How tight should the liners sit in the block with no lower liner seals? 92U PCTA Cat 3406.
Slip fit.
Perfect. The old ones took a good 5-6 ton to remove. Was a little concerned when the new ones went in like nothing.
I assume the liner is held tight and in place by the lower seals/filler band and on top by the crush due to liner protrusion?
Correct!
Awesome! Just wanted to be sure it was all good before I put the liner seals on and drop the pistons in. Thanks ya'll. Merry Christmas!
Lube the liner seals with soap or something non-oily. Soak the filler band in engine oil, fit it to the liner and install the liner immediately. Clamp the liner down because the filler band will begin to expand.
And that, boys & girls, is why it took 5-6 tons to press the old ones out where the replacements simply drop in. You won't move them by hand once the filler band has expanded. Cmark pretty much quoted the Service Manual word for word ........... " Put liquid soap on the O-ring seals and on the cylinder bores. Put filler band (2) in SAE 30W oil. Then immediately install the filler band on the cylinder liner and immediately install the cylinder liner in the cylinder block with tooling (C) before expansion of the band."
Thanks again guys. I've read the procedure a few times. I haven't done an engine rebuild before so just didn't know if it was normal for the liners to just drop in by hand. I had no idea that the filler band expanded and put that much force on the liner.
And years of contaminants collecting on the seals and band (on Cummins it's called a crevice seal}. But one thing if your installing complete Cat piston liner packs {remove the yellow liner plug/cover and carefully pull the rod and piston assembly down to where you can see the wrist pin and check that the snap ring that retains the wrist pin is in it's bore-fully locked} I always check those because the shop I was working in years ago that item wasn't checked on a B model inframe-wrist pin slid into cylinder wall-it had 30 minutes run time. Cummins I use vegtable oil, Cat I use Sil Glyde on the bottom seals and bottom bore and oil on filler band.
Here's the project. Turning a W900A daycab into an RV hauler.
I always liked those white putty cat engines.
CAT Power Module White. Paccar white wasn't bright enough for me.
92U 3406, you really need to clean that block up better I think I see a fingerprint between those two studs sticking out the front! And tell me you are going to touch up those scratches circled in red:
Lol I think that's just the boss the fan hub adjustment bolt sits in.
Lol yep it'll be getting repainted once assembled. Just wanted to get the block covered before bolting all the accessories onto it. Kinda hard to get paint behind the fuel pump and compressor lol.
Lord alone knows how many engines I've rebuilt over the years, but I would say that well over half of them have been 3400 series.
I don't know how far you have gone with the block overhaul but I would advise you to check liner protrusions before final assembly.
0.004" across the board. I found a bad spot on the spacer plate I missed during inspection after I checked. Putting assembly on hold until I get a new one. Then will re-check again with the new plate on.
I'm guessing you have a copy of the D&A? It's important to clamp down the liner and spacer plate before measuring.
I do as well. Had more than one ask me why the 7FB in my 359 had been painted the wrong color!
Looks great! It sure does feel good when one is all assembled and looks good. Quite a sense of accomplishment. Most of my assembly work is in the field, more like a NASCAR pitstop.
I just figured everyone had a muscle car so why not build a W900 from the ground up? Something a little more unique than average.
just one further note- on initial dry fit before liner seal installation, if a protrusion reading is out of spec, rotate the liner and take protrusion readings again around the clamped liner. I always check each liner at 4 locations to make sure they are seated squarely down and then mark the top of the flange with a sharpie so it can be reinstalled in the same orientation.
Probably stating the obvious but make sure the o rings are not twisted and I always change the oil cooling nozzles
This stuff is slick as can be, will not deteriorate rubber or O-rings. Many a Peterbilt encapsulated windshield has been broken on installation using soap on the gasket trying to rope it into cab opening. Smear the cab and gasket with Sil Glyde and it will rope right into place. On Cat liners I sear it in the lower seals and lower bore, set liner/piston pack into place in block and using a large 6"x6" piece of 1" thick UHMW on top of liner I can lightly tap the liner with ease right down to where it bottoms out flange to block. I quit using soap on lower seals a long time ago. One of the last C-15's I did ran 945,000 miles, it just got done again.
Plus I always mic the liner flanges first in four spots, weather it's a Cat, Detroit or Cummins. Then I check the deck surface using using a deck bar/straight edge across the block on Cat, across the counter bore if it is a Cummins or Series 60. Then measure the counter bore depths with a depth mic in four places. If it's a Cat I mic the intermediate plate and the steel shim. Set liner in place locked, lock block plate in place measure liner height and add the shim thickness. And every time it comes up the same by locking everything in place or doing the math without locking inplace. On Series 60 your allowed from .0005 below deck to .003 above max. I try for .002 on Series 60, Cummins .004-.005 max. The problems occur when liner shims are added and dull tooling is used with a Kent Moore or Monaco tool. That can throw it off, when it comes to cutting for shims or repair sleeves the job is only as good as the guy doing it. IMHO.
I had the block decked and the liner bores sleeved. Line bore was good. Block was in great shape. No cracks. Mains have not been bored over. No crank journals are ground under either. All mains plastigauged in at 5 to 6 thou. Endplay on the crank was in spec too.
Not trying to scare you, but a freshly machined block really requires the utmost care checking liner measurements. Had a B model done about 15 years ago that had a lower liner bore sleeve just slightly off center. Cost me a bunch of money smoothing things over with the customer when the liner cracked a week later. Protrusion check would have caught it. But I didn't check it myself... Hey reworked everything should be good to go, right? Mistakes happen.
Did you have B&G machine Seattle do the block work? If so you got the best. Going back to one of my reply's in another thread-never trust or just assemble with out checking the machine work performed. Always good to get out the micrometers and check the work. It doesn't take that much time.
I had the block done by an outfit around here that's been in the business for decades. They do a lot of machining work for the dealers in the area. Everything looked pretty good when I checked it over myself.
No mine was done elsewhere, they bent over backwards to make it right so we still do business. Apparently the guy that did the bore job screwed up several others and went to work in the fast food field.
I think I know where he is now.... The boss brought us burgers the other day from mcdonalds and my double cheese burger was jammed in the box crooked
Half the time they have trouble centering the burger in the bun and looks like they tried dropping the cheese from 20' above. More cheese hanging out the side than on the burger.
I was talking about 92U's block RZ, I had Cat Pasco come to the shop and cut six for liner shims around 2004. The surface was so rough after cutting and was lower to the center than the inside edge. We went round and round on that one before it got straightened out. The Kent Moore tooling they were using was shot.
And they demanded a $15/hr minimum wage lol.
Had a dozen 71 series Detroit rods sent out to a well known machine shop in Nanaimo years ago, got them back all nice and reworked, 3 were visibly bent! The company did source and supply replacements free of charge in short order and we continued to do business after, hopefully whoever did the work learned from the experience to pay more attention!
Did they bend them somehow or just fail to catch that they were already bent?
Somehow failed to catch that they were bent, they weren't horrible, but still obvious. I never got to lay eyes on them until they came back, it was one of those "I get the (dis)pleasure of finishing" jobs..
Even on a good day the Kent Moore tooling requires skill to use and on a bad day it's garbage, however It does have its uses when you're on an end cylinder with something like a timing cover in the way. My goto tool is the Mira BB. Once you've used it there's no going back. http://www.miratool.ch/MIRA-BB-86-Counterbore-Units-for-recutting-diesel-sleeve-counterbores.php
Totally agree-the Mira is a great piece of tooling too bad it took so long to arrive. The Monaco is basically a copy of the Moore but it is much better machined and smother to operate.
Being we are on the subject of machine work-how many of you ever run/use one of these, {slang term, a one arm bandit} I have {it is very time consuming to set up}.
I have heard of them, never seen a picture of one before. Is this the one where you drive the crank by putting one rear wheel on a turning mechanism? Do you move it lengthwise on the journal by hand?
Where I worked at one time they hired a guy who for a few years had run his own truck repair shop near by. He managed to convince the then boss at the shop to buy his Mira-BB. It did take a little getting used to but liked the fact that for just about all the engines we worked on at that time the one tool would do just about them all. Then a few years latter due to change in upper management we stopped doing just about anything other than replacing leaky gaskets and oil changes and I was the only wrench that survived the cuts in man power. Well less than a year before I retired the more or less preferred outside contractor the company was using for major work that I and others used to handle in house was working on something for the company and I asked them about cutting counterbores. Seems they had to farm that work out so I showed their main mechanic the Mira-BB. I even let him take it with the understanding if he like how it worked I would see if I could convince my boss to sell it to him. Well April 2015 came and went and I have no idea if they ever came back to talk to my boss or if they just went by the idea that possession was 9/10 of the law and called it their's. Guess what ever did happen I would hope someone who knows what it is is using it. Way too many tools I spent years using that the company bought that I know no one there has the faintest idea what they are or how to use them. One right off is the OTC Flow meter and flow divider sitting in the cabinet in what used to be or engine and transmission shop, which last I knew was a junk storage area. Often wondered what I could have walked out of that place with and no one would have been the wiser!
That kit pictured is minus one item, there is a electric motor that had a set of small gears with different number of teeth that could be clocked in position on a concentric. and mounted where the starter is. And it was moved laterally by a screw turned by hand. In the photo the grind stones are the ones on long stems.
Thanks a lot for the picture. I hadn't been able to get my head around how the grinding was actually accomplished. The long mounted points grinding on the end rather than the OD is what I was missing. Its probably something I will never use, but I'll file it away in my head just in case.
Hey @Truck Shop , thanks for the drawing advice awhile back. Not perfect but for a guy who had trouble drawing stick people I'm impressed with my first attempt:
Good job! Now use a 2H pencil and add some shading to the bottom of the fuel tank, air cleaner and so on. Look at some of my art to get an idea of direction and light source. Cle Elum-land of the Vitches wasn't built in a day, keep working at it.
I might try the shading. Original plan was to leave it as is and try shading and other techniques on later drawings. I started on a Hayes HD and Pacific P9 a couple weeks ago.
Dam! you guys sure have some skills! I have to get my butt in gear and frame up the print of the 1930 KW Truck Shop sent me a while back!
Got a pic? That one sounds interesting. I finally got the Mack Service truck pic framed up last fall.
Was that a marine engine, or that’s just a white colored primer?! IMHO that’s too big of an engine for RV hauler!
There's no crime in having a big motor. LOL
I think the Paccar trucks had white painted Cats up til 1987ish.
Its called CAT Power Module White. As stated above, Paccar used to paint the engines going into their trucks white. I think the original white was more cream coloured though. Engine appears to be the original for the truck. I've tracked down 2 of the 3 previous owners and neither of them had replaced it. The 2nd owner rebuilt it over spring breakup in his driveway though. I do know the head has been replaced at some point as it had traces of CAT Yellow paint still on it. It never did get upgraded to DITA though.
It actually wasn't super difficult, believe it or not. I had a photo in front of me to go off of so it made it easier. To get the drawing to the point of where it is probably took me about 8 or 9 hours. I'd sit down with a pencil for 15 or 20 minutes a night after work for a couple weeks. I found after about 20 minutes I'd start to get sloppy so I'd just put it away. I swear I re-drew the front tires, grill and passenger door about 6 times each!
You wouldn't believe how many pen & ink drawings I had round filed years ago. -----For years since though it's been-One ping, One ping only please. The longest brake from art I took was almost 17 years.
I think the biggest killer for drawing (for me anyways) was art class in school. I never understood how a teacher could "grade" art. Especially when the majority of them never taught any techniques or skills. It was easily my worst grade, my most hated class and the first one I dropped once it was no longer required. Its a shame because I'm really enjoying it now and it sucks that a couple lousy teachers soured me on it for so many years.
I always took art class and hardly ever did anything/rarely turned in any work. I remember my last art class {oil painting} it was near the end of school year and the teacher told me that if I didn't turn in at least one project he would fail me. So I gathered a pre-stretched canvas and paint and brushes and quickly painted a clipper ship close hulled and under full sail in rough seas. I turned it in that period and went back to reading Hot Rod and Custom car mags. The students in the class were all pi$$ed off because I did that in less than an hour. I only took the class because it was a easy C grade for me. Really the teacher should have kicked me out of the class at the start. School art is a worthless waste of time for most students, drawing a bowl of fruit will get you know where in life unless of coarse you add some Cheerios and milk to that fruit.
That was me in shop classes. Myself and 2 others almost got booted one year. Teacher let 2 of us bring in our ride-on mowers to fix and another brought his trike in. Well we snuck in during lunch one day and decided to rip around the schoolyard on our mowers and trike. We got busted and had to spend a week or 2 doing written shop assignments and us 3 were banned from bringing any of our own stuff in.