99c5555 hey hef kinda weird one here 988f2 shut off as operator was leveling modified. Cranks no oil pressure on gauge and guage flashing. Double checked with a digital low pressure gauge I use for oil fuel low pressure. Nothing not a psi. But it I pull plug it will half *** pump oil. It's flows slow with no pressure. Checked bypasses nothing wrong. Pulled pan and pump looks fine. Relief plunger was in bottom of bore and spring was in tacked. Gear on crank is firmly attached. Same with gear on from of oil pump. Suction and supply tubes check out. There is uniform metal flakes in filters looks like bearing material not aluminum. It's not magnetic. Maybe 1-3 flakes per fold of oil filter media. It seems oil pump is supplying oil just no resistance to build pressure.... I don't see any damage that can dump all oil flow back to sump. Does a heiu motor need heui resistance to build oil pressure for rotating group? Seems far fetched to me. Any thoughts I'm scratching my head. I feel like I over looked someone but I'm not seeing it duh. lol
check the jumper tubes
Are you talking no engine oil pressure or no pressure from the HEUI pump to light the fires..? I speak under correction here but AFAIK if there is zero pressure from the main oil pump the HEUI pump ain't gonna be receiving much on the way of oil and therefore not producing much in the way of pressure. TBH the mention of 1-3 flakes of something non-metallic (lead-tin overlay.?) per fold of filter media in the engine oil filter would have me dropping at least a couple of bearing caps for a look-see, especially as you dropped the pan already. How many hours does the engine have on it since it was last overhauled..? Has it ever had engine oil contaminated with glycol..?
Hey nige we are looking for source of metal. No main oil pressure but flow there is a rather large tube feeding heui pump is there a way enough oil can flow threw heui pump and or system to dump main oil pressure down below 1 psi.... No history on engine machine is 37000 hrs engine is believed to have high hours. I pulled heui pump last night going to inspect.
Are you talking about the tube #2 in the illustration below..? Try blankingit either at the bottom or the top whichever is most convenient and see what happens to the engine oil pressure. Another interesting factoid. Engine S/N 99C05555 was originally installed in an 836 Landfill Compactor not a 988F Series II........ The ECM software for the 988FII and the 836 were/are different because the engine arrangements are totally different. Thinking out loud I wonder what software your engine has in it right now..? Not trying to muddy the waters but just asking. Latest software for the two engine arrangements are: - 836 - 236-5585 - 525BHP @ 2100 988FII - 236-5588 - 458BHP @ 2000 RPM A bit of a difference to say the least ............!!
Okay we bench ( tested ) heui pump. Used a 3/4 diaphragm pump with fresh engine oil at 80-100 psi pump leaks oil above shaft and out discharge maybe a quart a minute total. Doesn't seem like anywhere near enough to drop main oil pressure I'm totally stumped. Pump it heui pump looks striped out or it was spinning by a hope and dream them splines are toast. But pump is also broke inside. If I cap lines to heads with pressure feeding heui and you turn input if skips internal. Heui system is compromised but it isn't source of metal or no main oil pressure.
As I suggested above, blank the supply line from the block to the HEUI pump at either the bottom or the top whichever's easiest, crank 'er over and see what pressure you get. I'm willing to be it won't be much.
Hey nige I supplied wrong serial number that's a combination of to different pieces I'm working on I'll get correct info later. This company always has weird issues. Thanks for replies I'm going to try and blow air from oil filter housing back though oil cooler looking for restrictions before I put pump and oil pan back up. My brother though out idea of restriction before where I was taping in oil gallery
If not I'll cap heui line
Soo the plot thickens actually twists... 2zr001242 99c03535 I knew it repeats lol. Oil pump and bearings she makes 25 psi oil at gallery. Heui pump and drive gears striped. Got a used pump. rebuilt drive and nos oem cat injectors 8 of a 174-7526. loaders starts fine but has no power can't fill bucket. sounds even and smooth. We took 10r 1266 injectors out. Our cat dealer says 174 7526 is the right injectors is there a chance of compatibility issues
Is the 25 psi at cold start? Is the IPR part of the pump assembly, I think Cat calls it a hydraulic pressure sensor. It may have a screen that has some metal in it. IMO one must treat a HEUI fuel system failure just like a main hydraulic pump failure. Cleaning the system must be done in completion and addressing suction piping, cylinders, track motors... Repeat failure can almost be instant if not. I have found that treating the suction piping on C-7 as a maintenance item that those pumps last longer; not scientific but just not having the amount of HEUI failures as others. Also on that engine is it possible to have the plugs swapped on the crank and cam sensors? It is easily possible on a C-7.
Yes 25 psi cold oil cranking at 200 rpm with feed line to heui pump capped. It idles with warm oil around 40psi now. I did clean head and tubes but there was no signs of contamination. And injectors are really close on Cylinder cutout test. I don't think these injectors are faulty. It doesn't appear anything is connected wrong
Okay so I guess motor should have 20r0758 s but the one I took out seem to be higher hp injectors 10r1266 But the power loss I'm experiencing is maybe 50% loss Everyone I talk to says this motor should have a different version of the original I can't find where any 988f series 2 ran these 10r1266
I have a load of info from way back regarding HEUI injectors. Problem is I’m in an airport at the moment. Give me until tomorrow when I get where I’m going and I’ll see what I can dig up. Homework for you. What software Flash File Part Number does it have in the ECM..?
Well I tried looking one SIS and seem to fine reference to "Prime" injectors and "Non-Prime" injectors. Not sure what the two terms mean. But going by the S/N for this engine SIS seems to say the original injector was a 1388756 that in NPR changes to 1590835 and that one in turn changes to 1747526 and if I'm reading the attached letter correctly that number is a "Prime" injector. And in the same letter it says a 10R1266 is a reman for 2321183 and that one is a "Non-prime" injector. Hope when Nige gets time tomorrow he can add more information to that. Note the attached letter is referring to "Industrial Engines" not sure if that it would be applicable to a 988F II 3408E
Thanks KS and nige I knew there was a software issue I put old 10r1266 injectors In and runs fine. But they leak internal and give us hard start. It starts easy with new injectors just have to switch to worn out ones to load trucks lol. What sucks is these 1747526s are bought and paid for and have been used.... Do they use prime and non prime injectors in on heui engines I've never heard the term before?
What Ken has found is the way I was going to head also. AFAIK Prime injectors were done away with years ago and only non-Prime were available from that point forward. Were the replacement injectors bought from a Cat dealer or aftermarket..? I suspect the latter. My question about ECM software P/N relates to the fact that each type of injector requires a different software to make the engine run correctly. By the sound of it the possibility exists that while the injectors in the engine are Prime, the installed software is for non-Prime, especially as the P/N of the removed injectors corresponds to non-Prime. Still traveling at the moment. I’ll dig into it deeper a bit later. Really could use the info on the software P/N though.
Let's put one doubt to be for a start. Engine S/N 99C03535 was the original engine installed in 988FII S/N 2ZR01242, so that's that. Maybe a bit of explanation about Prime vs non-Prime would be in order. Simply put, Prime injectors actually inject fuel twice in each combustion cycle. Once way ahead of what usually would be the normal fuel injection point to establish a flame front, the second time just before TDC to generate the power. The theory was that the "pre-injection" reduced exhaust emissions. The problem with Prime was that the injectors operated twice every combustion cycle and therefore wore out twice as fast. Non-Prime are more like conventional injectors and inject only once per combustion cycle, therefore wear out only half as quick. Here are the Part Number progressions for Prime and non-Prime HEUI injectors. Prime - 119-3166->131-3098->138-8754(0R-8207)->159-0835(0R-8624)->174-7526(0R-9420)->232-1175(20R-0758). 232-1175 was later cancelled and the "progression" reverted to 174-7526. Non-Prime - 198-4752(10R-0964)->232-1183(10R-1266) A 99C-prefix engine installed in a 988FII with machine Serial Number between 2ZR00700 and 2ZR01631 and engine Serial Number between 99C1-7319 (which includes the OP's machine) would use the following software Part Numbers: - Prime injectors - 236-5587 (Interlock Code 20) Non-Prime injectors - 237-0735 (Interlock Code 79) Here's what I think based on what the OP has told us. The worn injectors that were removed were 10R-1266 which corresponds to non-Prime. The engine had plenty of power with those injectors, but had starting trouble because of the injectors leaking internally due to wear. I think the software in the ECM must be 237-0735, because when Prime injectors are installed the engine has no power although it seems to run smooth. The question has to be why a Cat dealer sold 174-7526 as a replacement for 10R-1266 because it isn't.............. The correct replacement for 10R-1266 would be another 10R-1266 if you wanted Reman or 232-1183 if you wanted a brand-new injector.
Thanks nige I was away for awhile I don't think I can get software numbers with my full service customer et we threw olds ones back in to get it going started swapping new ones today and look what I found. Talked to service managers and head techs wasted days and every box has one of these.....
I was about to ask if you could explain Prime vs non-Prime. Once again if I just keep my mouth shut I can learn a lot on here.
My that brings back memories. When the non-Prime injector was first released we asked for some documentation to explain the service mechanics that there was a difference between the two types and if you didn't replace like with like software changes would have to be made. That little piece of paper was the result.... We were the ones who insisted on the Spanish BTW, because most mechanics where I was working back them couldn't read English. You can get software numbers with a customer version of ET. Just connect and go to the configuration screen. It'll be there somewhere, probably listed as "Personality Module Part Number" or something like that. I think from memory it's the 4th line down, after the Equipment ID, Engine S/N, and ECM S/N.
Another question. Does that piece of paper you took the photo of have a Form # marked on it..? They are usually located at the bottom LH corner - format 4 letters followed by 4 digits- e.g. LEVH1234.
One other thing I learned and this won't help many but the injectors that leak significant I was able to determine them from being in mixed unmarked box by blowing air in oil feed hole of injector and look for leakage. It was 80+ degrees but the bad ones would shoot small fountain of oil. Ok ones tiny amount of leakage and new ones no leakage. I will grab the personality part number from copy configure tomorrow thanks again for help. It only got 4 of the worst injectors changed but starts fine now
Thanks for posting the photo. If you remember at the start of the thread I suggested to pump up the HEUI oil system and look for which ones leaked the worst. If the injectors are out of the engine your way works just as well. By replacing the worst-leaking injectors the HEUI pump will now be able to get the oil pressure up far enough in the rail to trigger the electronics and light the fires. A suggestion would be to keep a good note of which injectors were replaced this time because if it begins to have starting trouble again the four that were not replaced should probably be the first ones to look at.
Lil update they ran it for Lil over a year and blew motor up had us slap a used takeout 99c2507 and it ran good for 6+ months and heui pump came apart and left a sparkling trail to injectors..... I put the reman pump on today going to pickup seals to install new injectors tomorrow. The injectors we had from first go around are 174-7526 new cat ones purchased from off-road equipment as nos. The ones in this motor are 10r-1266.... I'm taking ecm to our local dealer tomorrow to see about flashing for injectors we want to use. I never did do copy configure to figure out what software is in this one. But if i look up injectors for our serial number i get the 174-7526 we want to use. So if cat tech can flash latest version of software that should match the injectors sis lists for engine no?
174-7526 is a Prime Injector. Reman for it is 10R-1265. BUT - see the photo you posted above, according to that you are supposed to replace it with 10R-1266. 10R-1266 is a non-Prime injector. You can't mix the two injector types in the same engine because the software to run Prime injectors and the software to run non-Prime injectors is different. I've had a look and what SIS says for the S/N (99C05555 installed in 835 S/N 7FR00441) is what it was originally built with. HOWEVER - a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. The Prime injectors have all but disappeared because Cat could never get over the premature wear issues caused by the injectors actuating multiple times during every injection cycle. The "Bible" for changing engines from Prime to non-Prime injectors is Cat Special Instruction REHS1385. According to that document you should be using 232-1183/10R-1266 Part Number injectors and 256-7312 flash file software. That will most likely require an Interlock Code change from 21 to 61 which may cause the dealer all sorts of conniptions. Don't be surprised if they try to sell you a new replacement ECM. The FLS/FTS settings for the engine woill also need to be changed from whatever is in the ECM right now (maybe -27/4 if the dyno test numbers are right) to -50/13.
As an addition to the above the replacement engine 99C02507 was originally built as 458 BHP @ 2000 RPM for a 988F Series II application vs the 525 BHP @ 2100 RPM of the 836, so I'm assuming that the ECM was taken from the failed engine 99C0555 and installed on 99C02507 otherwise I'm sure the operators would have been complaining of a lack of power.......!! 99C02507 was also originally built with 174-7526 Prime injectors.
I just re-read your post above. I have my fingers crossed that the ECM has Prime injector software (236-5585, or an earlier version such as 222-9252 or 177-5380) in it. Because if it already has 256-7312 non-Prime software there is no way the dealer will get passwords to go "backwards" with the software. In that event it will be either go with some more 10R-1266 injectors or buy a new ECM and have it flashed with 236-5585.
Thanks in original i goofed the serial number. Original was 99c3535 machine 2zr1242 174-7526 or 20R-0758 is what I get when I look up injectors but the machines I've worked on all have the 10r-1266. Is there a bulletin or something that I'm missing why they updated these. My dealer stock one.of each...
The ecm is one that came with 99c2507 both motors had 10r1266s so I'm going to assume newer files..... So best bet is forget we have the 174-7526s and order 8 10r1266s
In that case I would suggest not to assume the ECM has non-Prime software. Have the dealer check what the software is (plus the FLS/FTS settings) and post it back here. I'm interested to hear what's in it. For 988F II 2ZR01242 the ECM software for non-Prime injectors is 237-0735. Interlock 79, FLS -59, FTS 106. Once you have the engine running again you can check the power by the converter stall RPM @ 1880 RPM and the double (converter + hydraulic system) stall @ 1730 RPM. I've highlghted them below in blue. They are only approximate numbers but at least give you an idea of how the engine is performing.
lil update finally got around to finishing loader it starts fine sounds fine it's a little slow to rev up but above 1200 rpm power is normal no smoke no rattle if i had to guess timing is a little advanced but doesn't seem to hurt anything..... They leaving it for spare machine for few weeks till money is better and then put set of 10r1266s back in thanks for help hef.
Btw cat dealer didn't plug into ecm said they couldn't go backwards like nige said.
211-1655 flash file (personality module) software services to 237-0734 which is Non-Prime software, so at least the 10R-1266 injector is the correct match for that sofdtware. However if you look at the table above it's the file Part Number for a machine with a S/N lower than 2ZR700, so strictly speaking it's not the right one. How much difference it would make if it was changed to 237-0735 I have no idea, and TBH I wouldn't recommend trying it. Reading your comment about the sluggish initial engine response I think I can suggest something. See the FLS & FTS (Full Load & Full Torque Fuel Setting) numbers. They are the original values that engine 99C02507 left the factory with in 1997 when it had Prime injectors installed. The FLS/FTS values ought to be changed from the exising 70/5 to -59/106 as per the table in post #32 above. That should sharpen up the engine response significantly. To make that adjustment will require factory passwords, so it's a dealer-only change I'm afraid. If the decision is made to make the FLS/FTS changes then I would suggest updating the 211-1655 to 237-0734 at the same time. It could all be done using the one set of passwords.
Fascinating thread. I realise I know nowt about much. My fitter told me many years ago,to try and avoid any Huie engine. I can see why now
You're not wrong there Nicky. The early 3408/3412E HEUI engines gave us fits back in the mid-1990's and really didn't get that much better as the years went on.
I recall having a problem with a 769D years back S/N 5SS00621. It would run and start fine every weekday morning but shut it down over weekend and Monday morning it would crank for ever to get it to start. That was my first experience with a HEUI engine. Had to wait a week to have Cat guy come out on a Monday to see it in the no start condition. Only took a quick look at the injectors while cranking it to say needs injectors. Luck dealer had set in stock and by the end of the day she was running like new!