Going to see who builds the plumbing, and if Cat might be reasonable? Reason I ask is I was recently dumbfounded to realize CAT had my hydro hose for 1/2 of what I had just paid. I really need to convert this manual thumb to hydro. machine does not have aux plumbing. I called for a quote from one of the big aftermarkets and about fell over. We also do manufacturing and fully capable of building this stuff, but sometimes it is still cheaper to buy, and I need to find that out. I think we will end up modifying the existing manual thumb and doing custom progressive linkage to get full actuation. the QC really throws a wrench because I need to do that at the same time to get geometry right. I have seen several QCs used but they throw dims out there that make no sense and I won't spend that coil on a gamble. It seems like a pin grabber type is what many use. I obviously want to use my factory bucket. I do some stuff around humans so I cannot be getting into questionable QCs. I see that "double clamping" is common today. Maybe not from yrs ago.
I have the exact same scenario, wanting to put aux hyds on a 320cl, pin grabber and pro link thumb. the machine has been at the cat dealer for over three weeks and I still don't have a quote from them, very annoying. If you don't mind letting me know what you were quoted I'd appreciate
Not that I need this today, but frustrated that CAT dealer didn't even get back to me today. Super. Anyone know if these are in the parts books to just get part numbers? I have half a mind to just order bulk hose and do a temporary install. I know those steel lines will hurt if CAT wants them too.
Okay, firstly, Cat used to offer kits, but, a parts counter guy couldn't access them. They are found through the sales department. 2ndly, the kit is stupid money, but, piecemeal is even worse. Which big aftermarket did you contact? 3rdly, do you have someone to fab the steel piping for you, or, if you can weld, make them yourself? I made these by using socket weld ends on hydraulic tubing.
My day job is engineering and making airplane parts so we do have the equipment and resources to make the entire deal. However, sometimes things are still cheaper to just buy. I'm not sure just yet. Will have some bucks just in the DOM tubing for this to meet pressure specs. Where did you source your socket ends? If it is all stupid money, I can probably justify designing and building everything down to the valves, but I'd like to have numbers to compare to.
Anchor Fluid Power is who made the socket ends I used. That pipe in the picture, w/ fjic to code62 @ 28.5" cost $100 in materials when I made it in 2014.
That tube (4) is $773. That shutoff valve (1) is $423.
Don't think you accounted for Biden pricing in those figures but I will certainly check them out. Is that where you sourced your steel tubing? We don't have too much around local in 4130 heavy wall to handle the pressures.
You may be able to source 1” seamless from your local hose or industrial hydraulic supplier. It’s fairly common. Parker sells the flaring tool you will need and the flare nuts. I would flare 37 JIC. For mounts, there may already be something welded on the boom and stick ready to go. Then, source whatever clamps that Cat is using. Worst case, you may have to weld tabs on. Or, just hire me to do it.
Strange times we live in and it’s really hard to get that sort of work done. Fabricated tube part numbers from Cat have always been difficult to source, even from Cat. It’s often made to order. Plus, it’s hard to ship without damaging it or making special accommodations. The dealers are probably waiting to hear back from the depots on availability. Might be worth checking with the local industrial Hyd places and have someone like that do the work vs the dealer.
Here is something you guys could possibly answer. On the engineering side, we look at allowable stress vs ultimate strength to determine a safety margin. I'd like to see if anyone knows what wall thickness CAT might use on say a 1" pipe? Anyone have on to measure? It is possible we could reduce margins a bit. Obviously there is likely no need to exceed CAT's specs on this as it seems to be field proven. When I mention stress, I mean internal PSI allowable. Since the system pressures are protected with bypass and relief valves, we might be able to look at it differently.
Fastline, Caterpillar has so many business units and manufacturing facilities, finding a common spec will be difficult. But, the industry standard is seamless EO steel tube E235N. That gives you 725 bar to work with. You’ll set the thumb cylinder line relief to approx 2,200 psi.
I should have mentioned to look at the Parker 4300 catalog under the title, metric tubing. https://www.parker.com/literature/Tube Fittings Division/4300_Catalog_Cover.pdf
One thing I was considering is reviewing flow/pressure in this install for the possibility of other aux hydro tools. I am trying to think of a worst case for flow requirements, but I know I won't ever run a hammer. For that reason, I just need to see if there is any likelihood of needing more pressure. thanks so much for the specs! Big help there!
You are welcome. Probably overthinking it now. Can’t think of an attachment that will require more pressure than what the auxiliary circuit and plumbing can handle. Keep us posted on how the project turns out. Especially, if your crew does it in-house.
10-4. Prob a 95% chance it will get done inhouse. Since we will already be converting/using the manual thumb and doing progressive linkage. Still curious about QCs though. Is there a simple way to assess compatibility if buying used? Pin size, distance between them, width, etc?
For QC units, their is no brand to brand comparison charts for acceptable pin spread dimensions. I've got 3 generations of Cat QC, and Geith, JRB, and Strickland in the fleet. Your question is too vague. Can you clarify what application you have or need? Or are you just asking which brand is better?
We currently have our CAT reference bucket on the machine. I need to be able to swap to a smaller bucket. I am not looking for something that would require all new buckets. All other machines we have ever had with a QC came with CAT equipment, which is just not in the budget. From what I understand, a "pin grabber" style is probably what we are looking for? I want the ability to flip the bucket around as well. If I have not answered your questions, please fire over more. I need to start homing in on what we need because apparently they are not sold for a make/model. I have read that many have went to a double clamp type or at least an secondary safety device. Can't say we have ever had one come loose, but will admit they make me nervous at times.
Its nice to stick with one brand for the QC, buckets, for the thumb. Or, weird compatibility issues arise. Consider dealer support options for locating GET consumables like bucket teeth. Lots of competitive options. Want a recommendation? I like PSM LLC in Wa state and their attachments.
Hmmm, that I have not heard. You are saying if I have nothing but CAT buckets, I need a CAT coupler?
First, let's see what linkage configuration you have. "B" or "S". Most of my newer stuff are "B" linkage, that includes my 320D, 320E, 321C, and 325F. My 322B were "S" linkage. My 325C was a "C" linkage. My 324D were "CB" linkage. The bucket will have a group number, that'll lead us to its pin dimensions. The machine serial number will allow us to determine its configuration.
On it. will report back in a few. Bucket is 1220GP-C 48" general purpose, C link? Another number under that. Need it?
"C" linkage may be right. A "C" bucket will fit in a "B" or "S" Cat pin grabber, but will be wider between the hinges the coupler hooks. We run 'em like that all the time. How about just machine serial number prefix, if you're leary of sharing the whole serial number? The whole number would be better.
PMing serial boss.
All right...the hoe has an "S" linkage.
Does the linkage type determine the width, pin spread, and pin diam? i know I have 2 other buckets are are stupid close for this one but are about .75" more narrow. Same pin size. Not sure if a QC will give me a little flexibility here or if they need to be exact width.
They don't make the "S" linkage anymore. Use "B" linkage specs. "C" linkage is obsolete, but matches "CB" linkage but only has 80mm pins.
I really appreciate it! I will have to study my other buckets closely to see how I can modify them to work. They are older but one is a minty 36" that would really help me out. Are you able to verify dimensions C, D, E on the bucket I have? It is hard to get perfect with the bucket attached. It appears shims were added between stick and bucket. Near as I can measure E is about 12.75"
The hinges on the bucket can be wider than the coupler, unless you're OCD. I bushed and repinned all of my C, CB, and D hinges on my hydraulic hammers to 80. Now I can run them on any of my B, C, S, or CB couplers. If overwide were going to cause an issue, it would've showed up there. The "B" coupler also grabs my old PC200 and PC220 buckets.
I did lots of thumbs some years ago and it is far less expensive to buy the components individually. Control handles now days seem to be a brand called SureGrip. I got the D3 valve from a local hydraulic supplier. I bought the tubing direct from a place called Kilsby Tubing and the weld on fittings for the tubing came from the local Parker dealer along with the Stauff clamps. Now days you can purchase clamps with longer bolts that just go on top of the existing clamps already mounted on the boom. The auxiliary valve for your Cat will be a problem as it is again stupid expensive to purchase and install on a machine that didn't have one from the factory. You might be able to find a larger solenoid valve to run the thumb direct. I never mounted tubing on the sides of boom but that is just a personal preference. They do tend to get damaged as you can't see the tube on the side opposite of the cab. For labor costs, I used to install one with all the parts on hand in less than twenty hours. For a first time or single job, figure at least forty without counting the time it takes to figure out the parts situation. As far as Cat dealers go, our local dealer made a kick back deal with Hydraulic Kits and Controls who bought parts from the Cat dealer, put them in boxes and then sold them back to the dealer who put another markup on them. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of other Cat dealers doing the same thing. At the time I left the dealer, Cat did have the option of getting the thumb from the factory, but the dealer wouldn't tell the customer that. The other problem with getting quotes for install is there are so few people in the service departments now and most have not installed a thumb before, that they don't know what to charge. Good Luck
Thanks John! This machine does appear to already have an aux circuit built into the main valve block. The main ports are blanked off, and plugs in the pilot spool buckets. I planned to go with a pedal arrangement since a stick servo would be much more hassle and I think I can get used to a pedal again. On the QC, I am not yet sure where I will get fluid power or how that will get done. As for the steel lines, yes, I had planned to either stack them over the existing lines on the top, or possibly right next to them and clamp to the existing steel line. Either way, no lines on the sides of the boom. I am really surprised more people don't have protection hoops over all that business up there if working in the woods. One good whack can get quite expensive.
I put a couple of QCs on awhile back and they generally run off of arm curl pressure. I've seen the plumbing mounted on the cylinder itself but most common now seems to be back at the main control valve. Those were hydraulic pin grab couplers. They have the two jaws but the front jaw has a plate wedge that is forced out by a cylinder mounted inside the coupler. Another thing to watch out for on Cats is they like to use two different diameter pins on the bucket on some of their machines. It's something to check if you get a coupler that uses two jaws that engages the pins.
So.... doing some more work on these couplers and appears having a "range" of pin spread is not a guarantee. Some require a very specific pin spread? Also, I notice some have a spring pack, and some do not. I am assuming a sprung coupler is designed to hold with that spring system regardless of anything? I ran into one couple that appears to be a double acting cylinder with a manual lock pin system. So you have to get out and install a pin. I was also trying to understand these linkage differences as was mentioned that mine is an "S" link. Someone I talked to indicated a B link 320 bucket would have 80mm pins, but a spread of 445mm, and my S link would me 485mm. The face spread or width is the same? Obviously I would prefer a coupler that has a range it can work in, rather than highly specific. I could only guess the bigger pin spread on the 322 was done to give more bucket force. But if I get a coupler that has its pins at 445mm, I will end up with reduced bucket force? I guess I am trying to ensure I don't have a conflict in a certain coupler.
OK, so what I have learned today is some manufactures have a "pinlock" style which has a manually installed pin and are pretty specific on pin spread. JRB also has a wedge type that has a pretty wide range of pin spreads. As well, the way JRB, and likely others do the hydraulic actuation is tap into the bucket cylinder circuit for full system pressure, NOT pilot at all. The curl circuit provides the pressure for the coupler, and a reversing solenoid is activated to open the coupler. Bucket curl pressure is always provided to the coupler cylinder and a check valve is on it so basically pressure is confirmed on the coupler every time the bucket is curled in use, and a check valve ensures it does not bleed down. It appears there is a check right on the cylinder and in the solenoid block. As long as I can find a reasonable way to get bucket cyl pressure to the coupler, the rest is easy. It seems common for dedicated lines to be run over the boom rather than tapping closer to the bucket cyl.
Imo safest place to get you main pressure feed from is directly from the pump that feeds the bucket cylinder this way you always have pump pressure holding the quick hitch closed even with no functions actived. With a 4 port quick hitch solenoid plum it as follows Port p=main pressure in Port t=return to tank Port a=closing pressure to quick hitch ram Port b=opening pressure to quick hitch ram.
With system plumber like you described above there is nothing but a small check valve holding on the bucket when any other funchion other that bucket curl is activated.
While I agree that relying on checks to hold pressure on such a device seems less than ideal, tapping into the pump may not be the solution as at least on my pumps, they are not always guaranteed at full system pressure. They modulate stroke depending on demand. You would probably always have "some" pressure, but not relief level pressure.
That's how most pumps work. You only need "some" pressure to hold on the bucket when at idle and the more pressure you put on the bucket the more pressure pushing to hold it on. Imagine if you are pushing dirt away with the back of the bucket using fully arm out and bucket dump pressure. With feed from pump you have pressure from pump holding the quick hitch closed. With your feed from bucket curl you have no pressure in the circuit so if check valve fails or seals in quick hitch ram are leaking your bucket will loosen or worse fall off. Also if a quick hitch hose fails with quick hitch pressure coming from bucket curl you bucket circuit loses pressure through broken quick hitch pipe and you bucket ram will move with no control to stop it
At the moment, I am reviewing options for the valve block for this. I am pretty certain Parker makes most of these, but people put their label on them. Any clue on that? The diagram I have is 2 solenoid valves and internal checks in the valve block. Hook up and go. I think I found one on ebay but sold and for like $500! Ports are C1/C2 and Ret/Ext.
this is what I use cetop 3 directional solenoid with a four port sub plate. I usually only pay 120 euros for both
What ever valve you get make sure it's rated for the pressure cos I have seen those valves made with aluminium sub plates only rated for 100 bar and they will burst
This one is on all my Cat excavators. https://parts.ringpower.com/inventory/Part_Details/329E/NA/3282035/UCA
Whilst I think about it, I'd almost bet that you're pre-wired for the solenoid and switch.
Interesting. Does not appear that one has any safety checks at all on it. ? Hard to tell in the few pics i can find of one. As for prewire, I will check schematic but my less than helpful dealer said it doesn't have anything. I was in the harness in the cab and know there are a few pigtailed plugs in there. Not exactly a big concern at the moment though. EDIT, did confirm per the electrical schematic it should be prewired for the solenoid. Have 2 wires that should exist in the cab at the switch panel. One is fused 24V power, other goes to ECU (tell it things are happening) and to the solenoid, which should be hiding between boom and cab......somewhere......
The only safety check on a Cat is in the cylinder. It's a load check valve like on a backhoe outrigger.
Gotcha! JRB has one as well, but I guess added more safety with checks in the valve too. Are there any other part numbers for that CAT valve? hard to find. Like to find as "surplus". Also, where do you like to tap for hydro pressure? I was going to comb the main valve body as something surely exists. I am cool with tapping pump pressure rather than bucket curl. The CAT electric schematic shows termination to a "QC solenoid" of 1528346. That is just a solenoid, not a hydro block group, which at least makes me wonder if there is something made into the main valve block?
Buried in this thread, is there a machine serial number? Regardless, post it here, or at least the prefix. And, Cat engineered everything for a coupler on these machines. While some of your questioning is unique, most of these 3 pages are trying to reinvent the wheel. Search for used "S" linkage coupler from Cat, put in the Cat switch, and Cat solenoid, plumb your homemade hoses to Cat's supply and tank ports (just like factory), and run your homemade hosing out to your used coupler.
HEK serial. I've mostly been on machines already equipt with couplers. Dealer has been zero help. Sorry man, I had to take a dive to understand it all. It's coming around. You telling me the valve block already has the ports?
I grabbed a pic of that but looks like a lot of business for 2 simple lines to a coupler.....lol I am certain I have none of that in the 322
I have questions. I decided to revive my old thread to bring back the extremely helpful comments! I am finally kinda forcing myself to get this stuff done. Coupler is first but I have a question. My 322 is an S link but apparently that coupler type is just not out there! It was recommend to use a B link coupler, which indeed I believe will work. However, it brings a question or concern I have. My pin spread is about 19.25" or 490mm but all B couplers will have a pin spread of 443mm. What this means is the smaller spread will apply less force to the bucket. I have calculated a loss of about 10%. While the B coupler engagement jaws will reach out to hit the spread of my bucket, it is the attachment to the machine where the force loss will be. I am wondering if I should just accept this as 'normal', or do more work to see if shopping specs for say a JD or something would give me the spread I should have?
My 321D LCR uses the b linkage… it’s a 60k pound machine. I don’t have any issues keeping the buckets on the coupler. I know cost is always an issue but Werk Brau, JRB and others have couplers that for the most part will accept a “range“ of different size pin and spread combinations. I also have had luck finding used cat parts on machinery trader. I bought a complete used Cat pin grabber and hydraulics for a 315cl we had and with help from Milton Cat tech service got the original installation docs to plumb it up.