Hi all, recently I attempted to flush the coolant system in my 1979 CASE 580C as bet I could. I drained the coolant out of the valve on the engine block, flushed system with garden hose in radiator cap, (water successfully pouring out of open engine drain) then closed the block drain and attempted to refill with 5 gallons of 50/50 mix of coolant. But it only accepted approx 2.5 gallons before it was full at the radiator cap. So I am trying to figure out why this may be... Important Note: I did not drain the radiator itself because I could not locate any valve or drains or petcocks at the lowest point of the radiator. I was told that it might be that it only accepted 2.5 gallons because the thermostat was closed, and that after running machine until it gets hot, the thermostat would open up and it would accept more fluid. However I have since done this, and every time I open radiator cap to check the coolant level is still topped off. So now I am paranoid that the coolant may not be cycling properly, but I don't know how to test this or tell. Can anyone shed any light on this ? And also can anyone explain why she only accepted approx half of the total coolant capacity yet it shows full at the radiator cap ? I'm afraid to run the machine now because the temp gauges have never worked and previously I just assumed she was fine if the coolant level looked good.. But now I'm worried that the coolant might not be cycling properly, and I definitely want to fix that before overheating the engine. I appreciate any advice or tips or help that anyone may suggest for me troubleshooting this. Thank you!
If it was supposed to take 5 gallons but you only added 2.5 gallons of 50/50, then you have 5 gallons of 25% coolant/water mix. test it to confirm. You could have added 2.5 gal of concentrate, now you have to do the math of how much 25% you have to drain to add concentrate to get about 50/50, depending on your local temp. There was water in the radiator that didn't drain, if you've used it a couple times and the coolant stays full, you're not going to need to add any more unless it leaks.
Thanks Delmer. I guess my main concern was that the thermostat might not be functioning. Is there a simple way to test that or determine if it is working ? Also, just to clarify, I premixed equal parts distilled water with equal parts antifreeze concentrate in a bucket, then added it to radiator cap. That's what I mean when I say 50/50. But if I'm understanding your response properly, we are on the same page I think.. Are you saying that somehow 2.5 gallons of water was trapped in machine and did not drain ? Even though I had the block drain removed ? I appreciate your help here!
If you couldn't find the radiator drain, remove the lower hose from it. Operator and service manuals have everything you will need to know.
Thanks Tinkerer. How about checking to see if the thermostat functions? Is there any way of determining that ?
Put it in a pot of water and heat it up until it opens. Check the water temp when it just begins to open. I never have checked an old one myself. I just replace them with the proper opening temp. That temperature is usually stamped on the thermostat.
My temp guage in cluster never worked either. Simple mechanical guage from NAPA or wally world bolted to the side of dash works just peachy. Can do the same with oil pressure and volts.
Yes, we're on the same page. It's hard to believe there was that much water still in the system, but if you only got 2.5 gallons in, then it must have been. 5 gallons is what it's supposed to take, and typical for a tractor like this. Testing the concentration will confirm. To check the thermostat operation without removing it, just go to work and the radiator will get hot eventually, that means the thermostat is opening. Get a non contact thermometer and check the engine temp, it should get up to 160 or so, and not get any hotter, or cool off below that temp if you let it idle at low speed cold temps either. Maybe if it's zero and it idles an hour it will drop temp, but it should stay steady for five minutes at near freezing temps. Newer stuff would have a 180 or even 195 thermostat, so don't be surprised if the temp is 180 instead of 160.
Thanks Stinky & thanks Delmer. Really appreciate all the advice, tips, and explanations. I'll run some of these tests on it, and keep giving her some love.
One question and a comment or two . . . when you drained the system, how much came out? You said there was no drain on the radiator, how low is the lower hose outlet, and what is that level in relation to the block drain you used? I wouldn't be afraid to run it at an idle, but I would certainly want to get a temp gauge of some sort in there, it would help with this issue, but you need a temp gauge on an engine. Get a infrared thermometer such as this: Klein Tools Digital Infrared Thermometer, Dual Laser IR5 - The Home Depot Klein Tools IR5 is a professional dual-laser targeting infrared thermometer, offering a wide measurement range, a tight 12:1 distance-to-spot ratio, dual targeting lasers, and several calculation modes www.homedepot.com This thread might be helpful: Troubleshooting with a temp gun? Twice now a temp gun has bit me in the ass leading me to the wrong diagnosis. Once I thought I had a BO temp sensor on an air compressor and I missed the room temperature cooler line. Another time I though I had a bad temp gauge on a diesel pump, turns out it was actually running hot. What are... HeavyEquipmentForums
Acoals, good question. Hard to quantify how much came out because I didn't have the catch bucket in the right place when I opened the drain. That said - I would guess 3-3.5 gal maybe. I believe the lower radiator hose is lower than the block drain.. and that's probably where the 2 gallons is sitting that still needs to be flushed and replaced. I definitely agree with you about a temperature gauge on the engine. It's something that's bothered me since I've had the machine. I've made sure to take care of everything else that I possibly could, but I definitely don't want to overheat anything. Are you able to tell me where on the engine I'm supposed to connect the wire of the thermometer?
The water temperature gauge sending unit (switch) is on the RH side of the engine head. At the rear of it. Very close to the bottom of the intake manifold. It prolly (should) have a wire on it
Pull the lower rad hose to dump the bottom half of the radiator. I don't have specific knowledge of your machine to answer the coolant temp probe question. I would look around and find something that looks like a temperature probe in the water jacket somewhere, probably in or near the thermostat housing.
It's very easy for the engine block to get air locked and not accept coolant. The advice you were given about the thermostat opening to burp the air out is true, but it may overheat some before that happens. Since there is mostly air in the engine, the thermostat doesn't open with hot air it opens with hot water. Some engines are worse than others in this respect. Keep and eye on it and don't let it get too hot till the thermostat does finally open.
Thanks all. Attaching 2 pics I just took. One of left side, one of right side. Both showing what I would believe to be thermometers.. If anyone can tell me which one is actually the thermometer it would be much appreciated.
The one under the fuel filters is the oil pressure sender. The one under the intake is the water temperature sender.
What an awesome forum! Thanks!! So what is the one that my index finger is pointing two, the one that's mounted on the intake manifold?
It is the sending unit for the air restriction indicator. I posted earlier that the temp. sending unit would prolly have a wire on it. It does in your photo. You can prolly get the gauge in the dash to work if you find why it may not be getting 12v power to it.
Ok. I was thinking maybe just installing a brand new temperature gauge, wire, and thermometer (sending unit).. will have to see what makes the most sense
I guess I could troubleshoot the electric of what is existing and see if I can get it to work. Just figured it might be quicker and easier to replace with brand new, just for that gauge, if I'm going to do all that troubleshooting.
Chances are the contacts in the dash cluster harness plug may be damaged as well. Very thin metal contacts in the dash plug were shot in mine and another 580C that I worked on. In both cases replaced the sender/switch with the wire attached indicated by your pinky finger with a mechanical guage/sender that threads into the same hole. You may have to use a brass bushing/fitting to adapt new hardwired sensor to hole in block. In both cases fished the end that screws into the block down through the hole at the bottom of firewall just above the floor where the main dash harness goes through and don't install the adapter on the end that's being fished through (if needed) until through the hole. Most mechanical senders have enough length for this routing,as stated earlier napa, auto zone, walmart carry these setups. Remember that when you remove the sender from the block there's coolant behind it so you get to practice your draining and filling again, test the juice from that hole when it comes out, will get an idea of concentration there. Don't know if you're up to the task, but if you remove the 2 oval covers in top of the dash you can remove the plug from the back dash cluster to inspect the (tabs) where the connector plugs in, but if you,re not careful you could damage further. Should have asked before, do you have any functional guages in the dash at all?
You will lose very little coolant if you loosen the radiator cap and release any pressure. Then tighten it back down and then r&r the sending unit. If you have an eBay account there is a good deal on aftermarket gauges there. ------> eB ay <-------
The electric gauge works by the ignition switch supplying 12 v to the gauge, the gauge runs that through a coil and to the sender, the sender varies resistance based on temp, and that varying resistance changes the amps through the coil and the position of the needle that indicates temp. The gauge needs 12V or nothing will work, once you have that, you can take that wire off the sender and connect it to ground, and the gauge should go to full HOT, remove the wire and it should go to full cold, that shows the gauge is working. Then if it still doesn't work, you can check the sender ohms at different temps. Sometimes it's nice to have oil pressure and fuel gauges working also, so the electrical is worth fixing.
I have never messed with the sending units on a backhoe, but I am going to guess they work the same as a car or truck. That single wire going to the sending unit is ground for the gauge. The sending unit varies the ground by varying it's resistance according to the temp or the pressure. What you can do on a car or truck is turn the ignition on but do not start the engine. You can then get someone to watch the gauge as you take the wire off the sending unit and let it hang in the air, and then take the wire and ground it to a good ground. With the wire hanging in the air, the gauge should swing full scale hot or cold. Then when you ground the wire the gauge should swing full scale the opposite way. If this test works, you know the gauge and the wire to the sending unit are good, and the sending unit is bad. Be careful if you change the sending unit with the sealer on the threads. The sending unit needs a good ground through the threads to work properly. Too much thread tape or sealer and interfere with the grounding of the sending unit. P.S. I just read Delmer's post above, he said the same thing I did already. Sorry about that, I need to read the previous posts more carefully.
You have an upper and lower radiator hose, when your thermostat opens both houses will get hot To speed up the process, put the machine into pressure relief (hydraulic) with high engine rpm for about 15-20 minutes
Thanks for all the info guys. Delmer, no, none of the gauges work. I can take more pictures tomorrow or this weekend of the entire setup, but none of the gauges work. And I agree with everyone here who has said it would be nice to have working gauges. Would give me a great piece of mind. Over this past year I have replaced the battery with a brand new Yellowtop, replaced the starter (because I accidentally burned up the one that came with machine), tested the alternator and it works fine (was refurbished not too long ago). And I did replace 1 or 2 wires when I was replacing the starter.. And I already bought some new wires. I am by no means an electrician... But I definitely want to get the gauges working.. (especially if the existing dash gauge cluster still works..!!!). I hate when the machine is down, because I've always got work around the house to do with it.. But I sure do feel great and accomplished when I repair, replace, or fix something on it. I guess my starting point for troubleshooting the gauges would be to take off the 'dashboard' and examine the wiring behind it ? Are we allowed to give out phone #s on here ?
I would advise you to never post your phone number or email address on any public forum. Send me your email address in a private message (PM) and I can send you a download link to the 580C service manual. It has the electrical schematic in it.
If for now I just wanted to be able to see the temp of my engine water, could I just replace with this, and mount the gauge to my dash ? Would the item in the picture have everything I need to do that ? Thanks
Yes you can. A generic one is prolly cheaper in an auto parts store. And then maybe not.
Ok, thank you Tinkerer. Good to know.
I'll PM you tomorrow or weekend, I'm doing this from my phone and don't see the PM option.
other options to check the temp are a meat thermometer taped to a part of the head, or even stuck in the heater hose, or a non contact thermometer.
Thanks Delmer. I will feel much better being able to monitor the temp while I am operating the machine. I ordered that Case gauge with 84" lead last night. Figure for $40 it's worth having the piece of mind and saving my engine.. until I find the time to refurbish and rewire the rest of the instrument board. I figure with brand new battery that my 12V system should be fine, so don't really need a gauge for that right now.. And I use the stick to measure fuel, and keep it above half tank. I just changed engine oil, and it doesn't leak. So my main concern is operating temp. If the gauge shows me she is running hot, I suppose I will start by replacing the thermostat...
Your non-functioning gauge problem may be as simple as a defective ignition switch. Or a loose plug (junction) in the wire harness.
Not a good idea..........unless you want guys like me giving telemarketers your phone number LOL
Ok. I'll take a few pictures of the setup when I have a chance
Your non functioning guages may be due to a faulty circuit breaker behind the dash that powers the dash harness. Consult the afore offered manual wiring diagrams to diagnose your issue.
Thanks Stinky, will do. Here is an update with pictures. I took a laser thermometer yesterday after using the machine and the hydraulics for about 20 mins. The block read about 170F, the lower radiator hose read 120F, and the upper read 125F. I took readings again after another 30 mins of use, and the block was around 175/180F, the lower radiator hose was at 120F, and the upper was at 130F. The temps themselves gave me reassurance that I'm not hurting the machine by operating. That said - do the temps at the radiator hoses make sense to you guys ? Do you think my thermostat is working or no ?
Have a a bigger issue going on now - yesterday while working it, the machine had a lot of 'power loss' while trying to go uphill. I'm going to start a separate thread for it so that this thread can stay on topic for anyone doing future searches.
I'm not sure you're close enough to get an accurate reading. Any exhaust manifold in the "view" of the thermometer will throw the average way off. If you take a temp of the block only, and it's 180 or less after working 50 minutes, then you're great. the hoses won't read the inside temp, they'll read the outside temp which is somewhere between the water temp and the air temp. The thermostat housing and water pump inlet, if they're both painted metal, will read close enough to the water temp for our purposes. Check post #8 for more thermostat checks. Backhoes are heavy and not a lot of HP, they don't go up hills in road gear well.
Thanks Delmer. I'll check post 8. Trust me - it's not getting power to the drive somehow.. It used to go up thelis same hill with a lot more power only 6 months ago (last time I tried). And it didn't struggle with rpms then like it's doing now. I do appreciate all the input!! I started a separate thread for the power topic.
Just a quick update: I have not done anything more with this area as of yet. But for what it's worth, as far as dash and console electrical goes, my current status is my tachometer is operational, and miraculously the windshield wipers works, the cabin heat motor works, and even that little age old cooling fan works!! I am still planning to install the newly ordered engine water temperature sender and gauge for peace of mind, to get me thru a few more seasons hopefully.. And then when time allows I will gradually attempt to refurbish the existing gauge system. Based on my above electrical status report here... If that helps narrow down which existing component may be faulty... Please let me know!!! I will take note of it and start my fox at that component. Thanks