Straight 410 backhoe Just as I get other thing fixed and start working again I'm about an hour on the hoe and a hose blows. The hose feeds the backhoe and is about 6" long x 1"id just above the filter housing. I assume this is a pressure line since most of it is steel pipe and this small piece is on the end of the line. So the hose blows and I replace it and maybe an hour back on the hoe it does it again. Not sure if there is a pressure problem or maybe the fluid is getting to hot but am not sure what the cause could be. Any ideas. Thanks, Tom
How did it blow? blow end off... blow through rubber and braid wire...
The first blow out was on the center at the bottom and blew a hole through the rubber and braided wire. The new blowout I haven't seen yet but the hose is still attached at both ends. I'll take it off tomorrow morning and see what it looks like.
A 40 year old hose is allowed to blow at any time. It's the new one that matters. There's a fair chance one of the couplings came loose, or the hose was defective to start with. This doesn't connect to the filter, does it? just near the filter.
I'm curious to know what your pressure is and what the new hose was rated at. I don't think it's a heat problem. For only an hour run time something would be getting cherry red.
Keep in mind we're talking about a Deere. I don't know what series 410 we're discussing, but most Deere loader/hoes used the Deere load sensing variable displacement pump, closed center system, even if a coupling came loose it shouldn't develop pressure more than the standby pressure metered by the load sensing system. As you stated, a 40 yr old hose can pop without warning, but i if the new hose is proper spec/pressure, and it turns out the hose assy is correct, maybe a problem with pump pressure output??? More in info need for sure.
Willie He mentioned a 1975 410 in another post, so it should be the closed center system. He didn't know yet where the new hose burst, that's why I thought it might be leaking from a loose fitting, and a half turn loose will let it empty fast at standby pressure. There was talk about stuttering, plugged screens, etc. so anything is possible. The pressure regulating valve on the hydraulic pump would be getting pulled out if a new hose blew on me like that.
Thanks for the info Delmer, I haven't kept up with the info on this machine, it's just when I see Deere loader/hoe I know we're typically looking at a load sensing system, so yes, depending on just what failed on the new hose we may need to do a more in depth investigation.
The older Deere's, and some not so much older with those radial pumps, used closed center but not load sense, they ran at full pressure standby all the time, from zero flow to whatever the pump would put out. One place I worked had a 510, with and aux valve for a hammer. One of the pressure lines for whatever reason ran over top of the valve stack just under the sheet metal cover for the control sticks. At wide open throttle running the hammer, the operator let up on the foot switch, the solenoid valve snapped shut and with the pressure spike that hose blew out... dumped roughly 25 gallons of hot oil in about ten seconds... if he hadn't had fast reflexes and his rain gear on, he would have ended up in the burn unit, or worse. Word to the wise, on this type system, if you develop a hole, the pump will try to fill it at full pressure until you get it switched off or it runs out of oil, whichever happens first.
By the way, PLEASE keep your hands and every part of your body away from the hydraulic lines and hoses. Oil injection will get you a trip to the hospital ! ! !
Blueboy, you are correct. I have seen pictures of injection injuries, the aftermath of several surgeries to remove the fluid and dying flesh. It's a long painful process to recover from even a small wound like that and fatalities do occur. One field mechanic I used to see several times a week actually lost the last joint of one finger from having it in the way as he was tightening bolts with an air wrench. Don't recall if it was Loctite or silicone but the force of the bolt squeezing out the liquid injected it under the skin and after fighting it for a couple weeks they ended up removing part of his finger to prevent any further loss. Scary.
I know about the danger but never thought much about it ... Not anymore .. according to the Fluid Power Safety Institute, “Over 99 percent of the people who service, repair, and troubleshoot hydraulic systems have been subject to the exact dynamics that trigger a high-pressure injection injury. However, the ‘liquid bullet’ either missed or deflected off its target.” click this link to understand ... http://www.constructionequipment.com/injection
Not sure what you're saying here, do you mean to say since most of us dodge the bullet we shouldn't worry about it?
Au contraire ... because most of us have dodged the bullet, The danger is not always apparent. (I used to work with 10,000 PSI process feed pumps too. I stupidly touched a leaking fitting. Missed me that time. ) Google "injection injuries" for grusome pictures of the result.
And you would be correct, I was using the term load sense in a generic sense, they don't have an external load sense line from the valves, rather the Deere pumps internally sense changes in demand from the system and produce output (flow) according to demand, standby pressure would be whatever that particular model was designed to be. I once worked on a new Versalift bucket truck with a Rexroth hydrostat pump and was surprised they had standby pressure at 3000 psi. I mean, yeah, sure, it can work that way, but why design a hydro system to have such high stress (pressure) on the hoses at all times. Oh well...I don't build this stuff.
I removed the new (2nd) piece of hose (2.25" long x 1"ID) and it appears one end blew off since I saw no obvious damage. I'm going to get a heavier hose and heavy duty clamps and try it one more time before looking elsewhere. The first hose had an obvious blow so now I'm confused until I try it one more time. The bad part is I used the backhoe a lot digging stumps last Winter with the first hose so I feel something has changed. One hour on the hoe at a time won't cut it. I am no mechanic (a weekend farmer) and have no access to testing the pressure. The hoe worked great right up until the hydraulic fluid drained out...both times.
Whoa, wait, what? Clamps? I sure wish I new what hose we were working on here, but if it's a pressure hose, that's not an application for clamps. :beatsme
"There was talk about stuttering, plugged screens, etc. so anything is possible. The pressure regulating valve on the hydraulic pump would be getting pulled out if a new hose blew on me like that." Thanks Delmer: I seem to have resolved lots of other stuff and after I make 100% sure this small hose replacement doesn't work with the heavy hose and clamps I'll go to the pressure regulating valve.
Back up. 2 inches long, 1 inch diameter and held on with some kind of clamp? Is that the same as the old hose that came off? And does this hose connect to the filter or not? Does it connect the valve to the pump or the filter?
Can you post some pics?
It's cheaper than all the load sense logic, and with the pressure fixed at max, until it runs out of flow the metering on the spools is as good as you can get. You still get the savings of not pumping all the oil around in a circle doing mostly nothing and only the amount that's needed gets pumped, saves horespower, fuel, and cooler size and parasitic draw to run the cooler fan. Only the line from the pump outlet to the valve stack should be pressurized at standby in theory. There is a method to the madness, lol
You have a malfunction somewhere, you're talking about the low pressure hoses on the hydraulic filter head I'm guessing. One of those I think should send oil to the hydraulic pump, goes onto a fitting. The pump gets half it's flow from the tranny charge pump and the other half from it's own return oil. The other hose I think is the return from the backhoe as you stated, goes onto a steel line? By the way Deere says at least 3" of hose length on those, and YES, it is a pain to get them on. There's a low pressure relief valve in that head that dumps the excess back to the transmission case I believe, that may be stuck closed. Might want to check the return filter element inside for clogging and check the other valve in that filter head which is the bypass valve for when the filter does plug up. Also check the tranny dipstick, I'm not sure but that may be the breather for that case, don't see any elsewhere.
I was wondering about that. The load sensing system seems to be the best way to go but $$$ is a factor I guess.
I'll get back to the machine this weekend and track the lines better. There are 3 places with clamps and small sections of pipe and the one definitely feeds the horizontal filter, another is between the 2 filters and this one comes from a large hose that goes towards the front and then swings around so I need to remove a floor plate to see where it goes. The other end is the one where it clamps on a small section of pipe but am not sure where it goes. Anyway, I sense something is wrong beyond a faulty hose. This is how it was when I bought it last year with the section of hose and hose clamps on both ends. I changed the one between the filters and used the heavy duty clamp but never touched this one until it blew. My replacement hose repair may not have been tightened enough on the end I can barely reach and it blew but no hole in the hose so I assumed it leaked at an end. I'll get the right parts tomorrow and put it back together Saturday. I'll check the filters too and scope it out based on all the comments here. Access sucks without taking the rear wheel off and access from the top is blocked even with the floor pan removed. Thanks for all the comments, Tom
You'll get it eventually. With help from guys on this forum, even a "weekend farmer" can accomplish much. My machine has a piston pump with a gear pump feeding it all the time (lantraxco is a big fan) even at idle it has full flow going back to the filter. When I bought this machine the filter was missing from inside the tank. There was no replacement to be found anywhere, Donaldson discontinued it and didn't have a replacement. I had to get an aftermarket filter and filter head to relocate the filter outside. The 1 1/2" return hose I used is rated at 150 psi and I used a hd hose clamp to clamp it to the steel tube going back to the tank. The hydraulic oil was full of debris, and water from leaking seals. AND MY POINT IS THIS, when I ran the machine for the first time (with the new filter) the filter clogged up and started pushing the hose off. The bypass in the new filter head is set at 25psi, but it took 4 hd clamps to keep the hose from pushing off. It sounds like you have a more serious problem than mine, but maybe this will help a little. As mentioned before, you need to inspect a few things, filter, low pressure relief valve, bypass valve... Have fun this weekend!
I'm always up for a good challenge and oddly enough I seem to thrive on improving the tractor rather than the land it was intended to improve. My neighbor and I have actually had a good time resolving issues on this 410 and for the most part each issue has been corrected eventually I went up to NAPA today and got the replacement hose and new clamps and the guy there is in agreement this isn't a hose issue but pressure building in the low pressure side. I got new filters and more hydraulic fluid so hope to get to the bottom of it and finish digging the burn pit I started last Saturday. On a better note I got lucky on my last purchase a couple years ago of a JD 455G. Starts every time and everything works perfectly (knock on wood).
Pictures The above is the hose connection point (left is rear of tractor) This is where the other end feeds to or from (looking towards the front of the tractor) This is the other piece the hose attaches to This is my first picture post...hope it works
update I replaced the hose and then after removing the filter housing (which I should have done first) I found the bottom of another small hose was blown out on the bottom just like the first one was. Not sure if both hoses blew the first time or if the other hose blew the second time since it would have drained the fluid in the same general location. The filter was pretty dirty after only 9 month in use (maybe 100 hours) but am not sure how you tell if it was clogged? Is there anything else I should do or just replace the 2 filters, fill it up with fluid and see what happens when I run it?
No offense, but it looks like your new hose is heater hose, if it's not my apologies, but if it is, throw it away and start over. You need an oil rated hose that's good for probably 100 psi, even though it should never see that. Deere or CAT dealer will have it in bulk if you can't find it anywhere else. Also, you see the two hex head plugs, one on the bottom left, the other on the left side toward the frame rail? Remove those one at a time, pull the spring and spool or poppet out, clean, make sure they move freely and the springs look okay, then reinstall. One is the filter bypass which opens if the filter is plugged, the other regulates the head pressure for the hydraulic pump and opens to dump any excess oil back to the sump.
It isn't heater hose and is rated at 315psi. I looked at all the types NAPA had and this was the highest PSI that they said was the best application for the hydraulic low pressure that would still work with clamps. After changing them out a couple times I have this task down well I'll definitely take those two plugs out, one at a time and make sure they are clean and no broken springs. I hope the one next to the rail will come out with only about an inch space. There is another filter that is vertical just to the right of this picture. I should change that filter also...and is there any other plugs with springs to check? I really appreciate the reply as I was a bit lost on what to check before the finger crossing of running it again. Thanks, Tom
My bad, carry on then. The red cover threw me! The other one should be the transmission filter, the head is part of the case? It will have a bypass valve somewhere but if it isn't obvious I wouldn't worry about it.
Thanks a lot. Btw, if I win the lottery I want an LTX-3500.
If I win the lottery, I'll send you an LTX-4000, lol
I removed the lower port assembly (#12, #13, #15) and it looks fine but the port on the side was too close to the frame to remove part #21 fully. I left the filter cover off so I did get the part fully unscrewed but just wouldn't come out of the hole. I felt inside filter housing and the end of #19 but it seemed stuck. Should the spring have pushed out part #19 when I unscrewed part #21? What happens to the machine if this one port isn't working correctly and is either always open or always closed? Thanks, Tom
Yeah, should just pop right out, the spring pushes it up against the long stop pin. It moves in toward the spring when pressure rises, I *think* that's your supercharge pressure regulator spool there, so if it was stuck it would never bypass excess oil out to the transmission case and Robert's your uncle, you blow a hose eventually. Probably right at the point where you suck the boom all the way up and then the two stabilizers, forces a lot of oil out of those cylinders. Might have to unbolt it, undo all three hoses and shift it far enough to slip that plug/pin out of the way, hell take it out and to the work bench where you can see what you're doing? Might have to drain some oil first, not sure.
I have the system drained with the filter changes and delayed any refilling due to this issue. It was confusing trying to figure the logic of this spool but makes sense the way you explained it that 19 moves against the spring under pressure and 21 is a stop. Looks like next weekend I'll be getting filthy again. I did find parts 18 and 19 still available which is always a good thing with a 40 year old machine.. Thanks, Tom
Finally the rain stopped so I put an hour or so on the backhoe today and as I was moving the machine forward and pushing on a stump a loader hose blew right in my face I was literally blinded by the fluid which blew off my glasses and covered me from head to shoes. Not sure if this was a coincidence as the machine is old and hoses do this or I still have a problem where pressure is building too high? The blow was at the top of the vertical hose right below the 90 deg. fitting where it then runs along the loader rail towards the bucket. I'm not sure if I need to dig deeper into a root cause or just replace the hose and move on? The hoe and loader were running fine and it blew just as I was pushing with the loader on a large stump. When it blew the bucket was 4' off the ground and lifting the stump.
That wouldn't surprise me at all to blow the hose in those circumstances. You could post a picture of the part of the hose that blew if you want a second opinion, or suggestions of what to look for on other hoses to replace before they blow. Basically if the outer rubber is cracked and the steel braid is showing, and rusty, then it's weakened.
Already discussed on this thread, injection injuries can be fatal. Seems you dodged the bullet this time. I skimmed over this thread and I don't see any mention of what pressure your system is putting out. Unless you like getting drenched in oil and taking a shower with Dawn dish soap (it works on baby ducks) I would check that pressure ASAP.
This specific hose (left side loader) didn't look as bad as some others but the other side (right side loader) was replaced by the last owner. This machine has about half newer hoses and I capped and abandoned 3 that fed the welded shut backhoe bucket. This blow was a perfect diamond shaped split about an inch long with no rusted braiding. With regards to testing the pressure can I just get a 3000psi pressure gauge and screw it in the output line on the front near the pump (shown in the manual) and start it up to check it? The book says the high pressure is 2500psi. The Dawn does work except in the eyes and nose. Tomorrow I have to degrease and powerwash the machine before I can even start to get to the replacement hose and pressure testing. I'm doomed if the EPA monitors those who buy hydraulic fluid in bulk weekly to bath in and fertilize their property.
I would recommend getting a gauge that's 2X the max pressure. Even 6,000 psi would be better. Spikes in a hydraulic system happen quicker than what your gauge reads. If the manual tells you how to check the pressure, then do what it says.
I got the replacement hose and plan to put it on tomorrow. I also picked up a gauge and want to see what pressure I am running incase there is another problem causing the last 2 hose breaks and see if I'm good before getting back to moving dirt. I have read my manual but it goes way beyond just a basic pressure test and gets into analyzing the entire system with lots of specialized equipment which I can't do. I did locate the input and output pressure port next to the pump and wondered if I put the gauge on the output after getting back running again if that will tell me enough to at least know the pressure is not a culprit? I assume this will only tell me the pumps output and maybe a pressure problem could exist in or after loader or backhoe valves?
Pressure at the pump is theoretically as high as it can get, so that's the right place to start. There is a filter screen inside the stroke control on the pump, might be something to check and make sure it's not plugged up. That and the adjustment of the standby pressure should be in the manual.
Thanks Lantrax. Didn't get to that today but will tomorrow I hope. I was replacing the tie rod ends after the hose change and found one of my manuals had the wrong part number so I wasted time screwing with the wrong part...oh and the wife had a to-do list again I'm going to have to be careful ordering parts online due to the conflicting part numbers in the various manuals. Mine is an Army 410 which has an Army manual with a limited amount of information and I have the full JD manual for the 410 but the part numbers aren't all the same between the two...eg the tie rod ends were close but will never work on mine. As soon as I get it back together I'll see about that filter in the pump. I saw one showing it in a bottom port and one without it so need to research a bit more because the bottom plugs are not accessible without complete removal of the pump. The manuals show 3 or 4 different pumps used on the 410 so I need to see what I got. Mine pump is JD Green and looks much newer than most other stuff on the machine but it has no stroke control solenoid wires or manual de-stroke assembly.
Just a quick thought before I get ready for church, what ever gauge you have and no matter how good it is don't hold it with your hand. Since your still blowing up hoses, that gauge can do the same thing in your hand. And your wife's to-do list will have to wait until she brings you back from the hospital. Providing you can work with one hand... Be safe!
Good advice. I ended up doing everything I needed and hard pipe mounted the gauge to the pump and aimed the face where I can read it to the side.....but my darn starter malfunctioned and couldn't get the hoe started to see what it reads or how far it launches. Just had the starter rebuilt two month ago so I took it off and will take it back to the shop. The starter gear engages but it isn't turning. The manual says stand-by pressure on the pump should be 2300 to 2400psi @2500rpm and my gauge is 5000psi.