggestions? Have video of it running if that would help.
I think if compression was that bad it wouldn't run at all. Engine at 200 RPM, is this cranking speed?
We have no way to test compression when motor running. We got reading 260-275 with fuel disconnected and turning motor over with starter. Do you know what the compression should be when testing without running, just turning over with starter?
Your post is kind of confusing. I'm wondering if the compression needs to be 400 PSI at 200 RPM cranking speed?
We don’t have a way or the equipment to actually test the compression while the motor is running! We can test compression by pulling an injector, disconnecting the fuel lines and get a compression for each cylinder while turning motor over and reading the PSI for each cylinder without the motor starting - just compression generated by the starter turning the motor over.
I think you're missing what I'm asking. Does the starter crank the engine at 200 RPM? I think a compression test is usually done with all injectors removed and each individual cylinder is tested 1 at a time. Having 3 injectors still in place is going to slow down the cranking speed. Having all the injectors removed will give the fastest cranking speed. Below is the confusing part. If the engine is only turning at say 100 RPM the compression readings could be lower than cranking at 200 RPM. "Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad?"
That's low compression, but they're close to each other, that's more important than the absolute pressure. You're doing the compression test right as far as I can see. How many compression cycles does it take to reach the 260PSI? Having all injectors out will help the number as Dave said. This is a strange one, you didn't knock the rings into the oil pan by dropping one hub 8". Any chance the muffler collapsed inside? Does the exhaust blow any smoke when trying to start? any visible fuel/mist/fog? does it blow any dark smoke? does it sound smooth cranking? running smooth when it does start? have you checked the valve action? long shot, but it's easy to pull the valve cover off and check the tappet clearances. The video could help.
Thanks for pushing back. My son did the testing and I was only partly correct and he had never done this before. The testing was done when motor was cold. he removed 3 injectors, left 4th in place and then tested the first 3 cylinders (so only 2 cylinders had open injector holes). He then removed last injector and repeated test, so on that one he had three open injector holes. No significant differences in all four readings. The battery is new and freshly charged. Ran starter 2-3 seconds like normal to start - turned over fast so maybe that was the 200rpm book talks about.
New exhaust and it does blow some smoke when trying to start - no dark smoke - sounds smooth when cranking - seems to run good when do get started (improved when readjusted fuel pump timing). You might have something on valves according to my son who had the head rebuild and adjusted valves (and it started right up - before wheel crash) - but he's thinking maybe valves need to be readjusted although running time after new heads was less than 30 minutes total. Thanks so much for all these good questions/advice.
PS I'm old and new at this forum stuff - I couldn't find the video link your posted - can you just email it to me at [email protected] or text to 360-999-8595, or teach this old dog how to find the link - thanks again
You mentioned you have a video of it trying to start, that could help. I have no idea what could do this... completely shooting in the dark. I don't think it's going to be compression, although a collapsed suction/ air intake hose if there is one, could cause low compression. Seems to be blowing some fuel out the exhaust, but I'd still look at the intake, exhaust, injection pump, and valve action cause it's easy. Or post the video of it trying to start.
Check the fuel shut off arm on the injection pump. The cable or arm on the pump may have been knocked goofy from the jolt when the machine dropped.
Good thinkin Tinkerer.!!! Make sure the s/o lever goes from stop screw to stop screw.!! Do u know how to do a WET compression test.?? Get a good dry reading.. NOW add some oil to the cyl. thru the inj hole. U need to add enough to cover the piston & flow around to the rings.. When I do it, I use a thumb operated oil can & put about 5 pumps in the cyl. Then do the compression test again.. if it jumps real hi, u got ring problems.. which wouldn’t surprise me since u been bottle feeding it..
1 more thing, have u removed the return connector n tried to start it.? TRY THAT.. remove ALL the fittings from the top cover of the inj pump.. fuel WILL come out so be prepared for that.. It’ll only take a few seconds for u to tell if it works or not.. I think that return line will flow fuel out of the tank so have someone hold their thumb over the end of it or get a cap.. good luck
That was our first suspicion that lead to complete rebuild of fuel pump - so that potential problem should be eliminated + plus it runs fine when get started.
We have checked the fuel return line all the way to the tank so know that is not plugged. will share above with son in case he hasn't already tried this.
trying to upload video of it running - new technology for me
Ken; You cannot load a video directly onto this site. It has to be put on a site like YouTube, then you would copy and paste the url of it here.
If you are near Olympia, Washington you are about 100 feet above sea level. According to the the service manual image I posted, you are about 200 psi lacking in compression. Its gonna need ether to start. IMHO.
We're missing an important part of this story, we just don't know what it is. How long did the tractor sit after the incident before it was started again? what else happened? before, during or since?
Update on our tractor after today's work. Rechecked, & beefed up battery/battery cable & connections to ensure strong starter - no change as still will not start cold (60 degrees) until/unless add ether. Seems to run fine - will try to post link to YouTube tried to learn today. After warming up shut off and checked/slight adjustments to valves. Oil on all lifters but seems less that novice would expect - although Oil pressure gauge registers high. Then tried to restart without success and chose not to use ether again as wanted to redo last weeks compression tests based on info from you all. Removed all injectors and checked compression: all cylinders between 260-280 PSI. Then put prox 1/4 cup motor oil in each cylinder before retesting compression on all cylinders: All cylinders now between 350-370 seemingly confirming need for new rings/sleeve/etc???? (although this still doesn't explain why started/ran fine before front wheel popped off???? Another potential clue(??): earlier when taking starter off noticed hydraulic fluid in Bell Housing don't know if that's normal/ok - if something major maybe we don't want to throw another $1,000 at rebuilding motor? Thoughts? Finally, We assume if putting in new rings probably should do the cylinder sleeves also? Does this take special tool of some kind; if so is this affordable to buy for single job or can normally rent somewhere. Recall that when replacing head (had to clean out/hone two cylinders full of water when first got the "free" backhoe) noticed the sleeves sticking up a little above block - presume that normal?
Adding oil to the cylinders also reduces the volume of the combustion chamber and will increase your compression readings. The add oil and see if the numbers rise is an age old diagnostic method. When you have a large combustion chamber it can help but with small chambers the oil will always give you a higher reading even in a perfect engine. Your best bet is to perform a cylinder leakdown test. If you buy a gauge it might be marked with Red, Yellow Green ranges in addition to the actual percent of leakage. These zone are nuts. "Low" allows up to 40% leakage, "Moderate" is up to 70%. If you have 40% leakage you have a worn engine or a major problem. If you are about 10% or so you are good. Much like compression the variation also tell a story. If you have high leakage listen for where the air is leaking from. Make sure you buy one that uses 100psi to pressure test with. Some use only 40psi and I can tell you from experience they will not find leaks that 100psi will. You can also look inside using a borescope. You can buy them cheap from eBay or Amazon and they pair via Bluetooth to a phone.
A sleeve puller is nice. Any machine shop can make one. Just take a new sleeve to them. I only had one made and that was many years ago. A brass drift pin applied to the bottom of the sleeve in the block will drive them out with a few hammer taps. Some Case engines have wet bell housings and require a sealed starting motor.
It's hard to tell what's wrong with an engine from a video of one that's running perfectly??? You have it running fine, does it operate fine? have adequate power? have you checked the blowby when it's nice and hot? Is it using oil? if it's not using oil and not blowing oil splatters out the blowby tube, I wouldn't even think about doing anything internal. compression doesn't typically go down evenly, you'll usually see one or two that are way below spec, and a few barely hanging on if the engine is old and dying. You could post that same angle video of the engine trying to start it when it won't. A warm afternoon when it absolutely should start easy, battery warm, engine warm. How long did the tractor sit after the incident before it was started again? what else happened? before, during or since?
We got this tractor after it had sat not running for 10 years with exhaust pipe open to rain. after cleaning/honing out two cylinders and having head rebuilt & new injectors is would start and run fine but lots of other issues so only ran it few minutes - including when front wheel popped off and axle hit payment. Sat for 1-2 weeks to get wheel hub replaced and then wouldn't start like before - nothing else happened - so then went through lots of $ & time working the fuel pump/lines to ensure no problem there - but still no change in starting problem. I'll attach another video of driving it short distance to get inside the barn - don't have one of trying to start but know that get a little smoke out of exhaust when trying. Answers to your questions: running fine and has adequate power as near as can tell. Never got it real hot, or check blowby (nothing obvious) and not ran enough to know about oil use.
That's a little bit of important information. Anything is possible and you could need a rebuild? I'd use it a while and see what shakes out before fixing it one major component at a time.
taking more backhoe hoses in today for replacement - each time get it started another hose breaks. Hindsight says should have bought all new hoses at beginning - penny wise pound foolish. Maybe if have to cut losses having backhoe in good working order might have more value. Also know we have some leaking cylinders and no brakes for some reason so maybe go do some digging before diving into motor further is a good idea.
Have u tried advancing the pump timing a smidge.?? Make a scratch mark on the inj pump and block as a starting point.. Now loosen the pump mounting nuts & turn the pump, (top cover away from the engine) about a dimes width & tighten back down.. That might help.. Good luck..
Yes we have adjusted timing of fuel pump - running smoothest at current setting. Will try to upload video of valves working as cranking with starter.
Front valves also seem to be working right
Did a blowby test today after removing rocker arms so all valves supposed to be closed. Had prox 100 PSI air supply. All four cylinders had similar air flow out of crankcase. Cylinder #1 & #2 additionally had a very slight/little airflow out of intake valves. As reminder compression test was 260-280 dry and 350-370 after putting oil on top of cylinders. Prior to having the heads rebuilt we had to clean/hone Cylinder #1 & #2 because they had filled with water before we got the tractor – is that a missing clue? Still doesn’t seem to explain why easy to start before wheel popped off dropping hub to cement – didn’t die and thereafter only start when cold, AND with ether. Definitely rings????
Perhaps something was knocked outa whack in the injection pump. pumpguysc may have thoughts on that. I know nothing about working on them, but I wouldn't rule out that possibility in the pump. I ran 3 or 4 different Caterpillar dozers that got to where they would need ether to start cold or hot. The mechanics would take the ip off and send it somewhere (?) It would be reinstalled and no more ether was needed.
Our original thinking was also about fuel pump as you suggest however after two rebuilds ($700) and checking all lines we believe that potential issue is not the problem. Afraid will replace sleeves,rings, & pistons only to determine we “fixed” something else - that wasn’t the problem but don’t know what else to try first??? hard to imagine rings or debris broke loose on all cylinders when wheel fell off but maybe???
I can’t think of anything that would cause this problem other than a pinched line or stuck/sticking metering valve.. u can tell if it’s a mv by removing the top cover & pushing the mv w your finger.. it should return under its own power after u stroke it.. Personally I don’t like those compression readings..
you do have the intake manifold open to the atmosphere, right? you said it leaked out the intake. Those cranking clips sound like there's very little resistance, just an even whine, it should go rrrRRrrrRRrrrRR... nothing makes any sense why it would start before dropping and not after. How long did it sit between starting and not starting? have you tried fresh fuel?
Has the the fuel injectors been tested by a professional ?
The fuel pump was professionally rebuilt and tested. After reinstalling we tested fuel delivery at each injector by loosening connections to confirm fuel delivery as cranking. I don’t know if this covers the metering valve thought above? - my son likely understands your suggestion. Yes we have hose off intake manifold we doing last blow by test. when we got tractor a year ago it had some fuel in tank - we didn’t drain old out but did add 5 gallons fresh - but did check all lines, drained bottom bowl and replace fuel filters. Even though seems to run well after starting could a mix of old and fresh fuel be potential starting problem? Easy enough to do before diving into ring replacements if you think real chance that could be issue?
The spray pattern of the fuel injectors is critical for easy starting. Any time an injector pump is rebuilt the injectors should be tested or replaced. A shop not far from me tests them for free. Unless the old fuel was contaminated with algae or some kind of crap you should be OK mixing the new stuff in.
I think checking the injectors and new fuel are the only potentially logical things left to check. If you mixed fresh fuel with old fuel, it could start well for a month. It could also age prematurely because it's been innoculated with stale fuel. Stale fuel can make starting difficult in marginal conditions. The injectors being opened up exposes them to contamination, old fuel could gunk them up, etc. The compression does seem to be the main problem, these are secondary, but if it runs acceptably, then I'd run it at least to find out what the machine needs in addition to rings/pistons/sleeves. You may never need to rebuild it if it runs good enough. It runs fine, so the metering valve is functioning eventually, when you shut it off, push the shut off rod back in after the engine is off, then it will be in position to start and won't stick off. And run fresh fuel.
I know the rebuilt pump was professionally tested as part of $700+ rebuild. Are you suggesting the new injectors (with head rebuild that ended with still easy start - until wheel incident) is a separate test needed?
Thanks for more detailed explanation- that potentially ties all issues together so worth following before diving into motor.
Even with new injectors, get them tested, it's easy if you have them out already, or easy to get out, not stuck like the first time. You can remove two and hook them back up out pointing away from the engine to observe the spray pattern easy enough. Don't bend the line, loosen the other end and rotate.
We had all four injectors tested: three were perfect; one was mostly plugged and drippy. Not fixable so ordered replacement - mechanic didn’t think one plugged injector would cause new starting problems. Also drained fuel tank so will eliminate that potential issue for when get new injector. If still not starting we don’t see option other than rings - just hard to imagine crash when wheel popped off causing big problem in rings.
Have you observed the spray pattern of the all the injectors since you bought the new one (injector) ? I find it hard to believe the crash had any effect on the piston ring ?
I did not see the spray pattern myself but the long time tractor mechanic that tested the injectors specifically said “thE spray pattern, pop off pressure, and holding was fine On three of the four injectors.“ We also doubt rings are problem but have run out of our ideas and those from this helpful forum. Ken
We have now flushed the fuel tank, added fresh fuel, and replaced the one injector that tested bad - but still no start without using ether when cold. After running while and shut off it won't restart (like it did before wheel broke off), even if using propane torch (afraid to try ether when warm - didn't work when tried month ago). Not seeing any other options other than throwing in away or throwing more money at it, we've ordered in frame kit to replace sleeves, pistons, rings, bearings. :-((
Here’s hoping for the best.!!! Good Luck..
Update after replacing cylinders, sleeves, bearings, & rebuilding starter. Damn thing still won't start: cranks really good with rebuilt starter/new battery; tried to fire/start once with ether after neither pre-heat or propane torch to intake manifold in room about 45 degree's. Looks like unspent fuel vapor from exhaust. Loosened fuel lines to ensure fuel flow to injectors and fuel return line - all good (flowing, not squirting)(prior to rebuild when running and check fuel lines ahead of injectors fuel would squirt when loosen line). Rechecked valves all at .014 per book. As reminder, prior to rebuild it would only start with ether, and then only when cold - seemed to run smooth - compression all even but low so rebuild motor seemed only option left. Also as reminder it used to start fine before wheel lugs popped and one hub (now replaced) crashed to ground. We didn't move/adjust the fuel pump (also rebuilt & new injectors) while rebuilding the motor. We didn't take timing gear cover off to examine that for damage cause it ran fine (after getting started) - didn't think that could be issue but now wondering because that's only thing we haven't explored - starting to think just have very expensive boat anchor??? Appreciate any thoughts for the experts out there.
I'm no expert, but I wish you would have removed the camshaft and replaced the bearings. If you had you would have been able to examine and measure the lobes on it. There is an outside chance it is actually broken. I would suggest that you remove the injector pump and UPS it to thepumpguysc. It will be the best thing IMHO you can do now. I base that on the fact you had to use ether before the crash.
I have to ask if you have checked the timing marks on the gears, and flywheel? I know there is some movement in the pump drive shaft that possibly could have allowed the gears to skip throwing your timing off. Timing off would cause hard/ no start. You said new injectors, were they tested for correct pop off pressure? I have 4 brand new injectors I just tested tonight and they were supposed to be the right part # which would pop at ~2800psi. Mine brand new ones were all over the place. 1st one was 3100psi, 2nd 3500 psi, etc.. I had to adjust them all and the old injector I took out only would squirt a stream so no wonder that cylinder ran funny
Update on our progress/lack thereof this weekend - hopefully some more clues for you experts: Sure we got the timing all done correctly this time: adjusted valves at TDC on compression; turned flywheel to TDC on exhaust and adjusted rest of valves; moved flywheel to 8 degree's BTDC and checked fuel pump which was aligned; turned flywheel 2 full rotations and rechecked fuel pump was still aligned; made sure fuel lines to injectors putting out fuel; connected to injectors; heated intake manifold; strong battery cranking that showed fuel vapor from exhaust pipe BUT NOT FIRING AT ALL. All valves opening/closing as cranking. Decided to recheck compression (hadn't done after installing new cylinders & Sleeves). Got 50# on #1 and 300# on 2-4. rechecked #1, got same reading - added some oil top of cylinder and got 90-100#. As reminder we got 260-275 # all 4 before replacing cylinders - thinking that was warm motor but not remembering for sure. Today's readings all on cold motor - specs call for 400 PSI at sea level which fits Olympia on warm motor - don't find info on what new cylinders should be on cold motor? We did not disassemble piston/sleeve's to check for opposing ring gaps - assumed done right at factory - instructions didn't say anything about checking for proper ring gap opposite alignments but wondering if this is our only problem? Seems it should start/fire with 3 new pistons/sleeves but maybe not. What the hell are we missing? Exasperated, Ken Miller 360-999-8595
Head gasket or sleeve issue?
PS - tried something else recommended by friend before we quit for the weekend - maybe forever We put a turkey baster full of oil in each cylinder (thought needed enough to over flow cup on top of cylinder). Then did pressure tests again. ALL cylinders test at 650-700 PSI compared to book spec of 400. #1 cylinder that had very low pressure above - took longer but did get up to same (650) PSI. Thinking this was answer, reconnected fuel lines making sure fuel coming out of lines at injector before connecting. Heated the intake manifold with torch. STILL DIDN'T FIRE at all - this time didn't even notice any fuel vapors coming out of exhaust pipe (maybe too much oil in cylinders???). My son learned a lot about diesels and I learned a lot about how much my son loves me to come work on this tractor almost every weekend but something else is wrong that we aren't getting. Thanks again for any other advice. Ken
I edited your post to what puzzles me. How did you install the new pistons onto the connecting rods without "disassembling" the pistons and sleeves ? Ring gaps and the gap orientation to the other rings on the piston should have been checked before the piston & rod assembly was put in the sleeve. Always, no exceptions. Remove the injector on #1 cylinder, put the cylinder at TDC. Then apply air into it and listen for where the air escaping. Remove the oil filler cap. the air most likely is going into the crankcase. Unless you have a pooched valve or the adjustment of it.
The pistons and sleeves came as an assembled kit so just had to get the old out and slide/drive new sleeves (& pistons in). Based on about test after adding oil and #1 PSI went way up - should I still do that test? Please clarify "pooched valve" or "the adjustment of it". We did follow all the book steps to adjust all valves (half at TDC on Compression & other half at TDC on Exhaust). Starting and running fine before crash explained in early posts - then only start when cold and with ether - had fuel pump rebuilt in Seattle - still no change - replaced all sleeves/pistons -went in tight but w/o problem - new head gasket, bolts all tightened per book sequence and double checked - still no change except now can't get to start at all and don't want to use ether on new pistons. Valves all open/close normally as far as can tell so cam can't be broken we don't think. Unless missing something else wondering if crash could have cause cam/timing gear to jump tooth - but not finding anything think that possible - and looks like lot of work to check that out just to eliminate rare possibility(?) because don't now what else to do. Thanks for all your clarifications/ thoughts. Ken
Not sure what pouring all that oil in the cylinders was trying to accomplish. If cylinder 1 is at 50 psi you have a major problem. Perform a cylinder leakage test and listen for where the air goes. It should still start with one dead cylinder. Are you sure you have fuel getting in the cylinders?
A pooched valve --> Stem bent, not unusual in high hour engines. I saw a lot of valve heads wobble when they were in a Sioux valve machine for grinding them. A notch burnt in the valve face. Also it could have a notch or low area in the circumference of valve seat thus allowing a loss of compression. A turkey baster of oil added to the cylinders would produce worthless information. Actually it could cause a connecting rod to bend from a hydro-lock situation.
Concluding remarks to the tractor problem thread: With the very excellent (phone & then personal help) advice from "Blue Ox" we finally solved the starting problem we had before and after replacing all the cylinders. As reminder: After the crash last summer, we broke something loose in the fuel pump. We rightly then had the fuel pump rebuilt, flushed all fuel lines, & rechecked the injectors but still found it would only start when cold and with ether; running out of ideas we then replaced all cylinders (250-265 PSI) to get higher compression thinking that might be the problem; after replacing cylinders we couldn't get motor to fire/start at all despite checking and rechecking the timing, re-adjusting valves, and ensuring fuel getting to injectors. With the superior help from "Blue Ox" we ensured getting ALL the air out of the fuel lines by loosening all 4 fuel lines at the injector and cranking motor for a very long time (presumably getting ALL the air out of the pump/lines); tightened the connectors; and the engine started (struggled initially but easily thereafter). YEAH!!!!! After running a few minutes a secondary problem occurred we likely wouldn't have solved w/o the diagnostic skills/experience of the "Blue Ox". The motor would just shut down suddenly, like out of fuel but more sudden - and would restart easily - and stop again. Rechecked fuel flow from tank. Then noticed slight puff of black smoke just as motor quit. At first feared potential new piston locking. One time tractor seemed to shudder just a little so rechecked hydraulic fluids levels and found shuttle clutch/transmission was low (Duh after replacing cylinders) - after which motor continued to restart easily and run until shutting it off. After couple hours professional help from retired mechanic we met on this website we were all doing the HAPPY DANCE!! THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR ADVICE OVER LAST SEVERAL MONTHS - SPECIAL THANKS TO THE BLUE OX - A VERY SPECIAL MAN IN MANY WAYS.